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On January 16 2012 20:59 KawaiiRice wrote:
I read this as the thoughts of a foreign pro which seemed incredibly accurate (because read the title... "The foreign progamers perspective on esports"), yet people are reading it like TT1 is whining/begging for sympathy/wanting to get more money... wtf ~~
love u payam
The thing is, it's not accurate - it's not that the koreans are that much money away from foreigners - these foreign teams are not paying foreigners money because they are simply not good enough. If the koreans were not in foreign teams, then these foreigners won't be getting any money anyways. Regardless, many koreans (e.g. Golden + Dragon) have a blinkered imagination of the foreign riches - they will soon be in for a reality check because they are no-name koreans.
As for treatment of foreigners in korea, BW is in the past - it's SC2 now and GOM has been treating foreigners very well - providing a house and 2 Code S and many Code A seeds.
TT1's post is just whiny and begging.
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On January 16 2012 20:59 KawaiiRice wrote:
I read this as the thoughts of a foreign pro which seemed incredibly accurate (because read the title... "The foreign progamers perspective on esports"), yet people are reading it like TT1 is whining/begging for sympathy/wanting to get more money... wtf ~~
love u payam
When ur objective, he IS whining.
"They" have better infrastructure. (didnt we know that be4?)
"They" take money which should be spent on "OUR" players.
...
Its pathetic that a professional athlete is writing such horrible things. How can he not know that in professional sports skill and results are the deciding factors. Nobody cares where the athlete is from, when he is winning. And fact is: most of the "foreigners" are not winning. And this is not mainly due to the "infrastructure". Dont get me wrong, but most of the "foreigners" would still not win anything even when they hat the exact same infrastructure right in their neigborhood.
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On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote:
now to get to the main issue, I'm all for the globalization of esports and as an sc1 player ive always looked up to the korean players and dreamt of being able to play competitively in korea someday but ill be honest.. ive always wondered why foreign players were never offered the same type of treatment in sc1 that the koreans are currently being offered in sc2, good on them if all the teams and the fans are welcoming them with open arms but afaik when ret tried to become a progamer they chased him out of korea and never gave him an opportunity to do so, they excluded us from everything because we were of no use to them
now to be fair i don't know if the reason why we were ostracized so much from their scene had something to do with kespa, the teams/players or if it had to do with something else but in any case thats not what im here to talk about, what i wanted to voice were a few issues from the players perspesctive
Well the first big question you throw in, namely why are Koreans in sc2 welcomed by the foreign community but foreigners in broodwar had it tough in Korea - simple, Koreans in sc2 are great, foreigners in broodwar sucked, comparative to the scenes that they were joining. That's so obvious I don't know why its even in the OP.
As for the second, I can see your point and yes that sucks for foreigners, but the reason the teams/players in Korea are so good is because of the huge sacrifices they have made since day 1. And that's true not just for bw but also sc2. I'm sure heaps of the players last year were making next to nothing. It's their willingness to put up with that punishment and make something of it that is special. They haven't had to sacrifice any less than foreigners have to now (minus potentially moving country :p).
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well I'm saying if you read it from just his perspective (which the title basically tells you)
Obviously if you think about it in the overall scheme of SC2 it's incredibly whiny and stuff as everyone has pointed out but TT1 is giving his point of view as a pro... which to be honest I'm not sure why he posted it here but payam likes sharing his views with TL ... and I think it's backfired every single time lolol
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On January 16 2012 21:32 KawaiiRice wrote:
well I'm saying if you read it from just his perspective (which the title basically tells you)
Obviously if you think about it in the overall scheme of SC2 it's incredibly whiny and stuff as everyone has pointed out but TT1 is giving his point of view as a pro... which to be honest I'm not sure why he posted it here but payam likes sharing his views with TL ... and I think it's backfired every single time lolol
Well but I think that is completely okay, isn't it? If you get your opinion out there, there will be people shitting on it, disagreeing etc etc
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but there are western pro houses. the "root" house, which i think tt1 was invited to be a part of, the eg house etc. and yet korean b teamers are still popping up in team league or online cups and stomping nerds, everyone who has played in a western training house who wasnt already amazing hasnt shown that same kind of results.
work smart not hard, just because a korean does 8 hours a day aswell doesnt mean you are even approaching the practice in the same way.
im not disagreeing with tt1 that killing the western scene would be horrible, any pro of the future will be fucked and we will never see them, thats a bad thing. but i do disagree that just because he puts in 8 hours that means he deserves anything
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On January 16 2012 21:32 KawaiiRice wrote:
well I'm saying if you read it from just his perspective (which the title basically tells you)
Obviously if you think about it in the overall scheme of SC2 it's incredibly whiny and stuff as everyone has pointed out but TT1 is giving his point of view as a pro... which to be honest I'm not sure why he posted it here but payam likes sharing his views with TL ... and I think it's backfired every single time lolol
Some of the stuff in the OP is just bad regardless of how you think about it. Questioning why koreans didn't involve foreigners in BW for example. TT1 really should know why that is, it's not rocket science.
