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I recently saw 2 posts on screddit about the lack of amateur leagues and tournaments in SC2. These posts were largely made by ex counter-strike players like myself. I think that the lack of amateur competition in starcraft 2 is a serious hindrance to the scene and needs to be looked into and done something about.
I've started to realize that the majority of lower level players in this game have never had any notable involvement with amateur competitive gaming. I see this as a big problem because I think its a key component to growing the game as a esport, as well as pushing the community to new heights.
Yeah, I love this game. But how much can a guy ladder against strangers day in and day out when he has no real aspirations of becoming a pro player? The game is so big, that laddering and getting matched up against anonymous opponents for hours every day leaves out a key sense of community. Sure you could message people after games, practice with them, chat with them etc. But theres little to no sense of community at this level.
Personally, it also hurts my ambition to practice. What am I practicing for? Hopes of going big in the scene one day? Do I really need a reason to practice, or should I just play my heart out in the search of "becoming a better gamer"?
This may well be where people disagree with me, but I need more. I need to make friends. I need to be involved in a larger scene. I need to make enemies. I love to talk shit, all in good fun. I need competition that I can work for and look forward to. Whether its being streamed and casted, if theres money on the line. That shit does not matter to me.
I played counter-strike for years and years. I played it like crazy, practicing with my same 5 person team day in and day out. Why? Because we loved the thrill of playing matches. It didnt matter that no one watched.
There was no money on the line, just bragging rights. The fact that if you did good, people would start to know who you are. People would recognize you in IRC, in scrims, on GotFrag or the cal forums. You would get a reputation. You keep winning and you get moved up a division, now you're playing even better players. The people that you're playing against now are the beasts that you looked up to when you were just a scrub in the open divison. You're playing against the hot shots that wouldnt even let your team scrim them because they considered it a waste of time.
It was the most beautiful, exciting competitive atmosphere i've ever been a part of.
I think shows like day[9] daily and the like are a great idea, to help players become better. But there seems to be this idea that there is the pros, and there is everyone else beneath them all on the same team, helping each other out and being ridiculously nice to each other in hopes of one day maybe becoming pro gamers together.
I personally find that boring and bland. I want to compete against people that I see posting on TL. I want to talk shit to people that are around my same skill level.
I just need a competitive outlet in this game. I'll never be a pro gamer, but why does that mean that I have to spend all my time laddering alone and watching streams of these idolized keyboard warriors standing on pedestals because of some tournament win that got them a big name sponsorship?
I love watching tournaments, and high level competitive play. But why the fuck is following these teams like a reality tv show how I spend my time opposed to being a member of a community that ACTUALLY COMPETES AGAINST EACH OTHER. Being mannered is great and all, but I just want to be able to stomp some nerd in a match, post the results on a website for all to see, and maybe JUST MAYBE talk some shit to him on a forum.
I'm rambling and way off track by now, I doubt any of you even care about how great I think amateur competition was in cs.
Basically what I'm saying is that I think this game really needs one or two well run, competitive amateur leagues/tournaments. Something that encompasses an entire community for a while, where you have prominent figures that aren't being paid salary by sponsorships. People who can speak their minds, and for the worse players to look at and want to beat. I think that something like this is entirely achievable and would benefit the community in great ways.
If theres any interest in this at all, feel free to send me a PM. I have a lot more ideas and a lot less complaining. I just needed to get this off my chest
 
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What are you talking about? I see several tournaments for players of ANY league on a daily basis and there are threads where you can find players of any race you want to practice with.
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All tournaments that fill up a 64 person bracket, at the very most, with only a handful of players that compete in the tournaments on a regular basis. Tournaments without an active forum community, with maybe 100 people idling their channel on battle.net.
There is no prominent figures in the scenes that go along with those communities. Theres little to no communication between players.
Atleast in my experiences.. i've looked around and played in some dailies, but this is the feeling i've gotten
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There's quite definitely no lack in amateur play.
From Daily Playhem, Z33k, Beyond Gaming, Sticky Flames etc... tournaments, we've also got high amatuer CSL, After Hours Gaming League, Female only tournaments, constant qualifiers for training team spots or invites to things, we've got the ladder itself as a main competitive outlet, 2v2 tournaments, local LANs, Clans that run events...
This moment I could turn on dozens of streams running smaller tournaments and competitions.
What exactly is it we're missing?
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From my experiences, there is little to no active community interaction with those tournaments. Most people have no idea who the players they're playing are, and will probably never come into contact with them again. I feel like there is a lack of long term interaction when it comes to communities centered around these tournaments and leagues. I think that takes a lot out of the whole thing, at least for me. These daily tournaments happen all the time, think of how many players lose in the first round and never try it out again. Its a revolving door of competitors.
