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On June 09 2012 05:32 yoshi_yoshi wrote:
As a devout agnostic, I actually think OP framed both sides quite well. Given that there are people who believe in hell and the ways to get there, how can you expect them not to push their ideas on others? It seems like the religious-nonreligious tension is unavoidable as long as there is this super-extreme idea of hell.
Quite frankly, I think that there is more to affiliating with- and not affiliating with- religion than Pascal's Fallacy... and so I don't believe he framed both sides well. He made it appear that Pascal's Wager is the primary reason for being a theist, and that's simply not the case. Most theists I know don't care nearly as much about Heaven or Hell as they do about God in general, and he really didn't peg atheism at all.
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On June 09 2012 05:33 Myrkskog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 05:13 mordek wrote:
I apologize, I misapplied "What a dick". Sorry! Did my explanation help at all though? I mean if you view it from God's perspective (hard to do) Your creation rejecting what you asked it to do could be percieved as "dickish" no? I understand the explanation, I just reject it because it's absurd and probably the most offensive line of argument that theists can make. If I have a child that I want to go to University, and they say no, so I lock them in the basement and torture them for the rest of their life, I'm a dick. It's not my "perception" that God is a dick. He is a dick(and much worse).
I see. I think the focus should be on God's holiness here. Christianity would assert that because we are imperfect and unholy we simply cannot be in his presence. This is like... gravity is just the way things work on earth. So if you don't choose to be made perfect then that's the choice. Maybe you would say why create anything like that all then?
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god personally spoke to me and told me that all you catholics, protestants, and other assorted heretics have all perverted his word. he tells me that you guys must repent and that if you do not i must do it as a true believer. since this is the truth, you should join me peacefully, no? or do i have to conduct an inquisition to sort you heretics out?
tldr: my god has a bigger dick than your god
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I don't accept the "choice" part. I don't choose to go to hell, God sends me to hell. It doesn't make it any better that I give my child the "choice" to either go the University or be tortured in my basement for the rest of their life.
All the "you send yourself to hell" argument does is demonstrate that even if God does exist(which I reject), then he is morally inferior and not worthy of my or anyone elses worship or attention.
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There's a ton of religions and a ton of them have an idea of an afterlife as well as hell. There's more people who think you're going to hell than the number of people who believe in your specific religion. Just pointing this out.
Also lol at "I don't wanna start a religious discussion or anything... but I'm gonna say something about religion addressed at religious and non religious people".
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i mean discussion is nice and all, but can't we just purge all the heretics? starting with all the guys that disagree with me.
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On June 09 2012 05:53 Caller wrote:
god personally spoke to me and told me that all you catholics, protestants, and other assorted heretics have all perverted his word. he tells me that you guys must repent and that if you do not i must do it as a true believer. since this is the truth, you should join me peacefully, no? or do i have to conduct an inquisition to sort you heretics out?
tldr: my god has a bigger dick than your god
Congratulations, you just described Mormonism down to the tee.
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It's always interesting when believers try to explain themselves to non-believers, as though non-believers don't understand them. We get it. No one needs to be told. We hear it every day from teachers, celebrities, and politcians. Most of us started out believing, only to have our faith slowly eroded by knowledge, free thought, and understanding. We understand our own position as non-believers, but also know how believers percieve us and our thoughts. We even understand you and your beliefs. Most attempts to explain yourself are redundant at best and condescending at worst.
Most believers, conversely, appear to have virtually no concept of non-belief. Almost no one is willing or able to argue for belief from a neutral perspective. It's all based on concepts inherent to the belief itself. Explaining how terrifying hell is, and why your belief in it make you want to prosthelytize does nothing to convince us of the reality of your beliefs. It doesn't make you look like a caring individual. It makes you look deluded.
If you want to be an effective advocate for your position, try to understand non-believers. We already understand you.
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On June 09 2012 05:58 DomiNater wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 05:53 Caller wrote:
god personally spoke to me and told me that all you catholics, protestants, and other assorted heretics have all perverted his word. he tells me that you guys must repent and that if you do not i must do it as a true believer. since this is the truth, you should join me peacefully, no? or do i have to conduct an inquisition to sort you heretics out?
tldr: my god has a bigger dick than your god Congratulations, you just described Mormonism down to the tee.
nonono mormonism are more heretics. they say that jesus was born in america and used english. that's pure heresy.
just like evangelicals who think that some asshole scottish/english king spoke the word of god and wrote it down in the true copy of a book. heretics.
since god is perfect, and the word of god is perfect, and so the mouth that speaks the word of god must be perfect. but british people have bad teeth, thus the word of god could not have come from king james, thus evangelicals are heretics and need to be corrected.
