*Authors Note: Please don’t let this turn into some sort of religious debate. I write this because I hope that some non- Christians will understand us a bit more, and some Christians will understand how to compose themselves a bit more. Also let it be known that I am not trying to reduce the entire religion down to this one statement.
For the non-believers
The main thing non-believers have to understand about Christians is our understanding of life after death. Without jumping into a giant explanation backed by many different biblical sources, let me underline one important notion: Christians believe in Hell. Yes, there are a great many other things that Christians believe about life after death, and all of our crazy ideas on how to get there, but the main thing non-believers must always remember is that we believe in Hell. Imagine if you believed in a place that existed after death that was filled with an eternity of unimaginable pain. An eternity. Not until all your “bad doings” have been repaid, but forever and ever without hope of reprieve. Now if you truly believe in your heart beyond a shadow of a doubt that such a place existed, wouldn’t you want to find a way to avoid getting sent to that place? And more importantly, once you found a way to escape such unimaginable terror, wouldn’t you want to inform all of your loved ones of this method? I believe that this is at the heart of every Christian, weighing on their souls constantly. However, it seems like fewer and fewer Christians are able to conduct themselves respectfully which leads me to…..
For the believers
Let me start this with a story that happened to me a couple of years ago. When Civ 5 was released it sparked a pretty big rift between Civilization enthusiasts. Many preferred Civ 4 over Civ 5 and to this day people still argue over contrasting mechanics. (Simply search Civ 5 on TL and see what I mean). Anyways, about six months after its release I was attending a giant LAN party with all of my friends. During some of the down time in between games, I offhandedly commented on how I thought Civ 5 was the superior game in the franchise. The guy who I was talking with started to get really worked up. He loved Civ 4 and thought Civ 5 was crap. But it wasn’t enough that I knew his opinion, apparently he wouldn’t be satisfied until I agreed with him on every point. I soon grew frustrated with this guy. What’s so wrong with having two different opinions? I didn’t think of him any less for liking Civ 4, why was he getting on my case for liking Civ 5? Needless to say, I eventually became so disgusted with this guy that after our conversation concluded, I avoided him for the rest of the night. (I also KS’ed him a bunch in DOTA, heh heh!). Listen guys, this is how more and more of the world is seeing us. We come off as crazy people who are obsessed with converting everyone to our own ideas immediately. I understand the pain of watching people you love wandering through life without any direction, but the way to help them is not through a barrage of verses, and damnation promises. We must reach out in love, to lead by example and through our actions. It is perfectly fine to let people know where your principles lie, but remember not to shove them down their throats. Lastly, remember that prayer is our biggest weapon against the forces of evil, and to trust in His will, and try not to enforce our own.
Every time I hear someone say something like this;
" Imagine if you believed in a place that existed after death that was filled with an eternity of unimaginable pain. An eternity. Not until all your “bad doings” have been repaid, but forever and ever without hope of reprieve. Now if you truly believe in your heart beyond a shadow of a doubt that such a place existed, wouldn’t you want to find a way to avoid getting sent to that place?",
all I can do is feel sorry for them. What a waste of a life to live in perpetual fear.
Pascal's Wager ("I'm going to believe Hell/ Heaven exists *just in case*") is a logical fallacy. This is the best video I've ever watched that explains why it completely breaks down at all levels:
There may be other reasons to be a Christian/ theist... but Pascal's Fallacy is not a good one.
do you feel you require to believe in the threat of getting in to hell in order to have enough motivation to be a nice person? I am pretty sure, i for my part can be a nice person without being forced into it by fearing some impending doom if i wouldn't, is that different for you?
On June 09 2012 02:40 Myrkskog wrote: Every time I hear someone say something like this;
" Imagine if you believed in a place that existed after death that was filled with an eternity of unimaginable pain. An eternity. Not until all your “bad doings” have been repaid, but forever and ever without hope of reprieve. Now if you truly believe in your heart beyond a shadow of a doubt that such a place existed, wouldn’t you want to find a way to avoid getting sent to that place?",
all I can do is feel sorry for them. What a waste of a life to live in perpetual fear.
Some people focus on that, some don't. I believe it's a truth but I don't live in perpetual fear. OP makes it sound that way so I understand your comment but it's a little sweeping on his part. There's a healthy balance between a respectful awe of your Creator and a loving devotion to please him. I don't think you can have one without the other.