There isnt really anything wrong with how it is now. I just think it lacks a lot of great experiences that can come with a more involved community and a larger, more tight knit scene
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What you need is something like the D Ranks Team League that Brood War has; team leagues have good communities normally and the teams get quite tight knit, so it's a good way to build the community.
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That sounds interesting..
Another thing is that I realize that matchmaking in a game with so many players definitely causes a lot of anonymity in a community. Its a great system for practicing, but obviously the game will never be like CS where you have to seek out and talk to people at your skill level to get evenly matched competitive practice.
But I think the main thought behind the post is still relevant
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What you are talking about is one of the reason I started the Semi-Pro Gaming League. Lower league players, those that aren't pro but still want to improve really need support from others that feel the same way and an amateur league really supports that way of thinking. As a second point it also let's player A meet player B and they both begin to improve more than they would on just the normal ladder.
It's that atmosphere of competition that builds up better players. You ever wonder why certain areas of the world, or even the country tend to be best for certain sports? It's because of the high levels of competition at those lower levels that keep producing better and better players: Hockey players from Canada and Russia for instance.
But what I wanted to say is I think you should check out the SPGL. We're moving into season 2 and have made a bunch of changes for it based on player feedback.
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When I see topics of this nature, I often agree and wonder why sc2 hasn't already developed something similar. Then I read the comments, and almost all of them speak about daily/weekly tournaments and "viewership", which makes me think they are missing the point.
I play a lot in playhems and z33k tourneys, I play a lot of ladder, I look for events all the time. I just don't see any that are really what I'm looking for. Daily/Weekly tournaments are fun, don't get me wrong, I love the thrill of placing high in them, but I don't get any lasting pleasure or memories from them.
I feel like it's so hard to find anything close to what we had in CS, there's no IRC for sc2, theres no #findteam or anything like that where teams are actively recruiting. I have no idea where to find teams recruiting, I have no idea where to find team leagues and what not. The closest thing i've come to that is finding practice partners, which is cool and fun.
Honestly though, I think all of that is missing because of the ladder. We don't have to look for practice games (what us cs players would call scrims) ourselves, we already have some "ranking" and for most people that's enough. I guess we're just spoiled.
Regardless, could anybody point me to how to find a team without just finding a random ad, is there some central location that people recruit at?
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You get it. Thanks bru, good luck
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THIS. There are so many great players who really are better than a lot of the established pros but don't get enough attention because it's near impossible to break into the scene without luck right now.
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I see what you're saying and i feel like starcraft2 is really lacking in that right now and it would be nice to see something like it
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Team Liquid itself would have to start its own amateur league in order to have the ideal amateur league. Could they make it work? uhhhhhhh yeah duhhhhh
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As an aspiring pro-gamer who migrated from fighting game, starcraft is severely lacking in its amateur culture. Playhem, Z33k do not count as they are enter, leave and Playhem is a joke as far as helping amateurs get noticed. Name 2 amateur players who have recently won a Playhem in the last 6 months...oh...whats that?...right.
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This is why, at least from what I understand, WC3 was a much better game for competitive amateurs. Automatically generated daily tournaments? I mean that's so fucking cool, and no one these days wants to mess around with a ladder system that isn't built into the game if possible. It would greatly help to foster amateur talent if there was even a small bit of glory on the line, like portraits or a special icon for your buildings/units that count you as a daily tournament champion.
"A man will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon." - Napoleon
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Blizzard really should have integrated a Tournament system into Bnet years ago.
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On September 19 2012 10:49 elctrc_wzrd wrote:
As an aspiring pro-gamer who migrated from fighting game, starcraft is severely lacking in its amateur culture. Playhem, Z33k do not count as they are enter, leave and Playhem is a joke as far as helping amateurs get noticed. Name 2 amateur players who have recently won a Playhem in the last 6 months...oh...whats that?...right.
PeGaSuS and SS have won 5 between them, and I doubt you've heard of Turuk or Verdi either (who have won 3 and 2, respectively). Scarlett also made herself known by winning a Playhem qualifier for IPL4
edit: also I can't tell if the goal here is to get amateurs noticed, or to develop an amateur scene. there's a vibrant and healthy amateur scene, but pretty much nobody pays attention to it. the EU scene does a pretty good job, though... things like ZOTAC and MSI Pro Cup and RSL have incredibly high level of play and lots of "unknown" players but nobody watches
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As an ex-CS1.6 player who participated in amateur leagues for many many years, I completely agree with the sentiments expressed by the OP. I don't know if anything like CS1.6's amateur scene could be created in SC2, but even a close approximation would go a long way to making this an eSport for more than the top 1%.
