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On November 29 2012 23:52 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 23:43 Sentenal wrote:FYI, that is the single reason why I disliked Bisu so much--the guy never pushed the metagame of Protoss forward Are you kidding me? Bisu didn't push the Protoss "metagame" forward? Bisu completely redefined how Protoss play PvZ, an entire matchup. Bisu did that in 2007, but Show nested quote +after Savior Bisu got lazy in assuming full responsibility as his race's torchbearer. Bisu pushed the metagame forward for one matchup for one year. Flash continually innovated TvZ, TvT, and TvP builds (1-rax expo TvP; mech transitions TvZ) to their full potential over three years. This isn't to say that Bisu wasn't a good player--Bisu was just less innovative than he should have been. After all, he was the best Protoss in Brood War--had he been as creative and deep as Flash, I seriously doubt that Protoss would have spent the final 4 years of BW in the shitty predicament that it did.
He also popularized the speed zeal/sair opening that he used in 2011 and his arbiter-centric plays on otherwise Carrier-frielndly maps like Katrina in response to the goliath/upgrade-heavy Flash build...
On top of that, did you REALLY have to call this blog "The Last Bonjwa" ??? Completely incorrect -_-;
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On November 30 2012 00:56 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 23:52 Shady Sands wrote:On November 29 2012 23:43 Sentenal wrote:FYI, that is the single reason why I disliked Bisu so much--the guy never pushed the metagame of Protoss forward Are you kidding me? Bisu didn't push the Protoss "metagame" forward? Bisu completely redefined how Protoss play PvZ, an entire matchup. Bisu did that in 2007, but after Savior Bisu got lazy in assuming full responsibility as his race's torchbearer. Bisu pushed the metagame forward for one matchup for one year. Flash continually innovated TvZ, TvT, and TvP builds (1-rax expo TvP; mech transitions TvZ) to their full potential over three years. This isn't to say that Bisu wasn't a good player--Bisu was just less innovative than he should have been. After all, he was the best Protoss in Brood War--had he been as creative and deep as Flash, I seriously doubt that Protoss would have spent the final 4 years of BW in the shitty predicament that it did. He also popularized the speed zeal/sair opening that he used in 2011 and his arbiter-centric plays on otherwise Carrier-frielndly maps like Katrina in response to the goliath/upgrade-heavy Flash build... On top of that, did you REALLY have to call this blog "The Last Bonjwa" ??? Completely incorrect -_-;
Yeah didn't really understand that part.
Bisu was also the biggest and most consistent winner in Team-leagues in the last few years (3 All-kills in a row) and SKTs most valuable asset, he even beat Flash when it mattered most in Winners and Proleague finals.. He didn't qualify for individual leagues because of his poor defense against cheese, not because he couldn't innovate. He didn't even need to innovate when he could crush Jaedong with standard play, unlike Flash who's only possible way of beating Jaedong in a BoX was to do some crazy wtf builds, which is what he did.
Jaedong, Stork, Jangbi were also quite the innovators. Jaedongs ability to creatively counter builds on the fly was amazing, and Stork has a winning record against top-tier pros with his insane ability to always create new builds.
The difference was that Flash perfected the least developed aspect of BW, metagame (as in not strategy, but poker-esque mind gaming). This was what gave him the biggest edge over top-tier opponents. His macro had nothing to do with how many scvs he made, and how fast he clicked on buildings, it was his deductive reasoning on determining how many shortcuts he could take so he would always have biggest army possible deduced from metagame, there were a few games where this style of play cost him games.
^ Although I think the OP covered this quite well.
He really was the last bonjwa in BW though IMO.