On June 09 2012 02:55 N.geNuity wrote: But Civ5 is much worse than Civ4.
Yup
The reason atheists make fun of you all so much is that you believe that a God who does not only love you all but is in fact love itself would damn one's soul for eternity because they did not worship him.
Also you all are hypocrites with the whole Old Testament (and the new one). You say God outlawed homosexuality and actively hate homos, but then eat pork and shellfish, wear clothes of multiple materials, and eat cheese with your meat. In the NT, Jesus says to love one another, but you all most certainly do not do this. The typical conservative Christian is for gun rights, for the death penalty, pro-life, and stereotypically anti-Arab.
The whole belief that Scripture is written by God is silly too. There is no evidence for that, and if you can find evidence of that it better not be in Scripture itself. Also, the idiots that take Genesis literally do not understand that the book was written in 600 BC, thousands of years after the events couls have occurred.
For miracles, why would God simply stop giving us miracles in this day and age? Sure, Jesus rose from the dead, but now the faith healer in Idaho can't even make a cripple walk. If God loved us so much and was all-powerful, why would not he show beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is real?
I guess what I am trying to say here is that athiests dislike Christians brcause they are illogical and wrong, as opposed to caring of others.
Why do Christians always try to explain themselves to non-believers, rather than try to understand the non-believers' standpoint?
Like, do you not realize the hypocrisy at all? Maybe it is you who should attempt to understand that believing in a place filled with eternal torment may sound a bit weird to some people?
I get that you're -trying- to foster communication, but you do not seem to realize at all that the way I see it, for you communication is a one-way street from you to me. You don't seem to care at all what I think or why.
EDIT: To be specific, I am directly and only referring to your blog, not all Christians or whatever. Specifically your blog is written as such.
Actually, one contradiction that bothers me about the vast majority of Christians is how casually they take the idea of Heaven/Hell. If you really believe the Bible contains crucial information about where you're going to spend eternity, shouldn't you be thoroughly studying it and applying its contents to your life? After all, what's 70-80 years on Earth compared to an eternity? How can you justify picking and choosing which parts of the Bible to follow and which to ignore; can you really trust some local pastor or even the Pope if you're Catholic? If you're reading the Bible in English, are you comfortable trusting eternity to a translator? Why aren't you learning Greek and Hebrew to make sure? If the threat of Hell is really weighing down the souls of every Christian, it certainly doesn't show.
On June 09 2012 02:55 N.geNuity wrote: But Civ5 is much worse than Civ4.
Yup
The reason atheists make fun of you all so much is that ... ... ... I guess what I am trying to say here is that athiests dislike Christians brcause they are illogical and wrong, as opposed to caring of others.
While I pretty much agree with the points you stated, I'm sure you just helped this blog get closed/ scrutinized (although to be fair, the OP was asking for it, eventually...).
On June 09 2012 03:14 Chocolate wrote: The whole belief that Scripture is written by God is silly too. There is no evidence for that, and if you can find evidence of that it better not be in Scripture itself. Also, the idiots that take Genesis literally do not understand that the book was written in 600 BC, thousands of years after the events couls have occurred. .
There are plenty of flaws in Christianity to point out, but you're hilariously misinformed on this one. Nobody thinks that a big magic dude with a white robe and a beard wrote the Bible and then mailed it to Earth. Christians believe that Scripture writers were inspired by God, not that God is actually responsible for any of the words (with the possible exception of the 10 commandments) they wrote down. There's a large body of scholarship that studies which (groups of) people most likely wrote which parts of the Bible, both Testaments. Almost all of those scholars are devout Christians or Jews.
Those idiots that take Genesis literally are their own very special breed of crazy, but there's no need to lump all of Christianity in with them.
My problem with religion is that most of them revolve around the same thing. The Bible.
Christians Baptists Catholics Mormons etc.,
Who's to say who is right? The Bible is interpreted and misinterpreted many different ways. You have "Non-Denominational" Churches as well which basically means they interpret the Bible however they want to. Pick and Choose like the bible is a la carte or something.
Hell, the Mormons call themselves Christians because they believe in the bible too. Well guess what they also believe that Joseph Smith, a mere man, was able to carry 200 pound Gold plates in his arms while running from thieves. They believe that the Garden of Eden was actually in Missouri, and that any person of Dark skin was cursed by God himself. Yet they call themselves Christians as well.