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Playhem has a Cash Daily for almost each league every day. So many options but Starcraft people are extremely picky and don't really like watch players that are worse then them. If we do get more please don't exclude Master's from playing we are just as amateur as the rest of you guys!
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Also CSL is one of the best amateur leagues I've ever had the pleasure of being a part of. So much fun, some of the best memories from freshman year were my CSL team competing together.
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You guys mentioning the Playhems probably don't realize that it's usually pros winning those, thus stealing the recognition from amateurs.
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i completely understand. i come from the FPS community as well and your post rang well and true with me. i agree :D
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Thanks for all the support guys. I noticed alot of the same talk today on reddit, and it got a lot more negative feedback. I think we should keep going with these ideas and not let it just go away. It would be amazing. Keep the topic alive and more people will hear it.
I'll probably write some more detailed and thought out shit in the near future. This needs to be talked about more, and not just from cs players >.>
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On September 19 2012 11:02 _Search_ wrote:
Blizzard really should have integrated a Tournament system into Bnet years ago.
Not sure if you're trying to be ironic or just genuinely uninformed, but Warcraft 3 had this.
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All the amateur cups that do exist don't publicize themselves as much as they should. But i agree completely with you OP, amateur scene is severely lacking. Makes playing this game for any high goals really hard. Like for me it used to be trying to make it into GM, and now that i have , there are no goals for me anymore, and the game is not as alluring and awesome as it once was.
Don't get me wrong though, i still love this game and play it a good bit, but its lost the charm it had for me back when i was diamond league.
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On September 19 2012 11:29 mizU wrote:
You guys mentioning the Playhems probably don't realize that it's usually pros winning those, thus stealing the recognition from amateurs.
Also this isn't so bad, considering that if you as an amateur reach that finals, or get through some of the top pros, you gain more rep than you would by getting to a finals by just smashing a bunch of less skilled people, yeah?
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On September 19 2012 09:49 EnderSword wrote:
There's quite definitely no lack in amateur play.
From Daily Playhem, Z33k, Beyond Gaming, Sticky Flames etc... tournaments, we've also got high amatuer CSL, After Hours Gaming League, Female only tournaments, constant qualifiers for training team spots or invites to things, we've got the ladder itself as a main competitive outlet, 2v2 tournaments, local LANs, Clans that run events...
This moment I could turn on dozens of streams running smaller tournaments and competitions.
What exactly is it we're missing?
I think he's grunting about the lack of publicity. Sure the hardcore, or people who participate in them, are going to be noticed but everyone outside are searching for these niche of competition.
It would be cool for someone to make a list and smack on a website saying: Amatuer tournaments!
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Canada13389 Posts
On September 19 2012 10:13 Drogith wrote:What you are talking about is one of the reason I started the Semi-Pro Gaming League. Lower league players, those that aren't pro but still want to improve really need support from others that feel the same way and an amateur league really supports that way of thinking. As a second point it also let's player A meet player B and they both begin to improve more than they would on just the normal ladder. It's that atmosphere of competition that builds up better players. You ever wonder why certain areas of the world, or even the country tend to be best for certain sports? It's because of the high levels of competition at those lower levels that keep producing better and better players: Hockey players from Canada and Russia for instance. But what I wanted to say is I think you should check out the SPGL. We're moving into season 2 and have made a bunch of changes for it based on player feedback.
Sounds AMAZING. Where does Ontario Canada fit in? Im in eastern Ontario. Is there a region for Canada?
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On September 19 2012 11:29 mizU wrote:
You guys mentioning the Playhems probably don't realize that it's usually pros winning those, thus stealing the recognition from amateurs.
I don't think Pros are winning the 5$ bronze/silver 10$ gold/plat tournaments that are hosted daily. That would be cheating.
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On September 19 2012 12:24 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 11:29 mizU wrote:
You guys mentioning the Playhems probably don't realize that it's usually pros winning those, thus stealing the recognition from amateurs. I don't think Pros are winning the 5$ bronze/silver 10$ gold/plat tournaments that are hosted daily. That would be cheating.
I think it happens a lot more than you think.
