Seeing these x-korean leaves x- team in search of a foreign team announcements are starting to become customary these days, i feel like as a foreign player alot of our interests aren't being heard because typically foreign progamers don't voice their issues as much as they should, we just keep the talk between ourselves which doesn't accomplish anything and tbh i feel like sooner or later were going to need an organisation that can represent our interests just so we can legitimize the industry because as it is alot of us are getting fed the shit-end of the stick
now to get to the main issue, I'm all for the globalization of esports and as an sc1 player ive always looked up to the korean players and dreamt of being able to play competitively in korea someday but ill be honest.. ive always wondered why foreign players were never offered the same type of treatment in sc1 that the koreans are currently being offered in sc2, good on them if all the teams and the fans are welcoming them with open arms but afaik when ret tried to become a progamer they chased him out of korea and never gave him an opportunity to do so, they excluded us from everything because we were of no use to them
now to be fair i don't know if the reason why we were ostracized so much from their scene had something to do with kespa, the teams/players or if it had to do with something else but in any case thats not what im here to talk about, what i wanted to voice were a few issues from the players perspesctive
I know as fans u probably wont care much about this because u just want to see high class players representing ur favourite teams(regardless of where they come from) but this is an extremely sensitive issue to the players. Any potential $$ that is going to a korean player is potential money that isn't going to our players, a HUGE portion of the players are being underpaid, the amount of money vs the amount of time we have to put into the game in order to stay competitive is let's say..... very shitty? On top of that we can't get the same type of training that the koreans are getting because our infrastructure fucking blows, now all of a sudden the korean players are saying to themselves "hmmm, not only can we rape all their tournaments but we can probably take over all their teams aswell", whats going to happen to us 5-10 years down the line?
For alot of foreign players its extremely hard to drop everything in our lives just so that we can move to korea in order to keep up with them practice-wise. Why cant we have the same type of training that they have without having to sacrifice a huge portion of our lives? The only foreigner players who wont fall behind the koreans skill wise are the ones who will be willing to sacrifice a huge part of their lives so they can practice over there and alot of those players are either a) young or b) are already financially set, that type of sacrifice wont impact them as much as say a top european or north american foreign player whos in his early-midd twenties and isnt getting paid/isnt willing to sacrifice his life as much as those players which makes that type of sacrifice an extremely high risk thing to do
if things dont change then 3 years from now the high level european/na players are going to live off of their team salarys/stream while playing the occasional online tournament and the skillgap between them and the koreans is going to grow so much that they'll end up being a non factor in tournaments, that being said ull still have the odd 4-5 well paid foreigners practicing in korea who are going to give them a run for their money at each tournament(however theyll fail 95% of the time simply because theyre outnumbered), if ur satisfied with that then im happy for u but unfortunately alot of talented players will never achieve their true potential and we'll never get to know what type of player they would have turned into which to me would be the greatest tragedy in esports
every man for himself. im attracted to talent thtats why i enjoy to watch koreans play because they are more skilled. i dont have that many symphaties for average foreigners, because they are pretty bad. i mb would cheer for some if they had any personality but most of them are just socially akward. Most progamers became progamers because they are lazy and suck at society. i think what makes korean champs is 80 % the right attitude and discpline etc. Most of the pros dont realise that its their job, i can guarantue you that not in any single job in the world , there will be this phenomen where you call out the more skilled and cry about how they make more money. Progamers need to grow up..
well get organized and get your shit together foreigners. the koreans put more work in so they recieve more pay and thats a good thing. how many foreigners are so dedicated to life in a team house were you bunk with 10 people and train the whole day? and they sacrifie huge part of their private lifes by living is these conditions....
teams are gonna sign players that they think are the best and not according to their nationality i don't really see a problem, koreans do sacrifice their lives as well, living in team houses, the only upside for them is that they don't have to leave the country, so far in sc2 korea has welcomed foreigners and allow them to live in their practice houses. if foreigners don't practice as hard as koreans it's not fault of koreans.
It's your fucking job to be a pro-gamer and you are bitching that you need to drop a big portion or your life in order to compete... clearly you aren't driven enough then bro. Look at HuK, maybe you can learn something about dedication.
so what u want to say is: give NA/EU players more money despite they play worse than koreans. rofl. Like a korean progamer doesnt "sacrifice" his life.. ,your argumentation is just silly. Korea is the mekka of esports, Tasteless says is EVERY day. Didnt u listen?
when u wanna be good at table tennis, u need to go to china, when u wanna be good in ski-junping, u need to come to EU. As simple as that. Awkward, how ppl become racist when they see their money in danger.
After reading this and the "golden and dragon leave slayers"-thread, I wonder if esports will actually ever become big. - Very few players make a good amount of money. The reason why salaries are not public, is because they are low. - The interest in gaming is not as high as we might think. - Organisations like NASL, MLG and GOMtv seem to have a very hard time. - Starcraft 2 is not that popular in Korea.
Basicly we see players playing 10 hours a day for.... almost nothing?
Do you guys think that players will make a good amount of money from esports in the future? Do you think things will change? Because I can't imagine it atm.
The infrastructure won't magically appear in EU/NA, to do so we need to "hire" proffesionals overseas for now. Its also a cultural problem, i wouldnt call going full pro as droping everything in your life, its really comparable to having a full time job / having an sports career, when people start treating it like that outside of korea and infrastructure will appear there will be no need to go to Korea, but Alas we are years behind Korea in that regard and i doubt we will ever catch up with todays mentality, but SC2 so far helps in this regard, as the skill gap is not as evident as it was in bw.
The problem with infrastructure, hmm, we lack professionals on our side, there are no coaches who could coach players like they do in bw teams, there is no governing body, Kespa despite all the bad reputation it has pushed SC business beyond "hobby", or how its called in our culture "stupid hobby" boundry. Kespa seems aggresive for us, but in fact they are dealing with higher caliber competition, you cant have lack of professionalism when you appear on TV or talk to major Korean brand sponors (Banks, manufacturers, ship building companies).
On January 16 2012 19:54 Seraphone wrote: Koreans work harder, play better therefore deserve more money. Why should you be paid less for doing a worse job?
if i practice 8 hours a day on na and a korean practices 8 hours a day in a team house + on the korea ladder, whos gonna benifit more from their training? the answer is pretty obvious, both players put in the same amount of time but one is gonna benifit MUCH more than the other, the problem lies within the western esports scene as a whole and not with the player
i actually touched on this point in my initial post.. the only way to stay competitive would be to move to korea but there are certain contrainsts that make that sort of a commitment too much of a high risk thing to do
koreans could be complaining that they suck in skiing compared to austria
in your and my example its just a better infrastructure and better training that leads to better "athletes"
thats just the way it is
i always root for foreigners cause i dont want the koreans to dominate. but its noones fault that the koreans dominate. they are just training more and better.
I hope I understand you right, you're right now blaming teams / tournaments for signing / inviting koreans? And your point is that instead of growing / establishing a good infrastructure for foreigners with the currently available money, they take the easy way and "outsource" to Koreans because they're already set-up and are further developed, thus more successful, so you're scared for the long-term development of the foreign scene if we don't take the chance we've now?
On January 16 2012 19:54 Seraphone wrote: Koreans work harder, play better therefore deserve more money. Why should you be paid less for doing a worse job?
if i practice 8 hours a day on na and a korean practices 8 hours a day in a team house + on the korea ladder, whos gonna benifit more from their training? the answer is pretty obvious, both players put in the same amount of time but one is gonna benifit MUCH more than the other, the problem lies within the western esports scene as a whole and not with the player
Yea man,but like,we can't fix that for you guys. We as fans can only watch and support the players we like,but we can't set up a infrastructure for you. So I don't really see where you are going with this thread,we all know this and we can't help you.
I think pro's need to realise that this is an entertainment industry. Life isn't fair. I'm sure you are correct that the infrastructure in Korea allows better practice conditions, but thats just the way of it. Compensating foreign players for this 'injustice' won't fix the problem. Maintaining a foreign only competition is surely possible, but only if thats what appeals to the fans.
edit2: I don't mean to be so brutally insensitive. I get that your dream is to compete with the best, and you feel shortchanged that their is some perceived or real uneveness in the playing field. That sucks, but its life. Maybe when you work extra hard to get to the top tier then your success will be all the more satisfying given the hurdles. But blaming the teams for not taking some paternal steps to artificially smooth out the uneven playing field is unjustified.
edit: The above point only refers to the Korean server compared to NA/EU. It doesn't apply to teamhouses imo. You're an adult right? You pay rent? You're friends with other progamers who also pay rent? Why don't you all pay rent in the same house and have your computers in the lounge. Whats the trouble?
I just want to say, the amount of dedication and professionalism from the majority of Korean players trumps that of the majority of Western players. Not to mention, from a marketing standpoint, Korean professional gamers offer a lot more in terms of Starcraft because of the stigma in all our heads that Koreans are the gosu's and Westerners are the chobo's.
