Flash's "Year of the Rapist" was unparalleled not only in its absolute scale (77% winrate, 70%+ winrate in each matchup, gigantic TvZ, TvP, and TvT winstreaks, 2 OSLs, 2 MSLs, all-killing SKT1, winning Proleague for KT, trashing Jaedong in 3 straight finals) but also in its variety.
Yes, you heard right. Variety.
It's been a staple of misguided, bitter SKT/JD fanslost soulslightwip/gg.nore certain other TL fanboys that Flash is boring.
They're wrong.
Flash was punished in 08-09 for being predictable. Lux and other Zergs figured out his turretless style in TvZ, and Stork and other Protosses exploited his passivity in TvP to steamroll him. Flash learned his lesson in response:
He was never going to get caught out of place by the metagame.
What is the metagame?
Consider a classic "strategic daisy chain": rock < paper < scissors < rock. Now replace that with three types of builds:
Greedy < Aggressive < Safe < Greedy.
This sort of "chaining" is well-known to most Starcraft players within games, and sets up most of the early-game dynamics for both BW and SC2. Examples.
Greedy > Safe
The Safe Player is investing in defense that he or she may not need, while the Greedy Player is taking an extra expansion, or making more harvesters. Later, let's say in the middle-game, both players' armies confront each other. The Greedy Player will simply have a larger army because he or she chose to start building an economy for a huge army while the Safe Player wasn't.
Aggressive > Greedy
The Aggressive Player uses a timing window to deal a serious blow to the Greedy Player before that later stage in the game. This type of play almost always immediately kills off the Greedy player, or can cripple them seriously. A good example of this is in TvP, when the Terran player sees the Protoss is double-expanding with very few gateways or tech. The Protoss is playing "greedy", and the Terran player goes 6-fact to attack the Protoss player before the benefits of that 3-base economy kicks in.
Safe > Aggressive
A "safe" play is to prepare yourself for possibilities that may arise by building defense of some sort. For example, let's say you're a Zerg player who has double-expanded, and you're against a Protoss player who has forge-expanded. You fly an overlord into his or her base and see 8 gateways, so you know the Protoss is going to produce a huge army to attack you. You would start playing "Safe" and building the appropriate defense to deal with a huge incoming attack, whether it be a thick sunken/spore/lurker field, or a huge flank of hydralisks and lurkers. You wouldn't play "Greedy", and just mass drones willy-nilly, or take two more bases.
But what if both players are blind and don't see each other's builds right away? Then it becomes a game of guesswork, of asking questions like:
While analyzing VODs, when Bisu meets a player of my skill level, he always plays safely. As a result, I completely excluded the possibilities of Dark Templars and proxy plays from my thoughts. I think it worked out well because Bisu did what I wanted him to do.
Flash was extremely adept at asking these questions, with the intuition of a seasoned poker player. He displayed flashes of this brilliance in his 2008 Bacchus OSL run:
Flash, then only 15 years old, used interviews before the OSL finals to talk about the "late game invincibility" of his anti-carrier TvP build, to goad Stork into playing greedily in the finals. Stork, never a strong Starcraft psychologist to begin with, obliged by going double nexus and even skipping the first zealot--the single greediest PvT opener possible--on Katrina, the map most friendly to Protoss air in the map pool.
Flash won Game 2 without losing a single unit:
But such egregious examples are not exactly reliable, and most Starcraft players have better mental strength than Stork did in 08. A much better example of Flash's mental edge comes about in his coup de grace series vs Jaedong in Shanghai.
I'll leave it to Kwark to explain why this is awesome:
For the last year Flash has been responding to mutalisks with a fast academy and second barracks to push out with some mnm just before mutalisks hatch, taking the initiative and forcing the Zerg to defend while base defenses are put in order. All Terrans have begun to emulate this.
This game, Jaedong got burrow research and some speedlings right before that timing when Flash would send out a small group of mnm, and set a trap outside of Flash's base. This was huge! If Flash played like normal Flash, then he'd walk over those those lings and lose his first group of mnm without achieving his goal of delaying the mutalisks, which would then arrive much faster than planned. It was actually the first time anyone tried this. It wasn't just a random burrow and hope, it was Jaedong working out a weakness in Flash's style and then saving it for a special situation in the finals. Absolutely incredible. His entire build was designed to be able to disable Flash's mutalisk 'defence' with zerglings, then muta harass Flash before he was ready, and have the hatchery count to follow through with zerglings for the win.
What made it more awesome is that Flash either sensed it or was aware that there was an exploitable weakness in his style and reverted to his older style against an opponent that he knew was good enough to exploit such weaknesses. So although we saw burrowed speedlings getting no action, there was a lot more going on there than that.
Game starts at 27m55s:
In the end, Flash's grasp of the metagame was such that he could consistently wrongfoot his opponents. This, combined with his excellent grasp of positioning and timings, led many to state that Flash had "maphack". I'm not talking about just fans or amateurs--even pros and seasoned SC players said this.
In one particularly notorious game, Flash blind countered a 2 hatch lurker rush (roughly analogous to a speed/bane all-in) without scans or a scout in his opponent's base until the lurkers showed up at his front door.
The action starts at 6m10s--Flash sees basically nothing, then decides to make 3 bunkers at his natural.
After the game, Chinese commentators were talking to F91, a Chinese pro Zerg player, who said flatly that if Flash was playing in a Chinese league he would be banned or at least investigated for maphacking.
Flash's response in the interview?
"I just felt something was up."
Flash got the two rules of pro-level Starcraft down:
1. The real resource at the very tip top level isn't money or talent, but practice time. 2. If you aren't pushing the metagame forward, other players are going to use the metagame to crush you.
In regards to #1, Flash was able to make his opponents consistently waste time practicing for the wrong things. Oov put it best here:
I think he has the ideal mindset as a Progamer that I've been thinking about. There aren't many players who set strategic moves, and in the case of Flash, I think he's looking about 10 games ahead
By deliberately widening the range of builds and styles he would play, and his choices of countermoves (would he out-greed? rush? hunker down and turtle?) he forced his opponents to play suboptimally and train suboptimally.
In regards to 2... well, when you look at Flash in contrast to players like Bisu, you'll see that Flash was much more avant-garde and varied in his choice of pre-set builds and in-game reactions. Flash was the one who invented the "14cc into anything from fast 5rax +1 to turtle and take the map" style of TvZ, which drastically pushed the TvZ metagame in his favor; his wide range of responses to Protoss greed also was the single reason why Protosses became afraid to 12nex versus him.
(FYI, that is the single reason why I disliked Bisu so much--the guy never pushed the metagame of Protoss forward--just look at how he used Forge-DT-Expo for an entire year in PvP--and I believe much of the reason why Protoss as a race suffered so much in Brood War was that after Savior Bisu got lazy in assuming full responsibility as his race's torchbearer.)
Great read and analysis, I think with a bit more effort this should be spotlighted in BW General.
That said Flash really did have anti-carrier strategies, but his coach told him they wouldn't work after being beaten constantly by Violet 2 hours before the games, and Flash decided to change his strategy. When he finally did perfect his anti-carrier strategy, he was unstoppable.
Funny about how one of the biggest misconceptions of all time became what he was most famous for, metagaming.
The two firebat rush versus zerg stands out in my memory during the "year of the rapist" period. He even beat Jaedong with it, the most aggressive zerg.
Flash is a naturally talented player but you shouldn't dismiss Bisu because of the builds he used. A Protoss doesn't have much leeway and opening build choices as Terran. In TvZ, Terran can open in a variety of different ways while Z has to adapt, and TvP, Terran can play strong FD style which punishes while retaining good economy. If Protoss in PvT doesn't open 1 gate core observ or 2 gate, he's in for a lot of shit.
In short: Terran race is much more forgiving when it comes to innovation and riskier openings. Protoss decided to open DT's? Oh, if it doesn't do any damage, he's pretty fucked
You can see some of this in his SC2 play as well. On the 7th game vs naniwa in MLG, he did proxy 11/11, reading that his opponent would open nexus first again.
When i saw my first few matches of Flash (past 2010) my first thought that materialized was "lol, everyone is bottlenecking themselves vs him". It was much later when i understood what were the exact events that caused this. Firstly i tried to pinpoint his brilliance in mechanics, when you hear: "there is guy in bw who wins almost all the time" you think he must be total mechanical monster micro/macro that owns everyone. But i failed to perceive it, i was semi-dissapointed, semi-curious of this psychological high ground that he stood on.
This fortunately gave me another reasons to understood more of BW competition, though i never really liked to focus on metagame, but rather focus on certain person-game/competition relationship and more mechanical aspects of the game (probably a shed from being a counter-strike player :f). Flash was a cookie-cutter villain/person to beat already when i arrived and start watching BW often, It is hard to understand the brilliance of Flash when you dont see the limits of the player as a human. There is a reason why a player with 300 apm can win vs player who has 450 apm, it is strategy, it is other mechanical perks like micro/multitasking. But to put it into wider, yet more twisted term it is creating your own game, your own version of competition, and be the one calling the shots, whether you are defending or attacking.
What makes BW special in that regard are aforementioned human limitations, like i said my first thought was "this guy probably owns in micro/macro left and right" coming from my SC2-fever. Philosophically:Understand your own limits, bypass it by gauging weaknesses of your opponent, turn a weakness into strenght, think of Savior vs Nada....
And yet not exatcly, Flash was a king of macro, BW was smiling from ear-to-ear shouting "I was figured out COMPLETELY, no more Saviors, no more Boxers, macro bitch!" Not really... what Kwark said opens your eyes, there are Boxer-like elements there, but you have to search for them in different places, turret placements, strategy choices, even simple interview all of that and way more for certain periods became a Flash tools.
The players bottlenecking themselves were for most part Flash creating his own image of a game, he understood well the poker side of BW, it is tempting to quick pool just as it is tempting to not do anything, and hope for better outcome this time. Everyone wanted the glory of beating big F in macro not by rolling the dice and this was again a result he wanted.
Isn't it ironic that Terran was a race made for both Boxer and Flash. There is certain privilige of this race that makes you think it is imbalanced, but just maybe it is Flash, no im sure it is just Flash, and even if there was imbalance he earned it.
(But he had to cockblock Stork in process )
Today im in writing mood maybe i will write something finally :f
On November 29 2012 19:43 GhostOwl wrote: Flash is a naturally talented player but you shouldn't dismiss Bisu because of the builds he used. A Protoss doesn't have much leeway and opening build choices as Terran. In TvZ, Terran can open in a variety of different ways while Z has to adapt, and TvP, Terran can play strong FD style which punishes while retaining good economy. If Protoss in PvT doesn't open 1 gate core observ or 2 gate, he's in for a lot of shit.
In short: Terran race is much more forgiving when it comes to innovation and riskier openings. Protoss decided to open DT's? Oh, if it doesn't do any damage, he's pretty fucked
Nal_Ra begs to differ.
Also, there are a really wide range of builds and timings a toss can do in both PvT and PvZ.
PvT: 12nex; 14nex; 1gate zeal core; 1 gate core; 1 gate core obs; 1 gate core reaver; 2 gate obs; 10/15 powergoon. PvZ: nex --> gate; nex/forge; forge/nexus; gate/nexus... and that's all before gas timings and figuring out how many stargates and gateways to get before templar tech. And let's not forget sair/reaver either.
Bisu was an S-class PvZ player precisely because his S+ class harass served as a cushion for his merely A-class game sense. The Protoss with the best game sense in the PvZ matchup would probably be free.
But in PvT and PvP, Bisu had both less harass opportunities and less skill overall--especially in PvT. I have never seen Bisu win a long, macro-oriented PvT without a huge early game advantage. And in PvP, too, Bisu was stagnant; just watch his game vs Stats on Polaris Rhapsody, where he uses the same tired Forge-DT-Expo build that gets cockblocked by a perfectly timed Expo-Obs build.
FYI, that is the single reason why I disliked Bisu so much--the guy never pushed the metagame of Protoss forward
Are you kidding me? Bisu didn't push the Protoss "metagame" forward? Bisu completely redefined how Protoss play PvZ, an entire matchup.
Bisu did that in 2007, but
after Savior Bisu got lazy in assuming full responsibility as his race's torchbearer.
Bisu pushed the metagame forward for one matchup for one year. Flash continually innovated TvZ, TvT, and TvP builds (1-rax expo TvP; mech transitions TvZ) to their full potential over three years.
This isn't to say that Bisu wasn't a good player--Bisu was just less innovative than he should have been. After all, he was the best Protoss in Brood War--had he been as creative and deep as Flash, I seriously doubt that Protoss would have spent the final 4 years of BW in the shitty predicament that it did.
I have a lot of trouble remembering specific games from BW but Flash v Stork on Katrina definitely stands out in my memory... Awesome write-up, looking forward to part 3.
Still I have to disagree with your conclusion. Judging that work surpasses talent based on results is a common mistake. Flash is talented, he was born with that special thing that makes him different. His work ethic is what allowed him to showcase that.
after Savior Bisu got lazy in assuming full responsibility as his race's torchbearer.
Bisu pushed the metagame forward for one matchup for one year. Flash continually innovated TvZ, TvT, and TvP builds (1-rax expo TvP; mech transitions TvZ) to their full potential over three years.
This isn't to say that Bisu wasn't a good player--Bisu was just less innovative than he should have been. After all, he was the best Protoss in Brood War--had he been as creative and deep as Flash, I seriously doubt that Protoss would have spent the final 4 years of BW in the shitty predicament that it did.
He also popularized the speed zeal/sair opening that he used in 2011 and his arbiter-centric plays on otherwise Carrier-frielndly maps like Katrina in response to the goliath/upgrade-heavy Flash build...