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On September 19 2012 12:18 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 10:13 Drogith wrote:What you are talking about is one of the reason I started the Semi-Pro Gaming League. Lower league players, those that aren't pro but still want to improve really need support from others that feel the same way and an amateur league really supports that way of thinking. As a second point it also let's player A meet player B and they both begin to improve more than they would on just the normal ladder. It's that atmosphere of competition that builds up better players. You ever wonder why certain areas of the world, or even the country tend to be best for certain sports? It's because of the high levels of competition at those lower levels that keep producing better and better players: Hockey players from Canada and Russia for instance. But what I wanted to say is I think you should check out the SPGL. We're moving into season 2 and have made a bunch of changes for it based on player feedback. Sounds AMAZING. Where does Ontario Canada fit in? Im in eastern Ontario. Is there a region for Canada?
Aboslutely. We cover Canada, US, Mexico, Islands, and the rest of Central America. For season 2 Ontario fits in the Northeast region. The website is in process of being updated as we move to season 2.
Sorry about the brief hijack XD
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I know what you mean. And I feel like the problem is team liquid. In all other competitive games I have played, all the players have been spread about on multiple small community sites. Thus allowing lots of small amateur competitive scenes to grow. But with SC2 everything is centered around team liquid. And who wants to spend an hour watching/reading results about some diamond level no namers that you have never interacted with before when you could simply follow all the top level players.
There is really not much that can be done about it though sadly.
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You practice to have fun, you play the game to have fun. You dont have to be a pro someday. idiot
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On September 19 2012 13:02 skatblast wrote:
You practice to have fun, you play the game to have fun. You dont have to be a pro someday. idiot
Read the post moron. Pretty sure i said 2 or 3 times that i am NOT an aspiring progamer. Thats the point, is i want amateur competition, opposed to professional.
I swear there needs to be aptitude tests for forums
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OP makes excellent points on the community interaction within existing amateur leagues. Lets be real, guys, Playhem has no story lines, nothing to keep track of, nothing to endear it to the amateur player other than a small cash prize. The most exciting part about Playhem is that current pros participate in it, and if you are good enough you have a chance to face them. Most of the time, though, I never make it past 2 rounds (obviously I need more practice). Z33k I never heard of till this thread, same thing with Semi-Pro Gaming League, and I think that says something about publicity issues (I lurk SC reddit every day).
We have hundreds of thousands of people who watch the big gaming leagues and want to be part of it, but they have no idea where to start other than laddering and trying to find practice partners. I can tell you from personal experience this isn't enough. I need real community involvement with several players, maybe a team, maybe not, but just interacting with some people to help keep me interesting in playing would be awesome. I need some kind of goal to strive for that isn't as hard as the MLG Open Bracket. Another poster here was paraphrasing Napoleon, "All men are enamored of decorations". It's true! I was ELATED when I made diamond in season 1. It felt amazing. So far I have not made masters but when I do, I know that I will feel elated again. GM? You bet I'll fucking celebrate if that ever happens. BUT, even if I get these accolades, the feeling I get from them will fade, and I'll need something else. I need a great amateur league.
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Azaryah gets it 
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I think clans would help with this a lot.
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Totally agree with the statements. Would be great to widespread the community where it wouldn't be just random people you are playing against all the time. Have always loved my experience with the Cod4 competition community, and would love to see something like it happen for Starcraft.
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I'd have to agree ... i have a thirst to play in tournaments for SC2. I dont' have aspirations of being a pro, i love my job, and i want to do that. But i also love to compete ... it's a bit like playing a sport. Scocer, Footy, Baseball, whatever. You know you aren't going to be pro, but you still love playing the game at your level.
I loved CS for this. I played CS, got recognized for just being regulars on certain aussie servers, got into a clan. Now just getting into the clan .... well that's not terribly special, but i DID love the fact that, as a clan, we'd practice once a week together on a server, and leading up to a clan war, you'd practice your ass off so you'd not let your team down and potentially come top score on a map.
That shit made CS so much fun. Fucking Clan wars. The sense that i had something to work for, teammates to not let down, rival teams to compete against. Jumping onto a server with it full of a rival clan, and then you raping all of them, was one of the best feelings in CS.
I would love for this to be a reality in SC2. EGMC style clan wars where you send out your 3 best players in 3 best of 3's.
Then one off PIL Fight Club style where just 1 of each team just has a showmatch for clan prestiege or whatever.
Imagine being picked as an ace and winning clan war for your team ?
Hook that shit to my veins.
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Long time reader of TL, signed up to post on this thread (don't know why it's taken so long!). This post is mainly aimed for those on the SEA server, sorry to the guys in NA!
It has been an ongoing issue for awhile now, and as an old BW player (Extortionist) in the aus-1 scene, we formed a really tight knit community of like minded individuals. I'm currently in FaDe, and being in a team/clan has bought back some of those memories, but there still seems to be a lot missing.
