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On September 19 2012 09:49 EnderSword wrote:
There's quite definitely no lack in amateur play.
From Daily Playhem, Z33k, Beyond Gaming, Sticky Flames etc... tournaments, we've also got high amatuer CSL, After Hours Gaming League, Female only tournaments, constant qualifiers for training team spots or invites to things, we've got the ladder itself as a main competitive outlet, 2v2 tournaments, local LANs, Clans that run events...
This moment I could turn on dozens of streams running smaller tournaments and competitions.
What exactly is it we're missing?
Amateur play yes, but community no. I think what he's saying is even if you win every under masters cup, nobody will know who you are and you'll likely make no more friends.
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I agree with this 100%. Another thing I find, with the massive playerbase, is that there are no LAN tournaments that anyone midmasters or below can have a hope in hell of winning, because there's always a pro there to sweep up.
I'd also say that we need stable team leagues for teams in the low masters to gold range, because at the moment there aren't really any, and teamleagues are much more exciting that solo tournaments.
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On September 19 2012 17:33 Lallis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 17:10 Tingles wrote:On September 19 2012 16:08 etofok wrote:On September 19 2012 13:42 Tingles wrote:
That shit made CS so much fun. Fucking Clan wars. The sense that i had something to work for, teammates to not let down, rival teams to compete against. Jumping onto a server with it full of a rival clan, and then you raping all of them, was one of the best feelings in CS.
I would love for this to be a reality in SC2. EGMC style clan wars where you send out your 3 best players in 3 best of 3's.
Then one off PIL Fight Club style where just 1 of each team just has a showmatch for clan prestiege or whatever.
Imagine being picked as an ace and winning clan war for your team ?
Hook that shit to my veins.
But Starcraft is a 1v1 game, now 5v5 Yeah, you have 4 1v1's in a clan war, with BO3's for each game? Look at EG Masters Cup. Perfect example of a team competition. Or even GSTL for that matter. Pick from a pool of players in a BO 7/ 9, with potential for All Kill. What do you mean "1v1 game, now 5v5" ? I don't understand what you are trying to say =/ I think there should be team ladders for teams of 3 or 5 with an all kill format. Would be so much more interesting to play with teams with that format because playing the team ladders now is like playing a whole another game and I don't think it's fun. 
Not a bad idea actually!
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Yea, i agree with you. I had so much fun playing clanwars in CS and Tactical Ops, i would play Sc2 again if there would be any good clan league or even a decent 1v1 ladder, where after few months you keep playing against the same player pool, thus knowing them more and more
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Unfortunately I just don't have the ability to play in these kinds of things anyway, I don't have time anymore to wait for people to show for matches, or if I advance staying up until after midnight to play. So, in the end the ladder is the only "real" competition I can realistically participate in. Which is why I am so happy about the unranked ladder in HotS. My biggest gripe with WoL is that my "practice" and my "competition" are effectively the same thing (ladder), so it leads to a lot of awkward situations where I want to be practicing, but also feel some pressure to try hard to win even if it is counter productive to my practice.
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1) Ladder matchmaking is very good. If you ignore all the pretty icons, fluff and leagues, which get criticized often, matchmaking is actually pretty good at giving you an even opponent, if you are not in the very top or very bottom.
2) Organizations have no interests doing something like this. ESL etc. could make money off it because by selling Premium accounts, but now that games have reasonable anti-cheat and proper matchmaking and free alternatives, nobody would pay for that and thus running such services is unattractive
3) In SC2, even a medium gap of skill lead to totally one-sided games which is frustrating for one side and boring for the other. In amateur leagues, the gaps of skill can be very big.
The only amateur thing I could see bringing novelty and something exciting are clan leagues, as the team experience is something different to the anonymous ladder. The 1v1 segment is far too crowded with pros, unknown pros and semi-pros for having something even related to a prestigious tournament/ladder for amateurs. And other than prestige, these things don't have much to offer.
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I stopped playing SC2 because I just had no-one to play with but myself. All my gamer friends are US and I've got an EU account. Hopefully HOTS will fix this.
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The core problem with this is that the clan situation in this community is pretty much dead.
If there would be alot of amateur clans you would see that at least one team league pop up that would be "the shit" to play and win for the "amateur scene".
It's sad, because in BW and CS it was the shit to be accepted into a clan to practice and compete together and get your name out there and have a shot to play some bigger names.
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As a former cs 1.6 competitive player of many years through cal, cevo, esea, etc etc I completely agree.
If you think about it, the biggest problem you're identifying is not the pure sense of community, but more specifically the lack of realized upward mobility.
