On November 30 2012 11:40 1ntrigue wrote: Great article and agreed on all points. Flash also attracted me because of his formidability in all aspects, his perfectionist attention to detail and his willingness and stamina to make sure he was planning and practising enough.
What happened to lolwip anyway?
permabanned, came back saying he doesn't care anymore now that the proscene is done, got permabanned again.
On November 30 2012 08:41 Jealous wrote: Flash can't be Bonjwa for many reasons but I'll list 2 of the major ones:
1.The Korean scene did not acknowledge him as such and never did, only in speculation.
2. He had rivals close to his skill level that gave him too much trouble during what would otherwise be his reign, with them taking OSL/MSL titles more consistently than during the previous Bonjwa (iirc).
Q With this victory, you’ve risen to Bonjwa status. A Receiving a title like that is quite an honor but compared to the players who rose to that level before, I think I’m still lacking. Though it’s nice if fans call me that, I still think “Ultimate Weapon” is better and more appropriate for me right now.
Although I still stand by the logic that he should be referred to as God and not Bonjwa, I have no option but to retract my statement of him NOT being regarded as Bonjwa by the Korean scene, because that article's translation seemed to directly assert this fact. I would like to note that it does seem that while there is no debate about the previous Bonjwa titles (probably because they were handed post-dominanace for all but Savior), there always seemed to be debate about Flash taking the title. That's might just be on TL and through choice netizen translations though.
This makes zero sense. You're saying Flash is not Bonjwa because there is debate about Flash being bonjwa--debate which you are stirring up? So since you disbelieve Flash is Bonjwa then Flash is not Bonjwa? dafuq?
On November 30 2012 11:40 1ntrigue wrote: Great article and agreed on all points. Flash also attracted me because of his formidability in all aspects, his perfectionist attention to detail and his willingness and stamina to make sure he was planning and practising enough.
What happened to lolwip anyway?
permabanned, came back saying he doesn't care anymore now that the proscene is done, got permabanned again.
Writing this article knowing Wippy has the chance of reading it and being unable to post was quite amusing
On November 30 2012 08:41 Jealous wrote: Flash can't be Bonjwa for many reasons but I'll list 2 of the major ones:
1.The Korean scene did not acknowledge him as such and never did, only in speculation.
2. He had rivals close to his skill level that gave him too much trouble during what would otherwise be his reign, with them taking OSL/MSL titles more consistently than during the previous Bonjwa (iirc).
Q With this victory, you’ve risen to Bonjwa status. A Receiving a title like that is quite an honor but compared to the players who rose to that level before, I think I’m still lacking. Though it’s nice if fans call me that, I still think “Ultimate Weapon” is better and more appropriate for me right now.
Although I still stand by the logic that he should be referred to as God and not Bonjwa, I have no option but to retract my statement of him NOT being regarded as Bonjwa by the Korean scene, because that article's translation seemed to directly assert this fact. I would like to note that it does seem that while there is no debate about the previous Bonjwa titles (probably because they were handed post-dominanace for all but Savior), there always seemed to be debate about Flash taking the title. That's might just be on TL and through choice netizen translations though.
This makes zero sense. You're saying Flash is not Bonjwa because there is debate about Flash being bonjwa--debate which you are stirring up? So since you disbelieve Flash is Bonjwa then Flash is not Bonjwa? dafuq?
Wow chill bro ^^ I obviously meant not including myself, and a few years ago when the debate was still around. The entire concept of Bonjwa made it seem like it could only be granted when there was no doubt at all about it - so people doubting back then (and not just me, haha) would by definition not make him Bonjwa.
Anyways, it's time to drop this line of conversation. I already said I had no choice but to agree - why would you try to stir up more shit? I guess it should have been expected considering you just HAD to have me post "i was wrong u were rite, i am dumb u r smart" after I had pretty much expressed non-argument to ore0z's post. You don't have to have the last word to win ya know ^^;
On November 30 2012 08:41 Jealous wrote: Flash can't be Bonjwa for many reasons but I'll list 2 of the major ones:
1.The Korean scene did not acknowledge him as such and never did, only in speculation.
2. He had rivals close to his skill level that gave him too much trouble during what would otherwise be his reign, with them taking OSL/MSL titles more consistently than during the previous Bonjwa (iirc).
Q With this victory, you’ve risen to Bonjwa status. A Receiving a title like that is quite an honor but compared to the players who rose to that level before, I think I’m still lacking. Though it’s nice if fans call me that, I still think “Ultimate Weapon” is better and more appropriate for me right now.
Although I still stand by the logic that he should be referred to as God and not Bonjwa, I have no option but to retract my statement of him NOT being regarded as Bonjwa by the Korean scene, because that article's translation seemed to directly assert this fact. I would like to note that it does seem that while there is no debate about the previous Bonjwa titles (probably because they were handed post-dominanace for all but Savior), there always seemed to be debate about Flash taking the title. That's might just be on TL and through choice netizen translations though.