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Hah, the reason that Koreans are much better than you, TT1, and most other foreign players is not because they have better houses to train in (although that is a part), it's because they are much more dedicated. It's because for the most part, they breathe Starcraft II. There are very few foreigners that have been able to show the dedication of koreans (Idra, Huk, Naniwa, mainly). Those guys and Koreans sit down in a chair for 10 straight hours and get up under 5 times. They do not touch their internet browser, they stare at Starcraft II all day and play it, study it, or think about it. Idra said in an interview once that in SC:BW when he was living in the Entus house that they played for 12 hours a day, six days a week, with a one hour break. As soon as you can say you've done something even close to that dedicated for a decent amount of time and haven't seen results (even though your play has improved to reflect it), you, and no other foreign player, can whine about the world's imbalance.
The reason the treatment of korean players is so much better is because Korean players are so much better. No one cares about the shittier athletes in any sport, this includes video games. Just because you're not Korean doesn't mean we're going to treat you better than the Koreans. We're not going to segregate them from us because they're better than almost all of the foreigners.
"Not until you want to succeed as badly as you want to breathe, will you ever succeed." - Eric Thomas.
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On January 16 2012 19:47 padapuffis wrote:
every man for himself. im attracted to talent thtats why i enjoy to watch koreans play because they are more skilled. i dont have that many symphaties for average foreigners, because they are pretty bad. i mb would cheer for some if they had any personality but most of them are just socially akward. Most progamers became progamers because they are lazy and suck at society. i think what makes korean champs is 80 % the right attitude and discpline etc. Most of the pros dont realise that its their job, i can guarantue you that not in any single job in the world , there will be this phenomen where you call out the more skilled and cry about how they make more money. Progamers need to grow up..
You missed the entire point of the whole OP.
Korean players are so good because the infrastructure to GET that good has been laid down in a solid manner, where as us foreigners have no systematic approach to the games, thus not operating in optimal conditions.
Calling foreigners bad while ignoring the above point makes you ignorant and stupid. If you earn 200 euro a month with a 80 hour/week job you'd be unable to keep improving aswell. IF you need to join a top tier practice house in Korea to even remotely hope to get a chance, as the foreign scene does not support that, then that's a fundamental flaw in the system used. A lot of the pro's from EU/NA can beat and will beat Koreans when we subject these players to similar conditions as the Koreans are practicing under.
Don't be stupid and ignorant, think before you post.
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Just because you put in 8 hours a day doesn't make you entitled to sponsorship money. It's a cutthroat industry and you need talent to make it far.
Of course being born in Korea offers advantages, but talent and hard work are the only two things you need to achieve a "breakout" performance that would land you a sponsored ticket and accommodation in Korea.
Even in sports, you see people go from playing football barefoot on the street to getting recruited into top clubs. It's even easier in Starcraft, where everyone is connected through the internet. Whats to stop you from playing on Kr server yourself?
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On January 16 2012 21:32 KawaiiRice wrote:
well I'm saying if you read it from just his perspective (which the title basically tells you)
Obviously if you think about it in the overall scheme of SC2 it's incredibly whiny and stuff as everyone has pointed out but TT1 is giving his point of view as a pro... which to be honest I'm not sure why he posted it here but payam likes sharing his views with TL ... and I think it's backfired every single time lolol
hehe, ok.
when we then just analyze his personal view we can summarize it like:
im scared, the koreans come, and they r all better, because they have team houses.
although they are better, i still wanna make money with sc2: but i dont want to improve/change my way of living. we need an alliance that protects all of us, and our lifestyles.
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I don't understand what you are upset about TT1. Your blog is not very clear. The koreans chase foreigners out of korea? You don't provide much evidence for this claim. The infrastructure outside of korea is not very good? Korea has a long history of competitive esports, it only makes sense that they are ahead. Will this lead to more koreans and less foreigners in tournaments? I agree it probably will. Teams like FXO, EG, and Liquid are making major headway in both creating good infrastructure in the US and facilitating good relations between foreign teams and korean teams, at least as I understand it. What more would you like to see done? And who, if anybody, is being wronged at the moment? You say there is a lot of concerns progammers have that they are not voicing. What are these concerns? I didn't read anything in your blog that I didn't already know, nor did you suggest a solution.
