On June 16 2012 23:44 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: I'm a Christian, but honestly a lot of other Christians piss me off. I think the Bible like any book has a moral, in this case "Don't be a fucking dick and everyone will be a-ok." That's it. No hatred of gays (that's Moses's words, so the Jews should be even more guilty of this one if anything), no "go piss off everyone around you", just don't. be. a. dick.
"Of all religions, the Christian should of course inspire the most tolerance, but until now Christians have been the most intolerant of all men." -- Voltaire
Also, concerning the fundamentalists who literally believe the Bible was written by God - doesn't the Bible start out with those little headings at the beginning of every book that says something like "the third book of Moses" or "the book of Matthew"? I thought it pointed out in a pretty obvious way that it was written by humans.
And Genesis (at least the early part from what I've been looking through) makes a lot more sense when combined with science, like evolution and Big Bang Theory. It's just basically saying that all these processes were catalyzed by someone... or something. God could just be another way of saying the Sun or the Universe.
I feel like this post is the definition of the no true scotsman fallacy.
On June 09 2012 03:19 ShadowDrgn wrote: Actually, one contradiction that bothers me about the vast majority of Christians is how casually they take the idea of Heaven/Hell. If you really believe the Bible contains crucial information about where you're going to spend eternity, shouldn't you be thoroughly studying it and applying its contents to your life? After all, what's 70-80 years on Earth compared to an eternity? How can you justify picking and choosing which parts of the Bible to follow and which to ignore; can you really trust some local pastor or even the Pope if you're Catholic? If you're reading the Bible in English, are you comfortable trusting eternity to a translator? Why aren't you learning Greek and Hebrew to make sure? If the threat of Hell is really weighing down the souls of every Christian, it certainly doesn't show.
The doctrine "salvation by faith alone",thought up by someone on the toilet, answers your question.
On June 09 2012 03:14 Chocolate wrote: The whole belief that Scripture is written by God is silly too. There is no evidence for that, and if you can find evidence of that it better not be in Scripture itself. Also, the idiots that take Genesis literally do not understand that the book was written in 600 BC, thousands of years after the events couls have occurred. .
There are plenty of flaws in Christianity to point out, but you're hilariously misinformed on this one. Nobody thinks that a big magic dude with a white robe and a beard wrote the Bible and then mailed it to Earth. Christians believe that Scripture writers were inspired by God, not that God is actually responsible for any of the words (with the possible exception of the 10 commandments) they wrote down. There's a large body of scholarship that studies which (groups of) people most likely wrote which parts of the Bible, both Testaments. Almost all of those scholars are devout Christians or Jews.
Those idiots that take Genesis literally are their own very special breed of crazy, but there's no need to lump all of Christianity in with them.
You're the misinformed one here, it seems. There are plenty of people who think that the bible is the literal word of god, written by man. Not "inspired" but actually the word of god. Same goes with muslims and the quran. It's essentially divine e-mail.. just look up Westboro Baptist Church for instance. There are a lot of religious nutjobs out there
To be fair, the guy there is equally stupid.
He was under the wrong impression that these people were there to have a discussion, or at the very least act civilized and reasonably polite... if that means he's "equally stupid," then sure
On June 14 2012 10:01 Multiplex wrote: Therefore when pressed enough times, I have been forced to respond that it just is what I believe and I have no solid reason to believe it.
This is an indication that you should think harder about it.
edit: Please understand that I'm not implying that you are wrong, that is just the conclusion you should draw from the situation you've described, and applies to anything, not just religion.
You're suggesting that is what my point of view should be on everything right?
I would like clarification on this point. I was mainly referring to things in which the actual answer cannot be known for certain. I can strongly believe that God does not exist, but when it comes down to it, I don't know whether or not it does. I don't have anything that absolutely disproves the existence of divinity, so I must fall back to faith in the fact that most or all valid evidence points to it not being necessary.
The debate on whether or not we can truly know anything is a whole different can of worms.
I'm curious if you have an alternative to that perspective?
And you need not worry, the civilized discussion that occurs in a religion thread precludes the need for disclaimers (joking, thank you for being considerate.)