This makes zero sense. You're saying Flash is not Bonjwa because there is debate about Flash being bonjwa--debate which you are stirring up? So since you disbelieve Flash is Bonjwa then Flash is not Bonjwa? dafuq?
Wow chill bro ^^ I obviously meant not including myself, and a few years ago when the debate was still around. The entire concept of Bonjwa made it seem like it could only be granted when there was no doubt at all about it - so people doubting back then (and not just me, haha) would by definition not make him Bonjwa.
Anyways, it's time to drop this line of conversation. I already said I had no choice but to agree - why would you try to stir up more shit? I guess it should have been expected considering you just HAD to have me post "i was wrong u were rite, i am dumb u r smart" after I had pretty much expressed non-argument to ore0z's post. You don't have to have the last word to win ya know ^^;
No prob. The bonjwa argument really sticks in my craw because I got banned from TL for it.
On November 30 2012 08:41 Jealous wrote: Flash can't be Bonjwa for many reasons but I'll list 2 of the major ones:
1.The Korean scene did not acknowledge him as such and never did, only in speculation.
2. He had rivals close to his skill level that gave him too much trouble during what would otherwise be his reign, with them taking OSL/MSL titles more consistently than during the previous Bonjwa (iirc).
Q With this victory, you’ve risen to Bonjwa status. A Receiving a title like that is quite an honor but compared to the players who rose to that level before, I think I’m still lacking. Though it’s nice if fans call me that, I still think “Ultimate Weapon” is better and more appropriate for me right now.
Although I still stand by the logic that he should be referred to as God and not Bonjwa, I have no option but to retract my statement of him NOT being regarded as Bonjwa by the Korean scene, because that article's translation seemed to directly assert this fact. I would like to note that it does seem that while there is no debate about the previous Bonjwa titles (probably because they were handed post-dominanace for all but Savior), there always seemed to be debate about Flash taking the title. That's might just be on TL and through choice netizen translations though.
This makes zero sense. You're saying Flash is not Bonjwa because there is debate about Flash being bonjwa--debate which you are stirring up? So since you disbelieve Flash is Bonjwa then Flash is not Bonjwa? dafuq?
Wow chill bro ^^ I obviously meant not including myself, and a few years ago when the debate was still around. The entire concept of Bonjwa made it seem like it could only be granted when there was no doubt at all about it - so people doubting back then (and not just me, haha) would by definition not make him Bonjwa.
Anyways, it's time to drop this line of conversation. I already said I had no choice but to agree - why would you try to stir up more shit? I guess it should have been expected considering you just HAD to have me post "i was wrong u were rite, i am dumb u r smart" after I had pretty much expressed non-argument to ore0z's post. You don't have to have the last word to win ya know ^^;
No prob. The bonjwa argument really sticks in my craw because I got banned from TL for it.
Why are you saying Bisu's PvP opponents weren't all that good, then bring in Fantasy as an example of a 'strong' TvT opponent Flash had to play against, lol. Up until the last PL season, Fantasy was pretty much the definition of inconsistent in TvT, and his TvT style was always the scissors to Flash's rock.
a response in that thread that koreans also know of flash's sensu + Show Spoiler +
On May 14 2011 02:32 ZnocK wrote: Since your korean you should know. English community isnt the only one whos saying flash "map-hacks." The korean commentators (who i believe has more experience in the game than almost anyone in here) gets amazed and even talks about flash having a hidden door way or trick mirror to see his opponents move. Ofcourse their kidding but even thats saying alot since they have to be unbaised towards all the player.
- luck because had Leta planted the CC straight at the nat, he will not be able to delay the econ advantage and will be behind. He will damage the CC enough but not significantly, Leta will simply have pulled scvs until the first marine was out and that would have been the end of the strategy and flash will definitely be behind. If it happened, Leta will have a good econ off 2 bases to get army and wall off while flash will be in one base, one factory, and with the risky strategy not doing its work of delaying Leta's econ.
As seen in one of the interviews or another, flash calculates his scout time. Which means in his practice game he calculated that even if leta was @ 7 oclock he would still be at an advantage. Thats what he been saying for a year now. He always scouts only the expo area in 4 player maps in calculation that even if he misses he would still be at a even. FYI this scouting method has been talked about in one of the program that flash was in, maybe one of the oldboy episodes or maybe the back-talk show in korean air osl part of the episode. (The korean commentator was very speechless at this scouting in this game too)
People saying that Flash uses "hack" isnt new at all and its not only in the english community. The korean commentators (Who has to be unbaised towards the players and has more experience in broodwar than almost anyone in here) even talked about, ofcourse in a joking manner, flash using trick mirrors or hidden panel of doorway to see his opponents move. They been saying playing against him is like having vision on for quiet some time now. Flash gets wins alot of games, and some might call it luck, some might call it practicing alot and as people say "luck is part of the skill"
Finally Havn't you ever put your self in the players shoe. Going up against someone in a live stage where everygame counts towards either winning a starleague or a proleague match. How there is 1000 or more stradegies in each match up. One can cheese, one can FE, one can time push, one can eco cheese. Out of all these Flash usually counters his opponent pretty well and even some of his games, he counters his opponent so well that it looks like he was hacking. Some people might take it too far but you gotta admit that Flash has one if not the best star sense in progaming scene. Also this is a site dedicated to e-sports, and in any "sports" related discussion there are always someone who has a passision for a player or a team.