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Well, the only solution I could see to fix what TT1's "problem" essentially is that foreigners are isolated so that the koreans can't take "their" money. But then HOW DOES THIS FIX ANYTHING? You wanna isolate yourselves? Ok, then you fall even farther behind from the koreans who just have better everything. Better player pool, better discipline, etc. The only way this works out for foreigners to catch up is if they're able to flood the scene with so many players that eventually a few of them happen to be really talented.
However, you're missing one key point. Koreans = money. Look at MLG before and after koreans. The difference in revenue is huge. The koreans make the foreign scene money, and foreigners make the korean scene money.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
The OP of this thread is an idiot for attempting to write this piece of garbage. He also seems to have a warped sense of reality.
Move along...
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On January 16 2012 21:51 mothergoose729 wrote:
I don't understand what you are upset about TT1. Your blog is not very clear. The koreans chase foreigners out of korea? You don't provide much evidence for this claim. The infrastructure outside of korea is not very good? Korea has a long history of competitive esports, it only makes sense that they are ahead. Will this lead to more koreans and less foreigners in tournaments? I agree it probably will. Teams like FXO, EG, and Liquid are making major headway in both creating good infrastructure in the US and facilitating good relations between foreign teams and korean teams, at least as I understand it. What more would you like to see done? And who, if anybody, is being wronged at the moment? You say there is a lot of concerns progammers have that they are not voicing. What are these concerns? I didn't read anything in your blog that I didn't already know, nor did you suggest a solution.
"Evidence for this claim?" I guess you didn't follow the Broodwar scene that much.
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I find alot of responses in this thread odd because I understand what TT1 is saying.
Koreans use all their power to support themselves and their infrastructure in esports. As they should.
However, If we as foreigners are also using everything we have to support the Koreans, who already have an established esports infrastructure to support themselves, then we will be left with nothing and no scene of our own. No viable methods to catch up to the Koreans in terms of training as we have allowed them to assimilate all our own opportunities to build up and one day compete on an even level as a group rather then the select few chosen ones that go to Korea but still can't even do shit in Code S, or A for that matter, because we are nothing compared to them.
If we invest in Koreans rather then ourselves then we won't ever be able to compete. They are getting all the opportunities and money. If you don't care about foreigners building up infrastructure and gaining the ability to compete then that's perfectly fine to bash this point of view. However if you do care about foreigners ability to compete and still don't like this point of view then your thinking is flawed.
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A few people have pointed out that having Koreans move into foreign teams improves the general level of play. That seems like a good trend. Ultimately the only way foreign players/team are going to get better is through more interaction with Koreans. It's symbiosis not competition. And if esports keeps growing and money keeps flowing in then eventually it won't be necessary as the infrastructure will develop.
And as others have pointed out, it's probably a false assumption that money paid to recruit Korean players would otherwise have gone to foreign players.
On January 16 2012 21:58 KicKDoG wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 21:51 mothergoose729 wrote:
I don't understand what you are upset about TT1. Your blog is not very clear. The koreans chase foreigners out of korea? You don't provide much evidence for this claim. The infrastructure outside of korea is not very good? Korea has a long history of competitive esports, it only makes sense that they are ahead. Will this lead to more koreans and less foreigners in tournaments? I agree it probably will. Teams like FXO, EG, and Liquid are making major headway in both creating good infrastructure in the US and facilitating good relations between foreign teams and korean teams, at least as I understand it. What more would you like to see done? And who, if anybody, is being wronged at the moment? You say there is a lot of concerns progammers have that they are not voicing. What are these concerns? I didn't read anything in your blog that I didn't already know, nor did you suggest a solution. "Evidence for this claim?" I guess you didn't follow the Broodwar scene that much.
He probably didn't, but as the OP is basing that solely on Ret's experience and his side of the story, yeah, there isn't a lot of evidence.
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On January 16 2012 22:02 Epoch wrote:
I find alot of responses in this thread odd because I understand what TT1 is saying.
Koreans use all their power to support themselves and their infrastructure in esports. As they should.
However, If we as foreigners are also using everything we have to support the Koreans, who already have an established esports infrastructure to support themselves, then we will be left with nothing and no scene of our own. No viable methods to catch up to the Koreans in terms of training as we have allowed them to assimilate all our own opportunities to build up and one day compete on an even level as a group rather then the select few chosen ones that go to Korea but still can't even do shit in Code S because we are nothing compared to them.