On June 14 2012 10:01 Multiplex wrote: Therefore when pressed enough times, I have been forced to respond that it just is what I believe and I have no solid reason to believe it.
This is an indication that you should think harder about it.
edit: Please understand that I'm not implying that you are wrong, that is just the conclusion you should draw from the situation you've described, and applies to anything, not just religion.
You're suggesting that is what my point of view should be on everything right?
I would like clarification on this point. I was mainly referring to things in which the actual answer cannot be known for certain. I can strongly believe that God does not exist, but when it comes down to it, I don't know whether or not it does. I don't have anything that absolutely disproves the existence of divinity, so I must fall back to faith in the fact that most or all valid evidence points to it not being necessary.
The debate on whether or not we can truly know anything is a whole different can of worms.
I'm curious if you have an alternative to that perspective?
And you need not worry, the civilized discussion that occurs in a religion thread precludes the need for disclaimers (joking, thank you for being considerate.)
If you're saing, "I believe god does not exist," that's going to be tough. You may want to reconsider your position. I think you're buying into a false choice here, namely that you must chose to believe god exists or believe that he doesn't. It's acceptable to be unsure. I know most people will want to pin you down to something, but there's no shame in saying "I don't know" or "I'm not convinced either way." There's currently no proof that god exists, and, likewise, no proof that he does not.
I'm talking about what is often described as weak vs. strong atheism, or what I prefer to call atheism vs dogmatic atheism. You seem to be in the weak atheist camp, which is probably the only justifiable place you can be. This simply means you remain unconvinced by any argument for the existance of god. To be a strong (or dogmatic) atheist, you must assert that you know god does not exist. It's a tough spot to be, and makes most people who hold that position look foolish.
If this whole weak atheism thing seems kind of stupid, it's because there isn't any other area in which we define ourselves by beliefs we don't hold. It's one of the main reasons a lot of public atheists dislike the term atheism. There's no word to describe someone who lacks a belief in flying pigs.
On June 17 2012 14:57 sam!zdat wrote: If you ever feel that you don't have any solid reason to believe something, you should think about it harder. That's my point.
I'm drunk so maybe I don't understand.
I agree. You definitely should think harder, but that doesn't mean any answers are available.
On June 09 2012 03:14 Chocolate wrote: The whole belief that Scripture is written by God is silly too. There is no evidence for that, and if you can find evidence of that it better not be in Scripture itself. Also, the idiots that take Genesis literally do not understand that the book was written in 600 BC, thousands of years after the events couls have occurred. .
There are plenty of flaws in Christianity to point out, but you're hilariously misinformed on this one. Nobody thinks that a big magic dude with a white robe and a beard wrote the Bible and then mailed it to Earth. Christians believe that Scripture writers were inspired by God, not that God is actually responsible for any of the words (with the possible exception of the 10 commandments) they wrote down. There's a large body of scholarship that studies which (groups of) people most likely wrote which parts of the Bible, both Testaments. Almost all of those scholars are devout Christians or Jews.
Those idiots that take Genesis literally are their own very special breed of crazy, but there's no need to lump all of Christianity in with them.
You're the misinformed one here, it seems. There are plenty of people who think that the bible is the literal word of god, written by man. Not "inspired" but actually the word of god. Same goes with muslims and the quran. It's essentially divine e-mail.. just look up Westboro Baptist Church for instance. There are a lot of religious nutjobs out there
He was under the wrong impression that these people were there to have a discussion, or at the very least act civilized and reasonably polite... if that means he's "equally stupid," then sure
If I had to guess, going by that video, he called them up and said "I want to ask you a few questions on video", they agreed to answer questions and he wanted to go in there and have a debate; not what they agreed to.
On June 09 2012 03:14 Chocolate wrote: The whole belief that Scripture is written by God is silly too. There is no evidence for that, and if you can find evidence of that it better not be in Scripture itself. Also, the idiots that take Genesis literally do not understand that the book was written in 600 BC, thousands of years after the events couls have occurred. .