When I go to a major tournament, who do I see practising every moment between games? Korean players. Are there some foreigners who also do this? Sure, of course, Strelok for one does this as well. What do I see when the tournament is done for the day? For the majority of Western players (oddly enough the ones not doing well) they go out drinking and partying. Meanwhile, the Westerners who are doing well (IdrA, HuK, etc.) are in their rooms early, sleeping. As are the Koreans - or if you are a SlayerS member like MMA and BoxeR, you stay up to 2am practising some more.
Additionally, Korean professional gamers give up a lot as well, just as much as IdrA and HuK in some cases. IdrA and HuK gave up their family and friends to move abroad to follow their dreams of becoming professional gamers - is that not what viOlet and Artist are doing (or like Rain did?)? They gave up their families and friends to move to the USA in order to pursue their career as pro-gamers.
Not to mention the time the Koreans (and now people like IdrA and HuK) put in at those pro-gaming houses, is massive compared to the time the vast majority of Westerners put into the game.
I will agree that there needs to be a governing body with the PLAYERS best interests at heart, but segregating it based on ethnicity would just defeat the purpose.
I feel that if players, from any part of the world, wish to become a professional gamer and have this as their #1 source of income and livelihood, should learn that this industry, despite its recent boom, is still incredibly small. And only a select few are going to make money at this and be able to sustain themselves. If you want to be one of those lucky few - you are going to have to learn how to make those sacrifices, and become smarter not only as a player and become better, but also as an individual and learn how to market yourself so you are more valuable to a team.
koreans are joining foreign teams more and more, it means they're willing to practice with foreigners, it's a good thing, just get the infrastructures up and running in the western community and u're set, u've got the players willing to come over
On January 16 2012 19:54 Seraphone wrote: Koreans work harder, play better therefore deserve more money. Why should you be paid less for doing a worse job?
if i practice 8 hours a day on na and a korean practices 8 hours a day in a team house + on the korea ladder, whos gonna benifit more from their training? the answer is pretty obvious, both players put in the same amount of time but one is gonna benifit MUCH more than the other, the problem lies within the western esports scene as a whole and not with the player
So if a bunch of foreigners got organised and moved into a 10 man team house somewhere in North America with a good internet connection to Korea you get something approaching what Koreans have.
Everyone has to make sacrifices for their career. I ate microwave noodles for three years and lived in shitholes when I was in University.
On January 16 2012 19:54 Seraphone wrote: Koreans work harder, play better therefore deserve more money. Why should you be paid less for doing a worse job?
if i practice 8 hours a day on na and a korean practices 8 hours a day in a team house + on the korea ladder, whos gonna benifit more from their training? the answer is pretty obvious, both players put in the same amount of time but one is gonna benifit MUCH more than the other, the problem lies within the western esports scene as a whole and not with the player
Didnt u know that be4 becoming progamer? I even knew that. Now u start complaining?
On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote: and where its heading,
Seeing these x-korean leaves x- team in search of a foreign team announcements is starting to become customary these days, i feel like as a foreign player alot of our interests aren't being heard because typically foreign progamers don't voice their issues as much as they should, we just keep the talk between ourselves which doesn't accomplish anything and tbh i feel like sooner or later were going to need an organisation that can represent our interests just so we can legitimize the industry because as it is alot of us are getting fed the shit-end of the stick
You voice your opinion plenty (SotG, this thread?) and I don't see at all how it connects with the first sentence of Koreans leaving teams.
On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote: now to get to the main issue, I'm all for the globalization of esports and as an sc1 player i always looked up to korean players and dreamt of being able play competitively in korea someday but ill be honest.. ive always wondered why foreign players were never offered the same type of treatment in sc1 as the koreans are currently being offered in sc2, good on them if all the teams and the fans are welcoming them with open arms but afaik when ret tried to become a progamer they chased him out of korea and never gave him the opportunity to do so, they excluded us from everything because we were of no use to them.
You wonder why Korean teams didn't fly in foreigners en-masse? Is that a serious question? Also don't use "they" as if the whole of Korea has some national anti-foreigners policy.
On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote: now to be fair i don't know if the reason why we were ostracized so much from their scene had something to do with kespa, the teams/players or if it had to do with something else but in any case thats not what im here to talk about, what i wanted to voice were a few issues from the players perspesctive
it was probably the combination of foreigners not being good and teams not having money.
On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote: 1) I know as fans u probably wont care much about this because u just want to see high class players representing ur favourite teams(regardless of where they come from) but this is an extremely sensitive issue to the players. Any potential $$ that is going to a korean player is potential money that isn't going to our players, a HUGE portion of the players are being underpaid, the amount of money vs the amount of time we have to put into the game in order to stay competitive is let's say..... very shitty? On top of that we can't get the same type of training that the koreans are getting because our infrastructure fucking blows, now all of a sudden the korean players are saying to themselves "hmmm, not only can we rape all their tournaments but we can probably take over all their teams aswell", whats going to happen to us 5-10 years down the line?
So where is money supposed to go in a "job" that actually consists of playing for results in a competitive environment. Should we be paying people for the simple merit of showing up to tournaments? Fuck that -.-
On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote: For alot of foreign players its extremely hard to drop everything in our lives just so we can move to korea in order to keep up with them practice-wise. Why cant we have the same type of training that they have without having to sacrifice a huge portion of our lives? The only foreigner players who wont fall behind the koreans skill wise are the ones who will be willing to sacrifice a huge part of their lives so they can practice over there and alot of those players are either a) young or b) are already financially set, that type of sacrifice wont impact them as much as say a top european or north american foreign player whos in his early-midd twenties and isnt getting paid/isnt willing to sacrifice his life as much as those players which makes that type of sacrifice an extremely high risk thing to do
So Korea should be pumping money into people not willing to make a sacrifice because if they don't then the Korean scene will dominate the foreign scene that just isn't... what? fair?
On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote: if things dont change then 3 years from now the high level european/na players are going to make their living off of their team salarys/stream while playing the occasional online tournament and the skillgap between them and the koreans is going to grow so much that they'll end up being a non factor in tournaments, that being said ull still have the odd 4-5 well paid foreigners practicing in korea who are going to give them a run for their money at each tournament(however their going to fail 95% of the time simply because were outnumbered), if ur satisfied with that then im happy for u but unfortunately alot of talented players will never achieve their true potential and we'll never get to know what type of player they could have turned into which to me would be the greatest tragedy in esports
I don't understand this blog at all. And your spelling is horrible
On January 16 2012 20:02 fams wrote: I just want to say, the amount of dedication and professionalism from the majority of Korean players trumps that of the majority of Western players. Not to mention, from a marketing standpoint, Korean professional gamers offer a lot more in terms of Starcraft because of the stigma in all our heads that Koreans are the gosu's and Westerners are the chobo's.
When I go to a major tournament, who do I see practising every moment between games? Korean players. Are there some foreigners who also do this? Sure, of course, Strelok for one does this as well. What do I see when the tournament is done for the day? For the majority of Western players (oddly enough the ones not doing well) are out drinking and partying. Meanwhile, the Westerners who are doing good (IdrA, HuK, etc.) are in their rooms early, sleeping. As are the Koreans - or if you are a SlayerS member, like MMA and BoxeR, you stay up to 2am practising some more.
Additionally, Korean professional gamers give up a lot as well, just as much as IdrA and HuK in some cases. IdrA and HuK gave up their family and friends to move abroad to follow their dreams of becoming professional gamers - is that not what viOlet and Artist are doing? They gave up their families and friends to move to the USA in order to pursue their career as pro-gamers.
Not to mention the time the Koreans (and now people like IdrA and HuK) put in at those pro-gaming houses, is massive compared to the time the vast majority of Westerners put into the game.
I will agree that there needs to be a governing body with the PLAYERS best interests at heart, but segregating it based on ethnicity would just defeat the purpose.
I feel that if players, from any part of the world, wish to become a professional gamer and have this as their #1 source of income and livelihood should learn that this industry, despite its recent boom, is still incredibly small, and only a select few are going to make money at this and be able to sustain themselves. If you want to be one of those lucky few - you are going to have to learn how to make those sacrifices, and become smarter not only as a player and become better, but also as an individual and learn how to market yourself so you are more valuable to a team.
not all true though, I've seen koreans partying at MLGs lol
On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote: For alot of foreign players its extremely hard to drop everything in our lives just so we can move to korea in order to keep up with them practice-wise. Why cant we have the same type of training that they have without having to sacrifice a huge portion of our lives?
I don't get it, in what way are the Koreans that're having this amazing training not sacrificing huge portions of their lives? The reason the Korean scene is so strong is precisely that there are a lot of people willing to sacrifice their time all day every day to improve; the foreign scene is comparatively weak because people don't commit like the Koreans do.
Are you asking that foreign players get special treatment because they don't commit to pro gaming like the Koreans are?
