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20 days ago or so, I blogged about my frustration with there not being a versus race MMR for unranked and that it was hard to have efficient practice on ladder or unranked.
I wasn't trolling. I still have a bronze MMR in unranked. Undoubtedly, I have the lowest unranked MMR in NA. Some people said I shouldn't insta leave games in ladder and that I should just play all of the mu's, even though my vs z was horrible and it was the main reason I wasn't in GM.
Well, here's an update: stop posting advice. I chose to leave all of my ladder games that weren't versus Zerg. I artificially controlled my MMR to make sure it wouldn't go below Diamond, by playing just enough games that weren't against Zerg, to ensure this. I left my division several times, ending up in Diamond four times (took 13-16 games of not insta leaving to get promoted back to Masters before I'd start insta leaving, again).
Eventually, I ended up with an opening that was ridiculed by the "strategy forum's guru." While I don't particularly find it solid or fully understand it, myself, I got the impression that I could find a way to win enough games against Zerg at the MMR that I needed to.
So, I stopped insta leaving games, and gave it a go. I wasn't very confident in my versus T, either, so I was just hoping the "wheels wouldn't fall off" it, or else I'd start insta leaving games to practice versus T.
End result: things were able to work out and I ended up first in masters in NA, and I got promoted to GM at 102-50, 1433 points. Given that I had a few computer crashes and I'm kind of at a loss against proxy gates (be it zealots or fast stalkers), I was pleasantly surprised. Without a doubt, I owe this to not wasting my time practicing a mu that was already at GM level.
And for those wanting to talk about practice partners, even though I'm GM now, and I probably have fewer games played than anyone in GM... I still doubt I could even find a team (sponsored) worth joining.
I started playing SC 2 (WoL) around a year ago. I made masters in a month. It has taken me far, far longer than I wish it would have to make GM. Given that I insta leave a crazy amount, it's tough to say for sure how many games I've played. My account is at 5500. Around 4000, I'd guess. It's probably fewer than that, but I played beta, so that sounds fair to me.
I'd like to join a team, but SC 2 seems like a failure of an esport so far. WCS NA is the opposite of incentive to play. If it went away, completely, I couldn't care less. There are no local lans/tournaments. When I think of a NA pro, I think of a "personality" or someone that got lucky with networking in BW.
Getting GM feels like beating a game and having a sense of "I get to move on to another game now." It's unfortunate that SC 2 is still in a stage where it's not worth playing. I'd like to join a team, but you know, I'm sure a person with 15k games of SC 2 and is worse than me currently is more fit/deserving of said spot.
I don't really like anything about the scene, but I must admit that I do kinda enjoy playing SC 2 more than BW. I don't miss the repetitive actions. When you're probably still having to look forward to WCG, you know it's probably all for naught. Too bad.
 
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Canada1256 Posts
I feel the same way which is why I play Dota 2 instead lately, I think Blizzard is still missing the mark on keeping the middle level competitive (which Wc3 did well and BW had amazing customs to keep them playing). Hopefully it gets better in LotV but I have no reason to believe it will, they don't really seem to understand why Sc2 isn't very fun.
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If you got GM with a 102-50 record there are a lot of people (me included) who are GM and have less games then you.
But congrats on getting GM although getting GM is far from being seen as a pro, lots of bad players get GM and yeah just being GM doesn't mean a pro team will get you no matter how many games played you have.
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On July 11 2013 09:40 blade55555 wrote:
If you got GM with a 102-50 record there are a lot of people (me included) who are GM and have less games then you.
But congrats on getting GM although getting GM is far from being seen as a pro, lots of bad players get GM and yeah just being GM doesn't mean a pro team will get you no matter how many games played you have.
I'm talking about overall (it's an exaggeration still, though)... as that would be completely pointless if I meant how you're talking about. I mean, rootsage, a Korean pro gamer was in my division. Obviously he made it to GM in less games this season...
Edit: I was GM in beta, after 3 or 4 months, but I don't think that really counts...
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That is amazing that you made it to GM in beta given the fact it was introduced after the game was already out for some months.
The Fish is right I hope.
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Maybe he meant Hots beta?
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he obviously meant hots beta. He said he started playing Sc2 1 year ago, so he didnt play during WoL beta.
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On July 11 2013 10:21 senfkatze wrote:
he obviously meant hots beta. He said he started playing Sc2 1 year ago, so he didnt play during WoL beta.
Yeah, I never played WoL beta. I turned down a key. I wasn't that interested in playing SC 2. Starting up was an unexpected thing. I wish I would have played the beta though, so I would have known some of the new units. I have to think the person that told me that some people use the mothership in p vs z. I was losing to broodlords for ever, despite having all the expos. And I was informed you could merge dts into archons. Without eventually finding those two things out, prob diamond still.