On top of that, did you REALLY have to call this blog "The Last Bonjwa" ??? Completely incorrect -_-;
FYI, that is the single reason why I disliked Bisu so much--the guy never pushed the metagame of Protoss forward
Are you kidding me? Bisu didn't push the Protoss "metagame" forward? Bisu completely redefined how Protoss play PvZ, an entire matchup.
Bisu did that in 2007, but
after Savior Bisu got lazy in assuming full responsibility as his race's torchbearer.
Bisu pushed the metagame forward for one matchup for one year. Flash continually innovated TvZ, TvT, and TvP builds (1-rax expo TvP; mech transitions TvZ) to their full potential over three years.
This isn't to say that Bisu wasn't a good player--Bisu was just less innovative than he should have been. After all, he was the best Protoss in Brood War--had he been as creative and deep as Flash, I seriously doubt that Protoss would have spent the final 4 years of BW in the shitty predicament that it did.
He also popularized the speed zeal/sair opening that he used in 2011 and his arbiter-centric plays on otherwise Carrier-frielndly maps like Katrina in response to the goliath/upgrade-heavy Flash build...
On top of that, did you REALLY have to call this blog "The Last Bonjwa" ??? Completely incorrect -_-;
Yeah didn't really understand that part.
Bisu was also the biggest and most consistent winner in Team-leagues in the last few years (3 All-kills in a row) and SKTs most valuable asset, he even beat Flash when it mattered most in Winners and Proleague finals.. He didn't qualify for individual leagues because of his poor defense against cheese, not because he couldn't innovate. He didn't even need to innovate when he could crush Jaedong with standard play, unlike Flash who's only possible way of beating Jaedong in a BoX was to do some crazy wtf builds, which is what he did.
Jaedong, Stork, Jangbi were also quite the innovators. Jaedongs ability to creatively counter builds on the fly was amazing, and Stork has a winning record against top-tier pros with his insane ability to always create new builds.
The difference was that Flash perfected the least developed aspect of BW, metagame (as in not strategy, but poker-esque mind gaming). This was what gave him the biggest edge over top-tier opponents. His macro had nothing to do with how many scvs he made, and how fast he clicked on buildings, it was his deductive reasoning on determining how many shortcuts he could take so he would always have biggest army possible deduced from metagame, there were a few games where this style of play cost him games.
^ Although I think the OP covered this quite well.
FYI, that is the single reason why I disliked Bisu so much--the guy never pushed the metagame of Protoss forward
Are you kidding me? Bisu didn't push the Protoss "metagame" forward? Bisu completely redefined how Protoss play PvZ, an entire matchup.
Bisu did that in 2007, but
after Savior Bisu got lazy in assuming full responsibility as his race's torchbearer.
Bisu pushed the metagame forward for one matchup for one year. Flash continually innovated TvZ, TvT, and TvP builds (1-rax expo TvP; mech transitions TvZ) to their full potential over three years.
This isn't to say that Bisu wasn't a good player--Bisu was just less innovative than he should have been. After all, he was the best Protoss in Brood War--had he been as creative and deep as Flash, I seriously doubt that Protoss would have spent the final 4 years of BW in the shitty predicament that it did.
He also popularized the speed zeal/sair opening that he used in 2011 and his arbiter-centric plays on otherwise Carrier-frielndly maps like Katrina in response to the goliath/upgrade-heavy Flash build...
On top of that, did you REALLY have to call this blog "The Last Bonjwa" ??? Completely incorrect -_-;
Yeah didn't really understand that part.
Bisu was also the biggest winner in Proleague in the last couple years. He didn't qualify for individual leagues because of his poor defense against cheese, not because he couldn't innovate. He didn't even need to innovate when he could crush Jaedong with standard play.
Jaedong, Stork, Jangbi were also quite the innovators. Jaedongs ability to creatively counter builds on the fly was amazing, and Stork has a winning record against top-tier pros with his insane ability to always create new builds.
The difference was that Flash perfected the least developed aspect of BW, metagame (as in not strategy, but poker-esque mind gaming). This was what gave him the biggest edge over top-tier opponents. His macro had nothing to do with how many scvs he made, and how fast he clicked on buildings, it was his deductive reasoning on determining how many shortcuts he could take so he would always have biggest army possible deduced from metagame, there were a few games where this style of play cost him games.
^ Although I think the OP covered this quite well.
He really was the last bonjwa in BW though IMO.
I didn't argue with the initial statement, I argued with the latter:
"After all, he was the best Protoss in Brood War--had he been as creative and deep as Flash..."
He left his 'metagame' platform behind.
But that is still secondary to his misuse of Bonjwa =_=
I agree with this post. I've never thought that Flash played boring. The only thing that could be considered boring is perhaps if you're a fan of his opponents and don't like them to lose.
Although that last series vs Fantasy was a bit sad to watch.
On November 30 2012 01:56 neptunusfisk wrote: I agree with this post. I've never thought that Flash played boring. The only thing that could be considered boring is perhaps if you're a fan of his opponents and don't like them to lose.
Although that last series vs Fantasy was a bit sad to watch.
I actually do think Flash played boring. He just had a boring playstyle, in the same way that watching brilliant moves in chess can still be boring. He was a brilliant mastermind, but his brilliance could never really be showcased on TV, it was always outside of the game.
There are a couple games like his game against Soulkeys 2 hatch lurker which was amazing and basically showed he could play like Boxer if he wanted, but 99% of his games were simply about winning in the most efficient way possible. So all his games seemed like turtle into a-move stomp when there was really a lot more going on behind the scenes.
He would always draw out unimportant or unprepared games as long as he possibly could to maximise his chances of winning, and then in prepared games he would use unstoppable timing attacks that his opponent simply had no hope of defending and made the grand finals always completely underwhelming. Which is the opposite of what you want, you want short bracket games, and long finals games.
On November 30 2012 01:56 neptunusfisk wrote: I agree with this post. I've never thought that Flash played boring. The only thing that could be considered boring is perhaps if you're a fan of his opponents and don't like them to lose.
Although that last series vs Fantasy was a bit sad to watch.
I actually do think Flash played boring. He just had a boring playstyle, in the same way that watching brilliant moves in chess can still be boring. He was a brilliant mastermind, but his brilliance could never really be showcased on TV, it was always outside of the game.
There are a couple games like his game against Soulkeys 2 hatch lurker which was amazing and basically showed he could play like Boxer if he wanted, but 99% of his games were simply about winning in the most efficient way possible. So all his games seemed like turtle into a-move stomp when there was really a lot more going on behind the scenes.
He would always draw out unimportant or unprepared games as long as he possibly could to maximise his chances of winning, and then in prepared games he would use unstoppable timing attacks that his opponent simply had no hope of defending and made the grand finals always completely underwhelming. Which is the opposite of what you want, you want short bracket games, and long finals games.
I guess this is where I differ--I found Flash's hyper-efficient playstyle vastly more entertaining than players who played to be "interesting"... in the same way that I enjoy watching Tim Duncan or Kobe Bryant play more than the Harlem Globetrotters.
EDIT: Also Flash didn't draw out unimportant or unprepared games as long as possible. He drew out games where he was losing as long as possible (see his TvTs vs FBH, for example.) Those two are different. In "random" matches where he got a sollid early advantage, he was just as much a fan of ending things quickly as the next player; perhaps even more so, given that his wrists were in constant pain up until late in his BW career.
There's no doubt that Flash was the best BW player of all time. But I still think the finals between him and JD that year would have been a lot closer if the maps didn't suck so much for ZvT. Polaris Rhapsody, Eye of the Storm, and Odd-Eye SUCK.
On November 30 2012 03:52 Ideas wrote: There's no doubt that Flash was the best BW player of all time. But I still think the finals between him and JD that year would have been a lot closer if the maps didn't suck so much for ZvT. Polaris Rhapsody, Eye of the Storm, and Odd-Eye SUCK.
Odd-eye is a great map for Z (securing double gas 3rd = autowin for zerg) and Eots is not that bad for Z, Jaedong simply got outplayed on both maps. Jaedong dominated Flash on that map the previous time, it looked close, but it really wasn't. In the other series, the map pool was heavily in zergs favor, flight zergliner, Jaedong won on polaris, still suffered the same fate.
On November 30 2012 01:56 neptunusfisk wrote: I agree with this post. I've never thought that Flash played boring. The only thing that could be considered boring is perhaps if you're a fan of his opponents and don't like them to lose.
Although that last series vs Fantasy was a bit sad to watch.
I actually do think Flash played boring. He just had a boring playstyle, in the same way that watching brilliant moves in chess can still be boring. He was a brilliant mastermind, but his brilliance could never really be showcased on TV, it was always outside of the game.
There are a couple games like his game against Soulkeys 2 hatch lurker which was amazing and basically showed he could play like Boxer if he wanted, but 99% of his games were simply about winning in the most efficient way possible. So all his games seemed like turtle into a-move stomp when there was really a lot more going on behind the scenes.
He would always draw out unimportant or unprepared games as long as he possibly could to maximise his chances of winning, and then in prepared games he would use unstoppable timing attacks that his opponent simply had no hope of defending and made the grand finals always completely underwhelming. Which is the opposite of what you want, you want short bracket games, and long finals games.
I guess this is where I differ--I found Flash's hyper-efficient playstyle vastly more entertaining than players who played to be "interesting"... in the same way that I enjoy watching Tim Duncan or Kobe Bryant play more than the Harlem Globetrotters.
EDIT: Also Flash didn't draw out unimportant or unprepared games as long as possible. He drew out games where he was losing as long as possible (see his TvTs vs FBH, for example.) Those two are different. In "random" matches where he got a sollid early advantage, he was just as much a fan of ending things quickly as the next player; perhaps even more so, given that his wrists were in constant pain up until late in his BW career.
See any of Flash's split map games vs Protoss or against Zero on Polaris where he literally turtles with turrets/mines and tanks all the way to the Zergs main. He is the most patient player of all time although that is part of why he is so great.
Flash's a bit like Darth Vader; you don't like him because he does great stuff, it's more because he's totally cool and unbeatable. To go up against him is heroic, and in the end, you're greatful that he was in the movie because it made great action.
Man, amazing write-up. I miss BW, been playing it again at school and having tons of fun with it. But idk I don't think there's enough of a community to warrant me picking it up again
Flash was better than Bisu at playing against specific opponents, and his varied strategies were exactly that - builds tailored not for matchups and maps, but very specific players doing specific things in very specific situations. There is no way you can compare the creativity of those two side to side - they were both a genius in their own right.
You should probably leave the Bisu stuff out of your post as it detracts from the person/issue you're actually writing about, and really just comes across as your opinion of Bisu rather than an analysis of play/style/meta like the rest of your piece.
And Jealous, it's not a misuse of Bonjwa at all... Flash definitely fits the bill.
On November 29 2012 17:18 Shady Sands wrote: FYI, that is the single reason why I disliked Bisu so much--the guy never pushed the metagame of Protoss forward
It's ironic that you point out people's mischaracterizations of Flash, and then proceed with your own. A full year of DT double? A class sense??
The claim that Free has better PvZ sense .. just compare the winrates. And if you try to say it's because of Bisu's harass, nope. Even Bisu recently (2011 or so) stated in an interview that he doesn't harass a lot anymore. Stork has also gone out to say that Bisu's game sense (not harassment) in PvZ was incredible, and free also admitted that Bisu's PvZ is better. Bisu is THE most innovative PvZ player, and he's done almost every single PvZ build out there.
In PvP, you happen to pick out around the time when Bisu was slumping the hardest, great .. I can do the same for Flash and blame him for being stagnant. Let's not forget that Bisu holds the highest PvP current and peak ELO, the matchup most like Poker since most builds can be so hard-counter. Bisu doesn't have the benefit of TvT where builds don't almost entirely decide the outcome (he's still made incredible comebacks though).
And PvT, yea he's weak there and he himself has admitted it. But your mischaracterization, again ... you must've confused "all Terrans" with "Flash". There are a plethora of macro games where Bisu has beaten top level Terrans without some massive early-game advantage. And anyways, who the hell looked to Bisu for PvT anyways? That was Stork's role and everyone looked to him not Bisu lol.
It's clear you know what you're talking about with Flash, so just stick with that. Like said above, you talking about Bisu just detracts from your article and casts doubts on your knowledge.
You should probably leave the Bisu stuff out of your post as it detracts from the person/issue you're actually writing about, and really just comes across as your opinion of Bisu rather than an analysis of play/style/meta like the rest of your piece.
And Jealous, it's not a misuse of Bonjwa at all... Flash definitely fits the bill.
Flash is God. Boxer, Oov, Nada, and Savior are Bonjwa. That is indisputable fact.
Flash can't be Bonjwa for many reasons but I'll list 2 of the major ones:
1.The Korean scene did not acknowledge him as such and never did, only in speculation.
2. He had rivals close to his skill level that gave him too much trouble during what would otherwise be his reign, with them taking OSL/MSL titles more consistently than during the previous Bonjwa (iirc).
This game, Jaedong got burrow research and some speedlings right before that timing when Flash would send out a small group of mnm, and set a trap outside of Flash's base. This was huge! If Flash played like normal Flash, then he'd walk over those those lings and lose his first group of mnm without achieving his goal of delaying the mutalisks, which would then arrive much faster than planned. It was actually the first time anyone tried this. It wasn't just a random burrow and hope, it was Jaedong working out a weakness in Flash's style and then saving it for a special situation in the finals. Absolutely incredible. His entire build was designed to be able to disable Flash's mutalisk 'defence' with zerglings, then muta harass Flash before he was ready, and have the hatchery count to follow through with zerglings for the win.
What made it more awesome is that Flash either sensed it or was aware that there was an exploitable weakness in his style and reverted to his older style against an opponent that he knew was good enough to exploit such weaknesses. So although we saw burrowed speedlings getting no action, there was a lot more going on there than that.
Oh my god, I remember that game. I remember it so well.