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On November 30 2012 01:49 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 00:56 Jealous wrote:On November 29 2012 23:52 Shady Sands wrote:On November 29 2012 23:43 Sentenal wrote:FYI, that is the single reason why I disliked Bisu so much--the guy never pushed the metagame of Protoss forward Are you kidding me? Bisu didn't push the Protoss "metagame" forward? Bisu completely redefined how Protoss play PvZ, an entire matchup. Bisu did that in 2007, but after Savior Bisu got lazy in assuming full responsibility as his race's torchbearer. Bisu pushed the metagame forward for one matchup for one year. Flash continually innovated TvZ, TvT, and TvP builds (1-rax expo TvP; mech transitions TvZ) to their full potential over three years. This isn't to say that Bisu wasn't a good player--Bisu was just less innovative than he should have been. After all, he was the best Protoss in Brood War--had he been as creative and deep as Flash, I seriously doubt that Protoss would have spent the final 4 years of BW in the shitty predicament that it did. He also popularized the speed zeal/sair opening that he used in 2011 and his arbiter-centric plays on otherwise Carrier-frielndly maps like Katrina in response to the goliath/upgrade-heavy Flash build... On top of that, did you REALLY have to call this blog "The Last Bonjwa" ??? Completely incorrect -_-; Yeah didn't really understand that part. Bisu was also the biggest winner in Proleague in the last couple years. He didn't qualify for individual leagues because of his poor defense against cheese, not because he couldn't innovate. He didn't even need to innovate when he could crush Jaedong with standard play. Jaedong, Stork, Jangbi were also quite the innovators. Jaedongs ability to creatively counter builds on the fly was amazing, and Stork has a winning record against top-tier pros with his insane ability to always create new builds. The difference was that Flash perfected the least developed aspect of BW, metagame (as in not strategy, but poker-esque mind gaming). This was what gave him the biggest edge over top-tier opponents. His macro had nothing to do with how many scvs he made, and how fast he clicked on buildings, it was his deductive reasoning on determining how many shortcuts he could take so he would always have biggest army possible deduced from metagame, there were a few games where this style of play cost him games. ^ Although I think the OP covered this quite well. He really was the last bonjwa in BW though IMO.
I didn't argue with the initial statement, I argued with the latter:
"After all, he was the best Protoss in Brood War--had he been as creative and deep as Flash..."
He left his 'metagame' platform behind.
But that is still secondary to his misuse of Bonjwa =_=
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I agree with this post. I've never thought that Flash played boring. The only thing that could be considered boring is perhaps if you're a fan of his opponents and don't like them to lose. 
Although that last series vs Fantasy was a bit sad to watch.
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I am a bitter Jaedong fan, still I like this article!
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Your use of the word rapist is offensive.
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On November 30 2012 02:03 ComaDose wrote:
Your use of the word rapist is offensive.
And you are funny.
Edit:
Really like this, can't wait for part 3! :D
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On November 30 2012 02:03 ComaDose wrote:
Your use of the word rapist is offensive.
Your use of the word coma is offensive.
Dose too. I want to dose LSD all the time and you've just reminded me of my LSD-lessness.
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On November 30 2012 01:56 neptunusfisk wrote:I agree with this post. I've never thought that Flash played boring. The only thing that could be considered boring is perhaps if you're a fan of his opponents and don't like them to lose. Although that last series vs Fantasy was a bit sad to watch.
I actually do think Flash played boring. He just had a boring playstyle, in the same way that watching brilliant moves in chess can still be boring. He was a brilliant mastermind, but his brilliance could never really be showcased on TV, it was always outside of the game.
There are a couple games like his game against Soulkeys 2 hatch lurker which was amazing and basically showed he could play like Boxer if he wanted, but 99% of his games were simply about winning in the most efficient way possible. So all his games seemed like turtle into a-move stomp when there was really a lot more going on behind the scenes.
He would always draw out unimportant or unprepared games as long as he possibly could to maximise his chances of winning, and then in prepared games he would use unstoppable timing attacks that his opponent simply had no hope of defending and made the grand finals always completely underwhelming. Which is the opposite of what you want, you want short bracket games, and long finals games.
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On November 30 2012 03:30 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 01:56 neptunusfisk wrote:I agree with this post. I've never thought that Flash played boring. The only thing that could be considered boring is perhaps if you're a fan of his opponents and don't like them to lose. Although that last series vs Fantasy was a bit sad to watch. I actually do think Flash played boring. He just had a boring playstyle, in the same way that watching brilliant moves in chess can still be boring. He was a brilliant mastermind, but his brilliance could never really be showcased on TV, it was always outside of the game. There are a couple games like his game against Soulkeys 2 hatch lurker which was amazing and basically showed he could play like Boxer if he wanted, but 99% of his games were simply about winning in the most efficient way possible. So all his games seemed like turtle into a-move stomp when there was really a lot more going on behind the scenes. He would always draw out unimportant or unprepared games as long as he possibly could to maximise his chances of winning, and then in prepared games he would use unstoppable timing attacks that his opponent simply had no hope of defending and made the grand finals always completely underwhelming. Which is the opposite of what you want, you want short bracket games, and long finals games.