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Michael, we were interested in picking you up in Clarity long ago  You just never followed up. Congrats on hitting GM though!
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wow congrats on getting GM! too bad you're not very much into the pro scene or what not though...
By the way, would you have any advice as for how to practice and improve? I myself have been wishing I could get into just masters league, but I can't seem to get there. Any tips on... like, HOW to actually improve? 
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On July 11 2013 11:28 chadissilent wrote:Michael, we were interested in picking you up in Clarity long ago You just never followed up. Congrats on hitting GM though!
Thanks, Chad. I'm a big fan of Clarity Gaming. I think your academy team, alone, would be favored over other NA pro teams. You guys are too good, and I think I had a playing with 10 FPS thing going on back then. Part of improving, at least for me, is simply feeling like a noob. Being very self-critical can help your improvement rate, but when it comes to actively trying to join teams or anything, you're left with timidity and no confidence.
And, if I were to ever feel good enough to give it a shot, odds are it would be a team more focused around other stuff; eg., what was his personality like in that 5 minute video... check out those twitter followers... you know, stuff that couldn't even get a starting-out-flash on a team, even if his potential was obvious.
Clarity fighting. If only teams like Clarity were the norm, instead of a unique exception.
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On July 11 2013 12:00 Sir.Phalanx wrote:wow congrats on getting GM! too bad you're not very much into the pro scene or what not though... By the way, would you have any advice as for how to practice and improve? I myself have been wishing I could get into just masters league, but I can't seem to get there. Any tips on... like, HOW to actually improve?
I don't think I have anything too earth shattering. I always got into games late, so if I wanted to catch up, it meant I had to put in at least 2x the games as the guys that started before me. There's no way around it. Everyone has a different content level. What is ok to one person might be a horrible atrocity to another. The person that is content ends up less driven to improve. Ie., if you think your macro is trash, you will be more serious about getting it to a satisfactory level.
Everyone wishes to be a complete player, but more times than not, a high level player might only excel at one facet of the game. For me, I've never been a micro player. I've been a player who has been appalled by his micro and who has tried to make it passable.
If you're not a high apm player, which I'm not, I think you have to look at hotkey setups as a mu in itself. Once I got to masters, the first thing I did was I stopped using the BW hotkeys. I customized everything. I treated it like it was a mu. Every day, I'd analyze it and try to improve it. I wanted everything to be logical, thus improving my efficiency. Also, since I'm a macro player, I wanted my nexi to have individual hotkeys for them, along with being in a group together, so I could "out chrono boost" others.
At the end of the day, you have to be doing something better than the other guy. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. While the goal is to eventually become a complete player, you really want to hone in on your strength(s) and accentuate it. If you're a macro player, floating 600 minerals might not be something you should view as acceptable. If you're a micro player, missing a force field shouldn't be acceptable to you. The more it bothers you, the faster you'll find yourself fixing it.
Also, different things work for different players. If you're creative and logical, it really doesn't matter much what anyone says in a strategy forum. Don't be afraid of trial and error. Normal doesn't matter. Others opinions pale in comparison to results. If it works, it works. Worry about figuring out the "why's" later. If it doesn't work, however... it's paramount that you limit the time you commit to running this experiment that gives you the same undesired result. Results speak for themselves. You simply need to get your mechanics to a level that leaves no room for doubt on whether your build needs to be changed or not.
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I wish a more thankful player got gm, but I suppose you put in the work.
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That's an obscene number of games for only having sc2 for a year. I've had WoL since release night, and I'm only at just over 3k career games (wol and hots combined). I considered myself a fairly active player through most of WoL, and the first few months of HotS (maintaining mid-high master since it came out). I dropped off over the past few months having graduating and starting a full time job.
Are you a college student or something? I dunno where you got the time to put in that many games in a year.
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sup playa, glad to see you still around playing!
I will never forget your 5 minute DT into 2base arbiters broodwar PvT build rofl.
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On July 11 2013 14:32 LuckyFool wrote:
sup playa, glad to see you still around playing!
I will never forget your 5 minute DT into 2base arbiters broodwar PvT build rofl.
Sups. I remember running into you on iccup, and you told me I should play SC 2 and why. Fast forward a few years, and to my knowledge, you retired/quit. Did you come back or are you going to?
That build was imbalanced on maps where a dt could get to their natural pretty quick. Arbiters were too strong, especially fast ones. Can't afford recall defense (100 turrets) 12 mins into a game, yet can't push against fast stasis. If it's any solace, I never felt good about the wins. I knew it was dirty and the mu wasn't that balanced.