FYI. im going to include some games that shows Flashs "starsense" and the korean commentators talking about it.
3. Flash vs Light Flash's scv makes a u-turn and scouts lights barracks. Also his scv scouts starport even tho he saw proxy fac with vultures just coming out. Even the mbc coach called it earmaphacking (where the players hears the audience) which is untrue since the booth is sound proof. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/36423_Flash_vs_Light
MBCGame manager Hero Ha Tae Ki states that after discussing with the company he will launch a complaint about 7th game against KT Rolster which is now under controversy as 'ear map'.
...
At game played on Match Point Flash (KT. Terran) scouted the Light's proxy Barrracks with the SCV. However, this became a problem because SCV had moved perpendicularly during the course of its scouting due to the audiences' loud cry.
"Light also said that he had heard the audiences' roar. Proxy Barracks could have beaten Flash's tactics," manager Ha Tae Ki stressed, "today's game is not just simple 1 win."
...
MBCGame can make a complaint to Korean eSport Federation within 24 hours but the result of the mass does not change. But manager Ha emphasizes, "the result cannot be changed. But it must be revealed if the opponent has heard the sounds of the audience. Also we must recover Light's dignity."
On March 10 2010 16:14 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Flash not even making turrets. HE KNOWS ITS LURKERS! NOO A SECOND BUNKER SHIT!
On March 10 2010 16:14 thunk wrote: Holy shit Flash is telepathic.
On March 10 2010 16:14 TwoToneTerran wrote: FUCKING
MAPHACK
TERRAN
On March 10 2010 16:19 Vivi57 wrote: FLASH IS A GOD
On March 10 2010 16:34 Slow Motion wrote: Stop trying to apply common logic to Flash. He has evolved beyond that and is now omniscient.
On March 10 2010 16:42 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: I was watching the PLU stream and the commentator said that if Flash played like this on ICCUP, he'd probably be banned for map hacking haha.
On March 10 2010 17:31 Lyriene wrote: Q: You showed a great defensive ability against Calm A: It was based on my sense. I built more Bunkers before checking with my scan. I trusted my feelings so I ended up making a lot of Bunkers, and my opponent ended up doing an all-in. I think it’s been a while since my sense was right on the spot.
On March 12 2010 12:51 sob3k wrote: Just made this...
artosis went ape shit over his play in the osl finals vs movie in his scforall weekly (still up on youtube) but flash effortlessly deflected the gas steal by opting to have 7 scvs mine gas at the natural rather than a more typical responses (kill the assimulator, or just be more delayed with natural gas mining) AND then goes scouts a proxy robo without seeing anything too suspicous (i.e. his scv left movie's base before the proxy pylon went down; often you suspect proxy if you don't see a third pylon or you just see a blocked ramp).
there are others too, but I forget some off the top of my head.
but tl;dr flash consistently had "wtf" moments on top of his simply sheer dominance of the scene. He was God.
*edit* real quick hr also constantly whipped out random unique-ish cheeses at times to simply rape his opponent, with his original monty hall cheese vs bisu to the 7 rax vs protoss (used against best in proleague on jade, etc) to even a 5 rax on dreamliner in osl final, though that was one wonky game. Not to mention cheesing at the right times too (bbs vs stork to win osl gold).
not to mention his builds, like his +1 before academy 5 rax that raped zero in abc mart, his original anti carrier build focuses, raping stork on ground zero with that dropship thing, etc.
Bisu was supremely sound mechanically; I would put him above everyone, including Jaedong and Flash. Bisu's revolutionary PvZ occurred naturally because it just happened to be the style that suited his style perfectly.
A couple of key points: - Even after Bisu showcased his PvZ to the world, most Protoss players still struggled immensely against Zerg for a very long time; it wasn't because they didn't know Bisu's build, it was because they couldn't mimic Bisu's control. - Bisu continued to have amazing PvZ runs until the end of BW; he simply had better control than most of his Zerg opponents - Bisu had relatively weak PvT because harass and multitasking aren't as important/effective in PvT; he did have amazing engagements which was imo his only saving grace in his PvT
I never thought of Bisu as a strategic player like Flash and Stork, he was just someone who had a decent game sense and incredible multitasking
On November 30 2012 14:00 Cambium wrote: Bisu was supremely sound mechanically; I would put him above everyone, including Jaedong and Flash. Bisu's revolutionary PvZ occurred naturally because it just happened to be the style that suited his style perfectly.