There are plenty of flaws in Christianity to point out, but you're hilariously misinformed on this one. Nobody thinks that a big magic dude with a white robe and a beard wrote the Bible and then mailed it to Earth. Christians believe that Scripture writers were inspired by God, not that God is actually responsible for any of the words (with the possible exception of the 10 commandments) they wrote down. There's a large body of scholarship that studies which (groups of) people most likely wrote which parts of the Bible, both Testaments. Almost all of those scholars are devout Christians or Jews.
Those idiots that take Genesis literally are their own very special breed of crazy, but there's no need to lump all of Christianity in with them.
You're the misinformed one here, it seems. There are plenty of people who think that the bible is the literal word of god, written by man. Not "inspired" but actually the word of god. Same goes with muslims and the quran. It's essentially divine e-mail.. just look up Westboro Baptist Church for instance. There are a lot of religious nutjobs out there
He was under the wrong impression that these people were there to have a discussion, or at the very least act civilized and reasonably polite... if that means he's "equally stupid," then sure
If I had to guess, going by that video, he called them up and said "I want to ask you a few questions on video", they agreed to answer questions and he wanted to go in there and have a debate; not what they agreed to.
Agreed. I mean, it's "the most hated family in America." Louis Theroux did a documentary on them, if anyone is interested.
I'm sorry the idea of hell is the worst idea. I'm serious, I've always wondered how grown adults believe in hell. Anyone can see that as a moral idea, it's not only grievously immoral (eternal punishment for finite crime), but it's also the most childish morality one could develop (bad people go here, good people go there).
I mean seriously, is God an idiot child? Why would he come up with such a dumb system?
And this is ignoring the fact that Christianity demands your slavery and if you refuse it's implied that you deserve hell. deserve hell? Jesus what a misanthropic concept. No, we aren't wretched little disgusting sinners that need to be kept in check, and as a human I am offended.
So yea, hell is the worst idea. Clearly not divinely inspired.
On June 09 2012 02:55 N.geNuity wrote: But Civ5 is much worse than Civ4.
I never played a civ in multiplayer UNTIL civ v for the sole reason that i find stacking not a good mechanic in multiplayer gameplay. Other than that, some changes were for the better, some not. For me, civ v wins out because it let me play the game with others.
On June 09 2012 03:14 Chocolate wrote: The whole belief that Scripture is written by God is silly too. There is no evidence for that, and if you can find evidence of that it better not be in Scripture itself. Also, the idiots that take Genesis literally do not understand that the book was written in 600 BC, thousands of years after the events couls have occurred. .
There are plenty of flaws in Christianity to point out, but you're hilariously misinformed on this one. Nobody thinks that a big magic dude with a white robe and a beard wrote the Bible and then mailed it to Earth. Christians believe that Scripture writers were inspired by God, not that God is actually responsible for any of the words (with the possible exception of the 10 commandments) they wrote down. There's a large body of scholarship that studies which (groups of) people most likely wrote which parts of the Bible, both Testaments. Almost all of those scholars are devout Christians or Jews.
Those idiots that take Genesis literally are their own very special breed of crazy, but there's no need to lump all of Christianity in with them.
You're the misinformed one here, it seems. There are plenty of people who think that the bible is the literal word of god, written by man. Not "inspired" but actually the word of god. Same goes with muslims and the quran. It's essentially divine e-mail.. just look up Westboro Baptist Church for instance. There are a lot of religious nutjobs out there
He was under the wrong impression that these people were there to have a discussion, or at the very least act civilized and reasonably polite... if that means he's "equally stupid," then sure
If I had to guess, going by that video, he called them up and said "I want to ask you a few questions on video", they agreed to answer questions and he wanted to go in there and have a debate; not what they agreed to.
I don't know what the preamble was and it really isn't relevant. It is a perfectly reasonable thing for most rational people that statements should be allowed to be discussed and that you don't attack and berate a person who is simply asking you questions, even if that person obviously has an agenda. I really don't see how you can claim he is as "equally stupid" as people who claim that every downfall the USA experiences is the wrath of god... on the one hand you have a guy who thinks that any belief should be subject to reason and the scientific method, on the other hand you have a group of fanatical extremists who aren't interested in reason at all - who thinks the USA's failure in Iraq is god's wrath, who hates homosexuals and so on. They actually think god made the iphone, for instance. Despite your one-liner suggesting the contrary, I doubt that other guy is stupid enough to have that high an opinion of Steve Jobs & co
On June 09 2012 03:14 Chocolate wrote: The whole belief that Scripture is written by God is silly too. There is no evidence for that, and if you can find evidence of that it better not be in Scripture itself. Also, the idiots that take Genesis literally do not understand that the book was written in 600 BC, thousands of years after the events couls have occurred. .
