EPTYeah, OLDSCHOOL SID MEIER BITCH!
Christians: For believers and non-believers alike - Page 4
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Th1rdEye
United States1074 Posts
Yeah, OLDSCHOOL SID MEIER BITCH! | ||
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AusShinDig
Australia22 Posts
No doubt I will get shouted down by christians and atheists alike, but I'm used to it and I like to keep my views to myself generally. I don't bring it up unless others do. I'm not trying to say I'm right and you're wrong and I'm not trying to argue. I just want people to realise that there are a wide range of views and that everyone is entitled to them without personal attacks and criticism. I guess another point I would like to make is that non-christians should try to not bring up a discussion about it because christians are so sick of it (and outspoken christians should shut up too). Just leave us alone to believe what we believe. You don't have to tell us you're right and we're wrong and you don't have to argue. We get criticised so regularly that we will probably just get offended that you're another person trying to tell us that everything we base our life on if plain wrong. We live in free countries and we're free to believe what we want, just like you're free to believe what you want. Having said that, if you get sick of any christians doing the same thing to you, I understand. I avoid doing that at all costs and they really should stop too. I guess what I'm saying is we all just need some civility. We don't want it to get to a point where religion becomes the new racism. | ||
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mordek
United States12704 Posts
On June 09 2012 05:56 Myrkskog wrote: I don't accept the "choice" part. I don't choose to go to hell, God sends me to hell. It doesn't make it any better that I give my child the "choice" to either go the University or be tortured in my basement for the rest of their life. All the "you send yourself to hell" argument does is demonstrate that even if God does exist(which I reject), then he is morally inferior and not worthy of my or anyone elses worship or attention. How do you judge what is morally superior? What would make him worthy of your worship/attention? It's the situation we're in as Christians believe it. You can reject it, I was just trying to explain the view. | ||
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Glurkenspurk
United States1915 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:00 AusShinDig wrote: Well I'm a christian who doesn't believe in hell. If you look at all the original meanings of words before they were incorrectly translated by the catholic church hundreds of years after Jesus died, you realise that hell just means the grave or a 'covered place'. In some cases the original word is also Gehenna, which was the place outside Jerusalem where they burned the city's trash and also the bodies of dead criminals. It's from this burning place that the idea of hell originated. It's also illogical for hell to exist because that would mean that God would have to allow it to exist, despite the fact that it's against every single thing he stands for. People simply die and go back to dust when they die. People say 'but what makes us sin if it's not the Devil?'. Simple, human nature. We have a sin-prone nature that we inherited from Adam after he sinned and that's the reason Jesus died, so we could have our sins forgiven and eventually our sinful nature removed. The words Devil and Satan have also been incorrectly translated. Devil originally meant accuser or false accuser and Satan meant adversary. That's why Jesus said "get behind me satan' to Peter. Obviously Peter wasn't satan but he was against the will of Jesus and therefore an adversary. No doubt I will get shouted down by christians and atheists alike, but I'm used to it and I like to keep my views to myself generally. I don't bring it up unless others do. I'm not trying to say I'm right and you're wrong and I'm not trying to argue. I just want people to realise that there are a wide range of views and that everyone is entitled to them without personal attacks and criticism. I guess another point I would like to make is that non-christians should try to not bring up a discussion about it because christians are so sick of it (and outspoken christians should shut up too). Just leave us alone to believe what we believe. You don't have to tell us you're right and we're wrong and you don't have to argue. We get criticised so regularly that we will probably just get offended that you're another person trying to tell us that everything we base our life on if plain wrong. We live in free countries and we're free to believe what we want, just like you're free to believe what you want. Having said that, if you get sick of any christians doing the same thing to you, I understand. I avoid doing that at all costs and they really should stop too. I guess what I'm saying is we all just need some civility. We don't want it to get to a point where religion becomes the new racism. But if god wouldn't allow hell to exist, why does he allow other horrible things to exist? Why does he allow people to believe hell exists? Why does he allow people to be so ill informed about the various translations of the bible? | ||
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Xiron
Germany1233 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:07 Odal wrote: But if god wouldn't allow hell to exist, why does he allow other horrible things to exist? Why does he allow people to believe hell exists? Why does he allow people to be so ill informed about the various translations of the bible? Dude really? No christian can give you a reasonable answer, because christianity does not have any answers, it just replaces questions with other questions. | ||