A couple of key points: - Even after Bisu showcased his PvZ to the world, most Protoss players still struggled immensely against Zerg for a very long time; it wasn't because they didn't know Bisu's build, it was because they couldn't mimic Bisu's control. - Bisu continued to have amazing PvZ runs until the end of BW; he simply had better control than most of his Zerg opponents - Bisu had relatively weak PvT because harass and multitasking aren't as important/effective in PvT; he did have amazing engagements which was imo his only saving grace in his PvT
I never thought of Bisu as a strategic player like Flash and Stork, he was just someone who had a decent game sense and incredible multitasking
So why is it that when control actually matters AND is at its easiest (Carriers v. T) did Bisu fail so hard T_T
On November 30 2012 14:00 Cambium wrote: Bisu was supremely sound mechanically; I would put him above everyone, including Jaedong and Flash. Bisu's revolutionary PvZ occurred naturally because it just happened to be the style that suited his style perfectly.
A couple of key points: - Even after Bisu showcased his PvZ to the world, most Protoss players still struggled immensely against Zerg for a very long time; it wasn't because they didn't know Bisu's build, it was because they couldn't mimic Bisu's control. - Bisu continued to have amazing PvZ runs until the end of BW; he simply had better control than most of his Zerg opponents - Bisu had relatively weak PvT because harass and multitasking aren't as important/effective in PvT; he did have amazing engagements which was imo his only saving grace in his PvT
I never thought of Bisu as a strategic player like Flash and Stork, he was just someone who had a decent game sense and incredible multitasking
I agree here. Bisu's multitask and harassment ability were unparalleled in BW. Unfortunately, the fact remains that he was unable to translate that skill into results; nor was he able to successfully overcome his relative shortcomings.
On November 30 2012 14:00 Cambium wrote: Bisu was supremely sound mechanically; I would put him above everyone, including Jaedong and Flash. Bisu's revolutionary PvZ occurred naturally because it just happened to be the style that suited his style perfectly.
A couple of key points: - Even after Bisu showcased his PvZ to the world, most Protoss players still struggled immensely against Zerg for a very long time; it wasn't because they didn't know Bisu's build, it was because they couldn't mimic Bisu's control. - Bisu continued to have amazing PvZ runs until the end of BW; he simply had better control than most of his Zerg opponents - Bisu had relatively weak PvT because harass and multitasking aren't as important/effective in PvT; he did have amazing engagements which was imo his only saving grace in his PvT
I never thought of Bisu as a strategic player like Flash and Stork, he was just someone who had a decent game sense and incredible multitasking
I agree here. Bisu's multitask and harassment ability were unparalleled in BW. Unfortunately, the fact remains that he was unable to translate that skill into results; nor was he able to successfully overcome his relative shortcomings.
Let's be a little less biased or more explicit here, he had plenty of good results, I think his 63 wins in 2010-2011 PL included ^^; If Bisu didn't get results by your standards, then the only players who did (in the same time period): Jaedong, Flash, Fantasy, Jangbi. Although perhaps you are leaning more to just": Flash." ? xDD
On November 30 2012 14:00 Cambium wrote: Bisu was supremely sound mechanically; I would put him above everyone, including Jaedong and Flash. Bisu's revolutionary PvZ occurred naturally because it just happened to be the style that suited his style perfectly.
A couple of key points: - Even after Bisu showcased his PvZ to the world, most Protoss players still struggled immensely against Zerg for a very long time; it wasn't because they didn't know Bisu's build, it was because they couldn't mimic Bisu's control. - Bisu continued to have amazing PvZ runs until the end of BW; he simply had better control than most of his Zerg opponents - Bisu had relatively weak PvT because harass and multitasking aren't as important/effective in PvT; he did have amazing engagements which was imo his only saving grace in his PvT
I never thought of Bisu as a strategic player like Flash and Stork, he was just someone who had a decent game sense and incredible multitasking
So why is it that when control actually matters AND is at its easiest (Carriers v. T) did Bisu fail so hard T_T
Carriers aren't a control unit per se; they're more of a positional unit.
Protosses don't use carriers to specifically harass; rather, they use carriers to 1) force T to change to a less cost-efficient army composition and 2) force T to ball up and chase after the carriers with a significant mobility disadvantage. Carriers don't win in a straight fight vs goliaths, nor do they even with with good "micro" (esp after Flash introduced his anti-carrier build.) Rather, Carriers give P an easy (or even easier) way to force the T out of position again and again and again.
Stork was good with carriers because I think he was the single best positional player in the game. He knew what ground to take and when. Flash beat Stork when he could use Stork's nerves against him and lost when he couldn't... but given how much self-doubt Stork usually had vs Flash, it was typically a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Later on in Flash's career, he would learn the same tricks of positional warfare that Stork championed and use them against everyone else.
On November 30 2012 14:00 Cambium wrote: Bisu was supremely sound mechanically; I would put him above everyone, including Jaedong and Flash. Bisu's revolutionary PvZ occurred naturally because it just happened to be the style that suited his style perfectly.