SiliconSports is currently working on bringing amateur tournaments to the SEA server. We are toying with different idea's at the moment, but we are mainly looking at ways to bring the community together and give players of all skill levels the chance to compete and have some fun with like minded individuals on a regular basis.
We'd love to hear what you guys think, and to also field suggestions directly from the community that we wish to serve (Feel free to PM me!).
Starcraft, to many of us, has always been about the amazing community, and we need to really give it a kick in the guts that it truly deserves.
Cheers,
Psy
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Too bad its on sea. GL man
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I think a team league organizer in game would really help. I have a few friends who are part of clans that do team league battles against other divisions in their clan at low levels all the way up to GM players so it does exist. I would love to see an in game option though with a LF team chat to make friends and root for each other in close team league matches.
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On September 19 2012 13:22 ReturnStroke wrote:
I think clans would help with this a lot. Yes it hela alot, after i found My clan it feels more fun and serious in some way.
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Team leagues seem like an interesting idea. I imagine they would work pretty well at an amateur level.. very cool
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I think part of it has to do with the mentality of the players. A lot of them seem like they think if they just practice on ladder enough they'll eventually be pro. Why bother with amateur tournaments? I disagree with that mentality but I've heard it out there.
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The one thing SC2 needs is a WELL orginized Platnum/Diamond Teamleague and a Gold/Silver one.
Take a lesson from Nikon and his D rank TeamLeague http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349433
Even tho BW is a lot smaller it manages Teamleagues and Starleagues for D and C players. SC2 does have tournaments and such, but nobody is actually putting in the effort for a Low level Teamleague well there were a couple, but they were all badly organized. SC2 actually needs one with a lot of effort put into it.
While SC2 has a lot of *Tournaments* for Low leagues it doesn't actually have Starleagues with long spans (1month) with round robin and group stages even Ladder stages (Something that SC2 is really missing a stage where people just play each other in mass and have the server record it and then the best 32 qualify for Ro32)
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I've played z33k tourneys. Though they are cool they arent really what my post was about. All power to them though
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I agree with everything within the OP,
There is great problems with the whole community aspect of this game and there has been this problem since the start, the limited chat sizes & no control over chat rooms, the lack of community and the lack of playing against the same people unless your at grandmasters/high masters is not particularly a problem but it does cause need to ask yourself, " why am I playing this game without aspirations to go pro". I think that basically the size of Starcraft causes these issues, although alot more thought could have went into the chat and community system in Starcraft to begin with, especially the fact that team/clan system within Starcraft is already 2 years late which is pretty pathetic and Blizzard really need to pull the finger out and make Starcraft players interact with each other more.
As far as talking shit, all in fun, brings me back to Empire Earth and AoE3 and the as you say, respect within the community is a much sought after recognition that although it has no value, its the sentiment of appreciation that many amateur players look for from Starcraft, although I'm not exactly sure what can be done to increase community interactions and the likes but I'm sure amateur leagues would make an impact and I would like to help wherever I can.
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On September 19 2012 13:42 Tingles wrote:
That shit made CS so much fun. Fucking Clan wars. The sense that i had something to work for, teammates to not let down, rival teams to compete against. Jumping onto a server with it full of a rival clan, and then you raping all of them, was one of the best feelings in CS.
I would love for this to be a reality in SC2. EGMC style clan wars where you send out your 3 best players in 3 best of 3's.
Then one off PIL Fight Club style where just 1 of each team just has a showmatch for clan prestiege or whatever.
Imagine being picked as an ace and winning clan war for your team ?
Hook that shit to my veins.
But Starcraft is a 1v1 game, now 5v5
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On September 19 2012 14:35 thezanursic wrote:The one thing SC2 needs is a WELL orginized Platnum/Diamond Teamleague and a Gold/Silver one. Take a lesson from Nikon and his D rank TeamLeague http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349433Even tho BW is a lot smaller it manages Teamleagues and Starleagues for D and C players. SC2 does have tournaments and such, but nobody is actually putting in the effort for a Low level Teamleague well there were a couple, but they were all badly organized. SC2 actually needs one with a lot of effort put into it.
There was a league called Valor in SC2 that ran for a good few seasons and they posted regular forum threads at the beginning of each season. But in general that's really hard to do in SC2 for two reasons.
First, as you said, TL BW community is a lot smaller and tighter, most people know each other at least from forums/IRC and that gives some additional context to the competition. Moreover, these leagues are significant enough and get a lot of attention in such a small scene, whereas threads and streams for an SC2 league of the sort would struggle to remain on top page of SC2 Tournaments forum section, and would get largely ignored by anyone not participating in the league.