On January 16 2012 19:54 Seraphone wrote: Koreans work harder, play better therefore deserve more money. Why should you be paid less for doing a worse job?
if i practice 8 hours a day on na and a korean practices 8 hours a day in a team house + on the korea ladder, whos gonna benifit more from their training? the answer is pretty obvious, both players put in the same amount of time but one is gonna benifit MUCH more than the other, the problem lies within the western esports scene as a whole and not with the player
But there's actually players in eu/us that can compete with koreans. There's just alot of "known" low end pros in the foreigner camp. Koreans have shown that they are the best so they can join foreign teams and it's beneficial to both parties. Foreginers haven't show much at all in either BW or SC2 in korea so why should the koreans care about the rest of the world when it comes to talent?
Err so you have a problem with the nationality of players who are being picked up by teams? That sounds ridiculously racist to me. I kinda understand where you're coming from, though, and I don't think you're actually trying to be racist
But I do disagree in opinion. I actually think Korean players joining foreign teams will benefit the foreign pros. It actually opens up training partner options for players on that team.
Also, saying that foreign teams adding one or two Koreans players to their roster will erase all foreign players off foreign teams is one _hell_ of a slippery slope argument!
GL to you dude; you're highly skilled and I hope you're just as motivated to stay near the top.
On January 16 2012 19:54 Seraphone wrote: Koreans work harder, play better therefore deserve more money. Why should you be paid less for doing a worse job?
if i practice 8 hours a day on na and a korean practices 8 hours a day in a team house + on the korea ladder, whos gonna benifit more from their training? the answer is pretty obvious, both players put in the same amount of time but one is gonna benifit MUCH more than the other, the problem lies within the western esports scene as a whole and not with the player
this is so stupid ... if a korean pratice 8 hours a day on na , he will be in better shape thanthe average european who practices in a korean team house. european would use only ~4 hours of the time. rest of the time he would hang out on skype/facebook/tl/twitter etc
Yes it would be great if you could earn several thousand dollars each month, go to school have a girlfriend and a lot of free time while still being top50 worldwide at any competitive discipline. That wont happen. Hard work and sacrifice translates into improvement and eventually money - it doesnt work the other way around.
On January 16 2012 19:54 Seraphone wrote: Koreans work harder, play better therefore deserve more money. Why should you be paid less for doing a worse job?
if i practice 8 hours a day on na and a korean practices 8 hours a day in a team house + on the korea ladder, whos gonna benifit more from their training? the answer is pretty obvious, both players put in the same amount of time but one is gonna benifit MUCH more than the other, the problem lies within the western esports scene as a whole and not with the player
i actually touched on this point in my initial post.. the only way to stay competitive would be to move to korea but there are certain contrainsts that make that sort of a commitment too much of a high risk thing to do
So either convince your team that you have potential enough to be worth sending to Korea or don't make that sacrifice and don't complain the Koreans should be sacrificing instead.
"they excluded us from everything because we were of no use to them" Exactly, you were, compared to them, bad players and didn't contribute to anything. This is quite the opposite in the current situation, because only Korean games and a very select few foreigner ones are worth watching.
Then the sacrifice part. What exactly is your point? Koreans also sacrifice their entire lives for a shitty house to prac in 24/7 and get no/hardly any money unless they win big tournaments, which only few can. Their only advantage is that they don't have to leave the country, because they have the best prac environment right there. Also foreigners are accepted now by koreans, so if you want to earn some money, go get better.
On January 16 2012 19:54 Seraphone wrote: Koreans work harder, play better therefore deserve more money. Why should you be paid less for doing a worse job?
if i practice 8 hours a day on na and a korean practices 8 hours a day in a team house + on the korea ladder, whos gonna benifit more from their training? the answer is pretty obvious, both players put in the same amount of time but one is gonna benifit MUCH more than the other, the problem lies within the western esports scene as a whole and not with the player
i actually touched on this point in my initial post.. the only way to stay competitive would be to move to korea but there are certain contrainsts that make that sort of a commitment too much of a high risk thing to do
are you saying its a shame foreigners are underpaid because they train 8 hours a day? Should players be paid considering the amount of practice they put in or should they be paid considering their ACHIEVEMENTS? Kind of a joke that ur asking for more money if u achieve 0 tbh.
I so agree with you! Ive thought of this for so many many years now! We foreigners have a good opportunity right now! Because most of the money is in the foreign leagues/tournaments atm. We should do something about it.
On January 16 2012 20:02 fams wrote: I just want to say, the amount of dedication and professionalism from the majority of Korean players trumps that of the majority of Western players. Not to mention, from a marketing standpoint, Korean professional gamers offer a lot more in terms of Starcraft because of the stigma in all our heads that Koreans are the gosu's and Westerners are the chobo's.
When I go to a major tournament, who do I see practising every moment between games? Korean players. Are there some foreigners who also do this? Sure, of course, Strelok for one does this as well. What do I see when the tournament is done for the day? For the majority of Western players (oddly enough the ones not doing well) are out drinking and partying. Meanwhile, the Westerners who are doing good (IdrA, HuK, etc.) are in their rooms early, sleeping. As are the Koreans - or if you are a SlayerS member, like MMA and BoxeR, you stay up to 2am practising some more.
Additionally, Korean professional gamers give up a lot as well, just as much as IdrA and HuK in some cases. IdrA and HuK gave up their family and friends to move abroad to follow their dreams of becoming professional gamers - is that not what viOlet and Artist are doing? They gave up their families and friends to move to the USA in order to pursue their career as pro-gamers.
Not to mention the time the Koreans (and now people like IdrA and HuK) put in at those pro-gaming houses, is massive compared to the time the vast majority of Westerners put into the game.
I will agree that there needs to be a governing body with the PLAYERS best interests at heart, but segregating it based on ethnicity would just defeat the purpose.
I feel that if players, from any part of the world, wish to become a professional gamer and have this as their #1 source of income and livelihood should learn that this industry, despite its recent boom, is still incredibly small, and only a select few are going to make money at this and be able to sustain themselves. If you want to be one of those lucky few - you are going to have to learn how to make those sacrifices, and become smarter not only as a player and become better, but also as an individual and learn how to market yourself so you are more valuable to a team.
not all true though, I've seen koreans partying at MLGs lol
Yes so have I, but generally that is after they are knocked out of the tournament, or they end up not doing that well.
On January 16 2012 19:54 Seraphone wrote: Koreans work harder, play better therefore deserve more money. Why should you be paid less for doing a worse job?
if i practice 8 hours a day on na and a korean practices 8 hours a day in a team house + on the korea ladder, whos gonna benifit more from their training? the answer is pretty obvious, both players put in the same amount of time but one is gonna benifit MUCH more than the other, the problem lies within the western esports scene as a whole and not with the player
Paving the road is very hard, we need to set houses immedietly and start training people otherwise it will be BW era again. Look at Counter-strike teams, because its team based game, this effect made people to actually start practicing together in houses, and those teams had excelled at LANs, in fact Europe (mostly sweden) stayed on top of the cream for years, it was almost like Korea in BW for CS for a few years.
Well in terms of BW/SC2, the problem is that most people come out of closet, they start individually ... and stay individually even if they have team tag before their names. Complete lack of infrastructure means worse strategies, worse quality practice, exatcly like you say. Its massive cultural barrier for us to break which equals in no desire to be the best, and Korean dominance can either help it (we will make houses/infrastructure to fight it back) or completetly break it like in BW (we dont have any choice either you go to Korea or you are irrelevant).
As much as I want to agree with what TT1 is saying it really is of no concern to the fans, most of which like to watch the best players play. Sure they have a few favourites from some foreign teams but when it comes down to Skorea puts out the best talent, and everyone loves to see those kinds of matches.
As far as "infrastructure" the western side of e-sports will probably always suffer, even teams who try the "team-house" mentality fail to produce any good results or even maintain a grind it out kind of practice schedule it seems ( speculation obviously ).
Essentially it all boils down to what naniwa said (paraphrasing) if you want to be the best you go to korea, if you don't go to korea you aren't taking it seriously enough and will never be the best.
He doesn't necessarily want to be there, but he knows what is good for his career and is willing to sacrifice that portion of his life to reach his potential. In this regard it is hard to have sympathy with any pro-gamer who wants to complain about the not having a korean style scene or practice situation, the option is there, people seem either to scared to fail or unwilling to put the effort in to go and try.
All personal opinion, not any representation of any pros thoughts just a general sense I get from what I have seen since release.
On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote: Why cant we have the same type of training that they have without having to sacrifice a huge portion of our lives?
Because that would be unfair? Because thats what the koreans do? Because all that the koreans learn is playing starcraft? Because they won't be able to get a good "normal" job afterwards and pretty much have a "do or die" situation here? I'm sorry, I get your main points and all, but some things really surprise me. I think you should know better than that. If you want to be a progamer, don't complain about the commitment. The koreans have the same amount of commitment. Everyone has. No one becomes a progamer overnight because he had a good dream.
I do however know your other points, especially about being generally being underpaid, and I fully support you in these cases.
First of all, shouldn't this be a blog? You're not asking any questions or looking for a discussion by the looks of it.