I both hated and admired Flash for taking apart Jaedong's burrowed zergling trap like that.
I'll say this for Flash, he figured out how to win all the mindgames.
Damn you, Flash. If it weren't for you, Jaedong would have been the Last Bonjwa.
On November 30 2012 08:41 Jealous wrote: Flash can't be Bonjwa for many reasons but I'll list 2 of the major ones:
1.The Korean scene did not acknowledge him as such and never did, only in speculation.
2. He had rivals close to his skill level that gave him too much trouble during what would otherwise be his reign, with them taking OSL/MSL titles more consistently than during the previous Bonjwa (iirc).
Q With this victory, you’ve risen to Bonjwa status. A Receiving a title like that is quite an honor but compared to the players who rose to that level before, I think I’m still lacking. Though it’s nice if fans call me that, I still think “Ultimate Weapon” is better and more appropriate for me right now.
On November 30 2012 08:41 Jealous wrote: Flash can't be Bonjwa for many reasons but I'll list 2 of the major ones:
1.The Korean scene did not acknowledge him as such and never did, only in speculation.
2. He had rivals close to his skill level that gave him too much trouble during what would otherwise be his reign, with them taking OSL/MSL titles more consistently than during the previous Bonjwa (iirc).
Q With this victory, you’ve risen to Bonjwa status. A Receiving a title like that is quite an honor but compared to the players who rose to that level before, I think I’m still lacking. Though it’s nice if fans call me that, I still think “Ultimate Weapon” is better and more appropriate for me right now.
On November 30 2012 08:41 Jealous wrote: Flash can't be Bonjwa for many reasons but I'll list 2 of the major ones:
1.The Korean scene did not acknowledge him as such and never did, only in speculation.
2. He had rivals close to his skill level that gave him too much trouble during what would otherwise be his reign, with them taking OSL/MSL titles more consistently than during the previous Bonjwa (iirc).
Q With this victory, you’ve risen to Bonjwa status. A Receiving a title like that is quite an honor but compared to the players who rose to that level before, I think I’m still lacking. Though it’s nice if fans call me that, I still think “Ultimate Weapon” is better and more appropriate for me right now.
On November 30 2012 08:31 ArvickHero wrote: The claim that Free has better PvZ sense .. just compare the winrates. And if you try to say it's because of Bisu's harass, nope. Even Bisu recently (2011 or so) stated in an interview that he doesn't harass a lot anymore. Stork has also gone out to say that Bisu's game sense (not harassment) in PvZ was incredible, and free also admitted that Bisu's PvZ is better. Bisu is THE most innovative PvZ player, and he's done almost every single PvZ build out there.
I'll give you this. Forgot that he invented speedzeal/sair too, although the original point about the metagame thing was that Bisu pretty much invented one sole way to play PvZ--harassment and disruption--and never deviated from that path. When he tried playing other styles (his 5gate goon hanbang against some random Zerg or his 2base into double expansion vs hyvaa) he was pretty inconsistent.
In PvP, you happen to pick out around the time when Bisu was slumping the hardest, great .. I can do the same for Flash and blame him for being stagnant. Let's not forget that Bisu holds the highest PvP current and peak ELO, the matchup most like Poker since most builds can be so hard-counter. Bisu doesn't have the benefit of TvT where builds don't almost entirely decide the outcome (he's still made incredible comebacks though).
More than anyone, Bisu rarely had to face tough PvP opponents. Did he have to play Horang2 in Bo3 and Bo5 series on the same day, or play him first in set matches and then in ace? Flash did the former with Fantasy, and did the latter with Skyhigh. Bisu's ELO is pretty badly inflated by the fact that he never had to face tough opponents in the out-rounds of individual leagues--instead, he got to face opponents cherry-picked by the SKT1 coaching staff and whose practice time was diluted by having to prep against Fantasy and Best.
And PvT, yea he's weak there and he himself has admitted it. But your mischaracterization, again ... you must've confused "all Terrans" with "Flash". There are a plethora of macro games where Bisu has beaten top level Terrans without some massive early-game advantage. And anyways, who the hell looked to Bisu for PvT anyways? That was Stork's role and everyone looked to him not Bisu lol.
Again, refer to the Proleague vs Indiv League point: Bisu is distinct from Jaedong or even Stork in that he never made it deep into an individual league after early 2009. His PvT belies this point because when he played PvT in proleague, the SKT1 coaches made sure he was playing on massively P>T maps (Medusa, Aztec, Neo Chain Reaction.) You can't really use that as proof that Bisu's solid macro games mean he wasn't playing PvT badly.
But I will admit that Bisu never became the torchbearer there. And that's just as bad, because Stork had way too much self-doubt to actually be one of the guys that takes unnecessary risks just to expand the range of his race's metagame possibilities. I firmly believe Bisu had that sort of mental strength, but for whatever reason--maybe the conservative SKT1 practice culture? Although Oov was the original inventor of metagame oriented play so I doubt it--Bisu never felt comfortable being an innovator there.
For a while, I thought Kal could be the one to bear the PvT torch, but he seemed to play himself into a corner all the time whenever he faced S-class TvP (Flash, and later Fantasy.)
One of my deepest regrets about BW ending so soon is that Protosses in the PvT matchup never got to tap into their race's full potential. Other than Pusan popularizing Arbiters in 2005 and Stork's perfection of reaver-->carrier, no Toss ever really innovated enough to truly shift the matchup metagame in P's favor, which is too bad, really.
It's clear you know what you're talking about with Flash, so just stick with that. Like said above, you talking about Bisu just detracts from your article and casts doubts on your knowledge.
On November 30 2012 08:41 Jealous wrote: Flash can't be Bonjwa for many reasons but I'll list 2 of the major ones:
1.The Korean scene did not acknowledge him as such and never did, only in speculation.
2. He had rivals close to his skill level that gave him too much trouble during what would otherwise be his reign, with them taking OSL/MSL titles more consistently than during the previous Bonjwa (iirc).
Q With this victory, you’ve risen to Bonjwa status. A Receiving a title like that is quite an honor but compared to the players who rose to that level before, I think I’m still lacking. Though it’s nice if fans call me that, I still think “Ultimate Weapon” is better and more appropriate for me right now.
Although I still stand by the logic that he should be referred to as God and not Bonjwa, I have no option but to retract my statement of him NOT being regarded as Bonjwa by the Korean scene, because that article's translation seemed to directly assert this fact. I would like to note that it does seem that while there is no debate about the previous Bonjwa titles (probably because they were handed post-dominanace for all but Savior), there always seemed to be debate about Flash taking the title. That's might just be on TL and through choice netizen translations though.
Wait, @ your response to ArvickHero, did you really just say Bisu never had to face tough PvP opponents?!?
Ignoring the obvious exclusion of Stork in their finals matchES... ClubDay MSL and the GOM Classic S2, in the latter two he had to face JangBi in back-to-back finals and Free in a Bo5 before that (this was a great series imo, free's control is well-suited for PvP). Knocking him for not having tough PvP opponents, if you had already considered these facts, raises the questions: who IS a tough opponent then, and how did Bisu avoid ever playing them a decent number of times (PL or otherwise)?
On November 30 2012 11:30 Jealous wrote: Wait, @ your response to ArvickHero, did you really just say Bisu never had to face tough PvP opponents?!?
Ignoring the obvious exclusion of Stork in their finals match, you seem to forget ClubDay MSL and the GOM Classic S2, where he had to face JangBi in back-to-back finals and Free in a Bo5 before that (this was a great series imo, free's control is well-suited for PvP). Knocking him for not having tough PvP opponents, if you had already considered these facts, raises the questions: who IS a tough opponent then, and how did Bisu avoid ever playing them a decent number of times (PL or otherwise)?
Bisu fought Stork in 2007; Clubday was in 2008; GOM Classic was in early 09. I was talking about early 09 and after.
On November 30 2012 11:30 Jealous wrote: Wait, @ your response to ArvickHero, did you really just say Bisu never had to face tough PvP opponents?!?
Ignoring the obvious exclusion of Stork in their finals match, you seem to forget ClubDay MSL and the GOM Classic S2, where he had to face JangBi in back-to-back finals and Free in a Bo5 before that (this was a great series imo, free's control is well-suited for PvP). Knocking him for not having tough PvP opponents, if you had already considered these facts, raises the questions: who IS a tough opponent then, and how did Bisu avoid ever playing them a decent number of times (PL or otherwise)?
Bisu fought Stork in 2007; Clubday was in 2008; GOM Classic was in early 09. I was talking about early 09 and after.
WCG 2009?
It's true that since then he lost to Stork 5 straight, and had a less stellar record in PvP in general, but that doesn't detract from his title of being the best in it, does it? He won possibly the most important PvP matches in the latter half of BW's time as a televised game, unlike most other tosses (obviously). The fact that there were very few notable PvP series after the age of dragons shouldn't be used against him as if it were his choice or something.
More than anyone, Bisu never had to face tough PvP opponents. Did he have to play Horang2 in Bo3 and Bo5 series on the same day, or play him first in set matches and then in ace? Flash did the former with Fantasy, and did the latter with Skyhigh. Bisu's ELO is pretty badly inflated by the fact that he never had to face tough opponents in the out-rounds of individual leagues--instead, he got to face opponents cherry-picked by the SKT1 coaching staff and whose practice time was diluted by having to prep against Fantasy and Best.
One of Bisu's Peak ELO was from the Clubday MSL and Gom Season 2, where he defeated Jangbi twice in two different Bo5s, not to mention playing many other notable Protoss players of the time, such as Stork and Free. Bisu's first period of dominance had him beating Stork in a Bo5 to win the MSL. Bisu was an absolute Monster PvP during those time periods. You sure like to make up shit about Bisu.
Oh, apparently your response to counter evidence is "Well, I'm pretending that time period didn't exist!" Nevermind then.
Great article and agreed on all points. Flash also attracted me because of his formidability in all aspects, his perfectionist attention to detail and his willingness and stamina to make sure he was planning and practising enough.
On November 30 2012 11:40 1ntrigue wrote: Great article and agreed on all points. Flash also attracted me because of his formidability in all aspects, his perfectionist attention to detail and his willingness and stamina to make sure he was planning and practising enough.
What happened to lolwip anyway?
permabanned, came back saying he doesn't care anymore now that the proscene is done, got permabanned again.
On November 30 2012 08:41 Jealous wrote: Flash can't be Bonjwa for many reasons but I'll list 2 of the major ones:
1.The Korean scene did not acknowledge him as such and never did, only in speculation.
2. He had rivals close to his skill level that gave him too much trouble during what would otherwise be his reign, with them taking OSL/MSL titles more consistently than during the previous Bonjwa (iirc).
Q With this victory, you’ve risen to Bonjwa status. A Receiving a title like that is quite an honor but compared to the players who rose to that level before, I think I’m still lacking. Though it’s nice if fans call me that, I still think “Ultimate Weapon” is better and more appropriate for me right now.
Although I still stand by the logic that he should be referred to as God and not Bonjwa, I have no option but to retract my statement of him NOT being regarded as Bonjwa by the Korean scene, because that article's translation seemed to directly assert this fact. I would like to note that it does seem that while there is no debate about the previous Bonjwa titles (probably because they were handed post-dominanace for all but Savior), there always seemed to be debate about Flash taking the title. That's might just be on TL and through choice netizen translations though.
This makes zero sense. You're saying Flash is not Bonjwa because there is debate about Flash being bonjwa--debate which you are stirring up? So since you disbelieve Flash is Bonjwa then Flash is not Bonjwa? dafuq?
On November 30 2012 11:40 1ntrigue wrote: Great article and agreed on all points. Flash also attracted me because of his formidability in all aspects, his perfectionist attention to detail and his willingness and stamina to make sure he was planning and practising enough.
What happened to lolwip anyway?
permabanned, came back saying he doesn't care anymore now that the proscene is done, got permabanned again.
Writing this article knowing Wippy has the chance of reading it and being unable to post was quite amusing
On November 30 2012 08:41 Jealous wrote: Flash can't be Bonjwa for many reasons but I'll list 2 of the major ones:
1.The Korean scene did not acknowledge him as such and never did, only in speculation.
2. He had rivals close to his skill level that gave him too much trouble during what would otherwise be his reign, with them taking OSL/MSL titles more consistently than during the previous Bonjwa (iirc).
Q With this victory, you’ve risen to Bonjwa status. A Receiving a title like that is quite an honor but compared to the players who rose to that level before, I think I’m still lacking. Though it’s nice if fans call me that, I still think “Ultimate Weapon” is better and more appropriate for me right now.
Although I still stand by the logic that he should be referred to as God and not Bonjwa, I have no option but to retract my statement of him NOT being regarded as Bonjwa by the Korean scene, because that article's translation seemed to directly assert this fact. I would like to note that it does seem that while there is no debate about the previous Bonjwa titles (probably because they were handed post-dominanace for all but Savior), there always seemed to be debate about Flash taking the title. That's might just be on TL and through choice netizen translations though.
This makes zero sense. You're saying Flash is not Bonjwa because there is debate about Flash being bonjwa--debate which you are stirring up? So since you disbelieve Flash is Bonjwa then Flash is not Bonjwa? dafuq?
Wow chill bro ^^ I obviously meant not including myself, and a few years ago when the debate was still around. The entire concept of Bonjwa made it seem like it could only be granted when there was no doubt at all about it - so people doubting back then (and not just me, haha) would by definition not make him Bonjwa.
Anyways, it's time to drop this line of conversation. I already said I had no choice but to agree - why would you try to stir up more shit? I guess it should have been expected considering you just HAD to have me post "i was wrong u were rite, i am dumb u r smart" after I had pretty much expressed non-argument to ore0z's post. You don't have to have the last word to win ya know ^^;
On November 30 2012 08:41 Jealous wrote: Flash can't be Bonjwa for many reasons but I'll list 2 of the major ones:
1.The Korean scene did not acknowledge him as such and never did, only in speculation.
