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Brett
Australia3820 Posts
You should probably leave the Bisu stuff out of your post as it detracts from the person/issue you're actually writing about, and really just comes across as your opinion of Bisu rather than an analysis of play/style/meta like the rest of your piece. And Jealous, it's not a misuse of Bonjwa at all... Flash definitely fits the bill. | ||
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Kaal
Djibouti2514 Posts
Standard t_co blog. | ||
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Crunchums
United States11143 Posts
On November 29 2012 17:18 Shady Sands wrote: FYI, that is the single reason why I disliked Bisu so much--the guy never pushed the metagame of Protoss forward this is hilarious without context | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
The claim that Free has better PvZ sense .. just compare the winrates. And if you try to say it's because of Bisu's harass, nope. Even Bisu recently (2011 or so) stated in an interview that he doesn't harass a lot anymore. Stork has also gone out to say that Bisu's game sense (not harassment) in PvZ was incredible, and free also admitted that Bisu's PvZ is better. Bisu is THE most innovative PvZ player, and he's done almost every single PvZ build out there. In PvP, you happen to pick out around the time when Bisu was slumping the hardest, great .. I can do the same for Flash and blame him for being stagnant. Let's not forget that Bisu holds the highest PvP current and peak ELO, the matchup most like Poker since most builds can be so hard-counter. Bisu doesn't have the benefit of TvT where builds don't almost entirely decide the outcome (he's still made incredible comebacks though). And PvT, yea he's weak there and he himself has admitted it. But your mischaracterization, again ... you must've confused "all Terrans" with "Flash". There are a plethora of macro games where Bisu has beaten top level Terrans without some massive early-game advantage. And anyways, who the hell looked to Bisu for PvT anyways? That was Stork's role and everyone looked to him not Bisu lol. It's clear you know what you're talking about with Flash, so just stick with that. Like said above, you talking about Bisu just detracts from your article and casts doubts on your knowledge. | ||
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Jealous
10124 Posts
On November 30 2012 07:39 Brett wrote: @OP You should probably leave the Bisu stuff out of your post as it detracts from the person/issue you're actually writing about, and really just comes across as your opinion of Bisu rather than an analysis of play/style/meta like the rest of your piece. And Jealous, it's not a misuse of Bonjwa at all... Flash definitely fits the bill. Flash is God. Boxer, Oov, Nada, and Savior are Bonjwa. That is indisputable fact. Flash can't be Bonjwa for many reasons but I'll list 2 of the major ones: 1.The Korean scene did not acknowledge him as such and never did, only in speculation. 2. He had rivals close to his skill level that gave him too much trouble during what would otherwise be his reign, with them taking OSL/MSL titles more consistently than during the previous Bonjwa (iirc). | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
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Mothra
United States1448 Posts
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Jealous
10124 Posts
On November 30 2012 08:45 ArvickHero wrote: Don't be ridiculous. Flash was God, a tier above Bonjwa Hence why calling him Bonjwa is incorrect. Saying "He was God, may as well be Bonjwa too" does not detract from this fact. | ||
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Jeremy Reimer
Canada968 Posts
This game, Jaedong got burrow research and some speedlings right before that timing when Flash would send out a small group of mnm, and set a trap outside of Flash's base. This was huge! If Flash played like normal Flash, then he'd walk over those those lings and lose his first group of mnm without achieving his goal of delaying the mutalisks, which would then arrive much faster than planned. It was actually the first time anyone tried this. It wasn't just a random burrow and hope, it was Jaedong working out a weakness in Flash's style and then saving it for a special situation in the finals. Absolutely incredible. His entire build was designed to be able to disable Flash's mutalisk 'defence' with zerglings, then muta harass Flash before he was ready, and have the hatchery count to follow through with zerglings for the win. What made it more awesome is that Flash either sensed it or was aware that there was an exploitable weakness in his style and reverted to his older style against an opponent that he knew was good enough to exploit such weaknesses. So although we saw burrowed speedlings getting no action, there was a lot more going on there than that. Oh my god, I remember that game. I remember it so well. I both hated and admired Flash for taking apart Jaedong's burrowed zergling trap like that. I'll say this for Flash, he figured out how to win all the mindgames. Damn you, Flash. If it weren't for you, Jaedong would have been the Last Bonjwa. | ||