I'm trying to understand your point, but it is hard, because this is what professional sport is like. All sports are like this, because of the very nature of competition. Why should someone that doesn't achieve "anything" get paid the same as those that do? Money doesn't grow on trees, and in a competitive environment you will have to give it your all, or be satisfied with being underpaid/casual. In the US many players are drafted for competitive sports in high school (right?), to play sports fulltime. If that fails, you have no education, but they do it because it's their dream and they give it their all. Same for many other sports where you can spend 4-12 hours daily refining your skill, and basically not have time to do anything else; You end up all-in, so to speak. This is how the world works, because we as viewers do not wan't to pay money to watch "bad" players play, we want to watch the best compete and keep push the limits.
It is something every athlete that wants to be professional has to face eventually. Do you want to play casually for your own sake, or do you want to take a risk and try to become the best. 99% "fail", 1% is the best of the best. Deal with it or get a normal job like most people - and those that didn't wan't to take the risk.
That being said, an organization is probably not a bad idea to preserve the interests of the players, but it won't change much. Few sponsors would be interested in paying for mediocre play, unless you can somehow offer other ways of "selling" their product.
On January 16 2012 20:02 fams wrote: I just want to say, the amount of dedication and professionalism from the majority of Korean players trumps that of the majority of Western players. Not to mention, from a marketing standpoint, Korean professional gamers offer a lot more in terms of Starcraft because of the stigma in all our heads that Koreans are the gosu's and Westerners are the chobo's.
When I go to a major tournament, who do I see practising every moment between games? Korean players. Are there some foreigners who also do this? Sure, of course, Strelok for one does this as well. What do I see when the tournament is done for the day? For the majority of Western players (oddly enough the ones not doing well) are out drinking and partying. Meanwhile, the Westerners who are doing good (IdrA, HuK, etc.) are in their rooms early, sleeping. As are the Koreans - or if you are a SlayerS member, like MMA and BoxeR, you stay up to 2am practising some more.
Additionally, Korean professional gamers give up a lot as well, just as much as IdrA and HuK in some cases. IdrA and HuK gave up their family and friends to move abroad to follow their dreams of becoming professional gamers - is that not what viOlet and Artist are doing? They gave up their families and friends to move to the USA in order to pursue their career as pro-gamers.
Not to mention the time the Koreans (and now people like IdrA and HuK) put in at those pro-gaming houses, is massive compared to the time the vast majority of Westerners put into the game.
I will agree that there needs to be a governing body with the PLAYERS best interests at heart, but segregating it based on ethnicity would just defeat the purpose.
I feel that if players, from any part of the world, wish to become a professional gamer and have this as their #1 source of income and livelihood should learn that this industry, despite its recent boom, is still incredibly small, and only a select few are going to make money at this and be able to sustain themselves. If you want to be one of those lucky few - you are going to have to learn how to make those sacrifices, and become smarter not only as a player and become better, but also as an individual and learn how to market yourself so you are more valuable to a team.
not all true though, I've seen koreans partying at MLGs lol
Yes so have I, but generally that is after they are knocked out of the tournament, or they end up not doing that well.
as far as I'm concerned it was the same for every foreigners I hung out with, they all went partying when they were knocked out
On January 16 2012 20:07 discobaas wrote: "they excluded us from everything because we were of no use to them" Exactly, you were, compared to them, bad players and didn't contribute to anything. This is quite the opposite in the current situation, because only Korean games and a very select few foreigner ones are worth watching.
Then the sacrifice part. What exactly is your point? Koreans also sacrifice their entire lives for a shitty house to prac in 24/7 and get no/hardly any money unless they win big tournaments, which only few can. Their only advantage is that they don't have to leave the country, because they have the best prac environment right there. Also foreigners are accepted now by koreans, so if you want to earn some money, go get better.
koreans sacrificed their lives living in their homecountrys, they were still connected with their friends and familys
pholon why did u remove the thread from the sc2 section?
I would like to hear which progamers are the ones complaining about koreans to foreign teams. I'm going to guess that these progamers are not accomplishing anything and jealously could be the reason for all the talk. Anyways, it's not like the koreans are taking money away from the foreigners - many of the progamers cited by TT1 (which includes himself) are going to struggle to earn money in a foreign team.
Believe it or not, eSports is like any other sport people watch - those who produce results will be the ones who get paid. You can't be with the a Utah Jazz player whining about how much money is going to the LA Lakers and not to you.
You don't want to drop everything you do in your life (which Koreans do to become a real progamer) and then are not happy with the state of the current skill & salary gap that exists between Koreans & foreigners.
Sadly, you need to understand that the Korean culture is such that gaming is more accepted in their country as a career and not as much in the US/EU. Want to make money or get better? Join the guys who make sc2 their life and replicate what they do.
Dont expect to do progaming half-assed and then get bothered about Koreans winning everything or getting high salaries etc.
I find it hard to take this seriously when it's written with such terrible punctuation. That and the fact that there's nothing new in this blog makes it quite uninteresting. Sorry.
On January 16 2012 20:07 discobaas wrote: "they excluded us from everything because we were of no use to them" Exactly, you were, compared to them, bad players and didn't contribute to anything. This is quite the opposite in the current situation, because only Korean games and a very select few foreigner ones are worth watching.
Then the sacrifice part. What exactly is your point? Koreans also sacrifice their entire lives for a shitty house to prac in 24/7 and get no/hardly any money unless they win big tournaments, which only few can. Their only advantage is that they don't have to leave the country, because they have the best prac environment right there. Also foreigners are accepted now by koreans, so if you want to earn some money, go get better.
koreans sacrificed their lives living in their homecountrys, they were still connected with their friends and familys
pholon why did u remove the thread from the sc2 section?
Just like all other sports, if you don't live in the area with the best competition, you will have to go there if you want to become the best/participate in the best tournaments.
Your thread was probably moved because it is a blog. This isn't a discussion, this is you venting your thoughts.
On January 16 2012 20:07 discobaas wrote: "they excluded us from everything because we were of no use to them" Exactly, you were, compared to them, bad players and didn't contribute to anything. This is quite the opposite in the current situation, because only Korean games and a very select few foreigner ones are worth watching.
Then the sacrifice part. What exactly is your point? Koreans also sacrifice their entire lives for a shitty house to prac in 24/7 and get no/hardly any money unless they win big tournaments, which only few can. Their only advantage is that they don't have to leave the country, because they have the best prac environment right there. Also foreigners are accepted now by koreans, so if you want to earn some money, go get better.
koreans sacrificed their lives living in their homecountrys, they were still connected with their friends and familys
Isn't that just an assumption, though? Many koreans like MC stated that they practice 6 days a week and sometimes even 7, 10+ hours in a teamhouse together with others. They barely do anything else than playing starcraft all day.
I think as far as commitment goes foreigners are not in the position to complain.
On January 16 2012 20:07 discobaas wrote: "they excluded us from everything because we were of no use to them" Exactly, you were, compared to them, bad players and didn't contribute to anything. This is quite the opposite in the current situation, because only Korean games and a very select few foreigner ones are worth watching.
Then the sacrifice part. What exactly is your point? Koreans also sacrifice their entire lives for a shitty house to prac in 24/7 and get no/hardly any money unless they win big tournaments, which only few can. Their only advantage is that they don't have to leave the country, because they have the best prac environment right there. Also foreigners are accepted now by koreans, so if you want to earn some money, go get better.
koreans sacrificed their lives living in their homecountrys, they were still connected with their friends and familys
pholon why did u remove the thread from the sc2 section?
Because there is not discussion in this thread.It's you venting on the current situation that we all know what it is like and we can't help you in any way. Probably.
On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote: Any potential $$ that is going to a korean player is potential money that isn't going to our players, a HUGE portion of the players are being underpaid, the amount of money vs the amount of time we have to put into the game in order to stay competitive is let's say..... very shitty?
You do realise most of the korean players are in the same freaking situation as foreign players right? The truth is only big name players who's had some form of accomplishment in korea are beign picked up and deserved to be picked up. It's not like we see some random code B player we've never heard of getting signed a billion dollars simply because he used to be a mediocre bw pro and had 1 broadcasted game in SC2 = =
On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote:For alot of foreign players its extremely hard to drop everything in our lives just so we can move to korea in order to keep up with them practice-wise. Why cant we have the same type of training that they have without having to sacrifice a huge portion of our lives? The only foreigner players who wont fall behind the koreans skill wise are the ones who will be willing to sacrifice a huge part of their lives so they can practice over there and alot of those players are either a) young or b) are already financially set, that type of sacrifice wont impact them as much as say a top european or north american foreign player whos in his early-midd twenties and isnt getting paid/isnt willing to sacrifice his life as much as those players which makes that type of sacrifice an extremely high risk thing to do
You make it sound like the koreans don't have to make any sacrifice? You make it sound like all the koreans live in Seoul and DRG didn't move across country to play for MVP. You make it sound like Leenock didn't quit school before completing highschool to become one of the best zergs players. Did any of the foreigners decide to quit highschool to really focus on SC2? Koreans are in the same boat as foreign players, we see these young players living in teamhouses, potentially quitting school to play in a sport. We've also seen players like Puma moving out of korea to a new environment to be on a team too. So who are you to say that foreigners make more sacrifices than koreans?