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MaGariShun
Austria305 Posts
On June 09 2012 02:23 Fumanchu wrote: The main thing non-believers have to understand about Christians is our understanding of life after death. Without jumping into a giant explanation backed by many different biblical sources, let me underline one important notion: Christians believe in Hell. Yes, there are a great many other things that Christians believe about life after death, and all of our crazy ideas on how to get there, but the main thing non-believers must always remember is that we believe in Hell. Imagine if you believed in a place that existed after death that was filled with an eternity of unimaginable pain. An eternity. Not until all your “bad doings” have been repaid, but forever and ever without hope of reprieve. Now if you truly believe in your heart beyond a shadow of a doubt that such a place existed, wouldn’t you want to find a way to avoid getting sent to that place? And more importantly, once you found a way to escape such unimaginable terror, wouldn’t you want to inform all of your loved ones of this method? I believe that this is at the heart of every Christian, weighing on their souls constantly. However, it seems like fewer and fewer Christians are able to conduct themselves respectfully which leads me to….. I simply don't agree. The existence of Hell as a real place or even a concept is not something every christian believes in. I personally can't fathom why anyone would believe in such a thing given the good, loving and all forgiving nature of the christian god. If your whole faith is based upon the fear of hell, I feel very sorry for you, because IMO you didn't understand what christianity is about at all. Like most completely stupid and contradictory things in christianity (e.g. homophobia - seems very logical to me that you should love even your enemy, but then execute homosexuals) the concept of hell comes mostly from the old testament, which I feel is not exactly compatible with the moral principles of Christ. | ||
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dongmydrum
United States139 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:23 MaGariShun wrote: I simply don't agree. The existence of Hell as a real place or even a concept is not something every christian believes in. I personally can't fathom why anyone would believe in such a thing given the good, loving and all forgiving nature of the christian god. If your whole faith is based upon the fear of hell, I feel very sorry for you, because IMO you didn't understand what christianity is about at all. Like most completely stupid and contradictory things in christianity (e.g. homophobia - seems very logical to me that you should love even your enemy, but then execute homosexuals) the concept of hell comes mostly from the old testament, which I feel is not exactly compatible with the moral principles of Christ. Its "love the people and hate the sins" | ||
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MaGariShun
Austria305 Posts
As long as those people are not the same sex ofc. | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:23 MaGariShun wrote: I simply don't agree. The existence of Hell as a real place or even a concept is not something every christian believes in. I personally can't fathom why anyone would believe in such a thing given the good, loving and all forgiving nature of the christian god. If your whole faith is based upon the fear of hell, I feel very sorry for you, because IMO you didn't understand what christianity is about at all. Like most completely stupid and contradictory things in christianity (e.g. homophobia - seems very logical to me that you should love even your enemy, but then execute homosexuals) the concept of hell comes mostly from the old testament, which I feel is not exactly compatible with the moral principles of Christ. What I dont understand is people like you who try to say they're christians but in the same sentence say they don't believe in christianity. Now I'm no expert on this stuff, but isn't Hell in the bible? And don't christians believe the bible to be the word of god? It would seem to be a requirement of being a christian to believe in hell. If you don't believe in hell, why call yourself a christian? You just believe in 90% of what the book says? Also I did a quick wiki search and Christians derive hell from the New Testament, not the old one. Yep, along with Jesus comes Hell. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell#Christianity | ||
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Xophy
Germany79 Posts
On June 09 2012 05:31 mordek wrote: If nVidia was the perfect company, could it choose to make a faulty video card? I would say yes. I see the analogy, I'm just questioning it. I think the analogy of God being a father is a great one. Just like a father wants a child to grow up to it's best abilities and follow his teachings, God wants us to follow him so that we can join him in heaven. I think God has more control over what he creates than what happens when I have a child. He can choose to make a creation that has the option to be imperfect. Granted there's no way we'd every manage to never "sin" but we always have a choice when we do. Regardless, I think that's where the analogy breaks down. They're good but you can only take thems o far sometimes. Can god create a rock he can't lift up? He should be, except he is able to lift everything he wants! Just a little hint to enhanced set theory ... If god is willing to let us get send to hell (by whom so ever), isn't that a sign that he isn't perfect? You could argue that he wants us to have free will - which is a point you guys LOVE to use - but why is that? Is there any point to free will itself? Noone said so beforehand, so if god thinks free will is necessary for perfection, he should make sure there are no negative consequences for his so-loved worshippers (or any other of his creations), at least if he really cares about them. In other words: There's actually no reason to try to discuss religion, as you can't reasonably discuss anything that refuses the simplest laws of logic! | ||