A couple of key points: - Even after Bisu showcased his PvZ to the world, most Protoss players still struggled immensely against Zerg for a very long time; it wasn't because they didn't know Bisu's build, it was because they couldn't mimic Bisu's control. - Bisu continued to have amazing PvZ runs until the end of BW; he simply had better control than most of his Zerg opponents - Bisu had relatively weak PvT because harass and multitasking aren't as important/effective in PvT; he did have amazing engagements which was imo his only saving grace in his PvT
I never thought of Bisu as a strategic player like Flash and Stork, he was just someone who had a decent game sense and incredible multitasking
I agree here. Bisu's multitask and harassment ability were unparalleled in BW. Unfortunately, the fact remains that he was unable to translate that skill into results; nor was he able to successfully overcome his relative shortcomings.
Let's be a little less biased or more explicit here, he had plenty of good results, I think his 63 wins in 2010-2011 PL included ^^; If Bisu didn't get results by your standards, then the only players who did (in the same time period): Jaedong, Flash, Fantasy, Jangbi. Although perhaps you are leaning more to just": Flash." ? xDD
I mean players who got to the Ro16 in individual leagues, so include Kal, Calm, Go.Go, Hwasin, Action, Stats, Violet, Sea, etc.
EDIT: And Shine. And Hyvaa.
There were times when Bisu would just make inexcusable game sense errors, like double expanding vs. Hyvaa while seeing Hyvaa mass up tons of defilers for a pre-Ultra timing. It's like he believed his harass and control and battle skills would let him prevail against suicidal odds, and then he would lose, painfully.
On November 30 2012 14:00 Cambium wrote: Bisu was supremely sound mechanically; I would put him above everyone, including Jaedong and Flash. Bisu's revolutionary PvZ occurred naturally because it just happened to be the style that suited his style perfectly.
A couple of key points: - Even after Bisu showcased his PvZ to the world, most Protoss players still struggled immensely against Zerg for a very long time; it wasn't because they didn't know Bisu's build, it was because they couldn't mimic Bisu's control. - Bisu continued to have amazing PvZ runs until the end of BW; he simply had better control than most of his Zerg opponents - Bisu had relatively weak PvT because harass and multitasking aren't as important/effective in PvT; he did have amazing engagements which was imo his only saving grace in his PvT
I never thought of Bisu as a strategic player like Flash and Stork, he was just someone who had a decent game sense and incredible multitasking
I agree here. Bisu's multitask and harassment ability were unparalleled in BW. Unfortunately, the fact remains that he was unable to translate that skill into results; nor was he able to successfully overcome his relative shortcomings.
Let's be a little less biased or more explicit here, he had plenty of good results, I think his 63 wins in 2010-2011 PL included ^^; If Bisu didn't get results by your standards, then the only players who did (in the same time period): Jaedong, Flash, Fantasy, Jangbi. Although perhaps you are leaning more to just": Flash." ? xDD
I mean players who got to the Ro16 in individual leagues, so include Kal, Calm, Go.Go, Hwasin, Action, Stats, Violet, Sea, etc.
EDIT: And Shine. And Hyvaa.
There were times when Bisu would just make inexcusable game sense errors, like double expanding vs. Hyvaa while seeing Hyvaa mass up tons of defilers for a pre-Ultra timing. It's like he believed his harass and control and battle skills would let him prevail against suicidal odds, and then he would lose, painfully.
Lol...
Go.Go, Action, Shine, Hyvaa, Violet = good results gg wp Bisu = bad results sry
Still trolling even on a new account, nothing to see here, move along.
On November 30 2012 14:00 Cambium wrote: Bisu was supremely sound mechanically; I would put him above everyone, including Jaedong and Flash. Bisu's revolutionary PvZ occurred naturally because it just happened to be the style that suited his style perfectly.
A couple of key points: - Even after Bisu showcased his PvZ to the world, most Protoss players still struggled immensely against Zerg for a very long time; it wasn't because they didn't know Bisu's build, it was because they couldn't mimic Bisu's control. - Bisu continued to have amazing PvZ runs until the end of BW; he simply had better control than most of his Zerg opponents - Bisu had relatively weak PvT because harass and multitasking aren't as important/effective in PvT; he did have amazing engagements which was imo his only saving grace in his PvT
I never thought of Bisu as a strategic player like Flash and Stork, he was just someone who had a decent game sense and incredible multitasking
So why is it that when control actually matters AND is at its easiest (Carriers v. T) did Bisu fail so hard T_T
Carriers aren't a control unit per se; they're more of a positional unit.
Protosses don't use carriers to specifically harass; rather, they use carriers to 1) force T to change to a less cost-efficient army composition and 2) force T to ball up and chase after the carriers with a significant mobility disadvantage. Carriers don't win in a straight fight vs goliaths, nor do they even with with good "micro" (esp after Flash introduced his anti-carrier build.) Rather, Carriers give P an easy (or even easier) way to force the T out of position again and again and again.