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ore0z
Romania161 Posts
On November 30 2012 08:41 Jealous wrote: Flash can't be Bonjwa for many reasons but I'll list 2 of the major ones: 1.The Korean scene did not acknowledge him as such and never did, only in speculation. 2. He had rivals close to his skill level that gave him too much trouble during what would otherwise be his reign, with them taking OSL/MSL titles more consistently than during the previous Bonjwa (iirc). He was labelled Bonjwa in Korea http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=152052 Q With this victory, you’ve risen to Bonjwa status. A Receiving a title like that is quite an honor but compared to the players who rose to that level before, I think I’m still lacking. Though it’s nice if fans call me that, I still think “Ultimate Weapon” is better and more appropriate for me right now. Number 2 was also addressed in the original post. God originally started off as a joke but eventually caught on http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=152244 | ||
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Ettick
United States2434 Posts
I think Flash doesn't have maphacks though, he has mind reading powers Really nice article though, always love write-ups about BW also "year of the rapist" gave me an idea for a new flash nickname: therapist | ||
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Jealous
10124 Posts
On November 30 2012 09:37 ore0z wrote: He was labelled Bonjwa in Korea http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=152052 Number 2 was also addressed in the original post. God originally started off as a joke but eventually caught on http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=152244 Thank you for the informative post. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
Do you agree? | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On November 30 2012 08:31 ArvickHero wrote: The claim that Free has better PvZ sense .. just compare the winrates. And if you try to say it's because of Bisu's harass, nope. Even Bisu recently (2011 or so) stated in an interview that he doesn't harass a lot anymore. Stork has also gone out to say that Bisu's game sense (not harassment) in PvZ was incredible, and free also admitted that Bisu's PvZ is better. Bisu is THE most innovative PvZ player, and he's done almost every single PvZ build out there. I'll give you this. Forgot that he invented speedzeal/sair too, although the original point about the metagame thing was that Bisu pretty much invented one sole way to play PvZ--harassment and disruption--and never deviated from that path. When he tried playing other styles (his 5gate goon hanbang against some random Zerg or his 2base into double expansion vs hyvaa) he was pretty inconsistent. In PvP, you happen to pick out around the time when Bisu was slumping the hardest, great .. I can do the same for Flash and blame him for being stagnant. Let's not forget that Bisu holds the highest PvP current and peak ELO, the matchup most like Poker since most builds can be so hard-counter. Bisu doesn't have the benefit of TvT where builds don't almost entirely decide the outcome (he's still made incredible comebacks though). More than anyone, Bisu rarely had to face tough PvP opponents. Did he have to play Horang2 in Bo3 and Bo5 series on the same day, or play him first in set matches and then in ace? Flash did the former with Fantasy, and did the latter with Skyhigh. Bisu's ELO is pretty badly inflated by the fact that he never had to face tough opponents in the out-rounds of individual leagues--instead, he got to face opponents cherry-picked by the SKT1 coaching staff and whose practice time was diluted by having to prep against Fantasy and Best. And PvT, yea he's weak there and he himself has admitted it. But your mischaracterization, again ... you must've confused "all Terrans" with "Flash". There are a plethora of macro games where Bisu has beaten top level Terrans without some massive early-game advantage. And anyways, who the hell looked to Bisu for PvT anyways? That was Stork's role and everyone looked to him not Bisu lol. Again, refer to the Proleague vs Indiv League point:  Bisu is distinct from  Jaedong or even Stork in that he never made it deep into an individual league after early 2009. His PvT belies this point because when he played PvT in proleague, the SKT1 coaches made sure he was playing on massively P>T maps (Medusa, Aztec, Neo Chain Reaction.) You can't really use that as proof that Bisu's solid macro games mean he wasn't playing PvT badly.But I will admit that Bisu never became the torchbearer there. And that's just as bad, because Stork had way too much self-doubt to actually be one of the guys that takes unnecessary risks just to expand the range of his race's metagame possibilities. I