On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote:if things dont change then 3 years from now the high level european/na players are going to make their living off of their team salarys/stream while playing the occasional online tournament and the skillgap between them and the koreans is going to grow so much that they'll end up being a non factor in tournaments, that being said ull still have the odd 4-5 well paid foreigners practicing in korea who are going to give them a run for their money at each tournament(however their going to fail 95% of the time simply because were outnumbered), if ur satisfied with that then im happy for u but unfortunately alot of talented players will never achieve their true potential and we'll never get to know what type of player they could have turned into which to me would be the greatest tragedy in esports
1.) why pick the number 3? please explain because I don't see the significance of the number 3 2.) i would believe that many fans would stop watching foreigner streams if the skill gap increases anyway 3.) you make it sound like the future of SCII is going to be about tournament money. No, I'm sorry to break it to you, the future of SCII is going to be salary-based like BW progaming and hopefully even more mature than BW progaming. Mr Chae indicated that the 2011 year of SCII is to help teams to attract sponsors. Hopefully kids like Leenock won't have to quit school to risk everything for something they may or may not succeed in.
Something may be wrong if foreigners aren't allowed to try out and compete - but as long as it's purely skill based, meh, that's just fair.
Some foreigners went and stayed in korea during brood:war too.
It's like ... american players have an advantage when it comes to playing in the NBA, but if you are good enough, you'll have a chance. Same with american football. When it comes to Sumo, japan leads the way. If you are norwegian and want to be a professional Cricket player, you are kind of out of luck unless you move somewhere else. And so on ...
If you happen to live somewhere where your chosen sport isn't a big thing, then you have to move to where it is if you want to be the best in the world. It's really that simple. The only unfair thing about it is really if you are banned from moving to korea for some reason ...
lol no one is "underpaid".. everyone is getting what they deserve. If youre good and win a lot of tournaments, you will get paid accordingly. "potential" doesnt mean shit. a lot of people have potential...like every no-namer in code A. What matters is RESULTS.
"if im not eating or sleeping, im playing SC2" - DRG If you want to play with the best, you train like the best
It's not JUST hard work that makes Koreans stronger players on average. Despite the regular pounding he gets on here Naniwa is renowned for having a monstrous work ethic. Remember when he first became a monster and destroyed an MLG with some ridiculous sets score like 24-2 or something? The guy was so far ahead of most of the foreign scene based on hard work and some latent talent, but in the end he started stagnating and acknowledged that he had to move to Korea to achieve his personal dream of being the best player in the world.
Incidentally, I don't know what the majority of TL users even want in their players anyway. Naniwa, even before 'probegate' seemed to attract his fair share of haters, but he's one of the few foreigners who seem to reach the 'standards of practice' that we demand of our pro players.
People are saying that Koreans sacrifice a ton to move into pro-houses with the only mitigating factor being that they get to stay in their home country. This is a huge, huge difference compared to what a foreigner sacrifices to move to Korea. I would be perfectly happy to sacrifice a year or two to pursue something like playing professionally if it was within my own culture/within reach of family if things go wrong. I could even envisage (if I was good which I'm not ) moving to the European mainland at a stretch.
On another point I recall Artosis and others talking about a global beta server when it first came out, and how it had latency reduction and was very playable. Why couldn't Blizzard try and do this by opening a cross-server 'pro's only' server with some kind of fee to be paid for it to make it worth their while.
As it is top pros are making out that laddering on US and EU is becoming redundant, so looking for ways for the foreign scene to improve without upping sticks and all moving to Seoul should be done.
I dont understand why so many foreign teams are wasting money sending mediocre players to Korea.
You dont speak a work of Korean, so you can thoroughly discuss strats with the KR Pros Youre most likely hanging out with foreigners all day in GOM house getting drunk Laddering all day which you could do from home on the KR ladder just with a bit of lag
On January 16 2012 20:17 1sz2sz3sz wrote: I dont understand why so many foreign teams are wasting money sending mediocre players to Korea.
You dont speak a work of Korean, so you can thoroughly discuss strats with the KR Pros Youre most likely hanging out with foreigners all day in GOM house getting drunk Laddering all day which you could do from home on the KR ladder just with a bit of lag
Do people think its the water?
Most teams do this to try out their players @GSL qualifiers afaik.
On January 16 2012 20:07 discobaas wrote: "they excluded us from everything because we were of no use to them" Exactly, you were, compared to them, bad players and didn't contribute to anything. This is quite the opposite in the current situation, because only Korean games and a very select few foreigner ones are worth watching.
Then the sacrifice part. What exactly is your point? Koreans also sacrifice their entire lives for a shitty house to prac in 24/7 and get no/hardly any money unless they win big tournaments, which only few can. Their only advantage is that they don't have to leave the country, because they have the best prac environment right there. Also foreigners are accepted now by koreans, so if you want to earn some money, go get better.
koreans sacrificed their lives living in their homecountrys, they were still connected with their friends and familys
pholon why did u remove the thread from the sc2 section?
can u stop this please? its getting ridiculous. Ever saw Cool Running? Why cant the Jamaicans have the same infrastucture like the other Countries when it comes to bobsledding? Why dont we have the same Infrastructure here in EU like NA, when it comes to American Football, Baseball, ... its so unfair 8¢ lets all cry.
Is it about you being underpaid? (I want more moneys!) Is it about lacking foreign practise environment? (We need better evironment to compete with Koreans!) Is it about Koreans taking over the SC2 world? (Soon Koreans will go everyone and win everything!). Is it about you wanting a player association? (We need someone to talk for us!) And what does the way Koreans handled foreigners during SCBW have to do with anything?
Well we can say EG trying with the EG house, but imo I can't say that's successful or did do any difference in US, but it might would had do difference in kr...
Well this is maybe off topic, but dno I get your point TT1.
On January 16 2012 20:17 1sz2sz3sz wrote: I dont understand why so many foreign teams are wasting money sending mediocre players to Korea.
You dont speak a work of Korean, so you can thoroughly discuss strats with the KR Pros Youre most likely hanging out with foreigners all day in GOM house getting drunk Laddering all day which you could do from home on the KR ladder just with a bit of lag
Do people think its the water?
the lag from here is bad enough that practicing on KR ladder is pointless
Koreans do better just because they have an awesome teamhouse? Well EG has an awesome one, but you don't see all of their players kicking ass left and right. The few who really stand up to the koreans are Idra and Huk (aside from Puma and JYP). So, why can Idra and Huk get into Code S while others training in the teamhouse don't seem to be showing much results? Teamhouse is a factor but it ain't everything. If someone throw you and another 9 guys into a teamhouse, will you produce results like those coming out of the Slayers house or would it end up like another... you know? I'm not saying the players are not working hard there, but you can't deny there isn't a huge difference between them and a korean teamhouse. No one's asking you to be top 8 at every tournament you join but if you're good, like maybe... Stephano? You don't need a teamhouse to be winning IEMs, ESWC, Shoutcraft bla bla bla Your argument is kind of invalid.
You mentioned a lot of good points in your post, but what do you want us to do about it?? You want every foreign team to sponsor their players to korea to train there? It's nobody's fault if you can't or your team can't do that. Let's say I want to study in some awesome university in UK but I don't have the money to do so, do I make a post at some forum and complain? You have to admit, majority of the people living in NA/EU are better off financially compared to most people at other parts of the world. It's also the same shit as, I'm Asian I love soccer but I can't do shit unless I go to some famous football club to train in the UK since young or I'll never make a name for myself in such a puny country I come from where soccer is not well-known for.
You seem to have written a lot, but it doesn't seem like you came up with any brilliant solutions to it.
On January 16 2012 20:16 Wombat_NI wrote: It's not JUST hard work that makes Koreans stronger players on average. Despite the regular pounding he gets on here Naniwa is renowned for having a monstrous work ethic. Remember when he first became a monster and destroyed an MLG with some ridiculous sets score like 24-2 or something? The guy was so far ahead of most of the foreign scene based on hard work and some latent talent, but in the end he started stagnating and acknowledged that he had to move to Korea to achieve his personal dream of being the best player in the world.
Incidentally, I don't know what the majority of TL users even want in their players anyway. Naniwa, even before 'probegate' seemed to attract his fair share of haters, but he's one of the few foreigners who seem to reach the 'standards of practice' that we demand of our pro players.
People are saying that Koreans sacrifice a ton to move into pro-houses with the only mitigating factor being that they get to stay in their home country. This is a huge, huge difference compared to what a foreigner sacrifices to move to Korea. I would be perfectly happy to sacrifice a year or two to pursue something like playing professionally if it was within my own culture/within reach of family if things go wrong. I could even envisage (if I was good which I'm not ) moving to the European mainland at a stretch.
On another point I recall Artosis and others talking about a global beta server when it first came out, and how it had latency reduction and was very playable. Why couldn't Blizzard try and do this by opening a cross-server 'pro's only' server with some kind of fee to be paid for it to make it worth their while.