As for getting in the games, the first couple of months I played, I was actually working a job where I was traveling around the US, in a hotel 4 days out of the week. I could only play a few days out of the week, when at home. I kinda feel like I have anxiety... so I never really had ladder anxiety: everything is relative, and when people aren't watching you do something and no one even knows who you are, it's pretty easy to hit the find match button. Perfectionism + relaxation = games. If you're a gamer, you find ways to play games.
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If you believe grandmasters means being good (or pro level to be more accurate), I have bad news for you. Even in terms of being a grandmaster there are huge skill differences in the sections. Everyone below top 150 is usually worse than high masters and only in there because they got promoted in the beginning of the season, at least on europe. Also if you feel like you played through it now, try to get grandmasters mid-season or on another server, I can guarantee its much harder ;-)
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On July 11 2013 17:40 NarutO wrote:
If you believe grandmasters means being good (or pro level to be more accurate), I have bad news for you. Even in terms of being a grandmaster there are huge skill differences in the sections. Everyone below top 150 is usually worse than high masters and only in there because they got promoted in the beginning of the season, at least on europe. Also if you feel like you played through it now, try to get grandmasters mid-season or on another server, I can guarantee its much harder ;-)
I don't really get this sentiment. I already beat players considered the best in NA, like Scarlet, when I was an average high masters player last season. To me, there's not a big difference between NA players. It has a lot more to do with strategies you fare well against and vice versa. SC 2 is nothing like BW to me when it comes to skill gaps. Most of the players in NA that are good now are players I was on the same level with in BW. It's not a matter of being good or not now. It's about common sense and determining whether it matters or not to be at that level in SC 2.
You're giving people too much credit in my opinion. Think back on BW and how good players were when the game was new. It was before my time, but everyone would say hey... these guys were C- noobs, in retrospect. Everyone can be beaten.
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On July 11 2013 18:04 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 17:40 NarutO wrote:
If you believe grandmasters means being good (or pro level to be more accurate), I have bad news for you. Even in terms of being a grandmaster there are huge skill differences in the sections. Everyone below top 150 is usually worse than high masters and only in there because they got promoted in the beginning of the season, at least on europe. Also if you feel like you played through it now, try to get grandmasters mid-season or on another server, I can guarantee its much harder ;-) I don't really get this sentiment. I already beat players considered the best in NA, like Scarlet, when I was an average high masters player last season. To me, there's not a big difference between NA players. It has a lot more to do with strategies you fare well against and vice versa. SC 2 is nothing like BW to me when it comes to skill gaps. Most of the players in NA that are good now are players I was on the same level with in BW. It's not a matter of being good or not now. It's about common sense and determining whether it matters or not to be at that level in SC 2. You're giving people too much credit in my opinion. Think back on BW and how good players were when the game was new. It was before my time, but everyone would say hey... these guys were C- noobs, in retrospect. Everyone can be beaten.
Personally I don't feel a lot of C- noobs I remember (if any?) are now good in Starcraft 2. The worst Starcraft players I remember that are kind of known were at least B or higher. Personally I feel NA and Europe are a big difference in itself. If its possible for you, I'd suggest playing on the Korean server as you will clearly see a difference in terms of skill and playstyle.
I agree that strategies and preference in terms of how to approach the game / playstyle can make you either lose to inferior or beat better players, personally as an example I think I would fare far better against a macro Protoss that is high level compared to a cheesy one.
Still, I am currently high masters with GM MMR and the difference when meeting a top 180 gm Protoss or a top 50 is insane, might be tough luck or a bad day on the side of the lower grandmaster, but I can clearly see better decisions, smarter movement and overall better gameplay.
While you said you already beat top NA players (and I would agree the very top of NA and the very top of EU is close in skill even though I'd favor EU) being 'good' doesn't mean being able to beat them once or twice, but also being consistent. I also understand when you talk about its a decision of wanting to be at that level. I personally have a job, I would love progaming but is it really worth it? You would have to give up so much time, friends, etc that its not worth it for me personally. I still like to play a lot and be good, but being professional takes up much time.
Still I believe if you want to be pro and as you pointed out feel like you've played through you ignore a lot of things, especially given the fact that from the level where you are no there are WORLDS between you and top-stars even in the foreign scene I suppose in terms of skill and consistency. Always remember that winning a tournamnet for example doesn't take a victory over one good player, but over multiple good players in boX series under pressure etc.
Get your ass up on KR or EU, try to stand your ground there and be consistent, I believe I don't give too much credit too anyone with that statement.