2. He had rivals close to his skill level that gave him too much trouble during what would otherwise be his reign, with them taking OSL/MSL titles more consistently than during the previous Bonjwa (iirc).
Q With this victory, you’ve risen to Bonjwa status. A Receiving a title like that is quite an honor but compared to the players who rose to that level before, I think I’m still lacking. Though it’s nice if fans call me that, I still think “Ultimate Weapon” is better and more appropriate for me right now.
Although I still stand by the logic that he should be referred to as God and not Bonjwa, I have no option but to retract my statement of him NOT being regarded as Bonjwa by the Korean scene, because that article's translation seemed to directly assert this fact. I would like to note that it does seem that while there is no debate about the previous Bonjwa titles (probably because they were handed post-dominanace for all but Savior), there always seemed to be debate about Flash taking the title. That's might just be on TL and through choice netizen translations though.
This makes zero sense. You're saying Flash is not Bonjwa because there is debate about Flash being bonjwa--debate which you are stirring up? So since you disbelieve Flash is Bonjwa then Flash is not Bonjwa? dafuq?
Wow chill bro ^^ I obviously meant not including myself, and a few years ago when the debate was still around. The entire concept of Bonjwa made it seem like it could only be granted when there was no doubt at all about it - so people doubting back then (and not just me, haha) would by definition not make him Bonjwa.
Anyways, it's time to drop this line of conversation. I already said I had no choice but to agree - why would you try to stir up more shit? I guess it should have been expected considering you just HAD to have me post "i was wrong u were rite, i am dumb u r smart" after I had pretty much expressed non-argument to ore0z's post. You don't have to have the last word to win ya know ^^;
No prob. The bonjwa argument really sticks in my craw because I got banned from TL for it.
On November 30 2012 08:41 Jealous wrote: Flash can't be Bonjwa for many reasons but I'll list 2 of the major ones:
1.The Korean scene did not acknowledge him as such and never did, only in speculation.
2. He had rivals close to his skill level that gave him too much trouble during what would otherwise be his reign, with them taking OSL/MSL titles more consistently than during the previous Bonjwa (iirc).
Q With this victory, you’ve risen to Bonjwa status. A Receiving a title like that is quite an honor but compared to the players who rose to that level before, I think I’m still lacking. Though it’s nice if fans call me that, I still think “Ultimate Weapon” is better and more appropriate for me right now.
Although I still stand by the logic that he should be referred to as God and not Bonjwa, I have no option but to retract my statement of him NOT being regarded as Bonjwa by the Korean scene, because that article's translation seemed to directly assert this fact. I would like to note that it does seem that while there is no debate about the previous Bonjwa titles (probably because they were handed post-dominanace for all but Savior), there always seemed to be debate about Flash taking the title. That's might just be on TL and through choice netizen translations though.
This makes zero sense. You're saying Flash is not Bonjwa because there is debate about Flash being bonjwa--debate which you are stirring up? So since you disbelieve Flash is Bonjwa then Flash is not Bonjwa? dafuq?
Wow chill bro ^^ I obviously meant not including myself, and a few years ago when the debate was still around. The entire concept of Bonjwa made it seem like it could only be granted when there was no doubt at all about it - so people doubting back then (and not just me, haha) would by definition not make him Bonjwa.
Anyways, it's time to drop this line of conversation. I already said I had no choice but to agree - why would you try to stir up more shit? I guess it should have been expected considering you just HAD to have me post "i was wrong u were rite, i am dumb u r smart" after I had pretty much expressed non-argument to ore0z's post. You don't have to have the last word to win ya know ^^;
No prob. The bonjwa argument really sticks in my craw because I got banned from TL for it.
Why are you saying Bisu's PvP opponents weren't all that good, then bring in Fantasy as an example of a 'strong' TvT opponent Flash had to play against, lol. Up until the last PL season, Fantasy was pretty much the definition of inconsistent in TvT, and his TvT style was always the scissors to Flash's rock.
a response in that thread that koreans also know of flash's sensu + Show Spoiler +
On May 14 2011 02:32 ZnocK wrote: Since your korean you should know. English community isnt the only one whos saying flash "map-hacks." The korean commentators (who i believe has more experience in the game than almost anyone in here) gets amazed and even talks about flash having a hidden door way or trick mirror to see his opponents move. Ofcourse their kidding but even thats saying alot since they have to be unbaised towards all the player.
- luck because had Leta planted the CC straight at the nat, he will not be able to delay the econ advantage and will be behind. He will damage the CC enough but not significantly, Leta will simply have pulled scvs until the first marine was out and that would have been the end of the strategy and flash will definitely be behind. If it happened, Leta will have a good econ off 2 bases to get army and wall off while flash will be in one base, one factory, and with the risky strategy not doing its work of delaying Leta's econ.
As seen in one of the interviews or another, flash calculates his scout time. Which means in his practice game he calculated that even if leta was @ 7 oclock he would still be at an advantage. Thats what he been saying for a year now. He always scouts only the expo area in 4 player maps in calculation that even if he misses he would still be at a even. FYI this scouting method has been talked about in one of the program that flash was in, maybe one of the oldboy episodes or maybe the back-talk show in korean air osl part of the episode. (The korean commentator was very speechless at this scouting in this game too)
People saying that Flash uses "hack" isnt new at all and its not only in the english community. The korean commentators (Who has to be unbaised towards the players and has more experience in broodwar than almost anyone in here) even talked about, ofcourse in a joking manner, flash using trick mirrors or hidden panel of doorway to see his opponents move. They been saying playing against him is like having vision on for quiet some time now. Flash gets wins alot of games, and some might call it luck, some might call it practicing alot and as people say "luck is part of the skill"
Finally Havn't you ever put your self in the players shoe. Going up against someone in a live stage where everygame counts towards either winning a starleague or a proleague match. How there is 1000 or more stradegies in each match up. One can cheese, one can FE, one can time push, one can eco cheese. Out of all these Flash usually counters his opponent pretty well and even some of his games, he counters his opponent so well that it looks like he was hacking. Some people might take it too far but you gotta admit that Flash has one if not the best star sense in progaming scene. Also this is a site dedicated to e-sports, and in any "sports" related discussion there are always someone who has a passision for a player or a team.
FYI. im going to include some games that shows Flashs "starsense" and the korean commentators talking about it.
3. Flash vs Light Flash's scv makes a u-turn and scouts lights barracks. Also his scv scouts starport even tho he saw proxy fac with vultures just coming out. Even the mbc coach called it earmaphacking (where the players hears the audience) which is untrue since the booth is sound proof. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/36423_Flash_vs_Light
MBCGame manager Hero Ha Tae Ki states that after discussing with the company he will launch a complaint about 7th game against KT Rolster which is now under controversy as 'ear map'.
...
At game played on Match Point Flash (KT. Terran) scouted the Light's proxy Barrracks with the SCV. However, this became a problem because SCV had moved perpendicularly during the course of its scouting due to the audiences' loud cry.
"Light also said that he had heard the audiences' roar. Proxy Barracks could have beaten Flash's tactics," manager Ha Tae Ki stressed, "today's game is not just simple 1 win."
...
MBCGame can make a complaint to Korean eSport Federation within 24 hours but the result of the mass does not change. But manager Ha emphasizes, "the result cannot be changed. But it must be revealed if the opponent has heard the sounds of the audience. Also we must recover Light's dignity."
On March 10 2010 16:14 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Flash not even making turrets. HE KNOWS ITS LURKERS! NOO A SECOND BUNKER SHIT!
On March 10 2010 16:14 thunk wrote: Holy shit Flash is telepathic.
On March 10 2010 16:14 TwoToneTerran wrote: FUCKING
MAPHACK
TERRAN
On March 10 2010 16:19 Vivi57 wrote: FLASH IS A GOD
On March 10 2010 16:34 Slow Motion wrote: Stop trying to apply common logic to Flash. He has evolved beyond that and is now omniscient.
On March 10 2010 16:42 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: I was watching the PLU stream and the commentator said that if Flash played like this on ICCUP, he'd probably be banned for map hacking haha.
On March 10 2010 17:31 Lyriene wrote: Q: You showed a great defensive ability against Calm A: It was based on my sense. I built more Bunkers before checking with my scan. I trusted my feelings so I ended up making a lot of Bunkers, and my opponent ended up doing an all-in. I think it’s been a while since my sense was right on the spot.
On March 12 2010 12:51 sob3k wrote: Just made this...
artosis went ape shit over his play in the osl finals vs movie in his scforall weekly (still up on youtube) but flash effortlessly deflected the gas steal by opting to have 7 scvs mine gas at the natural rather than a more typical responses (kill the assimulator, or just be more delayed with natural gas mining) AND then goes scouts a proxy robo without seeing anything too suspicous (i.e. his scv left movie's base before the proxy pylon went down; often you suspect proxy if you don't see a third pylon or you just see a blocked ramp).
there are others too, but I forget some off the top of my head.
but tl;dr flash consistently had "wtf" moments on top of his simply sheer dominance of the scene. He was God.
*edit* real quick hr also constantly whipped out random unique-ish cheeses at times to simply rape his opponent, with his original monty hall cheese vs bisu to the 7 rax vs protoss (used against best in proleague on jade, etc) to even a 5 rax on dreamliner in osl final, though that was one wonky game. Not to mention cheesing at the right times too (bbs vs stork to win osl gold).
not to mention his builds, like his +1 before academy 5 rax that raped zero in abc mart, his original anti carrier build focuses, raping stork on ground zero with that dropship thing, etc.
Bisu was supremely sound mechanically; I would put him above everyone, including Jaedong and Flash. Bisu's revolutionary PvZ occurred naturally because it just happened to be the style that suited his style perfectly.
A couple of key points: - Even after Bisu showcased his PvZ to the world, most Protoss players still struggled immensely against Zerg for a very long time; it wasn't because they didn't know Bisu's build, it was because they couldn't mimic Bisu's control. - Bisu continued to have amazing PvZ runs until the end of BW; he simply had better control than most of his Zerg opponents - Bisu had relatively weak PvT because harass and multitasking aren't as important/effective in PvT; he did have amazing engagements which was imo his only saving grace in his PvT
I never thought of Bisu as a strategic player like Flash and Stork, he was just someone who had a decent game sense and incredible multitasking
On November 30 2012 14:00 Cambium wrote: Bisu was supremely sound mechanically; I would put him above everyone, including Jaedong and Flash. Bisu's revolutionary PvZ occurred naturally because it just happened to be the style that suited his style perfectly.
A couple of key points: - Even after Bisu showcased his PvZ to the world, most Protoss players still struggled immensely against Zerg for a very long time; it wasn't because they didn't know Bisu's build, it was because they couldn't mimic Bisu's control. - Bisu continued to have amazing PvZ runs until the end of BW; he simply had better control than most of his Zerg opponents - Bisu had relatively weak PvT because harass and multitasking aren't as important/effective in PvT; he did have amazing engagements which was imo his only saving grace in his PvT
I never thought of Bisu as a strategic player like Flash and Stork, he was just someone who had a decent game sense and incredible multitasking
So why is it that when control actually matters AND is at its easiest (Carriers v. T) did Bisu fail so hard T_T
On November 30 2012 14:00 Cambium wrote: Bisu was supremely sound mechanically; I would put him above everyone, including Jaedong and Flash. Bisu's revolutionary PvZ occurred naturally because it just happened to be the style that suited his style perfectly.
A couple of key points: - Even after Bisu showcased his PvZ to the world, most Protoss players still struggled immensely against Zerg for a very long time; it wasn't because they didn't know Bisu's build, it was because they couldn't mimic Bisu's control. - Bisu continued to have amazing PvZ runs until the end of BW; he simply had better control than most of his Zerg opponents - Bisu had relatively weak PvT because harass and multitasking aren't as important/effective in PvT; he did have amazing engagements which was imo his only saving grace in his PvT
I never thought of Bisu as a strategic player like Flash and Stork, he was just someone who had a decent game sense and incredible multitasking
I agree here. Bisu's multitask and harassment ability were unparalleled in BW. Unfortunately, the fact remains that he was unable to translate that skill into results; nor was he able to successfully overcome his relative shortcomings.
On November 30 2012 14:00 Cambium wrote: Bisu was supremely sound mechanically; I would put him above everyone, including Jaedong and Flash. Bisu's revolutionary PvZ occurred naturally because it just happened to be the style that suited his style perfectly.
A couple of key points: - Even after Bisu showcased his PvZ to the world, most Protoss players still struggled immensely against Zerg for a very long time; it wasn't because they didn't know Bisu's build, it was because they couldn't mimic Bisu's control. - Bisu continued to have amazing PvZ runs until the end of BW; he simply had better control than most of his Zerg opponents - Bisu had relatively weak PvT because harass and multitasking aren't as important/effective in PvT; he did have amazing engagements which was imo his only saving grace in his PvT
I never thought of Bisu as a strategic player like Flash and Stork, he was just someone who had a decent game sense and incredible multitasking
I agree here. Bisu's multitask and harassment ability were unparalleled in BW. Unfortunately, the fact remains that he was unable to translate that skill into results; nor was he able to successfully overcome his relative shortcomings.
Let's be a little less biased or more explicit here, he had plenty of good results, I think his 63 wins in 2010-2011 PL included ^^; If Bisu didn't get results by your standards, then the only players who did (in the same time period): Jaedong, Flash, Fantasy, Jangbi. Although perhaps you are leaning more to just": Flash." ? xDD
On November 30 2012 14:00 Cambium wrote: Bisu was supremely sound mechanically; I would put him above everyone, including Jaedong and Flash. Bisu's revolutionary PvZ occurred naturally because it just happened to be the style that suited his style perfectly.