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Chocolate
United States2350 Posts
The idea that humans derive sinful nature from Adam is intriguing. You say that there is no active devil ( like an anti-god), but is that not contradictory with Genesis? The way I see it, Adam either was tempted by the devil himself, as an entity, or tempted himself into sin. Now you disagree with the first one, but if God had originally made Adam perfect then he would not have been tempted in the first place, right? Idk, I guess Ido not really understand your opinion. Now this is all assuming that Adam was a real person to begin with, which I think is wrong because humans have evolved. Also, genesis was written around 600 BC I think, several thousand years after genesis could have occurred. I would like to apologize to everyone for being a dick earlier in the thread, I will try to be more understanding now. I go to a Catholic school so I am very familiar with Catholicism but I am aldo an atheist. I am on my phone so errors abound  | ||
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Recognizable
Netherlands1552 Posts
The main thing non-believers have to understand about Christians is our understanding of life after death. Without jumping into a giant explanation backed by many different biblical sources, let me underline one important notion: Christians believe in Hell. Yes, there are a great many other things that Christians believe about life after death, and all of our crazy ideas on how to get there, but the main thing non-believers must always remember is that we believe in Hell. Imagine if you believed in a place that existed after death that was filled with an eternity of unimaginable pain. An eternity. Not until all your “bad doings” have been repaid, but forever and ever without hope of reprieve. Now if you truly believe in your heart beyond a shadow of a doubt that such a place existed, wouldn’t you want to find a way to avoid getting sent to that place? And more importantly, once you found a way to escape such unimaginable terror, wouldn’t you want to inform all of your loved ones of this method? I believe that this is at the heart of every Christian, weighing on their souls constantly. However, it seems like fewer and fewer Christians are able to conduct themselves respectfully which leads me to….. I feel sorry for Christians and all other people who strongly believe in any kind of deity. | ||
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AusShinDig
Australia22 Posts
On June 09 2012 13:43 Chocolate wrote: @Ausshindig The idea that humans derive sinful nature from Adam is intriguing. You say that there is no active devil ( like an anti-god), but is that not contradictory with Genesis? The way I see it, Adam either was tempted by the devil himself, as an entity, or tempted himself into sin. Now you disagree with the first one, but if God had originally made Adam perfect then he would not have been tempted in the first place, right? Idk, I guess Ido not really understand your opinion. Now this is all assuming that Adam was a real person to begin with, which I think is wrong because humans have evolved. Also, genesis was written around 600 BC I think, several thousand years after genesis could have occurred. I would like to apologize to everyone for being a dick earlier in the thread, I will try to be more understanding now. I go to a Catholic school so I am very familiar with Catholicism but I am aldo an atheist. I am on my phone so errors abound Well the bible says that man is drawn away of his own lusts. I believe that the serpent was not satan or the devil, but God placed him in the garden to test Adam and Eve. God created man, but until man made a choice (to obey or disobey God's commandments to not eat of the fruit), he was essentially a 'robot'. God created man but he couldn't have man just follow his will, he wanted man to be a free-thinking being that would *choose* to follow his commandments, rather than be forced too. So he tempted Adam to have Adam make a choice. Adam knew what God had told him but he chose to eat of the fruit anyway and therefore sin entered the world. God then provided Jesus as a sacrifice that we may willingly follow him and be saved from our sinful nature. It basically comes down to the fact that God created us to love him but we had to do it of our own free will, not because he forced us to. Because we are now inclined to sin through inheriting Adam's sinful nature, he provided a way that we might be saved through Jesus who did no sin (he didn't sin and is therefore unworthy of death. I don't believe he originally made Adam perfect, but neither did he make Adam sinful. Rather, Adam was in an 'undecided' state until he made a choice one way or the other and that's why God used the serpent as a test to see what he would choose. I also reject that Jesus and God are the same being, rather that God has always existed and he created Jesus as his son through Mary that if he led an obendient life, did not sin and died willingly, would therefore be an acceptable sacrifice that we may have our sins forgiven through belief in him. | ||
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Thrill
2599 Posts