As it is top pros are making out that laddering on US and EU is becoming redundant, so looking for ways for the foreign scene to improve without upping sticks and all moving to Seoul should be done.
I guarantee you that if the best possible place to be for sc2 was NA/EU, 90% of the korean progamers would be willing to pick up and move to pursue their dreams.
Also TT1, I'm not saying you're bad, but you're not A level foreigner. There's no reason to complain about your training environment when you have plenty of room to improve yourself in the foreign scene. And NA > KR latency isn't so bad that you can't practice on their servers. If you wanna QQ that you can't talk about strategies with koreans, then how is that in any way shape or form the fault of other teams picking up koreans?
I remember many foreigners attempting courage and failing hardcore. Also, but maybe Idra, no one ever accepted / went through the modern sc1 training regiment in Korea, because it's too hard and life is too miserable there. The few foreign players actually winning stuff in sc2 get salaries. Big lans are open tournaments most of the time, and to be honest, I believe some sub par foreign competitors are getting a pretty unfair treatment compared to some koreans who are of much higher skill caliber and still win those tournaments. See leenock for instance.
On January 16 2012 20:24 Enfield wrote: Most Foreign players are boring to watch sadly, including your self
not sure wtf was the point of this comment
Well i'm not sure what the point of the post was, is it about him been underpaid? And i was confriming what he said about only caring about the best players, which is why im interested in watching Sc2.
A very sobering point. How much money is being put into getting good Korean players to travel over, instead of developing non-Koreans? I wonder if teams will be like that outside of Korea, where all the resources go to keeping a few Korea players happy, while everyone else gets very little.
On January 16 2012 20:24 Enfield wrote: Most Foreign players are boring to watch sadly, including your self
Uh.. ok? Why are you even bringing this up? This doesn't help at all..
Probably because there are two ways of earning money in sports:
1. Win stuff. 2. Be so entertaining that you have a worth regardless of results.
Have one or both and sponsors will have something worth their while. Have neither and you will have to think long and hard about who would want to pay you money to play a videogame.
You said you look up to koreans. Then I say one thing : practice partners @ SC1. Playing all day erry day for free, hoping for a CHANCE to become B teamers which is still highly underpaid with NO tv appearances at all.
I know this is not SC1 but thoughout the history of mankind, this is the best time to live in if you're a progamer. If you're decently good (nothing compared to lower tier koreans however, no offense but look at desrow), you already got a team, which is not much, but actually pays. Then there you have streaming and millions of tournaments.
When I was packing away my father's belongings, I realized we didn't have a single family picture. My father worked in Japan to earn our family money since I was very young. I never saw my father in elementary and middle school. When he came back, I was already part of a team and living in a dormitory, so I never saw him.
Before my father passed away, he suggested that we go on a vacation to Jaeju island. He suggested it when he was healthy, but then was admitted to a hospital and passed away in less than a week. We missed the opportunity to go on our first family vacation in 20 years.
On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote: ive always wondered why foreign players were never offered the same type of treatment in sc1 that the koreans are currently being offered in sc2, good on them if all the teams and the fans are welcoming them with open arms but afaik when ret tried to become a progamer they chased him out of korea and never gave him an opportunity to do so, they excluded us from everything because we were of no use to them
Not to be disrespectful to any non-korean players out there but why should any player get good treatment? Well, it's not that hard to understand.
Many pro-players from Korea have the talent to perform well internationally and earn his team money.
Foreign teams aren't acquiring pro-players from Korea because they want to give Koreans international practice or help them learn english. They win games, earn money and draw attention to their teams.
pro SC2 and other e-sports suffer from the same dilemma. You need to perform results and show yourself before anyone shows interest for you. If you are good enough teams in Korea will notice you. But atm there are too few foreign players that are good enough to be of value for Korean teams.
On January 16 2012 20:01 winthrop wrote: tbh are you competitive in Korea?
PS:Better players always have higher income
"Better players always have higher income"
This statement is near the zenith of Mt Bullshit. There are many incredible players that aren't sponsored, or Korean B-teamers that are better than "top" foreigners. Skill != money, ESPORTS is a business.
On January 16 2012 20:40 papaz wrote: pro SC2 and other e-sports suffer from the same dilemma. You need to perform results and show yourself before anyone shows interest for you. If you are good enough teams in Korea will notice you. But atm there are too few foreign players that are good enough to be of value for Korean teams.
I think this touches on another problem with non-Korean teams: because there's no emphasis on team play or in-house practice they don't have any rookies or B teamers. If you're an up and coming sc2 player your only hope of getting picked up is by gaining popularity through streaming.
Each to his own, if you're afraid they are going to take your place & get your salary or more money than you, then just.. Get better than them & make a bigger name for yourself than they do.
Look at moon, the guy focussed on 2 games at the same time yet got 2nd places at a couple of decent/big tournaments, when he switches over completely, teams know that he's got so much talent & that's what they're searching for.. A good player isn't only making a name for himself but also for the team he plays for so.. I think it's only natural that in a sense, not completely but still, in a sense, talent & skill & performances make the difference.
Though, dropping moon in here might've been a bad example as he's still for hire & doesn't have a team yet but oh well, you get my point.
I read this as the thoughts of a foreign pro which seemed incredibly accurate (because read the title... "The foreign progamers perspective on esports"), yet people are reading it like TT1 is whining/begging for sympathy/wanting to get more money... wtf ~~ love u payam
It's like this with alot of sports. Brazilians dominate MMA, it's just that they've got infrastructure and a long history with the sport. As MMA has a much larger audience it's feasible to start a brazilian run training camp in the US. It's probably not feasible for koreans to migrate to EU/US to start up teams yet.
It's just how the "sport" is atm. There's lots of potential, too little money, and one nation that has a huge edge.
On January 16 2012 20:59 KawaiiRice wrote: I read this as the thoughts of a foreign pro which seemed incredibly accurate (because read the title... "The foreign progamers perspective on esports"), yet people are reading it like TT1 is whining/begging for sympathy/wanting to get more money... wtf ~~ love u payam
Sure it is accurate but he is only stating the obvious and asking for the unattainable... to me anyways. He argues that Koreans do not sacrifice nearly as much as europeans or NA because they live in korea. Do you realize how large South Korea is? it isn't some small city where someone can take a bus ride home for a weekend, its significantly larger and a lot of the players give up social/academic lives to pursue what they want. One in a million(Polt) can attend a prestigious university and still play sc2, players like nada as well but we are talking very few numbers. A lot of people are really harsh on their criticisms but are technically right. You need to make larger sacrifices to overcome such barriers. At this point in your life if you don't think you can dedicate the time to be the best then so be it. The bar only goes up from here, never down.
On January 16 2012 20:59 KawaiiRice wrote: I read this as the thoughts of a foreign pro which seemed incredibly accurate (because read the title... "The foreign progamers perspective on esports"), yet people are reading it like TT1 is whining/begging for sympathy/wanting to get more money... wtf ~~ love u payam
The thing is, it's not accurate - it's not that the koreans are that much money away from foreigners - these foreign teams are not paying foreigners money because they are simply not good enough. If the koreans were not in foreign teams, then these foreigners won't be getting any money anyways. Regardless, many koreans (e.g. Golden + Dragon) have a blinkered imagination of the foreign riches - they will soon be in for a reality check because they are no-name koreans.
As for treatment of foreigners in korea, BW is in the past - it's SC2 now and GOM has been treating foreigners very well - providing a house and 2 Code S and many Code A seeds.
On January 16 2012 20:59 KawaiiRice wrote: I read this as the thoughts of a foreign pro which seemed incredibly accurate (because read the title... "The foreign progamers perspective on esports"), yet people are reading it like TT1 is whining/begging for sympathy/wanting to get more money... wtf ~~ love u payam
When ur objective, he IS whining.
"They" have better infrastructure. (didnt we know that be4?) "They" take money which should be spent on "OUR" players.
...
Its pathetic that a professional athlete is writing such horrible things. How can he not know that in professional sports skill and results are the deciding factors. Nobody cares where the athlete is from, when he is winning. And fact is: most of the "foreigners" are not winning. And this is not mainly due to the "infrastructure". Dont get me wrong, but most of the "foreigners" would still not win anything even when they hat the exact same infrastructure right in their neigborhood.
On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote: now to get to the main issue, I'm all for the globalization of esports and as an sc1 player ive always looked up to the korean players and dreamt of being able to play competitively in korea someday but ill be honest.. ive always wondered why foreign players were never offered the same type of treatment in sc1 that the koreans are currently being offered in sc2, good on them if all the teams and the fans are welcoming them with open arms but afaik when ret tried to become a progamer they chased him out of korea and never gave him an opportunity to do so, they excluded us from everything because we were of no use to them
now to be fair i don't know if the reason why we were ostracized so much from their scene had something to do with kespa, the teams/players or if it had to do with something else but in any case thats not what im here to talk about, what i wanted to voice were a few issues from the players perspesctive
Well the first big question you throw in, namely why are Koreans in sc2 welcomed by the foreign community but foreigners in broodwar had it tough in Korea - simple, Koreans in sc2 are great, foreigners in broodwar sucked, comparative to the scenes that they were joining. That's so obvious I don't know why its even in the OP.