A couple of key points: - Even after Bisu showcased his PvZ to the world, most Protoss players still struggled immensely against Zerg for a very long time; it wasn't because they didn't know Bisu's build, it was because they couldn't mimic Bisu's control. - Bisu continued to have amazing PvZ runs until the end of BW; he simply had better control than most of his Zerg opponents - Bisu had relatively weak PvT because harass and multitasking aren't as important/effective in PvT; he did have amazing engagements which was imo his only saving grace in his PvT
I never thought of Bisu as a strategic player like Flash and Stork, he was just someone who had a decent game sense and incredible multitasking
So why is it that when control actually matters AND is at its easiest (Carriers v. T) did Bisu fail so hard T_T
Carriers aren't a control unit per se; they're more of a positional unit.
Protosses don't use carriers to specifically harass; rather, they use carriers to 1) force T to change to a less cost-efficient army composition and 2) force T to ball up and chase after the carriers with a significant mobility disadvantage. Carriers don't win in a straight fight vs goliaths, nor do they even with with good "micro" (esp after Flash introduced his anti-carrier build.) Rather, Carriers give P an easy (or even easier) way to force the T out of position again and again and again.
Stork was good with carriers because I think he was the single best positional player in the game. He knew what ground to take and when. Flash beat Stork when he could use Stork's nerves against him and lost when he couldn't... but given how much self-doubt Stork usually had vs Flash, it was typically a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Later on in Flash's career, he would learn the same tricks of positional warfare that Stork championed and use them against everyone else.
On November 30 2012 14:00 Cambium wrote: Bisu was supremely sound mechanically; I would put him above everyone, including Jaedong and Flash. Bisu's revolutionary PvZ occurred naturally because it just happened to be the style that suited his style perfectly.
A couple of key points: - Even after Bisu showcased his PvZ to the world, most Protoss players still struggled immensely against Zerg for a very long time; it wasn't because they didn't know Bisu's build, it was because they couldn't mimic Bisu's control. - Bisu continued to have amazing PvZ runs until the end of BW; he simply had better control than most of his Zerg opponents - Bisu had relatively weak PvT because harass and multitasking aren't as important/effective in PvT; he did have amazing engagements which was imo his only saving grace in his PvT
I never thought of Bisu as a strategic player like Flash and Stork, he was just someone who had a decent game sense and incredible multitasking
I agree here. Bisu's multitask and harassment ability were unparalleled in BW. Unfortunately, the fact remains that he was unable to translate that skill into results; nor was he able to successfully overcome his relative shortcomings.
Let's be a little less biased or more explicit here, he had plenty of good results, I think his 63 wins in 2010-2011 PL included ^^; If Bisu didn't get results by your standards, then the only players who did (in the same time period): Jaedong, Flash, Fantasy, Jangbi. Although perhaps you are leaning more to just": Flash." ? xDD
I mean players who got to the Ro16 in individual leagues, so include Kal, Calm, Go.Go, Hwasin, Action, Stats, Violet, Sea, etc.
EDIT: And Shine. And Hyvaa.
There were times when Bisu would just make inexcusable game sense errors, like double expanding vs. Hyvaa while seeing Hyvaa mass up tons of defilers for a pre-Ultra timing. It's like he believed his harass and control and battle skills would let him prevail against suicidal odds, and then he would lose, painfully.
On November 30 2012 14:00 Cambium wrote: Bisu was supremely sound mechanically; I would put him above everyone, including Jaedong and Flash. Bisu's revolutionary PvZ occurred naturally because it just happened to be the style that suited his style perfectly.
A couple of key points: - Even after Bisu showcased his PvZ to the world, most Protoss players still struggled immensely against Zerg for a very long time; it wasn't because they didn't know Bisu's build, it was because they couldn't mimic Bisu's control. - Bisu continued to have amazing PvZ runs until the end of BW; he simply had better control than most of his Zerg opponents - Bisu had relatively weak PvT because harass and multitasking aren't as important/effective in PvT; he did have amazing engagements which was imo his only saving grace in his PvT
I never thought of Bisu as a strategic player like Flash and Stork, he was just someone who had a decent game sense and incredible multitasking
I agree here. Bisu's multitask and harassment ability were unparalleled in BW. Unfortunately, the fact remains that he was unable to translate that skill into results; nor was he able to successfully overcome his relative shortcomings.
Let's be a little less biased or more explicit here, he had plenty of good results, I think his 63 wins in 2010-2011 PL included ^^; If Bisu didn't get results by your standards, then the only players who did (in the same time period): Jaedong, Flash, Fantasy, Jangbi. Although perhaps you are leaning more to just": Flash." ? xDD
I mean players who got to the Ro16 in individual leagues, so include Kal, Calm, Go.Go, Hwasin, Action, Stats, Violet, Sea, etc.
EDIT: And Shine. And Hyvaa.
There were times when Bisu would just make inexcusable game sense errors, like double expanding vs. Hyvaa while seeing Hyvaa mass up tons of defilers for a pre-Ultra timing. It's like he believed his harass and control and battle skills would let him prevail against suicidal odds, and then he would lose, painfully.
Lol...
Go.Go, Action, Shine, Hyvaa, Violet = good results gg wp Bisu = bad results sry
Still trolling even on a new account, nothing to see here, move along.
On November 30 2012 14:00 Cambium wrote: Bisu was supremely sound mechanically; I would put him above everyone, including Jaedong and Flash. Bisu's revolutionary PvZ occurred naturally because it just happened to be the style that suited his style perfectly.
A couple of key points: - Even after Bisu showcased his PvZ to the world, most Protoss players still struggled immensely against Zerg for a very long time; it wasn't because they didn't know Bisu's build, it was because they couldn't mimic Bisu's control. - Bisu continued to have amazing PvZ runs until the end of BW; he simply had better control than most of his Zerg opponents - Bisu had relatively weak PvT because harass and multitasking aren't as important/effective in PvT; he did have amazing engagements which was imo his only saving grace in his PvT
I never thought of Bisu as a strategic player like Flash and Stork, he was just someone who had a decent game sense and incredible multitasking
So why is it that when control actually matters AND is at its easiest (Carriers v. T) did Bisu fail so hard T_T
Carriers aren't a control unit per se; they're more of a positional unit.
Protosses don't use carriers to specifically harass; rather, they use carriers to 1) force T to change to a less cost-efficient army composition and 2) force T to ball up and chase after the carriers with a significant mobility disadvantage. Carriers don't win in a straight fight vs goliaths, nor do they even with with good "micro" (esp after Flash introduced his anti-carrier build.) Rather, Carriers give P an easy (or even easier) way to force the T out of position again and again and again.
Stork was good with carriers because I think he was the single best positional player in the game. He knew what ground to take and when. Flash beat Stork when he could use Stork's nerves against him and lost when he couldn't... but given how much self-doubt Stork usually had vs Flash, it was typically a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Later on in Flash's career, he would learn the same tricks of positional warfare that Stork championed and use them against everyone else.
Well-said. "Commander of chief of no weak points", or whatever his nickname, refers to the kind of airtight positional play Stork exhibited. He never had the best mechanics or game sense, but when it got time for strategic maneuvering and angles of confrontation, he was downright amazing.
With regard to Flash being a bonjwa...I'll admit upfront that I never particularly liked Flash while he was playing bw; whether it was during time of his simple one-two punch timings or during the height of his dominance, I never really was a fan of him. Nothing against him at all, just wasn't a fan or anything.
But is he a bonjwa? Personally, that's not even a question worth considering. His kind of dominance was off the charts. Every single time he lost a game, people would wonder in the LRs or wherever else whether Flash's dominance was over, that so-and-so was AMAZING OMG (remember Snow?). I think that kind of rapid, reactionary kind of hope was in itself extremely indicative of his dominance. Kind of a false hope that Flash wouldn't stop dominating their favorite players (in some cases), latching onto whatever could be found; the odd loss was made that much more significant by his stretch of consistent ownage.
And about Bisu, yeah...he had heavenly multitask and mechanics. But I really don't think he was spearheading a change in the protoss approach to the game or innovating. More like he found the perfect playstyle for himself and showed that through the Savior game. Otherwise yes, he was pretty consistent, but I the lack of consistent individual league results (infamously in OSL) kind of demonstrates his shortcomings in planning and executing strategies tailored to the metagame and to his opponents. One of my friends was a huge Bisu fan (has since moved to LoL since sc2 came out ._.), and I always thought he was pretty dead-on with his description of Bisu. Dumb as rocks, but a mechanically ridiculous player, just monstrous in that department
I don't think either of you guys are too far off (besides your differing "biases"). It's more that you're compelling each other to take potshots because of your inflammatory language and whatnot lol.
On November 30 2012 13:23 Salazarz wrote: Why are you saying Bisu's PvP opponents weren't all that good, then bring in Fantasy as an example of a 'strong' TvT opponent Flash had to play against, lol. Up until the last PL season, Fantasy was pretty much the definition of inconsistent in TvT, and his TvT style was always the scissors to Flash's rock.
Let's look at Bisu's "strong" PvP opponents from 2008-2012 (about the time when both Bisu and Flash were very good; yes, Bisu was the best player in the world, mostly riding on his famous PvZ, for much of 2007, but we'd like to compare them over a similar timeframe). Keep in mind that Bisu's peak PvP ELO was on 10/28/2009.
First, we note that Bisu's PvP record over this time period was a very scary 102-53 (65.81%).
Now, I'll list his records vs. top PvPers (by peak ELO). I'm leaving out Reach, Pusan, Anytime, Nal_rA, Kingdom, fOru here because they're too old and all (except Anytime/Pusan) had their peaks far before the time period we're looking at; in the case of Anytime and Pusan, they stopped being serious threats sometime in early 2008.
I cut this off at 12 players, which is much more favorable-looking than cutting off at say, the top 5 (against whom Bisu has a 20-18 (52.63%) record.)
Not bad. However, observe that most of these wins occured in single-game matches (which are mostly in Proleague), with the exception of [single] WCG Bo3 wins over Stork and free and OSL/MSL series wins over free, BeSt, Jangbi (multiple times in late 2008-early 2009) and Much (a lot).
His only Bo5 wins over Protoss in this time period are over free in ClubDay and Jangbi in consecutive finals (ClubDay MSL, GOM Classic 2).
(Before 2008, he 3-1'd Nal_rA, 3-2'd Stork in the famous no-goon-range finals, and was 3-0'd by Stork five months later.)
Outside of his 2007-invincibility and late 2008-early 2009's consecutive wins over Jangbi, Bisu's PvP can't really be called "dominant." Of course, he did display dominance for short stretches of time, but didn't really get much chance to show off how good his series PvP is.
Now let's take into account that maybe, because he could never make it far into individual leagues, Bisu showed his PvP skill primarily in Proleague. We'll look at his famous 63-win campaign in the 2010-2011 Proleague/Winner's League. He posted a 16-7 PvP record here. But against the strong opponents listed above?
vs. Stork: 0-2 vs. Horang2: 1-1 vs. Kal: 2-2 vs. Jangbi: 1-0 vs. Stats: 0-1 vs. Pure (who honestly sucked at this point): 1-0 vs. free: 1-1
Total: 6-7 (46.15%).
Interesting, hmm?
I won't deny that Bisu is possibly the best PvP player of all time, overall, but he was--for lack of a better "word"--rather "vincible."
Now let's look at Flash's TvT. His TvT record from 2008-2012 was 155 - 56 (73.46%); this is a bit (a lot?) better than Bisu's PvP record. Now zoom in to Flash's performance against top TvTers. I'll leave out NaDa, XellOs, Goodfriend, Iris, iloveoov, BoxeR, Midas, and Casy; of these, Iris, Midas, and Casy had TvT peaks in 2007 (though Iris arguably remained a top TvT player into early 2009 and Flash is 6-1 vs. Iris, we'll leave him out anyway.) Observe that Flash has a 38-20 (65.52%) record against the top 5 here. Flash is also 10-3 vs. Really, the 13th highest TvT ELO peak and breaker of Flash's record 17-game TvT win streak; by comparison, Bisu is 0-1 vs. the 13th highest PvP ELO peak, Tempest.
vs. sKyHigh: 3-3 vs. Fantasy: 13-10 (I counted his Proleague Rivals Battle loss.) vs. Sea: 8-0 (I didn't count Ultimate PL) vs. Leta: 13-6 (I counted his STX Masters loss.) vs. Canata: 1-1 (lol Canata) vs. Light: 6-2 vs. Hwasin: 5-1 (discounting the 2-0 in Hana Daetoo which might've been match-fixed) vs. HiyA: 10-2 vs. firebathero: 6-2 vs. Mind: 9-0 (excluding the GOM Preseason Invitational, which was Flash 3-1 Mind) vs. BaBy: 4-2 vs. ForGG: 5-4
Total: 83-33 (71.55%)
Now let's look at series play. Flash lost a total of 3 TvT series in this timeframe: 1-3 to ForGG in Arena MSL, 1-2 to Leta in Lost Saga MSL, and most recently 0-3 to Fantasy in tving OSL. On the flip side, he's won 10 mirror-matchup Bo3s (including, from the above list, series over Mind, HiyA, Fantasy, BaBy, Leta, ForGG, and Leta again), and has gone 3-2 over Lomo, 3-1 over Iris, 3-1 over Mvp, 3-2 over Fantasy, and 3-1 over Leta for a 5-2 record in Bo5s.
Complementing his 70.29% winrate in individual leagues is Flash's obscene 75.2% (ignoring his two PvTs against Bisu and BeSt in All-Stars, but including his 0-3 mirror record in other non-standard leagues) TvT winrate in team leagues.
I don't think you can say that Bisu comes terribly close to Flash in pure dominance of the mirror matchup. Heck, JvZ looked significantly stronger than BvP for a long time, and even in PvP, BeSt's 16-win streak was more impressive than most of Bisu's vP play (again, outside Bisu vs Stork 2007 and Bisu vs Jangbi 2008-09.)