On June 09 2012 02:23 Fumanchu wrote: we believe in Hell. Imagine if you believed in a place that existed after death that was filled with an eternity of unimaginable pain. An eternity. Not until all your “bad doings” have been repaid, but forever and ever without hope of reprieve. Now if you truly believe in your heart beyond a shadow of a doubt that such a place existed, wouldn’t you want to find a way to avoid getting sent to that place? That's funny, all christians i've ever spoken to have been ashamed by this aspect of their religion and shunned it as archaic and belittling. | ||
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Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:15 Xiron wrote: Dude really? No christian can give you a reasonable answer, because christianity does not have any answers, it just replaces questions with other questions. Your idea comes from the fallacious conception that the christian god is supposed to behave in a classical "good" way. However, according to christians, life is merely a trial for the afterlife, which is what matters. | ||
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MaGariShun
Austria305 Posts
On June 09 2012 11:08 Roe wrote: What I dont understand is people like you who try to say they're christians but in the same sentence say they don't believe in christianity. Now I'm no expert on this stuff, but isn't Hell in the bible? And don't christians believe the bible to be the word of god? It would seem to be a requirement of being a christian to believe in hell. If you don't believe in hell, why call yourself a christian? You just believe in 90% of what the book says? Also I did a quick wiki search and Christians derive hell from the New Testament, not the old one. Yep, along with Jesus comes Hell. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell#Christianity I never said I'm a believing christian. I have been raised as a catholic and both my parents are quite religious and have a lot of literature on theological topics, so I know a thing or two. I do not believe in god at all, in fact, i'm against religion in the form the catholic church practices it. That being said, the Bible is generally NOT believed to be the word of god. It is often called that, but that expression does not mean, that every exact word in there has been injected by god into the minds of the writers or even written by himself. It's not like the Quran in that sense, which is seen as the exact words of god, given to muhammad through gabriel. The Bible heralds (english not my native language, so I don't know the exact terminology) the message of god, but it is not that exact message. It is believed to be Inspired by god, so god guided the writers himself, but he did not "dictate" the words. Jesus himself is the manifestation of the word of god, the new testament just tells his story. Everything in the paragraph before is still open for debate, there are a lot of different positions on this within christianity (in both extremes), but still, believing the Bible is the exact words or god is not exactly required to be christian. Regardless of whether you see the Bible as exact word of god or not, most of the stuff is still subject to interpretation anyways. You can think of hell as a physical place with fire where you burn for eternity, but you could also see it as the symbolic description of the state your soul will be in if you don't ask for forgiveness for your sins, being tortured by your own regrets. I could go on and on, but basically christianity is not as simple and easy to dismiss as some people believe. A lot of christians I feel don't know jack shit about their religion and just take everything in the bible literally. This biblicism (taking the bible literally) seems to be applied (from my personal observations) mostly in america. I have been raised in a very christian environment in northern italy and I don't know anyone, including our priests, who would interpret the bible literally. I am no theologist or expert on christianity, so I don't claim to know the absolute truth. What I wrote here is what I understood from years of catholic education, going to church and critically speaking with believing christians. | ||
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bre1010
71 Posts
On June 09 2012 21:14 Kukaracha wrote: Your idea comes from the fallacious conception that the christian god is supposed to behave in a classical "good" way. However, according to christians, life is merely a trial for the afterlife, which is what matters. What I don't understand is that if people actually believe this, why aren't Christians nicer to people and why do they have so much money? | ||
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Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
On June 10 2012 00:13 bre1010 wrote: What I don't understand is that if people actually believe this, why aren't Christians nicer to people and why do they have so much money? Because in the end, they're not very different from anyone else and live most of their lives in autopilot, like us. You'll find that most christians who strictfully respect Jesus' message of love do it out of habit, with their family or friends, rarely alone. From a christian perspective, I guess that you could also say that it all relies on forgiveness, in which case it's equally important to realize you've done wrong and feel genuinely sorry for it. | ||
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ymir233
United States8275 Posts
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PassiveAce
United States18076 Posts
I have met very few Christians in my life who are willing/able to accept the existence of hell as truth. To me, that concept is utter baloney. I think that any institution (religious or otherwise) that says "Do/believe this or suffer" is just trying to control people for whatever reason. | ||
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