Who's to say who is right? Who's to say that Christians will go to Heaven and when they get there they see their Mormon Friends up in some higher celestial cloud with their own mansion on their planet. Meanwhile the strictly "Bible believing" Christians are now only mere peasants in heaven because they didn't heed the prophecy of Joseph Smith?
Faith, in my opinion, is just a term for someone believing the outright unbelievable.
On June 09 2012 03:14 Chocolate wrote: The whole belief that Scripture is written by God is silly too. There is no evidence for that, and if you can find evidence of that it better not be in Scripture itself. Also, the idiots that take Genesis literally do not understand that the book was written in 600 BC, thousands of years after the events couls have occurred. .
There are plenty of flaws in Christianity to point out, but you're hilariously misinformed on this one. Nobody thinks that a big magic dude with a white robe and a beard wrote the Bible and then mailed it to Earth. Christians believe that Scripture writers were inspired by God, not that God is actually responsible for any of the words (with the possible exception of the 10 commandments, but whatever). There's a large body of scholarship that studies which (groups of) people most likely wrote which parts of the Bible, both Testaments. Almost all of those people are devout Christians or Jews.
...Except that there have been councils over the years arbitrarily deciding which gospels to take into the compilation and which to throw out, using the gospels that match (because they were written based off previous ones), etc. etc. So it's rather silly to have that deity-inspired belief in the first place (completely ignoring the fact that so many of the Bible's historical and scientific claims are strictly falsified by facts, and the supernatural ones are just plain unverifiable... and the moral code is outdated lol).
Discussion with any hint of religion on the internet- BAD BAD BAD BAD. Things are bound to go horribly lol.
My mother's side of the family are freaking devout Catholics. I spent my early childhood being engulfed in the church and their weird religious classes and activities. I didn't like how devoted they were, and at this point I don't even know if devout Catholics and as scary as obsessed Christians but both seem just as bad.
I still do believe in God, Heaven, and Hell though. I don't believe it as strongly as they do, and I don't have the commitment to go to church every week, but I still believe. It's a tough spot to be in especially with a family so close to the church.
On June 09 2012 03:19 ShadowDrgn wrote: Actually, one contradiction that bothers me about the vast majority of Christians is how casually they take the idea of Heaven/Hell. If you really believe the Bible contains crucial information about where you're going to spend eternity, shouldn't you be thoroughly studying it and applying its contents to your life? After all, what's 70-80 years on Earth compared to an eternity? How can you justify picking and choosing which parts of the Bible to follow and which to ignore; can you really trust some local pastor or even the Pope if you're Catholic? If you're reading the Bible in English, are you comfortable trusting eternity to a translator? Why aren't you learning Greek and Hebrew to make sure? If the threat of Hell is really weighing down the souls of every Christian, it certainly doesn't show.
I'm just offering up little bits I can respond to quickly. Simply, I'm very much a physical and spiritual being. The physical aspects as well as the self-centered aspects of life are very distracting. You bring up a very valid point, studying the Bible should be a much higher priority, but here I am browsing TL. It's always a struggle. A common concept in Christian circles is being "in the world" but not "of the world". There's a fine line between spending your time loving people and caring for creation but not so much that you forsake what God commands and teaches in the Bible. You'll often find people on the worldly side (you don't see a difference, they're like everyone else, what's so special?) or "holy" side (isolated, judgmental, has nothing to do with people not in their group). This is a sad truth Christians should strive to be inbetween where they can optimally love God and people.
On June 09 2012 02:55 N.geNuity wrote: But Civ5 is much worse than Civ4.
Yup
The reason atheists make fun of you all so much is that ... ... ... I guess what I am trying to say here is that athiests dislike Christians brcause they are illogical and wrong, as opposed to caring of others.
While I pretty much agree with the points you stated, I'm sure you just helped this blog get closed/ scrutinized (although to be fair, the OP was asking for it, eventually...).
Well if the OP can refute my points we can discuss Christianity reasonably and maybe he can try to show me why I am wrong and lead me into heaven. It is a shame that you can't make good points from the other side of the religion debate though. Plus anything on TL discussing religion should be closed imo, so why not just try to get the OP and any who may agree with him to at least question what their parents and pastors havr been telling them their whole lives before the thread gets closed? A world without religion ( I guess you would have to keep some form to get unintelligent people to behave) would be a better place imo, so we should at least show why.