Put simply, if you're a low-level clan (Diamond/Masters) you will never view yourself as in the same competitive realm as the "pro" teams.
Whereas with 1.6, if you were a shit team, you were still in the same league as the pros. There were divisions, but you competed in the same arena. If you were up late at night and there was no one else scrimming you might even get a team 2 divisions above you to take a chance and scrimmage you.
I've scrimmed against EG, members of then 3D, zEx, and many other iconic pro cs 1.x-1.6 teams in my time playing CS, and it's what really made me love the game.
In SC2 you're never going to get that chance. It's a celebrity-status game, brought on by the matchmaking system and the push towards marketing the pros as on keyboard warrior pedestals (good phrasing there btw).
If nothing else, there needs to be some kind of organized lower-level competitive league where you can make tangible progress and really compete. Grinding ladder and getting to masters doesn't really give you any sense of true competition. It's a sea of faceless people you compete against who are in the same position as any player under them.
I think TL could do a huge service to the community by creating some kind of team league that inspires people to form clans and practice together for lower level players.
If all you see every day is a sea of endless faces and then 100 or so pros on the ladder, then why would you find some great joy in reaching masters? It's not like you can go on the forums and brag and shit-talk and feel some kind of accomplishment.
Manner is all well and good, but competitive games are just that, competitive. Not everyone is some introverted freshman in college who sits in their dorm room grinding games until they reach top masters and start getting noticed. There needs to be something to win at lower levels.
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PS I completely stopped playing SC2 because I saw no spark in it. I played it in beta, and through the first year or so, then trickled on and off, but I just felt no gain in winning games and grinding ladder.
It meant nothing to me. If I know I don't have the time to play 12 hours/day and go pro, and there is no amateur divisions for me to win that might require less time, then why would I grind at all?
You should be able to compete in a game even if you only have 2 hours/day or 4 hours/week to play.
You don't need to be top masters to be able to compete in a game.
People shit on league of legends, but their 5v5 ranked system is pretty on-point in terms of how it relates to cs 1.6
It inspires people to form teams, hold tryouts, make friends, etc.
Imagine if you had a matchmaking queue in SC2 where you could "queue" with 4 other players and it would automate a Bo5 Pro League-style match with another group of 5?
Imagine if your "team" could then have a record, and compete against others, and there were divisions.
This would be a step in the right direction.
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Canada13402 Posts
On September 19 2012 18:29 EnE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 09:49 EnderSword wrote:
There's quite definitely no lack in amateur play.
From Daily Playhem, Z33k, Beyond Gaming, Sticky Flames etc... tournaments, we've also got high amatuer CSL, After Hours Gaming League, Female only tournaments, constant qualifiers for training team spots or invites to things, we've got the ladder itself as a main competitive outlet, 2v2 tournaments, local LANs, Clans that run events...
This moment I could turn on dozens of streams running smaller tournaments and competitions.
What exactly is it we're missing? Amateur play yes, but community no. I think what he's saying is even if you win every under masters cup, nobody will know who you are and you'll likely make no more friends.
The reverse is a problem too. Im in master league, im not on some team, Im not good enough to get on a good team. If I play in the master cups I just get wrecked about 3 games in by someone many many times better than I am and then I'm done. There's no community building there.
What we need is a CSL for everyone. A league that applies proleague style matchups for Team vs Team.
Then we need a ranking system for the teams similar to the way CS used to do it. The better your team, the better their division. When you join you start in the open league, with good performance you move to amateur then later to professional.
We need a multi tiered support system for SC2 and a clan tag feature along with moderated chat channels in BNET to really get low level clans going. If you can have a low level clan with multi tiered skill squads competing in these multi div tournaments you could have tons of fun. The point isnt to get exposed and be an amazing player. Its to have fun, make friends, and hopefully just enjoy the game beyond ladder and watching streams. If you have something to practice for, you will get better as a player much quicker.
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Yeah exactly.
Obviously you cant just take the old CAL format, and apply it to sc2. I know its not a direct translation that were looking for
I just think that there needs to be some serious thought and work put towards the amateur competition, and this is a good template for how I would like to see it
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Seems like the discussion in this thread is done. Feel free to pm me with any ideas or topics to dicuss.
Don't let this topic did. Talk to the higher ups. Get this noticed. Thanks guys
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make tourneys for low to mid master league :D ...i am tired of getting powned by people like TSL_Revival in playhems...how can i ever make money out of this game when these people with genetic advantages ruin my chances TT.
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There is actually plenty of it, Playhems, Z33k, SCVRush.
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Thanks for reading the thread giga
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EPT