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On June 09 2012 06:00 Omnipresent wrote:
It's always interesting when believers try to explain themselves to non-believers, as though non-believers don't understand them. We get it. No one needs to be told. We hear it every day from teachers, celebrities, and politcians. Most of us started out believing, only to have our faith slowly eroded by knowledge, free thought, and understanding. We understand our own position as non-believers, but also know how believers percieve us and our thoughts. We even understand you and your beliefs. Most attempts to explain yourself are redundant at best and condescending at worst.
Most believers, conversely, appear to have virtually no concept of non-belief. Almost no one is willing or able to argue for belief from a neutral perspective. It's all based on concepts inherent to the belief itself. Explaining how terrifying hell is, and why your belief in it make you want to prosthelytize does nothing to convince us of the reality of your beliefs. It doesn't make you look like a caring individual. It makes you look deluded.
If you want to be an effective advocate for your position, try to understand non-believers. We already understand you.
nono, you don't understand the truth, the truth is as god told me. You have been tricked into believing a version of god's word perverted by the will of satan, who tempted humans with a simpler tongue and a simpler idea into committing sloth, and thus not reading god's words as he intended it, but instead as satan intended it. please correct your heresy and adopt the truth of god's will.
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On June 09 2012 06:03 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 06:00 Omnipresent wrote:
It's always interesting when believers try to explain themselves to non-believers, as though non-believers don't understand them. We get it. No one needs to be told. We hear it every day from teachers, celebrities, and politcians. Most of us started out believing, only to have our faith slowly eroded by knowledge, free thought, and understanding. We understand our own position as non-believers, but also know how believers percieve us and our thoughts. We even understand you and your beliefs. Most attempts to explain yourself are redundant at best and condescending at worst.
Most believers, conversely, appear to have virtually no concept of non-belief. Almost no one is willing or able to argue for belief from a neutral perspective. It's all based on concepts inherent to the belief itself. Explaining how terrifying hell is, and why your belief in it make you want to prosthelytize does nothing to convince us of the reality of your beliefs. It doesn't make you look like a caring individual. It makes you look deluded.
If you want to be an effective advocate for your position, try to understand non-believers. We already understand you. nono, you don't understand the truth, the truth is as god told me. You have been tricked into believing a version of god's word perverted by the will of satan, who tempted humans with a simpler tongue and a simpler idea into committing sloth, and thus not reading god's words as he intended it, but instead as satan intended it. please correct your heresy and adopt the truth of god's will.
What if you got tricked into believing Satan's version? Oh but that can't be, because you're perfect, and you'd never fall for Satan's little games. Or are you?
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+ Show Spoiler +
The only regret I have of being atheist is that I can't say I told you so.
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On June 09 2012 06:06 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 06:03 Caller wrote:On June 09 2012 06:00 Omnipresent wrote:
It's always interesting when believers try to explain themselves to non-believers, as though non-believers don't understand them. We get it. No one needs to be told. We hear it every day from teachers, celebrities, and politcians. Most of us started out believing, only to have our faith slowly eroded by knowledge, free thought, and understanding. We understand our own position as non-believers, but also know how believers percieve us and our thoughts. We even understand you and your beliefs. Most attempts to explain yourself are redundant at best and condescending at worst.
Most believers, conversely, appear to have virtually no concept of non-belief. Almost no one is willing or able to argue for belief from a neutral perspective. It's all based on concepts inherent to the belief itself. Explaining how terrifying hell is, and why your belief in it make you want to prosthelytize does nothing to convince us of the reality of your beliefs. It doesn't make you look like a caring individual. It makes you look deluded.
If you want to be an effective advocate for your position, try to understand non-believers. We already understand you. nono, you don't understand the truth, the truth is as god told me. You have been tricked into believing a version of god's word perverted by the will of satan, who tempted humans with a simpler tongue and a simpler idea into committing sloth, and thus not reading god's words as he intended it, but instead as satan intended it. please correct your heresy and adopt the truth of god's will. What if you got tricked into believing Satan's version? Oh but that can't be, because you're perfect, and you'd never fall for Satan's little games. Or are you?