If we invest in Koreans rather then ourselves then we won't ever be able to compete. They are getting all the opportunities and money. If you don't care about foreigners building up infrastructure and gaining the ability to compete then that's perfectly fine to bash this point of view. However if you do care about foreigners ability to compete and still don't like this point of view then your thinking is flawed.
The OP doesn't provide any examples of how to solve the issue though. It's only complains about how hard it is for EU/US players while totally disregarding the korean point of view.
If foreigners are going to become as good they need to poach korean coaches and start team houses in EU/US, which probably won't happen as koreans are doing fine at home, don't know enough english, and foreigners are spread all over the place. Add to that the fact that foreign teams have, at best, 2-3 really good players each means that there's 5-6 teams that would need korean coaches and team houses.
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On January 16 2012 20:23 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 20:16 Wombat_NI wrote:It's not JUST hard work that makes Koreans stronger players on average. Despite the regular pounding he gets on here Naniwa is renowned for having a monstrous work ethic. Remember when he first became a monster and destroyed an MLG with some ridiculous sets score like 24-2 or something? The guy was so far ahead of most of the foreign scene based on hard work and some latent talent, but in the end he started stagnating and acknowledged that he had to move to Korea to achieve his personal dream of being the best player in the world. Incidentally, I don't know what the majority of TL users even want in their players anyway. Naniwa, even before 'probegate' seemed to attract his fair share of haters, but he's one of the few foreigners who seem to reach the 'standards of practice' that we demand of our pro players. People are saying that Koreans sacrifice a ton to move into pro-houses with the only mitigating factor being that they get to stay in their home country. This is a huge, huge difference compared to what a foreigner sacrifices to move to Korea. I would be perfectly happy to sacrifice a year or two to pursue something like playing professionally if it was within my own culture/within reach of family if things go wrong. I could even envisage (if I was good which I'm not  ) moving to the European mainland at a stretch. On another point I recall Artosis and others talking about a global beta server when it first came out, and how it had latency reduction and was very playable. Why couldn't Blizzard try and do this by opening a cross-server 'pro's only' server with some kind of fee to be paid for it to make it worth their while. As it is top pros are making out that laddering on US and EU is becoming redundant, so looking for ways for the foreign scene to improve without upping sticks and all moving to Seoul should be done. I guarantee you that if the best possible place to be for sc2 was NA/EU, 90% of the korean progamers would be willing to pick up and move to pursue their dreams. Also TT1, I'm not saying you're bad, but you're not A level foreigner. There's no reason to complain about your training environment when you have plenty of room to improve yourself in the foreign scene. And NA > KR latency isn't so bad that you can't practice on their servers. If you wanna QQ that you can't talk about strategies with koreans, then how is that in any way shape or form the fault of other teams picking up koreans?
They'd just make it =/
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On January 16 2012 21:18 Candide wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 20:59 KawaiiRice wrote:
I read this as the thoughts of a foreign pro which seemed incredibly accurate (because read the title... "The foreign progamers perspective on esports"), yet people are reading it like TT1 is whining/begging for sympathy/wanting to get more money... wtf ~~
love u payam Sure it is accurate but he is only stating the obvious and asking for the unattainable... to me anyways. He argues that Koreans do not sacrifice nearly as much as europeans or NA because they live in korea. Do you realize how large South Korea is? it isn't some small city where someone can take a bus ride home for a weekend, its significantly larger and a lot of the players give up social/academic lives to pursue what they want. One in a million(Polt) can attend a prestigious university and still play sc2, players like nada as well but we are talking very few numbers. A lot of people are really harsh on their criticisms but are technically right. You need to make larger sacrifices to overcome such barriers. At this point in your life if you don't think you can dedicate the time to be the best then so be it. The bar only goes up from here, never down.
Korea isn't that big. I can go from Seoul to Busan in 2 hours on a train. It really is that easy. But you won't see Koreans doing that because they understand how much they have to work. The entire work ethic of Koreans vs other foreigners in NA/EU is completely different. While working at Samsung, they told us a joke, if I was working in the States, my hours would be 9 to 5, but in Korea, my hours are from 5 to 9.
I can understand how logistically it's very hard to have the same system, but that's where the foreigners have to adapt. Whining about it and letting the gap get bigger isn't going to help. I'm not a big fan of EG, but they're taking IMO is the right steps to competing with Koreans.
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EPT