Secondly, it's much more difficult to progress from D (even more so from C) ranks in BW than it takes for an active Bronze-Plat player to get promoted, so as a result you see many of the same people competing in D and C ranks for multiple seasons. If you have a completely new roster of players each season, then it's really no different from low level Playhems/z33k tournaments because you can't build a community around it and people lose interest much quicker.
IMO it would be much easier to run low level tournaments based on some smaller community away from teamliquid. Whether that's a local (geographically speaking) community or a general gaming / specific game community, basically a place where such a league would have enough importance to maintain interest.
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I believe you just remember being more involved in counter strike? FPS tournaments/style is different from the Starcraft Scene... the community is amazing, and did you even watch WCU? like best tournament ever...
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I'm just curious, are people still playing at lower levels? I love the game and the community but damn the ladder grind of games at lower levels. I don't play the game to become a pro gamer but sure to improve and have fun and get in-game rewards. But on my level the game is really shit (forever gold) in that sense. The mechanics of the game is great but i really can't be arsed grinding games on the ladder for the sake of it.
And nothing really happens either. I never understod how you got promoted. When i played i had a pretty even win ration, a little more wins than loses but I never got promoted to platinum season after season. At the end of the seasons i had like 60 wins and 50 lost games maybe.
Maybe RTS isn't for me when i play but i wouldn't watch any other eSport game though, StarCraft 2 has the best eSport scene!
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integrated tourney into sc2 for each league would silence this thread...plz blizz bring it in
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On September 19 2012 16:08 etofok wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 13:42 Tingles wrote:
That shit made CS so much fun. Fucking Clan wars. The sense that i had something to work for, teammates to not let down, rival teams to compete against. Jumping onto a server with it full of a rival clan, and then you raping all of them, was one of the best feelings in CS.
I would love for this to be a reality in SC2. EGMC style clan wars where you send out your 3 best players in 3 best of 3's.
Then one off PIL Fight Club style where just 1 of each team just has a showmatch for clan prestiege or whatever.
Imagine being picked as an ace and winning clan war for your team ?
Hook that shit to my veins.
But Starcraft is a 1v1 game, now 5v5
Yeah, you have 4 1v1's in a clan war, with BO3's for each game? Look at EG Masters Cup. Perfect example of a team competition.
Or even GSTL for that matter. Pick from a pool of players in a BO 7/ 9, with potential for All Kill.
What do you mean "1v1 game, now 5v5" ? I don't understand what you are trying to say =/
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On September 19 2012 17:10 Tingles wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 16:08 etofok wrote:On September 19 2012 13:42 Tingles wrote:
That shit made CS so much fun. Fucking Clan wars. The sense that i had something to work for, teammates to not let down, rival teams to compete against. Jumping onto a server with it full of a rival clan, and then you raping all of them, was one of the best feelings in CS.
I would love for this to be a reality in SC2. EGMC style clan wars where you send out your 3 best players in 3 best of 3's.
Then one off PIL Fight Club style where just 1 of each team just has a showmatch for clan prestiege or whatever.
Imagine being picked as an ace and winning clan war for your team ?
Hook that shit to my veins.
But Starcraft is a 1v1 game, now 5v5 Yeah, you have 4 1v1's in a clan war, with BO3's for each game? Look at EG Masters Cup. Perfect example of a team competition. Or even GSTL for that matter. Pick from a pool of players in a BO 7/ 9, with potential for All Kill. What do you mean "1v1 game, now 5v5" ? I don't understand what you are trying to say =/
I think there should be team ladders for teams of 3 or 5 with an all kill format. Would be so much more interesting to play with teams with that format because playing the team ladders now is like playing a whole another game and I don't think it's fun. 
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Why doesn't anyone create something akin to football (soccer) leagues, with promotion and relegation?
Whilst on paper it seems a bit like the normal ladder, it would be more focussed on your whole league, rather than you as an individual and whether or not you are bronze/silver/gold.
This way it rewards those who win their league, with a slight spotlight, as well as the ability to move up a league.
It will then produce familiar names in the sense that those who get demoted will be expected to get promotion next season.
You could also make it so that people who play 'at home' get map choice of all maps in the bo3, or get first and last choice?
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The hugh diffrence between starcraft and cs 1.6 is that in starcraft you can play people at your skill level and improve on ladder, there are no such thing in cs, there you've just got pubs with "newbs" and you need to play pcw(matches) and tournaments to get any competition, I think people aren't taking this into enough consideration.