Finally, let's talk about Fantasy's "erratic" play prior to his last-season-of-PL dominance. From 2008 to the end of July 2011, Fantasy's TvT was 76-45 (62.81%) (sans his ZvT against Jaedong and his win over Sea in the PL Map Test). Removing his 6-13 record against Flash in this period, his record against other Terrans was 68.63% during this time period; that's better than Bisu's 89-44 (66.92%) vP win percentage (removing All-Stars [0-1], Map Test [1-0], and MBC Skins League [3-4]), by the way!
So I don't know what was so inconsistent about Fantasy's vT during the time he went 6-13 vs. Flash. He was certainly a top 5 TvT player from mid-2008 onwards, and at the time he lost 2-3 to Flash in the Bigfile MSL finals, only Skyhigh and Flash could even claim to have a better TvT than Fantasy did.
In conclusion: stop making excuses for why Bisu's PvP seemed weaker than Flash's TvT.
On November 30 2012 13:23 Salazarz wrote: Why are you saying Bisu's PvP opponents weren't all that good, then bring in Fantasy as an example of a 'strong' TvT opponent Flash had to play against, lol. Up until the last PL season, Fantasy was pretty much the definition of inconsistent in TvT, and his TvT style was always the scissors to Flash's rock.
Let's look at Bisu's "strong" PvP opponents from 2008-2012 (about the time when both Bisu and Flash were very good; yes, Bisu was the best player in the world, mostly riding on his famous PvZ, for much of 2007, but we'd like to compare them over a similar timeframe). Keep in mind that Bisu's peak PvP ELO was on 10/28/2009.
First, we note that Bisu's PvP record over this time period was a very scary 102-53 (65.81%).
Now, I'll list his records vs. top PvPers (by peak ELO). I'm leaving out Reach, Pusan, Anytime, Nal_rA, Kingdom, fOru here because they're too old and all (except Anytime/Pusan) had their peaks far before the time period we're looking at; in the case of Anytime and Pusan, they stopped being serious threats sometime in early 2008.
I cut this off at 12 players, which is much more favorable-looking than cutting off at say, the top 5 (against whom Bisu has a 20-18 (52.63%) record.)
Not bad. However, observe that most of these wins occured in single-game matches (which are mostly in Proleague), with the exception of [single] WCG Bo3 wins over Stork and free and OSL/MSL series wins over free, BeSt, Jangbi (multiple times in late 2008-early 2009) and Much (a lot).
His only Bo5 wins over Protoss in this time period are over free in ClubDay and Jangbi in consecutive finals (ClubDay MSL, GOM Classic 2).
(Before 2008, he 3-1'd Nal_rA, 3-2'd Stork in the famous no-goon-range finals, and was 3-0'd by Stork five months later.)
Outside of his 2007-invincibility and late 2008-early 2009's consecutive wins over Jangbi, Bisu's PvP can't really be called "dominant." Of course, he did display dominance for short stretches of time, but didn't really get much chance to show off how good his series PvP is.
Now let's take into account that maybe, because he could never make it far into individual leagues, Bisu showed his PvP skill primarily in Proleague. We'll look at his famous 63-win campaign in the 2010-2011 Proleague/Winner's League. He posted a 16-7 PvP record here. But against the strong opponents listed above?
vs. Stork: 0-2 vs. Horang2: 1-1 vs. Kal: 2-2 vs. Jangbi: 1-0 vs. Stats: 0-1 vs. Pure (who honestly sucked at this point): 1-0 vs. free: 1-1
Total: 6-7 (46.15%).
Interesting, hmm?
I won't deny that Bisu is possibly the best PvP player of all time, overall, but he was--for lack of a better "word"--rather "vincible."
Now let's look at Flash's TvT. His TvT record from 2008-2012 was 155 - 56 (73.46%); this is a bit (a lot?) better than Bisu's PvP record. Now zoom in to Flash's performance against top TvTers. I'll leave out NaDa, XellOs, Goodfriend, Iris, iloveoov, BoxeR, Midas, and Casy; of these, Iris, Midas, and Casy had TvT peaks in 2007 (though Iris arguably remained a top TvT player into early 2009 and Flash is 6-1 vs. Iris, we'll leave him out anyway.) Observe that Flash has a 38-20 (65.52%) record against the top 5 here. Flash is also 10-3 vs. Really, the 13th highest TvT ELO peak and breaker of Flash's record 17-game TvT win streak; by comparison, Bisu is 0-1 vs. the 13th highest PvP ELO peak, Tempest.
vs. sKyHigh: 3-3 vs. Fantasy: 13-10 (I counted his Proleague Rivals Battle loss.) vs. Sea: 8-0 (I didn't count Ultimate PL) vs. Leta: 13-6 (I counted his STX Masters loss.) vs. Canata: 1-1 (lol Canata) vs. Light: 6-2 vs. Hwasin: 5-1 (discounting the 2-0 in Hana Daetoo which might've been match-fixed) vs. HiyA: 10-2 vs. firebathero: 6-2 vs. Mind: 9-0 (excluding the GOM Preseason Invitational, which was Flash 3-1 Mind) vs. BaBy: 4-2 vs. ForGG: 5-4
Total: 83-33 (71.55%)
Now let's look at series play. Flash lost a total of 3 TvT series in this timeframe: 1-3 to ForGG in Arena MSL, 1-2 to Leta in Lost Saga MSL, and most recently 0-3 to Fantasy in tving OSL. On the flip side, he's won 10 mirror-matchup Bo3s (including, from the above list, series over Mind, HiyA, Fantasy, BaBy, Leta, ForGG, and Leta again), and has gone 3-2 over Lomo, 3-1 over Iris, 3-1 over Mvp, 3-2 over Fantasy, and 3-1 over Leta for a 5-2 record in Bo5s.
Complementing his 70.29% winrate in individual leagues is Flash's obscene 75.2% (ignoring his two PvTs against Bisu and BeSt in All-Stars, but including his 0-3 mirror record in other non-standard leagues) TvT winrate in team leagues.
I don't think you can say that Bisu comes terribly close to Flash in pure dominance of the mirror matchup. Heck, JvZ looked significantly stronger than BvP for a long time, and even in PvP, BeSt's 16-win streak was more impressive than most of Bisu's vP play (again, outside Bisu vs Stork 2007 and Bisu vs Jangbi 2008-09.)
Finally, let's talk about Fantasy's "erratic" play prior to his last-season-of-PL dominance. From 2008 to the end of July 2011, Fantasy's TvT was 76-45 (62.81%) (sans his ZvT against Jaedong and his win over Sea in the PL Map Test). Removing his 6-13 record against Flash in this period, his record against other Terrans was 68.63% during this time period; that's better than Bisu's 89-44 (66.92%) vP win percentage (removing All-Stars [0-1], Map Test [1-0], and MBC Skins League [3-4]), by the way!
So I don't know what was so inconsistent about Fantasy's vT during the time he went 6-13 vs. Flash. He was certainly a top 5 TvT player from mid-2008 onwards, and at the time he lost 2-3 to Flash in the Bigfile MSL finals, only Skyhigh and Flash could even claim to have a better TvT than Fantasy did.
In conclusion: stop making excuses for why Bisu's PvP seemed weaker than Flash's TvT.
1. You can't just take PvP and TvT winrate percentages and compare those two directly. As ]343[ himself stated in his 'analysis', Bisu was the best PvP player despite having a much worse PvP record than Flash's TvT record. Is this just because every Protoss player is an idiot, and Bisu happened to be the least dumb of them all? Unlikely. Anyone familiar with BW knows how PvP games are often determined by blind or near-blind build order choices and very quick high risk, high reward moves, whereas TvT is much more likely to progress into a longer game - where a better player will always have an advantage.
2. You can't just compare 2 players with completely different styles and focus side to side like this. Bisu was always the PL superstar of SKT (and BW) in general; whether this is due to his mentality or the choice of SKT's coaches, but he was pretty much the best performing PL player of all time, and it's not like his MSL wins are somehow meaningless either, even though it's true that he was a much better player in PL format rather than individuals. To claim that he had 'no results' is flat out stupid, like, seriously it's mind boggling how could even the biggest Bisu hater say something like that.
3. About Fantasy (and in fact this is also somewhat true of Bisu): he's had a very good vT record, but you can't deny he's done flat out dumb shit every now and then. On a good day, he was untouchable, on a bad day, he looked like a rookie. He's also had nerve issues in important matches, and some of his big losses (remember the bigfile MSL semis vs Flash?) were 100% giving the games to his opponent due to that.
Does that somehow take away from Flash's accomplishments? Not at all, after all it is his consistency that set him apart from any other top player; he didn't just have peaks of brilliance separated by periods of mediocrity, but rather a long streak of being at the top, even though throughout majority of that period he sort of had to share the seat with others. But there's no need to try to take away from other players' achievements and contribution to the game to try to prove your point, especially by drawing direct comparisons between vastly different races.
On November 30 2012 16:47 Salazarz wrote: 1. You can't just take PvP and TvT winrate percentages and compare those two directly. As ]343[ himself stated in his 'analysis', Bisu was the best PvP player despite having a much worse PvP record than Flash's TvT record. Is this just because every Protoss player is an idiot, and Bisu happened to be the least dumb of them all? Unlikely. Anyone familiar with BW knows how PvP games are often determined by blind or near-blind build order choices and very quick high risk, high reward moves, whereas TvT is much more likely to progress into a longer game - where a better player will always have an advantage.
I agree that it's more difficult to achieve a 70%+ win-rate in PvP due to the luck involved in build orders, etc.
But the argument here is that Bisu's PvP play is just not as impressive as Flash's TvT play. This is due in part to the randomness inherent in PvP, in part to Bisu's failure to advance far enough in individual leagues to play many PvP series, in part due to the depth of the rest of the SKT team, and in part to the existence of other players (BeSt, Shuttle, Horang2) who were similarly impressive in the matchup for basically all of Bisu's "reign" as best Protoss [alongside Stork]. (To clarify, I mean that it was uncommon that Bisu would be considered the undisputed best PvP player.)
Moreover, isn't ZvZ even more "coin-flippy" than PvP? How does Jaedong's long run of 70%+ ZvZ fit into your argument?
2. You can't just compare 2 players with completely different styles and focus side to side like this. Bisu was always the PL superstar of SKT (and BW) in general; whether this is due to his mentality or the choice of SKT's coaches, but he was pretty much the best performing PL player of all time, and it's not like his MSL wins are somehow meaningless either, even though it's true that he was a much better player in PL format rather than individuals. To claim that he had 'no results' is flat out stupid, like, seriously it's mind boggling how could even the biggest Bisu hater say something like that.
Bisu was not, in fact, always the PL superstar of SKT. In fact, around the time he was the best individual league player (2007), his Proleague performance was quite bad. When he switched to "Proleague beast," his individual league results then fell off. Bisu obviously works very hard, but why did he (and not Flash or Jaedong, who were basically carrying their teams) complain of "not enough practice time"? Perhaps he wasn't (isn't?) as mentally tough (see: SC2 transition) or practice-efficient as F/J?
Also, nowhere did anyone say that Bisu had "no results"....
3. About Fantasy (and in fact this is also somewhat true of Bisu): he's had a very good vT record, but you can't deny he's done flat out dumb shit every now and then. On a good day, he was untouchable, on a bad day, he looked like a rookie. He's also had nerve issues in important matches, and some of his big losses (remember the bigfile MSL semis vs Flash?) were 100% giving the games to his opponent due to that.
Maybe I'm misremembering, but I always remember that series as epic because both sides played very well... either way, keep in mind that Fantasy is not actually a dumb player. In fact, Oov and Boxer think he's very smart. The times where Fantasy or any good pro look "dumb" are just mis-predictions that get out of hand; these mis-predictions happen to Flash and to other "consistent" players as well.
Does that somehow take away from Flash's accomplishments? Not at all, after all it is his consistency that set him apart from any other top player; he didn't just have peaks of brilliance separated by periods of mediocrity, but rather a long streak of being at the top, even though throughout majority of that period he sort of had to share the seat with others.
You don't seem to remember mid-2008 to mid-2009, when Flash was not exactly at the top the whole time...
But there's no need to try to take away from other players' achievements and contribution to the game to try to prove your point, especially by drawing direct comparisons between vastly different races.
I'm not trying to take away from other's achievements; Bisu is the best Protoss player ever. I'm just comparing his achievements to those of another of the greatest players ever, Flash.
The biggest thing with Bisu was the lack of individual league runs later in his career. He was a beast in PL and even I, a mild Bisu antifan, always hoped he'd make another deep run into a MSL or OSL (just because I wanted to see more Bisu v Flash Bo5s.)
With SC2 and HOTS changing everything, it makes me sad that I was ever an antifan of anyone . I wish I could go back and watch BW PL, OSL, MSL for the rest of my life .
On November 30 2012 11:40 1ntrigue wrote: Great article and agreed on all points. Flash also attracted me because of his formidability in all aspects, his perfectionist attention to detail and his willingness and stamina to make sure he was planning and practising enough.
What happened to lolwip anyway?
permabanned, came back saying he doesn't care anymore now that the proscene is done, got permabanned again.
Why did he get permbanned in the first place? I just assumed he disappeared.
On November 30 2012 11:40 1ntrigue wrote: Great article and agreed on all points. Flash also attracted me because of his formidability in all aspects, his perfectionist attention to detail and his willingness and stamina to make sure he was planning and practising enough.
What happened to lolwip anyway?
permabanned, came back saying he doesn't care anymore now that the proscene is done, got permabanned again.
Why did he get permbanned in the first place? I just assumed he disappeared.
Lightwip was steve man, a well-known troll/griefer back in the day.