No, I'm not perfect. God is perfect, though, and he spoke to me. I know that it was God and not Satan that spoke to me because the being that spoke to me is perfect, and therefore must have been God. Satan has spoken to me many times, but I have resisted him. Just the other day Satan told me to drop my pants in public, and I resisted his temptation of sin, as I always have.
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On June 09 2012 06:09 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 06:06 Djzapz wrote:On June 09 2012 06:03 Caller wrote:On June 09 2012 06:00 Omnipresent wrote:
It's always interesting when believers try to explain themselves to non-believers, as though non-believers don't understand them. We get it. No one needs to be told. We hear it every day from teachers, celebrities, and politcians. Most of us started out believing, only to have our faith slowly eroded by knowledge, free thought, and understanding. We understand our own position as non-believers, but also know how believers percieve us and our thoughts. We even understand you and your beliefs. Most attempts to explain yourself are redundant at best and condescending at worst.
Most believers, conversely, appear to have virtually no concept of non-belief. Almost no one is willing or able to argue for belief from a neutral perspective. It's all based on concepts inherent to the belief itself. Explaining how terrifying hell is, and why your belief in it make you want to prosthelytize does nothing to convince us of the reality of your beliefs. It doesn't make you look like a caring individual. It makes you look deluded.
If you want to be an effective advocate for your position, try to understand non-believers. We already understand you. nono, you don't understand the truth, the truth is as god told me. You have been tricked into believing a version of god's word perverted by the will of satan, who tempted humans with a simpler tongue and a simpler idea into committing sloth, and thus not reading god's words as he intended it, but instead as satan intended it. please correct your heresy and adopt the truth of god's will. What if you got tricked into believing Satan's version? Oh but that can't be, because you're perfect, and you'd never fall for Satan's little games. Or are you? No, I'm not perfect. God is perfect, though, and he spoke to me. I know that it was God and not Satan that spoke to me because the being that spoke to me is perfect, and therefore must have been God. Satan has spoken to me many times, but I have resisted him. Just the other day Satan told me to drop my pants in public, and I resisted his temptation of sin, as I always have.
So you think you're perfect because you're 100% sure the being who spoke to you is perfect. You 100% believe that Satan is too weak to fool you into thinking that he's perfect.
See I think you're fooling yourself. And perhaps you're schizophrenic.
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On June 09 2012 06:11 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 06:09 Caller wrote:On June 09 2012 06:06 Djzapz wrote:On June 09 2012 06:03 Caller wrote:On June 09 2012 06:00 Omnipresent wrote:
It's always interesting when believers try to explain themselves to non-believers, as though non-believers don't understand them. We get it. No one needs to be told. We hear it every day from teachers, celebrities, and politcians. Most of us started out believing, only to have our faith slowly eroded by knowledge, free thought, and understanding. We understand our own position as non-believers, but also know how believers percieve us and our thoughts. We even understand you and your beliefs. Most attempts to explain yourself are redundant at best and condescending at worst.
Most believers, conversely, appear to have virtually no concept of non-belief. Almost no one is willing or able to argue for belief from a neutral perspective. It's all based on concepts inherent to the belief itself. Explaining how terrifying hell is, and why your belief in it make you want to prosthelytize does nothing to convince us of the reality of your beliefs. It doesn't make you look like a caring individual. It makes you look deluded.
If you want to be an effective advocate for your position, try to understand non-believers. We already understand you. nono, you don't understand the truth, the truth is as god told me. You have been tricked into believing a version of god's word perverted by the will of satan, who tempted humans with a simpler tongue and a simpler idea into committing sloth, and thus not reading god's words as he intended it, but instead as satan intended it. please correct your heresy and adopt the truth of god's will. What if you got tricked into believing Satan's version? Oh but that can't be, because you're perfect, and you'd never fall for Satan's little games. Or are you? No, I'm not perfect. God is perfect, though, and he spoke to me. I know that it was God and not Satan that spoke to me because the being that spoke to me is perfect, and therefore must have been God. Satan has spoken to me many times, but I have resisted him. Just the other day Satan told me to drop my pants in public, and I resisted his temptation of sin, as I always have. So you think you're perfect because you're 100% sure the being who spoke to you is perfect. You 100% believe that Satan is too weak to fool you into thinking that he's perfect. See I think you're fooling yourself. And perhaps you're schizophrenic.