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On September 19 2012 09:49 EnderSword wrote:
There's quite definitely no lack in amateur play.
From Daily Playhem, Z33k, Beyond Gaming, Sticky Flames etc... tournaments, we've also got high amatuer CSL, After Hours Gaming League, Female only tournaments, constant qualifiers for training team spots or invites to things, we've got the ladder itself as a main competitive outlet, 2v2 tournaments, local LANs, Clans that run events...
This moment I could turn on dozens of streams running smaller tournaments and competitions.
What exactly is it we're missing?
Amateur play yes, but community no. I think what he's saying is even if you win every under masters cup, nobody will know who you are and you'll likely make no more friends.
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I agree with this 100%. Another thing I find, with the massive playerbase, is that there are no LAN tournaments that anyone midmasters or below can have a hope in hell of winning, because there's always a pro there to sweep up.
I'd also say that we need stable team leagues for teams in the low masters to gold range, because at the moment there aren't really any, and teamleagues are much more exciting that solo tournaments.
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On September 19 2012 17:33 Lallis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 17:10 Tingles wrote:On September 19 2012 16:08 etofok wrote:On September 19 2012 13:42 Tingles wrote:
That shit made CS so much fun. Fucking Clan wars. The sense that i had something to work for, teammates to not let down, rival teams to compete against. Jumping onto a server with it full of a rival clan, and then you raping all of them, was one of the best feelings in CS.
I would love for this to be a reality in SC2. EGMC style clan wars where you send out your 3 best players in 3 best of 3's.
Then one off PIL Fight Club style where just 1 of each team just has a showmatch for clan prestiege or whatever.
Imagine being picked as an ace and winning clan war for your team ?
Hook that shit to my veins.
But Starcraft is a 1v1 game, now 5v5 Yeah, you have 4 1v1's in a clan war, with BO3's for each game? Look at EG Masters Cup. Perfect example of a team competition. Or even GSTL for that matter. Pick from a pool of players in a BO 7/ 9, with potential for All Kill. What do you mean "1v1 game, now 5v5" ? I don't understand what you are trying to say =/ I think there should be team ladders for teams of 3 or 5 with an all kill format. Would be so much more interesting to play with teams with that format because playing the team ladders now is like playing a whole another game and I don't think it's fun.
Not a bad idea actually!
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Yea, i agree with you. I had so much fun playing clanwars in CS and Tactical Ops, i would play Sc2 again if there would be any good clan league or even a decent 1v1 ladder, where after few months you keep playing against the same player pool, thus knowing them more and more
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Unfortunately I just don't have the ability to play in these kinds of things anyway, I don't have time anymore to wait for people to show for matches, or if I advance staying up until after midnight to play. So, in the end the ladder is the only "real" competition I can realistically participate in. Which is why I am so happy about the unranked ladder in HotS. My biggest gripe with WoL is that my "practice" and my "competition" are effectively the same thing (ladder), so it leads to a lot of awkward situations where I want to be practicing, but also feel some pressure to try hard to win even if it is counter productive to my practice.
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1) Ladder matchmaking is very good. If you ignore all the pretty icons, fluff and leagues, which get criticized often, matchmaking is actually pretty good at giving you an even opponent, if you are not in the very top or very bottom.
2) Organizations have no interests doing something like this. ESL etc. could make money off it because by selling Premium accounts, but now that games have reasonable anti-cheat and proper matchmaking and free alternatives, nobody would pay for that and thus running such services is unattractive
3) In SC2, even a medium gap of skill lead to totally one-sided games which is frustrating for one side and boring for the other. In amateur leagues, the gaps of skill can be very big.
The only amateur thing I could see bringing novelty and something exciting are clan leagues, as the team experience is something different to the anonymous ladder. The 1v1 segment is far too crowded with pros, unknown pros and semi-pros for having something even related to a prestigious tournament/ladder for amateurs. And other than prestige, these things don't have much to offer.
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I stopped playing SC2 because I just had no-one to play with but myself. All my gamer friends are US and I've got an EU account. Hopefully HOTS will fix this.
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The core problem with this is that the clan situation in this community is pretty much dead.
If there would be alot of amateur clans you would see that at least one team league pop up that would be "the shit" to play and win for the "amateur scene".
It's sad, because in BW and CS it was the shit to be accepted into a clan to practice and compete together and get your name out there and have a shot to play some bigger names.
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As a former cs 1.6 competitive player of many years through cal, cevo, esea, etc etc I completely agree.
If you think about it, the biggest problem you're identifying is not the pure sense of community, but more specifically the lack of realized upward mobility.