As for the second, I can see your point and yes that sucks for foreigners, but the reason the teams/players in Korea are so good is because of the huge sacrifices they have made since day 1. And that's true not just for bw but also sc2. I'm sure heaps of the players last year were making next to nothing. It's their willingness to put up with that punishment and make something of it that is special. They haven't had to sacrifice any less than foreigners have to now (minus potentially moving country :p).
well I'm saying if you read it from just his perspective (which the title basically tells you) Obviously if you think about it in the overall scheme of SC2 it's incredibly whiny and stuff as everyone has pointed out but TT1 is giving his point of view as a pro... which to be honest I'm not sure why he posted it here but payam likes sharing his views with TL ... and I think it's backfired every single time lolol
On January 16 2012 21:32 KawaiiRice wrote: well I'm saying if you read it from just his perspective (which the title basically tells you) Obviously if you think about it in the overall scheme of SC2 it's incredibly whiny and stuff as everyone has pointed out but TT1 is giving his point of view as a pro... which to be honest I'm not sure why he posted it here but payam likes sharing his views with TL ... and I think it's backfired every single time lolol
Well but I think that is completely okay, isn't it? If you get your opinion out there, there will be people shitting on it, disagreeing etc etc
but there are western pro houses. the "root" house, which i think tt1 was invited to be a part of, the eg house etc. and yet korean b teamers are still popping up in team league or online cups and stomping nerds, everyone who has played in a western training house who wasnt already amazing hasnt shown that same kind of results.
work smart not hard, just because a korean does 8 hours a day aswell doesnt mean you are even approaching the practice in the same way.
im not disagreeing with tt1 that killing the western scene would be horrible, any pro of the future will be fucked and we will never see them, thats a bad thing. but i do disagree that just because he puts in 8 hours that means he deserves anything
On January 16 2012 21:32 KawaiiRice wrote: well I'm saying if you read it from just his perspective (which the title basically tells you) Obviously if you think about it in the overall scheme of SC2 it's incredibly whiny and stuff as everyone has pointed out but TT1 is giving his point of view as a pro... which to be honest I'm not sure why he posted it here but payam likes sharing his views with TL ... and I think it's backfired every single time lolol
Some of the stuff in the OP is just bad regardless of how you think about it. Questioning why koreans didn't involve foreigners in BW for example. TT1 really should know why that is, it's not rocket science.
Hah, the reason that Koreans are much better than you, TT1, and most other foreign players is not because they have better houses to train in (although that is a part), it's because they are much more dedicated. It's because for the most part, they breathe Starcraft II. There are very few foreigners that have been able to show the dedication of koreans (Idra, Huk, Naniwa, mainly). Those guys and Koreans sit down in a chair for 10 straight hours and get up under 5 times. They do not touch their internet browser, they stare at Starcraft II all day and play it, study it, or think about it. Idra said in an interview once that in SC:BW when he was living in the Entus house that they played for 12 hours a day, six days a week, with a one hour break. As soon as you can say you've done something even close to that dedicated for a decent amount of time and haven't seen results (even though your play has improved to reflect it), you, and no other foreign player, can whine about the world's imbalance. The reason the treatment of korean players is so much better is because Korean players are so much better. No one cares about the shittier athletes in any sport, this includes video games. Just because you're not Korean doesn't mean we're going to treat you better than the Koreans. We're not going to segregate them from us because they're better than almost all of the foreigners.
"Not until you want to succeed as badly as you want to breathe, will you ever succeed." - Eric Thomas.
On January 16 2012 19:47 padapuffis wrote: every man for himself. im attracted to talent thtats why i enjoy to watch koreans play because they are more skilled. i dont have that many symphaties for average foreigners, because they are pretty bad. i mb would cheer for some if they had any personality but most of them are just socially akward. Most progamers became progamers because they are lazy and suck at society. i think what makes korean champs is 80 % the right attitude and discpline etc. Most of the pros dont realise that its their job, i can guarantue you that not in any single job in the world , there will be this phenomen where you call out the more skilled and cry about how they make more money. Progamers need to grow up..
You missed the entire point of the whole OP. Korean players are so good because the infrastructure to GET that good has been laid down in a solid manner, where as us foreigners have no systematic approach to the games, thus not operating in optimal conditions.
Calling foreigners bad while ignoring the above point makes you ignorant and stupid. If you earn 200 euro a month with a 80 hour/week job you'd be unable to keep improving aswell. IF you need to join a top tier practice house in Korea to even remotely hope to get a chance, as the foreign scene does not support that, then that's a fundamental flaw in the system used. A lot of the pro's from EU/NA can beat and will beat Koreans when we subject these players to similar conditions as the Koreans are practicing under.
Don't be stupid and ignorant, think before you post.
Just because you put in 8 hours a day doesn't make you entitled to sponsorship money. It's a cutthroat industry and you need talent to make it far.
Of course being born in Korea offers advantages, but talent and hard work are the only two things you need to achieve a "breakout" performance that would land you a sponsored ticket and accommodation in Korea.
Even in sports, you see people go from playing football barefoot on the street to getting recruited into top clubs. It's even easier in Starcraft, where everyone is connected through the internet. Whats to stop you from playing on Kr server yourself?
On January 16 2012 21:32 KawaiiRice wrote: well I'm saying if you read it from just his perspective (which the title basically tells you) Obviously if you think about it in the overall scheme of SC2 it's incredibly whiny and stuff as everyone has pointed out but TT1 is giving his point of view as a pro... which to be honest I'm not sure why he posted it here but payam likes sharing his views with TL ... and I think it's backfired every single time lolol
hehe, ok. when we then just analyze his personal view we can summarize it like: im scared, the koreans come, and they r all better, because they have team houses. although they are better, i still wanna make money with sc2: but i dont want to improve/change my way of living. we need an alliance that protects all of us, and our lifestyles.
I don't understand what you are upset about TT1. Your blog is not very clear. The koreans chase foreigners out of korea? You don't provide much evidence for this claim. The infrastructure outside of korea is not very good? Korea has a long history of competitive esports, it only makes sense that they are ahead. Will this lead to more koreans and less foreigners in tournaments? I agree it probably will. Teams like FXO, EG, and Liquid are making major headway in both creating good infrastructure in the US and facilitating good relations between foreign teams and korean teams, at least as I understand it. What more would you like to see done? And who, if anybody, is being wronged at the moment? You say there is a lot of concerns progammers have that they are not voicing. What are these concerns? I didn't read anything in your blog that I didn't already know, nor did you suggest a solution.
Well, the only solution I could see to fix what TT1's "problem" essentially is that foreigners are isolated so that the koreans can't take "their" money. But then HOW DOES THIS FIX ANYTHING? You wanna isolate yourselves? Ok, then you fall even farther behind from the koreans who just have better everything. Better player pool, better discipline, etc. The only way this works out for foreigners to catch up is if they're able to flood the scene with so many players that eventually a few of them happen to be really talented.
However, you're missing one key point. Koreans = money. Look at MLG before and after koreans. The difference in revenue is huge. The koreans make the foreign scene money, and foreigners make the korean scene money.
On January 16 2012 21:51 mothergoose729 wrote: I don't understand what you are upset about TT1. Your blog is not very clear. The koreans chase foreigners out of korea? You don't provide much evidence for this claim. The infrastructure outside of korea is not very good? Korea has a long history of competitive esports, it only makes sense that they are ahead. Will this lead to more koreans and less foreigners in tournaments? I agree it probably will. Teams like FXO, EG, and Liquid are making major headway in both creating good infrastructure in the US and facilitating good relations between foreign teams and korean teams, at least as I understand it. What more would you like to see done? And who, if anybody, is being wronged at the moment? You say there is a lot of concerns progammers have that they are not voicing. What are these concerns? I didn't read anything in your blog that I didn't already know, nor did you suggest a solution.
"Evidence for this claim?" I guess you didn't follow the Broodwar scene that much.
I find alot of responses in this thread odd because I understand what TT1 is saying.
Koreans use all their power to support themselves and their infrastructure in esports. As they should.
However, If we as foreigners are also using everything we have to support the Koreans, who already have an established esports infrastructure to support themselves, then we will be left with nothing and no scene of our own. No viable methods to catch up to the Koreans in terms of training as we have allowed them to assimilate all our own opportunities to build up and one day compete on an even level as a group rather then the select few chosen ones that go to Korea but still can't even do shit in Code S, or A for that matter, because we are nothing compared to them.
If we invest in Koreans rather then ourselves then we won't ever be able to compete. They are getting all the opportunities and money. If you don't care about foreigners building up infrastructure and gaining the ability to compete then that's perfectly fine to bash this point of view. However if you do care about foreigners ability to compete and still don't like this point of view then your thinking is flawed.