Sometimes jokes are funny. Somethimes they're too close to reality and fool innocent bystanders.
I think you're one such bystander.
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Maybe. But I've talked to people who think those things in real life. Guess I should read back to see if he's a particularly boring troll.
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On June 09 2012 06:11 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 06:09 Caller wrote:On June 09 2012 06:06 Djzapz wrote:On June 09 2012 06:03 Caller wrote:On June 09 2012 06:00 Omnipresent wrote:
It's always interesting when believers try to explain themselves to non-believers, as though non-believers don't understand them. We get it. No one needs to be told. We hear it every day from teachers, celebrities, and politcians. Most of us started out believing, only to have our faith slowly eroded by knowledge, free thought, and understanding. We understand our own position as non-believers, but also know how believers percieve us and our thoughts. We even understand you and your beliefs. Most attempts to explain yourself are redundant at best and condescending at worst.
Most believers, conversely, appear to have virtually no concept of non-belief. Almost no one is willing or able to argue for belief from a neutral perspective. It's all based on concepts inherent to the belief itself. Explaining how terrifying hell is, and why your belief in it make you want to prosthelytize does nothing to convince us of the reality of your beliefs. It doesn't make you look like a caring individual. It makes you look deluded.
If you want to be an effective advocate for your position, try to understand non-believers. We already understand you. nono, you don't understand the truth, the truth is as god told me. You have been tricked into believing a version of god's word perverted by the will of satan, who tempted humans with a simpler tongue and a simpler idea into committing sloth, and thus not reading god's words as he intended it, but instead as satan intended it. please correct your heresy and adopt the truth of god's will. What if you got tricked into believing Satan's version? Oh but that can't be, because you're perfect, and you'd never fall for Satan's little games. Or are you? No, I'm not perfect. God is perfect, though, and he spoke to me. I know that it was God and not Satan that spoke to me because the being that spoke to me is perfect, and therefore must have been God. Satan has spoken to me many times, but I have resisted him. Just the other day Satan told me to drop my pants in public, and I resisted his temptation of sin, as I always have. So you think you're perfect because you're 100% sure the being who spoke to you is perfect. You 100% believe that Satan is too weak to fool you into thinking that he's perfect. See I think you're fooling yourself. And perhaps you're schizophrenic.
nope, I'm not perfect because I am human, and humans have naturally sinned. But Satan does not hide himself as he does not need to, as he only hides himself from God as God is perfect and Satan is he who fell from grace. But one that is not perfect can recognize that which is perfect. If I score an 80% on my biology test, I can recognize somebody who would score 100%. I can also recognize Aryans from regular humans.(this is going too far)
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On June 09 2012 05:56 Itsmedudeman wrote:
There's a ton of religions and a ton of them have an idea of an afterlife as well as hell. There's more people who think you're going to hell than the number of people who believe in your specific religion. Just pointing this out.
Also lol at "I don't wanna start a religious discussion or anything... but I'm gonna say something about religion addressed at religious and non religious people".
Ya I really should have thought this through more, and done a lot more editing before posting. I was going to jump in and give my two cents and respond to people's questions, but clearly there are better people who are more equipped to answer these types of questions. ClysmiC sent me a PM and in it, he states the things I wish I would have said, and presented them in a much more personable way. Though I really and truly enjoy discussing religion and what other people believe, maybe we should just let this blog die. My purpose and intent was not to start something between people. In my mind when I wrote it, I was hoping that people would read it, and either agree with it or not.
Yet I didn't account for the human spirit. Could I read something that I felt strongly about and not leave a post in reply? No, I would feel compelled to respond regardless of original intent. For that I apologize. In the future I will try to refrain from posting things that will clearly spark conflict. To those of you that posted from both sides, thank you, you have opened up my eyes a little more. So if you guys are feeling like you're making progress with each other, then by all means continue to converse, but let's not let this blog become a warzone for religion until someone shuts it down.
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On June 09 2012 05:58 DomiNater wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 05:53 Caller wrote:
god personally spoke to me and told me that all you catholics, protestants, and other assorted heretics have all perverted his word. he tells me that you guys must repent and that if you do not i must do it as a true believer. since this is the truth, you should join me peacefully, no? or do i have to conduct an inquisition to sort you heretics out?
tldr: my god has a bigger dick than your god Congratulations, you just described Mormonism down to the tee.
Well, that and the whole magic underwear thing.
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EPT