Put simply, if you're a low-level clan (Diamond/Masters) you will never view yourself as in the same competitive realm as the "pro" teams.
Whereas with 1.6, if you were a shit team, you were still in the same league as the pros. There were divisions, but you competed in the same arena. If you were up late at night and there was no one else scrimming you might even get a team 2 divisions above you to take a chance and scrimmage you.
I've scrimmed against EG, members of then 3D, zEx, and many other iconic pro cs 1.x-1.6 teams in my time playing CS, and it's what really made me love the game.
In SC2 you're never going to get that chance. It's a celebrity-status game, brought on by the matchmaking system and the push towards marketing the pros as on keyboard warrior pedestals (good phrasing there btw).
If nothing else, there needs to be some kind of organized lower-level competitive league where you can make tangible progress and really compete. Grinding ladder and getting to masters doesn't really give you any sense of true competition. It's a sea of faceless people you compete against who are in the same position as any player under them.
I think TL could do a huge service to the community by creating some kind of team league that inspires people to form clans and practice together for lower level players.
If all you see every day is a sea of endless faces and then 100 or so pros on the ladder, then why would you find some great joy in reaching masters? It's not like you can go on the forums and brag and shit-talk and feel some kind of accomplishment.
Manner is all well and good, but competitive games are just that, competitive. Not everyone is some introverted freshman in college who sits in their dorm room grinding games until they reach top masters and start getting noticed. There needs to be something to win at lower levels.
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PS I completely stopped playing SC2 because I saw no spark in it. I played it in beta, and through the first year or so, then trickled on and off, but I just felt no gain in winning games and grinding ladder.
It meant nothing to me. If I know I don't have the time to play 12 hours/day and go pro, and there is no amateur divisions for me to win that might require less time, then why would I grind at all?
You should be able to compete in a game even if you only have 2 hours/day or 4 hours/week to play.
You don't need to be top masters to be able to compete in a game.
People shit on league of legends, but their 5v5 ranked system is pretty on-point in terms of how it relates to cs 1.6
It inspires people to form teams, hold tryouts, make friends, etc.
Imagine if you had a matchmaking queue in SC2 where you could "queue" with 4 other players and it would automate a Bo5 Pro League-style match with another group of 5?
Imagine if your "team" could then have a record, and compete against others, and there were divisions.
This would be a step in the right direction.
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Canada13389 Posts
On September 19 2012 18:29 EnE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 09:49 EnderSword wrote:
There's quite definitely no lack in amateur play.
From Daily Playhem, Z33k, Beyond Gaming, Sticky Flames etc... tournaments, we've also got high amatuer CSL, After Hours Gaming League, Female only tournaments, constant qualifiers for training team spots or invites to things, we've got the ladder itself as a main competitive outlet, 2v2 tournaments, local LANs, Clans that run events...
This moment I could turn on dozens of streams running smaller tournaments and competitions.
What exactly is it we're missing? Amateur play yes, but community no. I think what he's saying is even if you win every under masters cup, nobody will know who you are and you'll likely make no more friends.
The reverse is a problem too. Im in master league, im not on some team, Im not good enough to get on a good team. If I play in the master cups I just get wrecked about 3 games in by someone many many times better than I am and then I'm done. There's no community building there.
What we need is a CSL for everyone. A league that applies proleague style matchups for Team vs Team.
Then we need a ranking system for the teams similar to the way CS used to do it. The better your team, the better their division. When you join you start in the open league, with good performance you move to amateur then later to professional.
We need a multi tiered support system for SC2 and a clan tag feature along with moderated chat channels in BNET to really get low level clans going. If you can have a low level clan with multi tiered skill squads competing in these multi div tournaments you could have tons of fun. The point isnt to get exposed and be an amazing player. Its to have fun, make friends, and hopefully just enjoy the game beyond ladder and watching streams. If you have something to practice for, you will get better as a player much quicker.
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Yeah exactly.
Obviously you cant just take the old CAL format, and apply it to sc2. I know its not a direct translation that were looking for
I just think that there needs to be some serious thought and work put towards the amateur competition, and this is a good template for how I would like to see it
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Seems like the discussion in this thread is done. Feel free to pm me with any ideas or topics to dicuss.
Don't let this topic did. Talk to the higher ups. Get this noticed. Thanks guys
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make tourneys for low to mid master league :D ...i am tired of getting powned by people like TSL_Revival in playhems...how can i ever make money out of this game when these people with genetic advantages ruin my chances TT.
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There is actually plenty of it, Playhems, Z33k, SCVRush.
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Thanks for reading the thread giga
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EPT