Edit: While I also agree that there are no skill gaps as large as in Broodwar, I think this is because Starcraft 2 overall is an easier game where its easier to lose to an inferior opponent simply due to strategy, but I feel its still hard enough and allows enough action to allow skill gaps. For reference;
High Master Terran very good
Amateuer-Semi-Pro Terran probably better
LucifroN worlds above both those guys
Korean Top STar Terran , once again worlds above LucifroN
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On July 11 2013 18:11 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 18:04 playa wrote:On July 11 2013 17:40 NarutO wrote:
If you believe grandmasters means being good (or pro level to be more accurate), I have bad news for you. Even in terms of being a grandmaster there are huge skill differences in the sections. Everyone below top 150 is usually worse than high masters and only in there because they got promoted in the beginning of the season, at least on europe. Also if you feel like you played through it now, try to get grandmasters mid-season or on another server, I can guarantee its much harder ;-) I don't really get this sentiment. I already beat players considered the best in NA, like Scarlet, when I was an average high masters player last season. To me, there's not a big difference between NA players. It has a lot more to do with strategies you fare well against and vice versa. SC 2 is nothing like BW to me when it comes to skill gaps. Most of the players in NA that are good now are players I was on the same level with in BW. It's not a matter of being good or not now. It's about common sense and determining whether it matters or not to be at that level in SC 2. You're giving people too much credit in my opinion. Think back on BW and how good players were when the game was new. It was before my time, but everyone would say hey... these guys were C- noobs, in retrospect. Everyone can be beaten. Personally I don't feel a lot of C- noobs I remember (if any?) are now good in Starcraft 2. The worst Starcraft players I remember that are kind of known were at least B or higher. Personally I feel NA and Europe are a big difference in itself. If its possible for you, I'd suggest playing on the Korean server as you will clearly see a difference in terms of skill and playstyle. I agree that strategies and preference in terms of how to approach the game / playstyle can make you either lose to inferior or beat better players, personally as an example I think I would fare far better against a macro Protoss that is high level compared to a cheesy one. Still, I am currently high masters with GM MMR and the difference when meeting a top 180 gm Protoss or a top 50 is insane, might be tough luck or a bad day on the side of the lower grandmaster, but I can clearly see better decisions, smarter movement and overall better gameplay. While you said you already beat top NA players (and I would agree the very top of NA and the very top of EU is close in skill even though I'd favor EU) being 'good' doesn't mean being able to beat them once or twice, but also being consistent. I also understand when you talk about its a decision of wanting to be at that level. I personally have a job, I would love progaming but is it really worth it? You would have to give up so much time, friends, etc that its not worth it for me personally. I still like to play a lot and be good, but being professional takes up much time. Still I believe if you want to be pro and as you pointed out feel like you've played through you ignore a lot of things, especially given the fact that from the level where you are no there are WORLDS between you and top-stars even in the foreign scene I suppose in terms of skill and consistency. Always remember that winning a tournamnet for example doesn't take a victory over one good player, but over multiple good players in boX series under pressure etc. Get your ass up on KR or EU, try to stand your ground there and be consistent, I believe I don't give too much credit too anyone with that statement. Edit: While I also agree that there are no skill gaps as large as in Broodwar, I think this is because Starcraft 2 overall is an easier game where its easier to lose to an inferior opponent simply due to strategy, but I feel its still hard enough and allows enough action to allow skill gaps. For reference; High Master Terran very good Amateuer-Semi-Pro Terran probably better LucifroN worlds above both those guys Korean Top STar Terran , once again worlds above LucifroN
I tried playing on KR, briefly, but I stopped because masters didn't seem any harder. I mean, players like Jaedong had the same MMR as players I was beating. It just kinda ruined the allure of playing there for me. The extra lat wasn't worth it, although I'm sure I'll play there more in the future. I played a lot on Korean servers in BW, so I was pretty shocked that the difference wasn't that big: an average Korean in BW seemed to be just as good as the best foreigners. Sase is a great player. He is GM KR. Is he winning many tournaments, if any, though? I'm a fan of Sase, but I'm merely trying to point out that the difference can't be that massive.
Perhaps you're more of a standard player. I just do my own thing: they didn't get to whatever MMR they're at by beating whatever I'm doing. I played a lot of BW, and I played against pretty much everyone -- be it Korean pros or non Korean ones. Going from BW to SC 2... you notice a skill difference, but it's so freaking minute in comparison to anything you'd see in BW, that it's kinda trivial at times. I'm a lot more afraid of facing a strategy that I'm lacking against atm than facing a 30th GM, compared to the 180th ranked GM that's going to do a strategy I'm not "GM level" against.
I just place a lot more importance on finding answers to strategies that are troubling me than anything else. To me, in SC 2, a good player is probably the one with the most answers to strategies and timings. Also, at least in masters, there's so many more Zerg players than other races. A player that's worse than you, overall, could still be ranked higher simply because their vs Zerg is better.
In WoL, even when in Masters, I still lost to everyone that did the 1-1-1 build. I would have had a better shot at taking games off the best player ever than beating a diamond 1-1-1 player. In SC 2, I get far more excited over beating a strategy that I was having trouble against than a player that is deemed to be better.
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