firmly believe Bisu had that sort of mental strength, but for whatever reason--maybe the conservative SKT1 practice culture? Although Oov was the original inventor of metagame oriented play so I doubt it--Bisu never felt comfortable being an innovator there. For a while, I thought Kal could be the one to bear the PvT torch, but he seemed to play himself into a corner all the time whenever he faced S-class TvP (Flash, and later Fantasy.)One of my deepest regrets about BW ending so soon is that Protosses in the PvT matchup never got to tap into their race's full potential. Other than Pusan popularizing Arbiters in 2005 and Stork's perfection of reaver-->carrier, no Toss ever really innovated enough to truly shift the matchup metagame in P's favor, which is too bad, really. It's clear you know what you're talking about with Flash, so just stick with that. Like said above, you talking about Bisu just detracts from your article and casts doubts on your knowledge. Good points. Edited the OP. | ||
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Jealous
10124 Posts
Although I still stand by the logic that he should be referred to as God and not Bonjwa, I have no option but to retract my statement of him NOT being regarded as Bonjwa by the Korean scene, because that article's translation seemed to directly assert this fact. I would like to note that it does seem that while there is no debate about the previous Bonjwa titles (probably because they were handed post-dominanace for all but Savior), there always seemed to be debate about Flash taking the title. That's might just be on TL and through choice netizen translations though. | ||
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Jealous
10124 Posts
Ignoring the obvious exclusion of Stork in their finals matchES... ClubDay MSL and the GOM Classic S2, in the latter two he had to face JangBi in back-to-back finals and Free in a Bo5 before that (this was a great series imo, free's control is well-suited for PvP). Knocking him for not having tough PvP opponents, if you had already considered these facts, raises the questions: who IS a tough opponent then, and how did Bisu avoid ever playing them a decent number of times (PL or otherwise)? | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On November 30 2012 11:30 Jealous wrote: Wait, @ your response to ArvickHero, did you really just say Bisu never had to face tough PvP opponents?!? Ignoring the obvious exclusion of Stork in their finals match, you seem to forget ClubDay MSL and the GOM Classic S2, where he had to face JangBi in back-to-back finals and Free in a Bo5 before that (this was a great series imo, free's control is well-suited for PvP). Knocking him for not having tough PvP opponents, if you had already considered these facts, raises the questions: who IS a tough opponent then, and how did Bisu avoid ever playing them a decent number of times (PL or otherwise)? Bisu fought Stork in 2007; Clubday was in 2008; GOM Classic was in early 09. I was talking about early 09 and after. | ||
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Jealous
10124 Posts
On November 30 2012 11:33 Shady Sands wrote: Bisu fought Stork in 2007; Clubday was in 2008; GOM Classic was in early 09. I was talking about early 09 and after. WCG 2009? It's true that since then he lost to Stork 5 straight, and had a less stellar record in PvP in general, but that doesn't detract from his title of being the best in it, does it? He won possibly the most important PvP matches in the latter half of BW's time as a televised game, unlike most other tosses (obviously). The fact that there were very few notable PvP series after the age of dragons shouldn't be used against him as if it were his choice or something. | ||
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
More than anyone, Bisu never had to face tough PvP opponents. Did he have to play Horang2 in Bo3 and Bo5 series on the same day, or play him first in set matches and then in ace? Flash did the former with Fantasy, and did the latter with Skyhigh. Bisu's ELO is pretty badly inflated by the fact that he never had to face tough opponents in the out-rounds of individual leagues--instead, he got to face opponents cherry-picked by the SKT1 coaching staff and whose practice time was diluted by having to prep against Fantasy and Best. One of Bisu's Peak ELO was from the Clubday MSL and Gom Season 2, where he defeated Jangbi twice in two different Bo5s, not to mention playing many other notable Protoss players of the time, such as Stork and Free. Bisu's first period of dominance had him beating Stork in a Bo5 to win the MSL. Bisu was an absolute Monster PvP during those time periods. You sure like to make up shit about Bisu. Oh, apparently your response to counter evidence is "Well, I'm pretending that time period didn't exist!" Nevermind then. | ||
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1ntrigue
Australia948 Posts
What happened to lolwip anyway? | ||
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