Stork was good with carriers because I think he was the single best positional player in the game. He knew what ground to take and when. Flash beat Stork when he could use Stork's nerves against him and lost when he couldn't... but given how much self-doubt Stork usually had vs Flash, it was typically a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Later on in Flash's career, he would learn the same tricks of positional warfare that Stork championed and use them against everyone else.
Well-said. "Commander of chief of no weak points", or whatever his nickname, refers to the kind of airtight positional play Stork exhibited. He never had the best mechanics or game sense, but when it got time for strategic maneuvering and angles of confrontation, he was downright amazing.
With regard to Flash being a bonjwa...I'll admit upfront that I never particularly liked Flash while he was playing bw; whether it was during time of his simple one-two punch timings or during the height of his dominance, I never really was a fan of him. Nothing against him at all, just wasn't a fan or anything.
But is he a bonjwa? Personally, that's not even a question worth considering. His kind of dominance was off the charts. Every single time he lost a game, people would wonder in the LRs or wherever else whether Flash's dominance was over, that so-and-so was AMAZING OMG (remember Snow?). I think that kind of rapid, reactionary kind of hope was in itself extremely indicative of his dominance. Kind of a false hope that Flash wouldn't stop dominating their favorite players (in some cases), latching onto whatever could be found; the odd loss was made that much more significant by his stretch of consistent ownage.
And about Bisu, yeah...he had heavenly multitask and mechanics. But I really don't think he was spearheading a change in the protoss approach to the game or innovating. More like he found the perfect playstyle for himself and showed that through the Savior game. Otherwise yes, he was pretty consistent, but I the lack of consistent individual league results (infamously in OSL) kind of demonstrates his shortcomings in planning and executing strategies tailored to the metagame and to his opponents. One of my friends was a huge Bisu fan (has since moved to LoL since sc2 came out ._.), and I always thought he was pretty dead-on with his description of Bisu. Dumb as rocks, but a mechanically ridiculous player, just monstrous in that department
I don't think either of you guys are too far off (besides your differing "biases"). It's more that you're compelling each other to take potshots because of your inflammatory language and whatnot lol.
On November 30 2012 13:23 Salazarz wrote: Why are you saying Bisu's PvP opponents weren't all that good, then bring in Fantasy as an example of a 'strong' TvT opponent Flash had to play against, lol. Up until the last PL season, Fantasy was pretty much the definition of inconsistent in TvT, and his TvT style was always the scissors to Flash's rock.
Let's look at Bisu's "strong" PvP opponents from 2008-2012 (about the time when both Bisu and Flash were very good; yes, Bisu was the best player in the world, mostly riding on his famous PvZ, for much of 2007, but we'd like to compare them over a similar timeframe). Keep in mind that Bisu's peak PvP ELO was on 10/28/2009.
First, we note that Bisu's PvP record over this time period was a very scary 102-53 (65.81%).
Now, I'll list his records vs. top PvPers (by peak ELO). I'm leaving out Reach, Pusan, Anytime, Nal_rA, Kingdom, fOru here because they're too old and all (except Anytime/Pusan) had their peaks far before the time period we're looking at; in the case of Anytime and Pusan, they stopped being serious threats sometime in early 2008.
I cut this off at 12 players, which is much more favorable-looking than cutting off at say, the top 5 (against whom Bisu has a 20-18 (52.63%) record.)
Not bad. However, observe that most of these wins occured in single-game matches (which are mostly in Proleague), with the exception of [single] WCG Bo3 wins over Stork and free and OSL/MSL series wins over free, BeSt, Jangbi (multiple times in late 2008-early 2009) and Much (a lot).
His only Bo5 wins over Protoss in this time period are over free in ClubDay and Jangbi in consecutive finals (ClubDay MSL, GOM Classic 2).
(Before 2008, he 3-1'd Nal_rA, 3-2'd Stork in the famous no-goon-range finals, and was 3-0'd by Stork five months later.)
Outside of his 2007-invincibility and late 2008-early 2009's consecutive wins over Jangbi, Bisu's PvP can't really be called "dominant." Of course, he did display dominance for short stretches of time, but didn't really get much chance to show off how good his series PvP is.
Now let's take into account that maybe, because he could never make it far into individual leagues, Bisu showed his PvP skill primarily in Proleague. We'll look at his famous 63-win campaign in the 2010-2011 Proleague/Winner's League. He posted a 16-7 PvP record here. But against the strong opponents listed above?
vs. Stork: 0-2 vs. Horang2: 1-1 vs. Kal: 2-2 vs. Jangbi: 1-0 vs. Stats: 0-1 vs. Pure (who honestly sucked at this point): 1-0 vs. free: 1-1
Total: 6-7 (46.15%).
Interesting, hmm?
I won't deny that Bisu is possibly the best PvP player of all time, overall, but he was--for lack of a better "word"--rather "vincible."