There are plenty of flaws in Christianity to point out, but you're hilariously misinformed on this one. Nobody thinks that a big magic dude with a white robe and a beard wrote the Bible and then mailed it to Earth. Christians believe that Scripture writers were inspired by God, not that God is actually responsible for any of the words (with the possible exception of the 10 commandments) they wrote down. There's a large body of scholarship that studies which (groups of) people most likely wrote which parts of the Bible, both Testaments. Almost all of those scholars are devout Christians or Jews.
Those idiots that take Genesis literally are their own very special breed of crazy, but there's no need to lump all of Christianity in with them.
You're the misinformed one here, it seems. There are plenty of people who think that the bible is the literal word of god, written by man. Not "inspired" but actually the word of god. Same goes with muslims and the quran. It's essentially divine e-mail.. just look up Westboro Baptist Church for instance. There are a lot of religious nutjobs out there
He was under the wrong impression that these people were there to have a discussion, or at the very least act civilized and reasonably polite... if that means he's "equally stupid," then sure
If I had to guess, going by that video, he called them up and said "I want to ask you a few questions on video", they agreed to answer questions and he wanted to go in there and have a debate; not what they agreed to.
I don't know what the preamble was and it really isn't relevant. It is a perfectly reasonable thing for most rational people that statements should be allowed to be discussed and that you don't attack and berate a person who is simply asking you questions, even if that person obviously has an agenda. I really don't see how you can claim he is as "equally stupid" as people who claim that every downfall the USA experiences is the wrath of god... on the one hand you have a guy who thinks that any belief should be subject to reason and the scientific method, on the other hand you have a group of fanatical extremists who aren't interested in reason at all - who thinks the USA's failure in Iraq is god's wrath, who hates homosexuals and so on. They actually think god made the iphone, for instance. Despite your one-liner suggesting the contrary, I doubt that other guy is stupid enough to have that high an opinion of Steve Jobs & co
I think it's probably difficult for people who don't live in the US to understand, and probably even for Americans who live in major cities or on either coast, but 40 percent of Americans still believe in young Earth creationism. That means that they believe the universe was created in a literal 6 day period (with one more day for god to rest) sometime in the last 6-10k years, and that god created humans in their present form. That means no evolution, no geology, no modern cosmology, etc. The Westboro Baptists are outliers in terms of their public demonstrations and how insular the group is, but their beliefs aren't really that far from "mainstream" American Christianity. If you didn't already know this, your first instinct is probably to assume the number is exagerated, or that they say they believe it but really don't. I can assure you, there's a massive audience for these sorts of ideas, and they take them very seriously.
A few hours from me, in a town called Petersburg, Kentucky, there is something called the Creation Museum. Building it was a $27 million project, and that money was not wasted. I have been there. I paid my $20 for a ticket (now apparently costs $30), and I was not alone. The place was packed. They've been so successful that they're currently working on a 1:1 scale Noahs Ark and theme park.
If you go, you'll see a lot of the things you may expect - Adam and Eve displays, a talking snake, and a lot of junk science. You'll also see some things you're probably not expecting. Dinosaurs with saddles is something that most people are surprised by, and there are a surprising number of images of women giving birth. My favorite part, though, was the display about the evils of human reason. You see, before the fall (Adam and Eve eat the fruit, get kicked out of the garden), there was no reason. They see reason as part of our imprefection, much like they see sin. Reason can only serve to undermine your faith.
On June 09 2012 03:14 Chocolate wrote: The whole belief that Scripture is written by God is silly too. There is no evidence for that, and if you can find evidence of that it better not be in Scripture itself. Also, the idiots that take Genesis literally do not understand that the book was written in 600 BC, thousands of years after the events couls have occurred. .