I guess this is where I differ--I found Flash's hyper-efficient playstyle vastly more entertaining than players who played to be "interesting"... in the same way that I enjoy watching Tim Duncan or Kobe Bryant play more than the Harlem Globetrotters.
EDIT: Also Flash didn't draw out unimportant or unprepared games as long as possible. He drew out games where he was losing as long as possible (see his TvTs vs FBH, for example.) Those two are different. In "random" matches where he got a sollid early advantage, he was just as much a fan of ending things quickly as the next player; perhaps even more so, given that his wrists were in constant pain up until late in his BW career.
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Awesome! very well written, but i disagree with the bisu hate of course, but other wise its freaking amazing.
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There's no doubt that Flash was the best BW player of all time. But I still think the finals between him and JD that year would have been a lot closer if the maps didn't suck so much for ZvT. Polaris Rhapsody, Eye of the Storm, and Odd-Eye SUCK.
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Excellent blog. I wish we had these kind of analysis when the actual games are played.
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On November 30 2012 03:52 Ideas wrote:
There's no doubt that Flash was the best BW player of all time. But I still think the finals between him and JD that year would have been a lot closer if the maps didn't suck so much for ZvT. Polaris Rhapsody, Eye of the Storm, and Odd-Eye SUCK.
Odd-eye is a great map for Z (securing double gas 3rd = autowin for zerg) and Eots is not that bad for Z, Jaedong simply got outplayed on both maps. Jaedong dominated Flash on that map the previous time, it looked close, but it really wasn't. In the other series, the map pool was heavily in zergs favor, flight zergliner, Jaedong won on polaris, still suffered the same fate.
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On November 30 2012 03:44 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 03:30 sluggaslamoo wrote:On November 30 2012 01:56 neptunusfisk wrote:I agree with this post. I've never thought that Flash played boring. The only thing that could be considered boring is perhaps if you're a fan of his opponents and don't like them to lose. Although that last series vs Fantasy was a bit sad to watch. I actually do think Flash played boring. He just had a boring playstyle, in the same way that watching brilliant moves in chess can still be boring. He was a brilliant mastermind, but his brilliance could never really be showcased on TV, it was always outside of the game. There are a couple games like his game against Soulkeys 2 hatch lurker which was amazing and basically showed he could play like Boxer if he wanted, but 99% of his games were simply about winning in the most efficient way possible. So all his games seemed like turtle into a-move stomp when there was really a lot more going on behind the scenes. He would always draw out unimportant or unprepared games as long as he possibly could to maximise his chances of winning, and then in prepared games he would use unstoppable timing attacks that his opponent simply had no hope of defending and made the grand finals always completely underwhelming. Which is the opposite of what you want, you want short bracket games, and long finals games. I guess this is where I differ--I found Flash's hyper-efficient playstyle vastly more entertaining than players who played to be "interesting"... in the same way that I enjoy watching Tim Duncan or Kobe Bryant play more than the Harlem Globetrotters. EDIT: Also Flash didn't draw out unimportant or unprepared games as long as possible. He drew out games where he was losing as long as possible (see his TvTs vs FBH, for example.) Those two are different. In "random" matches where he got a sollid early advantage, he was just as much a fan of ending things quickly as the next player; perhaps even more so, given that his wrists were in constant pain up until late in his BW career.
See any of Flash's split map games vs Protoss or against Zero on Polaris where he literally turtles with turrets/mines and tanks all the way to the Zergs main. He is the most patient player of all time although that is part of why he is so great.
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Flash has a great BW sense, he can feel when something is off.
But truth be told, whenever Flash was sent in, the most entertaining thing was to root against him
Unlike Bisu and Jaedong, you cannot root against them :D
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Flash's a bit like Darth Vader; you don't like him because he does great stuff, it's more because he's totally cool and unbeatable. To go up against him is heroic, and in the end, you're greatful that he was in the movie because it made great action.
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Man, amazing write-up. I miss BW, been playing it again at school and having tons of fun with it. But idk I don't think there's enough of a community to warrant me picking it up again 
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Flash was better than Bisu at playing against specific opponents, and his varied strategies were exactly that - builds tailored not for matchups and maps, but very specific players doing specific things in very specific situations. There is no way you can compare the creativity of those two side to side - they were both a genius in their own right.
Also, Fantasy is the last bonjwa.
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EPT