Now let's look at Flash's TvT. His TvT record from 2008-2012 was 155 - 56 (73.46%); this is a bit (a lot?) better than Bisu's PvP record. Now zoom in to Flash's performance against top TvTers. I'll leave out NaDa, XellOs, Goodfriend, Iris, iloveoov, BoxeR, Midas, and Casy; of these, Iris, Midas, and Casy had TvT peaks in 2007 (though Iris arguably remained a top TvT player into early 2009 and Flash is 6-1 vs. Iris, we'll leave him out anyway.) Observe that Flash has a 38-20 (65.52%) record against the top 5 here. Flash is also 10-3 vs. Really, the 13th highest TvT ELO peak and breaker of Flash's record 17-game TvT win streak; by comparison, Bisu is 0-1 vs. the 13th highest PvP ELO peak, Tempest.
vs. sKyHigh: 3-3 vs. Fantasy: 13-10 (I counted his Proleague Rivals Battle loss.) vs. Sea: 8-0 (I didn't count Ultimate PL) vs. Leta: 13-6 (I counted his STX Masters loss.) vs. Canata: 1-1 (lol Canata) vs. Light: 6-2 vs. Hwasin: 5-1 (discounting the 2-0 in Hana Daetoo which might've been match-fixed) vs. HiyA: 10-2 vs. firebathero: 6-2 vs. Mind: 9-0 (excluding the GOM Preseason Invitational, which was Flash 3-1 Mind) vs. BaBy: 4-2 vs. ForGG: 5-4
Total: 83-33 (71.55%)
Now let's look at series play. Flash lost a total of 3 TvT series in this timeframe: 1-3 to ForGG in Arena MSL, 1-2 to Leta in Lost Saga MSL, and most recently 0-3 to Fantasy in tving OSL. On the flip side, he's won 10 mirror-matchup Bo3s (including, from the above list, series over Mind, HiyA, Fantasy, BaBy, Leta, ForGG, and Leta again), and has gone 3-2 over Lomo, 3-1 over Iris, 3-1 over Mvp, 3-2 over Fantasy, and 3-1 over Leta for a 5-2 record in Bo5s.
Complementing his 70.29% winrate in individual leagues is Flash's obscene 75.2% (ignoring his two PvTs against Bisu and BeSt in All-Stars, but including his 0-3 mirror record in other non-standard leagues) TvT winrate in team leagues.
I don't think you can say that Bisu comes terribly close to Flash in pure dominance of the mirror matchup. Heck, JvZ looked significantly stronger than BvP for a long time, and even in PvP, BeSt's 16-win streak was more impressive than most of Bisu's vP play (again, outside Bisu vs Stork 2007 and Bisu vs Jangbi 2008-09.)
Finally, let's talk about Fantasy's "erratic" play prior to his last-season-of-PL dominance. From 2008 to the end of July 2011, Fantasy's TvT was 76-45 (62.81%) (sans his ZvT against Jaedong and his win over Sea in the PL Map Test). Removing his 6-13 record against Flash in this period, his record against other Terrans was 68.63% during this time period; that's better than Bisu's 89-44 (66.92%) vP win percentage (removing All-Stars [0-1], Map Test [1-0], and MBC Skins League [3-4]), by the way!
So I don't know what was so inconsistent about Fantasy's vT during the time he went 6-13 vs. Flash. He was certainly a top 5 TvT player from mid-2008 onwards, and at the time he lost 2-3 to Flash in the Bigfile MSL finals, only Skyhigh and Flash could even claim to have a better TvT than Fantasy did.
In conclusion: stop making excuses for why Bisu's PvP seemed weaker than Flash's TvT.
On November 30 2012 13:23 Salazarz wrote: Why are you saying Bisu's PvP opponents weren't all that good, then bring in Fantasy as an example of a 'strong' TvT opponent Flash had to play against, lol. Up until the last PL season, Fantasy was pretty much the definition of inconsistent in TvT, and his TvT style was always the scissors to Flash's rock.
Let's look at Bisu's "strong" PvP opponents from 2008-2012 (about the time when both Bisu and Flash were very good; yes, Bisu was the best player in the world, mostly riding on his famous PvZ, for much of 2007, but we'd like to compare them over a similar timeframe). Keep in mind that Bisu's peak PvP ELO was on 10/28/2009.
First, we note that Bisu's PvP record over this time period was a very scary 102-53 (65.81%).
Now, I'll list his records vs. top PvPers (by peak ELO). I'm leaving out Reach, Pusan, Anytime, Nal_rA, Kingdom, fOru here because they're too old and all (except Anytime/Pusan) had their peaks far before the time period we're looking at; in the case of Anytime and Pusan, they stopped being serious threats sometime in early 2008.
I cut this off at 12 players, which is much more favorable-looking than cutting off at say, the top 5 (against whom Bisu has a 20-18 (52.63%) record.)
Not bad. However, observe that most of these wins occured in single-game matches (which are mostly in Proleague), with the exception of [single] WCG Bo3 wins over Stork and free and OSL/MSL series wins over free, BeSt, Jangbi (multiple times in late 2008-early 2009) and Much (a lot).