I agree that it's more difficult to achieve a 70%+ win-rate in PvP due to the luck involved in build orders, etc.
But the argument here is that Bisu's PvP play is just not as impressive as Flash's TvT play. This is due in part to the randomness inherent in PvP, in part to Bisu's failure to advance far enough in individual leagues to play many PvP series, in part due to the depth of the rest of the SKT team, and in part to the existence of other players (BeSt, Shuttle, Horang2) who were similarly impressive in the matchup for basically all of Bisu's "reign" as best Protoss [alongside Stork]. (To clarify, I mean that it was uncommon that Bisu would be considered the undisputed best PvP player.)
Moreover, isn't ZvZ even more "coin-flippy" than PvP? How does Jaedong's long run of 70%+ ZvZ fit into your argument?
I'm pretty sure the only (or at least the main) reason Bisu's PvP wasn't as impressive as Flash's TvT is because of the inherent differences in the match ups. You almost never see someone claw their way back from a disadvantage in a PvP, or slowly grind their opponent down through superior play - not many PvP wins actually look 'impressive', because most of the time you can easily imagine another player do what the winner did and succeed in the same match, whereas in TvT it's sometimes very hard to picture some other player copy what someone like Flash was capable of doing.
ZvZ isn't really more coin-flippy than PvP because mechanical ability plays a more significant part in it than PvP, and overall ZvZ is pretty much THE match up of Jaedong because it was the match up where his greatest strengths were the key to winning. A player with superior control and attention could trump build order deficits in ZvZ a lot of the time, and would win every game where they go past early game on even terms; Jaedong had the mechanical ability to demolish anyone in ling/muta wars, and the low eco, high aggression play had always been JD's forte in general.
Also, players like Shine, Effort, ChoJJa, even Soulkey boasted much higher ZvZ winrates than anyone other than Bisu and maybe Stats ever had in PvP. I don't think anyone ever considered Soulkey to be much of a ZvZ specialist, and he was still more consistent in that match up than someone like Horang2 whom everyone considered to be 'the' PvP expert. Go figure.
Bisu was not, in fact, always the PL superstar of SKT. In fact, around the time he was the best individual league player (2007), his Proleague performance was quite bad. When he switched to "Proleague beast," his individual league results then fell off. Bisu obviously works very hard, but why did he (and not Flash or Jaedong, who were basically carrying their teams) complain of "not enough practice time"? Perhaps he wasn't (isn't?) as mentally tough (see: SC2 transition) or practice-efficient as F/J?
Also, nowhere did anyone say that Bisu had "no results"....
You're right, at the start of his career with SKT Bisu wasn't as impressive in PL; the thing about not enough practice time... I'd imagine some of it could be due to the players' different approach to the game - after all, all four of TBLS are massively different players with very different styles. And secondly, Jaedong couldn't touch Bisu's results in PL; Flash was literally the only player who was somewhat close to Bisu in PL results (with the exception of 09-10 slumps Bisu had where pretty much everyone was better than him anyway l0l). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Bisu is 'the best playarrr evarrr' or something - but he is undeniably the best Protoss player, and the Protoss player who had the most impact on Protoss strategies in Broodwar.
It was Shady Sands who said Bisu had no results, few posts above yours. The whole argument started over Shady claiming Bisu wasn't 'inventive' enough, and then following it up by basically saying he flat out sucks, which is frankly dumb.
Maybe I'm misremembering, but I always remember that series as epic because both sides played very well... either way, keep in mind that Fantasy is not actually a dumb player. In fact, Oov and Boxer think he's very smart. The times where Fantasy or any good pro look "dumb" are just mis-predictions that get out of hand; these mis-predictions happen to Flash and to other "consistent" players as well.
Of course Fantasy is smart - if anything, he is too smart for his own good and that's why he had these stupid losses - he tries cute stuff that's just too cute and dies to something very simple. :p and yes, these series were overall very good, but if you go rewatch vods now, I guarantee you, you'll see what I meant about Fantasy throwing it away. Anyway, again I'm not saying this because I want to argue that Flash isn't good or something - I just really don't think it's fair to compare two players and two races that are so different; and it's really not cool to write something that's basically "derp Bisu is bad xD" in an article about Flash. It's not really relevant at all.
I agree that it's more difficult to achieve a 70%+ win-rate in PvP due to the luck involved in build orders, etc.
But the argument here is that Bisu's PvP play is just not as impressive as Flash's TvT play. This is due in part to the randomness inherent in PvP, in part to Bisu's failure to advance far enough in individual leagues to play many PvP series, in part due to the depth of the rest of the SKT team, and in part to the existence of other players (BeSt, Shuttle, Horang2) who were similarly impressive in the matchup for basically all of Bisu's "reign" as best Protoss [alongside Stork]. (To clarify, I mean that it was uncommon that Bisu would be considered the undisputed best PvP player.)
Moreover, isn't ZvZ even more "coin-flippy" than PvP? How does Jaedong's long run of 70%+ ZvZ fit into your argument?
I'm pretty sure the only (or at least the main) reason Bisu's PvP wasn't as impressive as Flash's TvT is because of the inherent differences in the match ups. You almost never see someone claw their way back from a disadvantage in a PvP, or slowly grind their opponent down through superior play - not many PvP wins actually look 'impressive', because most of the time you can easily imagine another player do what the winner did and succeed in the same match, whereas in TvT it's sometimes very hard to picture some other player copy what someone like Flash was capable of doing.
ZvZ isn't really more coin-flippy than PvP because mechanical ability plays a more significant part in it than PvP, and overall ZvZ is pretty much THE match up of Jaedong because it was the match up where his greatest strengths were the key to winning. A player with superior control and attention could trump build order deficits in ZvZ a lot of the time, and would win every game where they go past early game on even terms; Jaedong had the mechanical ability to demolish anyone in ling/muta wars, and the low eco, high aggression play had always been JD's forte in general.
Also, players like Shine, Effort, ChoJJa, even Soulkey boasted much higher ZvZ winrates than anyone other than Bisu and maybe Stats ever had in PvP. I don't think anyone ever considered Soulkey to be much of a ZvZ specialist, and he was still more consistent in that match up than someone like Horang2 whom everyone considered to be 'the' PvP expert. Go figure.
Bisu was not, in fact, always the PL superstar of SKT. In fact, around the time he was the best individual league player (2007), his Proleague performance was quite bad. When he switched to "Proleague beast," his individual league results then fell off. Bisu obviously works very hard, but why did he (and not Flash or Jaedong, who were basically carrying their teams) complain of "not enough practice time"? Perhaps he wasn't (isn't?) as mentally tough (see: SC2 transition) or practice-efficient as F/J?
Also, nowhere did anyone say that Bisu had "no results"....
You're right, at the start of his career with SKT Bisu wasn't as impressive in PL; the thing about not enough practice time... I'd imagine some of it could be due to the players' different approach to the game - after all, all four of TBLS are massively different players with very different styles. And secondly, Jaedong couldn't touch Bisu's results in PL; Flash was literally the only player who was somewhat close to Bisu in PL results (with the exception of 09-10 slumps Bisu had where pretty much everyone was better than him anyway l0l). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Bisu is 'the best playarrr evarrr' or something - but he is undeniably the best Protoss player, and the Protoss player who had the most impact on Protoss strategies in Broodwar.
It was Shady Sands who said Bisu had no results, few posts above yours. The whole argument started over Shady claiming Bisu wasn't 'inventive' enough, and then following it up by basically saying he flat out sucks, which is frankly dumb.
Maybe I'm misremembering, but I always remember that series as epic because both sides played very well... either way, keep in mind that Fantasy is not actually a dumb player. In fact, Oov and Boxer think he's very smart. The times where Fantasy or any good pro look "dumb" are just mis-predictions that get out of hand; these mis-predictions happen to Flash and to other "consistent" players as well.
Of course Fantasy is smart - if anything, he is too smart for his own good and that's why he had these stupid losses - he tries cute stuff that's just too cute and dies to something very simple. :p and yes, these series were overall very good, but if you go rewatch vods now, I guarantee you, you'll see what I meant about Fantasy throwing it away. Anyway, again I'm not saying this because I want to argue that Flash isn't good or something - I just really don't think it's fair to compare two players and two races that are so different; and it's really not cool to write something that's basically "derp Bisu is bad xD" in an article about Flash. It's not really relevant at all.
I think the thing is here, no one is saying Bisu was bad. No one is saying he isn't good, either. Bisu is the best Protoss. The trouble is, he had two things that prevented him from becoming Flash or even Jaedong-like.
One, his strengths--mechanics, harassment--combined with his weaknesses--series play, metagaming, mental trickery--made him exceptionally ill-suited for individual leagues. It also made him very ill-suited to strengthening the metagame of his race as a whole.
I mean, basically, given a single in-game situation, Bisu would be comfortable finding an optimal way to play out of it, and then sit down and figure out to do it cleaner, faster. Flash would figure out how to do it "good enough", and then figure out how to exploit the expected counters to that play or fake the play or when to show the play on TV or in practice games. You would see this many times when Flash played someone not of his skill caliber--he would sit there and take unnecessary risks to win in the game, never content to just sit back and play safe.
For example, I distinctly remember one his riskiest builds--a 9fact tornado vs Pure in his Bigfile MSL run. He spawned cross-positions versus a 12nexus-ing protoss on the biggest map of the series, and decided to shoot for a passive third into a 3 base hanbang in response. I remember watching it and going "what the fuck Flash why aren't you doing something to slow Pure down... your push is going to get flattened." Flash got himself into a tight spot but his push came quickly enough to Pure's front door that Pure didn't have time to setup enough gateways at his 5th and 6th. When Flash locked down Pure's natural rally point it was GG. In retrospect, I now realize that Flash did this because he was intentionally showing other Protosses that he had a large range of responses to Protoss eco-cheese, and making them realize that even if they scouted a "quiet" Flash, Flash could still win handily.
In many ways, that's the difference between a great player and a great, professional, player. What it also resulted in was that Flash advanced the range of Terran responses to situations far more than any other player did, inadvertently gifting his fellow Terrans with the same sort of "bluffer's advantage."
The other reason Bisu suffered a bit has nothing to do with his playing ability. Rather, it's the fact that he was on SKT1, the most tightly managed of all the team houses, and he was basically employed as a PL sniper for the final two years of his Brood War career. In that role, Bisu didn't have a lot of opportunities to develop metagaming and series play skills, and those mental muscles predictably atrophied to the point where even Shine could fuck him over. Bisu became excellent at playing Bo1s on carefully researched maps against pre-vetted opponents--a role which left most of the metagaming to the coaching staff rather than Bisu himself.
Overall though, Bisu was a great player, no doubt. The tragedy is that he wasn't able to apply his prodigious BW talents in a better fashion. Had SKT1 had a better Protoss mentor for him to work with (IIRC Kingdom used to mentor him until he went to go broadcast), or had Bisu himself decided to apply himself to individual leagues, the story might very well be different.
Idk if this is directed at me but you already said that Bisu was the best PvP of all time and that's all I was trying to say lol. Shady Sands being as biased as he is tried to deny that fact, so effectively you've helped me thanks ^^
On November 30 2012 08:31 ArvickHero wrote: The claim that Free has better PvZ sense .. just compare the winrates. And if you try to say it's because of Bisu's harass, nope. Even Bisu recently (2011 or so) stated in an interview that he doesn't harass a lot anymore. Stork has also gone out to say that Bisu's game sense (not harassment) in PvZ was incredible, and free also admitted that Bisu's PvZ is better. Bisu is THE most innovative PvZ player, and he's done almost every single PvZ build out there.
I'll give you this. Forgot that he invented speedzeal/sair too, although the original point about the metagame thing was that Bisu pretty much invented one sole way to play PvZ--harassment and disruption--and never deviated from that path. When he tried playing other styles (his 5gate goon hanbang against some random Zerg or his 2base into double expansion vs hyvaa) he was pretty inconsistent.
5 Gate Goon is not a style, it's an allin. That's like saying "omg why doesn't Flash 8fact TvP often", because it's a shaky all-in build. And 2base into double expansion is also not a style, it's a strategic error (much like how it would be in TvP). In PvZ there are two styles: Corsair-centered play, and Ground Army-centered (not necessarily skipping sairs) play. Guess which of the two has stuck around? But anyways, Bisu has done both to success, and he's done every subset of the Corsair-centered style of play (all-in to management plays). But again, he's even stated in an interview that he doesn't center his gameplay around harassment. Rather, he focused it around scouting (via sairs, and good sense) and superior timings (in relation to building order and expansion timing). With that S+ class sense in PvZ, he dominated the matchup 80%+
In PvP, you happen to pick out around the time when Bisu was slumping the hardest, great .. I can do the same for Flash and blame him for being stagnant. Let's not forget that Bisu holds the highest PvP current and peak ELO, the matchup most like Poker since most builds can be so hard-counter. Bisu doesn't have the benefit of TvT where builds don't almost entirely decide the outcome (he's still made incredible comebacks though).
More than anyone, Bisu rarely had to face tough PvP opponents. Did he have to play Horang2 in Bo3 and Bo5 series on the same day, or play him first in set matches and then in ace? Flash did the former with Fantasy, and did the latter with Skyhigh. Bisu's ELO is pretty badly inflated by the fact that he never had to face tough opponents in the out-rounds of individual leagues--instead, he got to face opponents cherry-picked by the SKT1 coaching staff and whose practice time was diluted by having to prep against Fantasy and Best.