There are plenty of flaws in Christianity to point out, but you're hilariously misinformed on this one. Nobody thinks that a big magic dude with a white robe and a beard wrote the Bible and then mailed it to Earth. Christians believe that Scripture writers were inspired by God, not that God is actually responsible for any of the words (with the possible exception of the 10 commandments) they wrote down. There's a large body of scholarship that studies which (groups of) people most likely wrote which parts of the Bible, both Testaments. Almost all of those scholars are devout Christians or Jews.
Those idiots that take Genesis literally are their own very special breed of crazy, but there's no need to lump all of Christianity in with them.
You're the misinformed one here, it seems. There are plenty of people who think that the bible is the literal word of god, written by man. Not "inspired" but actually the word of god. Same goes with muslims and the quran. It's essentially divine e-mail.. just look up Westboro Baptist Church for instance. There are a lot of religious nutjobs out there
He was under the wrong impression that these people were there to have a discussion, or at the very least act civilized and reasonably polite... if that means he's "equally stupid," then sure
If I had to guess, going by that video, he called them up and said "I want to ask you a few questions on video", they agreed to answer questions and he wanted to go in there and have a debate; not what they agreed to.
I don't know what the preamble was and it really isn't relevant. It is a perfectly reasonable thing for most rational people that statements should be allowed to be discussed and that you don't attack and berate a person who is simply asking you questions, even if that person obviously has an agenda. I really don't see how you can claim he is as "equally stupid" as people who claim that every downfall the USA experiences is the wrath of god... on the one hand you have a guy who thinks that any belief should be subject to reason and the scientific method, on the other hand you have a group of fanatical extremists who aren't interested in reason at all - who thinks the USA's failure in Iraq is god's wrath, who hates homosexuals and so on. They actually think god made the iphone, for instance. Despite your one-liner suggesting the contrary, I doubt that other guy is stupid enough to have that high an opinion of Steve Jobs & co
I think it probably difficult for people who don't live in the US to understand, and probably even for Americans who live in major cities or on either coast, but 40 percent of Americans still believe in young Earth creationism. That means that they believe the universe was created in a literal 6 day period (with one more day for god to rest) sometime in the last 6-10k years, and that god created humans in their present form. That mean no evolution, no geology, no modern cosmology, etc. The Westboro Baptists are outliers in terms of their public demonstrations and how insular the group is, but their beliefs aren't really that far from "mainstream" American Christianity. If you didn't already know this, your first instinct is probably to assume the number is exagerated, or that they say they believe it but really don't. I can assure you, there's a massive audience for these sorts of ideas, and they take them very seriously.
A few hours from me, in a town called Petersburg, Kentucky, there is something called the Creation Museum. Building it was a $27 million project, and that money was not wasted. I have been there. I paid my $20 for a ticket (now apparently costs $30), and I was not alone. The place was packed. They've been so successful that they're currently working on a 1:1 scale Noahs Ark and theme park.
If you go, you'll see a lot of the things you may expect - Adam and Eve displays, a talking snake, and a lot of junk science. You'll also see some things you're probably not expecting. Dinosaurs with saddles is something that most people are surprised by, and there are a surprising number of images of women giving birth. My favorite part, though, was the display about the evils of human reason. You see, before the fall (Adam and Eve eat the fruit, get kicked out of the garden), there was no reason. They see reason as part of our imprefection, much like they see sin. Reason can only serve to undermine your faith.
No, I'm not kidding. This exists.
Yep. I live in Louisville, Kentucky, which has a sizeable population of Creationists in it and on its outskirts despite being a pretty major city. There are even legitimate schools, called Christian Academies, that teach this Creationism, and there is a HUGE church here that teaches this stuff as well. This is not some church with a 1,000 attendees, and it is not poor. Here is a link to its website with some of its theology. Link. I have some pictures of the Church. Picture 1Picture 2Aerial View.
As you can see, there is a ton of money involved in religion in the U.S. That's one reason why I think it is so backwards in our country: being capitalist, people can give their money to whomever they choose. These Churches make a big deal about members giving back to it, and since they don't have to pay taxes (afaik), there is actually a lot of money to be had by operating a successful, feel-good, everybody wins congregation.
EPT