His only Bo5 wins over Protoss in this time period are over free in ClubDay and Jangbi in consecutive finals (ClubDay MSL, GOM Classic 2).
(Before 2008, he 3-1'd Nal_rA, 3-2'd Stork in the famous no-goon-range finals, and was 3-0'd by Stork five months later.)
Outside of his 2007-invincibility and late 2008-early 2009's consecutive wins over Jangbi, Bisu's PvP can't really be called "dominant." Of course, he did display dominance for short stretches of time, but didn't really get much chance to show off how good his series PvP is.
Now let's take into account that maybe, because he could never make it far into individual leagues, Bisu showed his PvP skill primarily in Proleague. We'll look at his famous 63-win campaign in the 2010-2011 Proleague/Winner's League. He posted a 16-7 PvP record here. But against the strong opponents listed above?
vs. Stork: 0-2 vs. Horang2: 1-1 vs. Kal: 2-2 vs. Jangbi: 1-0 vs. Stats: 0-1 vs. Pure (who honestly sucked at this point): 1-0 vs. free: 1-1
Total: 6-7 (46.15%).
Interesting, hmm?
I won't deny that Bisu is possibly the best PvP player of all time, overall, but he was--for lack of a better "word"--rather "vincible."
Now let's look at Flash's TvT. His TvT record from 2008-2012 was 155 - 56 (73.46%); this is a bit (a lot?) better than Bisu's PvP record. Now zoom in to Flash's performance against top TvTers. I'll leave out NaDa, XellOs, Goodfriend, Iris, iloveoov, BoxeR, Midas, and Casy; of these, Iris, Midas, and Casy had TvT peaks in 2007 (though Iris arguably remained a top TvT player into early 2009 and Flash is 6-1 vs. Iris, we'll leave him out anyway.) Observe that Flash has a 38-20 (65.52%) record against the top 5 here. Flash is also 10-3 vs. Really, the 13th highest TvT ELO peak and breaker of Flash's record 17-game TvT win streak; by comparison, Bisu is 0-1 vs. the 13th highest PvP ELO peak, Tempest.
vs. sKyHigh: 3-3 vs. Fantasy: 13-10 (I counted his Proleague Rivals Battle loss.) vs. Sea: 8-0 (I didn't count Ultimate PL) vs. Leta: 13-6 (I counted his STX Masters loss.) vs. Canata: 1-1 (lol Canata) vs. Light: 6-2 vs. Hwasin: 5-1 (discounting the 2-0 in Hana Daetoo which might've been match-fixed) vs. HiyA: 10-2 vs. firebathero: 6-2 vs. Mind: 9-0 (excluding the GOM Preseason Invitational, which was Flash 3-1 Mind) vs. BaBy: 4-2 vs. ForGG: 5-4
Total: 83-33 (71.55%)
Now let's look at series play. Flash lost a total of 3 TvT series in this timeframe: 1-3 to ForGG in Arena MSL, 1-2 to Leta in Lost Saga MSL, and most recently 0-3 to Fantasy in tving OSL. On the flip side, he's won 10 mirror-matchup Bo3s (including, from the above list, series over Mind, HiyA, Fantasy, BaBy, Leta, ForGG, and Leta again), and has gone 3-2 over Lomo, 3-1 over Iris, 3-1 over Mvp, 3-2 over Fantasy, and 3-1 over Leta for a 5-2 record in Bo5s.
Complementing his 70.29% winrate in individual leagues is Flash's obscene 75.2% (ignoring his two PvTs against Bisu and BeSt in All-Stars, but including his 0-3 mirror record in other non-standard leagues) TvT winrate in team leagues.
I don't think you can say that Bisu comes terribly close to Flash in pure dominance of the mirror matchup. Heck, JvZ looked significantly stronger than BvP for a long time, and even in PvP, BeSt's 16-win streak was more impressive than most of Bisu's vP play (again, outside Bisu vs Stork 2007 and Bisu vs Jangbi 2008-09.)
Finally, let's talk about Fantasy's "erratic" play prior to his last-season-of-PL dominance. From 2008 to the end of July 2011, Fantasy's TvT was 76-45 (62.81%) (sans his ZvT against Jaedong and his win over Sea in the PL Map Test). Removing his 6-13 record against Flash in this period, his record against other Terrans was 68.63% during this time period; that's better than Bisu's 89-44 (66.92%) vP win percentage (removing All-Stars [0-1], Map Test [1-0], and MBC Skins League [3-4]), by the way!
So I don't know what was so inconsistent about Fantasy's vT during the time he went 6-13 vs. Flash. He was certainly a top 5 TvT player from mid-2008 onwards, and at the time he lost 2-3 to Flash in the Bigfile MSL finals, only Skyhigh and Flash could even claim to have a better TvT than Fantasy did.
In conclusion: stop making excuses for why Bisu's PvP seemed weaker than Flash's TvT.
EPT
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