Bisu's had to play a shitload of PvP during the era of the 6 Dragons (2009), and came out on top of them all, when the rest of the 5 dragons looked just as good. What Flash did though was incomparable and touchable only by other bonjwas .. Anyways, everything you say can apply to Flash as well. Flash's record was inflated by "weak" TvT players! In PL his opponent's practice time were diluted by having to prepare for Stats and Action! All of the above true, but doesn't take away from Flash's record, like it doesn't for Bisu's. And like I said, PvP is the match-up most affected by luck, while TvT is least affected by luck. If Flash had to play PvP, I can guarantee that his win-rate would be at least 10% lower, because builds are just incredibly hard-counter. Simply having a 60%+ winrate in that matchup is pretty amazing.
And PvT, yea he's weak there and he himself has admitted it. But your mischaracterization, again ... you must've confused "all Terrans" with "Flash". There are a plethora of macro games where Bisu has beaten top level Terrans without some massive early-game advantage. And anyways, who the hell looked to Bisu for PvT anyways? That was Stork's role and everyone looked to him not Bisu lol.
Again, refer to the Proleague vs Indiv League point: Bisu is distinct from Jaedong or even Stork in that he never made it deep into an individual league after early 2009. His PvT belies this point because when he played PvT in proleague, the SKT1 coaches made sure he was playing on massively P>T maps (Medusa, Aztec, Neo Chain Reaction.) You can't really use that as proof that Bisu's solid macro games mean he wasn't playing PvT badly.
But I will admit that Bisu never became the torchbearer there. And that's just as bad, because Stork had way too much self-doubt to actually be one of the guys that takes unnecessary risks just to expand the range of his race's metagame possibilities. I firmly believe Bisu had that sort of mental strength, but for whatever reason--maybe the conservative SKT1 practice culture? Although Oov was the original inventor of metagame oriented play so I doubt it--Bisu never felt comfortable being an innovator there.
For a while, I thought Kal could be the one to bear the PvT torch, but he seemed to play himself into a corner all the time whenever he faced S-class TvP (Flash, and later Fantasy.)
One of my deepest regrets about BW ending so soon is that Protosses in the PvT matchup never got to tap into their race's full potential. Other than Pusan popularizing Arbiters in 2005 and Stork's perfection of reaver-->carrier, no Toss ever really innovated enough to truly shift the matchup metagame in P's favor, which is too bad, really.
There's also FS, Circuit Breaker, Jade, La Mancha, Icarus, Empire of the Sun, Benzene, Outsider, Destination, etc etc .. why cherry pick? (also, Neo Medusa has TvP in the winning record)
Protosses had the upper hand against Terrans in general near the end (10-12) BW. There were many, many more "good PvT players" than "good TvP players". Protosses were also considered to be the best race to be played in PL for quite some time. In fact, when Flash dominated, not many other Terrans were doing that well. So maybe Bisu wasn't the dominant figurehead like Flash was, but it sure seemed to me that the Protoss race as a whole was doing better than the Terran race.
On November 30 2012 18:21 Vasoline73 wrote: The biggest thing with Bisu was the lack of individual league runs later in his career. He was a beast in PL and even I, a mild Bisu antifan, always hoped he'd make another deep run into a MSL or OSL (just because I wanted to see more Bisu v Flash Bo5s.)
With SC2 and HOTS changing everything, it makes me sad that I was ever an antifan of anyone . I wish I could go back and watch BW PL, OSL, MSL for the rest of my life .
I feel the exact same way you do. I get heartache each time I think about the games I missed ((
On November 30 2012 08:31 ArvickHero wrote: The claim that Free has better PvZ sense .. just compare the winrates. And if you try to say it's because of Bisu's harass, nope. Even Bisu recently (2011 or so) stated in an interview that he doesn't harass a lot anymore. Stork has also gone out to say that Bisu's game sense (not harassment) in PvZ was incredible, and free also admitted that Bisu's PvZ is better. Bisu is THE most innovative PvZ player, and he's done almost every single PvZ build out there.
I'll give you this. Forgot that he invented speedzeal/sair too, although the original point about the metagame thing was that Bisu pretty much invented one sole way to play PvZ--harassment and disruption--and never deviated from that path. When he tried playing other styles (his 5gate goon hanbang against some random Zerg or his 2base into double expansion vs hyvaa) he was pretty inconsistent.
5 Gate Goon is not a style, it's an allin. That's like saying "omg why doesn't Flash 8fact TvP often", because it's a shaky all-in build. And 2base into double expansion is also not a style, it's a strategic error (much like how it would be in TvP). In PvZ there are two styles: Corsair-centered play, and Ground Army-centered (not necessarily skipping sairs) play. Guess which of the two has stuck around? But anyways, Bisu has done both to success, and he's done every subset of the Corsair-centered style of play (all-in to management plays). But again, he's even stated in an interview that he doesn't center his gameplay around harassment. Rather, he focused it around scouting (via sairs, and good sense) and superior timings (in relation to building order and expansion timing). With that S+ class sense in PvZ, he dominated the matchup 80%+
I'm not sure where you get the feeling that he focused his PvZ around scouting and superior timings. Bisu never was "S+ class" at sense and identifying timings (those honors would go to Best, and later, Rain) but rather was good at forcing timings open through his superior multitask and harass. Even if he says he diesn't center his gameplay around harassment, that doesn't matter since what he shows in his games proves otherwise.
In PvP, you happen to pick out around the time when Bisu was slumping the hardest, great .. I can do the same for Flash and blame him for being stagnant. Let's not forget that Bisu holds the highest PvP current and peak ELO, the matchup most like Poker since most builds can be so hard-counter. Bisu doesn't have the benefit of TvT where builds don't almost entirely decide the outcome (he's still made incredible comebacks though).
More than anyone, Bisu rarely had to face tough PvP opponents. Did he have to play Horang2 in Bo3 and Bo5 series on the same day, or play him first in set matches and then in ace? Flash did the former with Fantasy, and did the latter with Skyhigh. Bisu's ELO is pretty badly inflated by the fact that he never had to face tough opponents in the out-rounds of individual leagues--instead, he got to face opponents cherry-picked by the SKT1 coaching staff and whose practice time was diluted by having to prep against Fantasy and Best.
Bisu's had to play a shitload of PvP during the era of the 6 Dragons (2009), and came out on top of them all, when the rest of the 5 dragons looked just as good. What Flash did though was incomparable and touchable only by other bonjwas .. Anyways, everything you say can apply to Flash as well. Flash's record was inflated by "weak" TvT players! In PL his opponent's practice time were diluted by having to prepare for Stats and Action! All of the above true, but doesn't take away from Flash's record, like it doesn't for Bisu's. And like I said, PvP is the match-up most affected by luck, while TvT is least affected by luck. If Flash had to play PvP, I can guarantee that his win-rate would be at least 10% lower, because builds are just incredibly hard-counter. Simply having a 60%+ winrate in that matchup is pretty amazing.
Flash's beat every good TvTer when it mattered in his long runs through individual leagues. He beat Fantasy, the #2 Terran, in a Bo3 and then a Bo5 in the same day, with an overall record of 5-2, including one match where Flash pulled out of a disastrous early game with the best defensive positional warfare and sheer mental willpower I have ever seen in a professional gamer, period. No Brood War player can boast of that achievement in his mirror matchup at all, but to Flash, those sorts of things were commonplace.
I'm also not sure where you get your assertion that PvP is a luck-based matchup, or why it even matters. If you're simply stating that different openers can hard counter each other, then ZvZ (and even TvT) is likewise a luck-based matchup, yet Jaedong was able to get an even higher mirror MU winrate than Bisu was.
And PvT, yea he's weak there and he himself has admitted it. But your mischaracterization, again ... you must've confused "all Terrans" with "Flash". There are a plethora of macro games where Bisu has beaten top level Terrans without some massive early-game advantage. And anyways, who the hell looked to Bisu for PvT anyways? That was Stork's role and everyone looked to him not Bisu lol.
Again, refer to the Proleague vs Indiv League point: Bisu is distinct from Jaedong or even Stork in that he never made it deep into an individual league after early 2009. His PvT belies this point because when he played PvT in proleague, the SKT1 coaches made sure he was playing on massively P>T maps (Medusa, Aztec, Neo Chain Reaction.) You can't really use that as proof that Bisu's solid macro games mean he wasn't playing PvT badly.
But I will admit that Bisu never became the torchbearer there. And that's just as bad, because Stork had way too much self-doubt to actually be one of the guys that takes unnecessary risks just to expand the range of his race's metagame possibilities. I firmly believe Bisu had that sort of mental strength, but for whatever reason--maybe the conservative SKT1 practice culture? Although Oov was the original inventor of metagame oriented play so I doubt it--Bisu never felt comfortable being an innovator there.
For a while, I thought Kal could be the one to bear the PvT torch, but he seemed to play himself into a corner all the time whenever he faced S-class TvP (Flash, and later Fantasy.)
One of my deepest regrets about BW ending so soon is that Protosses in the PvT matchup never got to tap into their race's full potential. Other than Pusan popularizing Arbiters in 2005 and Stork's perfection of reaver-->carrier, no Toss ever really innovated enough to truly shift the matchup metagame in P's favor, which is too bad, really.
There's also FS, Circuit Breaker, Jade, La Mancha, Icarus, Empire of the Sun, Benzene, Outsider, Destination, etc etc .. why cherry pick? (also, Neo Medusa has TvP in the winning record)
Protosses had the upper hand against Terrans in general near the end (10-12) BW. There were many, many more "good PvT players" than "good TvP players". Protosses were also considered to be the best race to be played in PL for quite some time. In fact, when Flash dominated, not many other Terrans were doing that well. So maybe Bisu wasn't the dominant figurehead like Flash was, but it sure seemed to me that the Protoss race as a whole was doing better than the Terran race.
No cherry picking there--those were the most common maps Bisu got sent out on. Neo Medusa is a terrible map for Terran, even if the stats say otherwise. Just look at how many Terrans were sent on it in PL. Hint: it's a lot less than for other races.
P>T near the end of BW doesn't mean that they were able to tap into their race's full potential. You could just as well say that part of the reason tosses were doing so well was because mapmakers were consistently minimizing map elements that enabled Terrans to beat Protoss, like buildable center ground and an easy third.
And even if P>T, it doesn't mean Bisu ever really figured out how to play his race well. If you look at Bisu's two games vs Flash in Group D of the ABC MSL Ro32, he somehow lost the game in spite of having a lucky scout of Flash's initial proxy rax, forcing a cancel, turning into a macro advantage that led to an unchallenged carrier transition on Monte Cristo of all maps, where the mapmakers balanced the map's carrier-friendly terrain by drastically shortening the ground push distance. Somehow Bisu lost that game when Stork, Kal, or even Stats would have easily won it. I firmly believe that while Bisu was incredible multitasker and did well in aggressive, free-flowing games, he had only an average ability to achieve the careful give-and-take of positional warfare, which is the other half of Protoss gameplay. I'll touch more on this (not on in the next section of this blog series--not on Bisu, but on position in RTS and real war.
Finally, nothing addresses my initial point that by sticking to PL, Bisu was able to cherry-pick what maps he played, which is inherently a huge boost. Bisu was able to avoid maps that didn't favor his multitask-oriented style, and avoid maps that didn't favor Protoss. Hence, any direct citation of his ELO achievements and record has to account for that fact, as well as the fact that in general mapmakers tried being nice to Protoss after the Tears of the Moon debacle.
You're incredibly biased and ill-informed for someone attempting to write an analytical post. I don't want to waste my time digging through the past just to continue this argument when you keep making things up out of thin air just to fuel your inner anti-fan; I'm just going to sit here and laugh at your claim of Best and Rain being the 'game-sense' Protoss players over Bisu in BW. Hahaha, that's pretty hilarious.
edit: By.Rain in BW S+ class at game sense. Hahahahaha.
Bisu's shortcomings, imo, can be perfectly illustrated by one series (and the last game in particular):
Bisu v Iris, Avalon MSL Quarter Finals, 2009
This is how I described it in the LR thread back then (deciding game):
I think Bisu played VERY VERY well.
I think Iris played VERY well.
The game was fucking amazing... however. Watch it closely; Bisu was in total control... Iris is basically down to one mining base and is holding on by the skin of his teeth. Iris drops on 7 + 8 and Bisu clear as fucking day goes "Meh, fuck it, I'm just going to steam roll him" and presses into the base... Iris plays VERY well and soaks the attack all the way into his factory line.. this was a fucking killer hold.. no doubt... but Bisu lost his ENTIRE economy for that. That is POOR decision making... no matter how good the hold was from Iris you wont convince me that it was his killer play that won that game rather than Bisu's ONE MASSIVE mistake in ignoring that drop that undid ALL of his fucking great play until that point...
Credit where credit is due.. no doubt... Lesser Terrans would have melted under the pressure... but Bisu was in control and tossed it away in arrogance.
I am a protoss "fan boy" from the game's beginnings, and I had been hoping that Bisu would ascend to the level of player that the other races had seen; that unstoppable monster. But he was not it. He was an amazing player, no doubt. But Flash and Bisu are worlds apart (Flash and just about anyone were worlds apart though, so it's not really a reflection on Bisu). In my view, the only player who held the same air of invincibility at any time was Oov in his 'prime'.
Did you really just say By.Sun had better game sense than Bisu? Kid had lots of potential, but he hemorrhaged wins that almost any pro could have secured after x point because of a distinct lack of game sense. He never reached his potential in BW or got anywhere close to it. Best just bludgeoned people to death, I don't know how on earth that qualifies as game sense.
It's really misinformed/biased to say garbage like that. What a farce.
EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/c/ce/Flash17.jpg)
Bisu, you'll see that Flash was much more avant-garde and varied in his choice of pre-set builds and in-game reactions. Flash was the one who invented the "14cc into anything from fast 5rax +1 to turtle and take the map" style of TvZ, which drastically pushed the TvZ metagame in his favor; his wide range of responses to Protoss greed also was the single reason why Protosses became afraid to 12nex versus him.
) 
![[image loading]](http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/3953/shutdowneverything.jpg)