And I sincerely do not care that Christians try to save us, I just want them to examine what they believe and why I think they are wrong so they don't waste their time with things like praying, mass, etc.
On June 09 2012 03:14 Chocolate wrote: The whole belief that Scripture is written by God is silly too. There is no evidence for that, and if you can find evidence of that it better not be in Scripture itself. Also, the idiots that take Genesis literally do not understand that the book was written in 600 BC, thousands of years after the events couls have occurred. .
There are plenty of flaws in Christianity to point out, but you're hilariously misinformed on this one. Nobody thinks that a big magic dude with a white robe and a beard wrote the Bible and then mailed it to Earth. Christians believe that Scripture writers were inspired by God, not that God is actually responsible for any of the words (with the possible exception of the 10 commandments, but whatever). There's a large body of scholarship that studies which (groups of) people most likely wrote which parts of the Bible, both Testaments. Almost all of those people are devout Christians or Jews.
...Except that there have been councils over the years arbitrarily deciding which gospels to take into the compilation and which to throw out, using the gospels that match (because they were written based off previous ones), etc. etc. So it's rather silly to have that deity-inspired belief in the first place (completely ignoring the fact that so many of the Bible's historical and scientific claims are strictly falsified by facts, and the supernatural ones are just plain unverifiable... and the moral code is outdated lol).
Oh, I agree, that's why I used the phrase "Christians believe", and not "we believe"... I was merely pointing out that Chocolate's taking about "the belief that Scripture is written by God" is not actually a real part of Christianity..
On June 09 2012 03:14 Chocolate wrote: The whole belief that Scripture is written by God is silly too. There is no evidence for that, and if you can find evidence of that it better not be in Scripture itself. Also, the idiots that take Genesis literally do not understand that the book was written in 600 BC, thousands of years after the events couls have occurred. .
There are plenty of flaws in Christianity to point out, but you're hilariously misinformed on this one. Nobody thinks that a big magic dude with a white robe and a beard wrote the Bible and then mailed it to Earth. Christians believe that Scripture writers were inspired by God, not that God is actually responsible for any of the words (with the possible exception of the 10 commandments) they wrote down. There's a large body of scholarship that studies which (groups of) people most likely wrote which parts of the Bible, both Testaments. Almost all of those scholars are devout Christians or Jews.
Those idiots that take Genesis literally are their own very special breed of crazy, but there's no need to lump all of Christianity in with them.
Yes, Christians do not claim that God wrote the bible physically bjt guided those who did. But that still does not explain weird laws in Leviticus that God would eventually refute. I know of the authors of thr Pentateuch like Yahwist, deutoronomist, and others but just think the claim rhat God helped write anything is silly.
On June 09 2012 03:14 Chocolate wrote: The whole belief that Scripture is written by God is silly too. There is no evidence for that, and if you can find evidence of that it better not be in Scripture itself. Also, the idiots that take Genesis literally do not understand that the book was written in 600 BC, thousands of years after the events couls have occurred. .
There are plenty of flaws in Christianity to point out, but you're hilariously misinformed on this one. Nobody thinks that a big magic dude with a white robe and a beard wrote the Bible and then mailed it to Earth. Christians believe that Scripture writers were inspired by God, not that God is actually responsible for any of the words (with the possible exception of the 10 commandments, but whatever). There's a large body of scholarship that studies which (groups of) people most likely wrote which parts of the Bible, both Testaments. Almost all of those people are devout Christians or Jews.
...Except that there have been councils over the years arbitrarily deciding which gospels to take into the compilation and which to throw out, using the gospels that match (because they were written based off previous ones), etc. etc. So it's rather silly to have that deity-inspired belief in the first place (completely ignoring the fact that so many of the Bible's historical and scientific claims are strictly falsified by facts, and the supernatural ones are just plain unverifiable... and the moral code is outdated lol).
Oh, I agree, that's why I used the phrase "Christians believe", and not "we believe"... I was merely pointing out that Chocolate's taking about "the belief that Scripture is written by God" is not actually a real part of Christianity..
EPT