A few people have pointed out that having Koreans move into foreign teams improves the general level of play. That seems like a good trend. Ultimately the only way foreign players/team are going to get better is through more interaction with Koreans. It's symbiosis not competition. And if esports keeps growing and money keeps flowing in then eventually it won't be necessary as the infrastructure will develop.
And as others have pointed out, it's probably a false assumption that money paid to recruit Korean players would otherwise have gone to foreign players.
On January 16 2012 21:51 mothergoose729 wrote: I don't understand what you are upset about TT1. Your blog is not very clear. The koreans chase foreigners out of korea? You don't provide much evidence for this claim. The infrastructure outside of korea is not very good? Korea has a long history of competitive esports, it only makes sense that they are ahead. Will this lead to more koreans and less foreigners in tournaments? I agree it probably will. Teams like FXO, EG, and Liquid are making major headway in both creating good infrastructure in the US and facilitating good relations between foreign teams and korean teams, at least as I understand it. What more would you like to see done? And who, if anybody, is being wronged at the moment? You say there is a lot of concerns progammers have that they are not voicing. What are these concerns? I didn't read anything in your blog that I didn't already know, nor did you suggest a solution.
"Evidence for this claim?" I guess you didn't follow the Broodwar scene that much.
He probably didn't, but as the OP is basing that solely on Ret's experience and his side of the story, yeah, there isn't a lot of evidence.
On January 16 2012 22:02 Epoch wrote: I find alot of responses in this thread odd because I understand what TT1 is saying.
Koreans use all their power to support themselves and their infrastructure in esports. As they should.
However, If we as foreigners are also using everything we have to support the Koreans, who already have an established esports infrastructure to support themselves, then we will be left with nothing and no scene of our own. No viable methods to catch up to the Koreans in terms of training as we have allowed them to assimilate all our own opportunities to build up and one day compete on an even level as a group rather then the select few chosen ones that go to Korea but still can't even do shit in Code S because we are nothing compared to them.
If we invest in Koreans rather then ourselves then we won't ever be able to compete. They are getting all the opportunities and money. If you don't care about foreigners building up infrastructure and gaining the ability to compete then that's perfectly fine to bash this point of view. However if you do care about foreigners ability to compete and still don't like this point of view then your thinking is flawed.
The OP doesn't provide any examples of how to solve the issue though. It's only complains about how hard it is for EU/US players while totally disregarding the korean point of view.
If foreigners are going to become as good they need to poach korean coaches and start team houses in EU/US, which probably won't happen as koreans are doing fine at home, don't know enough english, and foreigners are spread all over the place. Add to that the fact that foreign teams have, at best, 2-3 really good players each means that there's 5-6 teams that would need korean coaches and team houses.
On January 16 2012 20:16 Wombat_NI wrote: It's not JUST hard work that makes Koreans stronger players on average. Despite the regular pounding he gets on here Naniwa is renowned for having a monstrous work ethic. Remember when he first became a monster and destroyed an MLG with some ridiculous sets score like 24-2 or something? The guy was so far ahead of most of the foreign scene based on hard work and some latent talent, but in the end he started stagnating and acknowledged that he had to move to Korea to achieve his personal dream of being the best player in the world.
Incidentally, I don't know what the majority of TL users even want in their players anyway. Naniwa, even before 'probegate' seemed to attract his fair share of haters, but he's one of the few foreigners who seem to reach the 'standards of practice' that we demand of our pro players.
People are saying that Koreans sacrifice a ton to move into pro-houses with the only mitigating factor being that they get to stay in their home country. This is a huge, huge difference compared to what a foreigner sacrifices to move to Korea. I would be perfectly happy to sacrifice a year or two to pursue something like playing professionally if it was within my own culture/within reach of family if things go wrong. I could even envisage (if I was good which I'm not ) moving to the European mainland at a stretch.
On another point I recall Artosis and others talking about a global beta server when it first came out, and how it had latency reduction and was very playable. Why couldn't Blizzard try and do this by opening a cross-server 'pro's only' server with some kind of fee to be paid for it to make it worth their while.
As it is top pros are making out that laddering on US and EU is becoming redundant, so looking for ways for the foreign scene to improve without upping sticks and all moving to Seoul should be done.
I guarantee you that if the best possible place to be for sc2 was NA/EU, 90% of the korean progamers would be willing to pick up and move to pursue their dreams.
Also TT1, I'm not saying you're bad, but you're not A level foreigner. There's no reason to complain about your training environment when you have plenty of room to improve yourself in the foreign scene. And NA > KR latency isn't so bad that you can't practice on their servers. If you wanna QQ that you can't talk about strategies with koreans, then how is that in any way shape or form the fault of other teams picking up koreans?
On January 16 2012 20:59 KawaiiRice wrote: I read this as the thoughts of a foreign pro which seemed incredibly accurate (because read the title... "The foreign progamers perspective on esports"), yet people are reading it like TT1 is whining/begging for sympathy/wanting to get more money... wtf ~~ love u payam
Sure it is accurate but he is only stating the obvious and asking for the unattainable... to me anyways. He argues that Koreans do not sacrifice nearly as much as europeans or NA because they live in korea. Do you realize how large South Korea is? it isn't some small city where someone can take a bus ride home for a weekend, its significantly larger and a lot of the players give up social/academic lives to pursue what they want. One in a million(Polt) can attend a prestigious university and still play sc2, players like nada as well but we are talking very few numbers. A lot of people are really harsh on their criticisms but are technically right. You need to make larger sacrifices to overcome such barriers. At this point in your life if you don't think you can dedicate the time to be the best then so be it. The bar only goes up from here, never down.
Korea isn't that big. I can go from Seoul to Busan in 2 hours on a train. It really is that easy. But you won't see Koreans doing that because they understand how much they have to work. The entire work ethic of Koreans vs other foreigners in NA/EU is completely different. While working at Samsung, they told us a joke, if I was working in the States, my hours would be 9 to 5, but in Korea, my hours are from 5 to 9.
I can understand how logistically it's very hard to have the same system, but that's where the foreigners have to adapt. Whining about it and letting the gap get bigger isn't going to help. I'm not a big fan of EG, but they're taking IMO is the right steps to competing with Koreans.
On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote: Why cant we have the same type of training that they have without having to sacrifice a huge portion of our lives?
Not sure about what I'm about to say, but aren't progamers in Korea also sacrificing a huge portion of their lives to persue their dream? Most of them leave their families and friends, sacrifice their studies, just to walk down the road that is called a 'progamer'.
Granted, most of them still can visit their family and friends easier since they are located in South Korea (or even Seoul), compared to somebody from, say, europe or north america, who moves to South Korea to train. But do you even need to move to Korea to become an S-class player? If you want to practise on the ladder (and even those in team houses do ladder as practise from time to time), you should do it on the Korean server where the competition is of higher level. But you can do that comfortable from NA as well (as seen when Puma was in the EG house).
All my views have allready been expressed in some way or another. But im amazed to see how everbody accepts the servers as realms set in stone, which can never be altered. Integrated server play it's perhaps the most vital part for a blooming scene, cross pollination and exchange between communities and a sense of world wide community. I remember Blizz said they wouldn't allow private servers (and LAN...), so they clearly need to step up their shit. If the vehicle of e-Sports (to borrow that illustrius term) continues in its ragged form it will hinder the development of the game so much.
How can it be acceptable that the finals of the most prestiguous tournaments always will have the dark shadow of dropping out looming over it?
How can it be acceptable that the current set up effectively eliminates any cross-continental online tournaments?
How can it be acceptable that you should have to buy three fucking accounts just to participate in online tournaments?
How can it be acceptable that we still have the issue of lag even within servers on a game whose perquel fixed that (via private servers) years ago.
I mean, Blizz has been bickering with and bitching at KESPA for years because they want to want to dip their fingers in the pie, which they did nothing to develop. They clearly dont give two shits about e-Sports, and try to make up for it by holding blizzcon which is just a huge promo-gig for their new titles. The guy who wrote C++ or any other platform doesnt have intellectual property rights for everything developed from it. If we accept the current situation as given by Blizz, sc2 will never remain afloat in the long run. Remember the few times the computers crashed or the power went out at OSL/MSL/PL finals, and the game was called by refs - remember that fucking outrage? Any serious competititive activity should try as hard as possible to eliminate such flaws.
On January 16 2012 22:31 Jaxtyk wrote: I'm pretty sure Ret did get his chance to apply for his pro gamer license for sc1 in Korea.
I think many have already posted that he practiced under unfavorable circumstances, so "his chance" could have been better with more support or a smaller language barrier.
This might be ignorant, but I still don't understand why the gap is so big between Korea and the rest of the world.
- Money and interest in the foreign world into SC2 has been at an all time high. - Lots of players have been moving to Korea temporarily to improve. Wouldn't they sort of bring a higher game when they get back to their home countries and thus increase the level back at their own localities - The game itself has decreased the skill gap between Koreans and the rest of the world in terms of skill requirement and overall necessity for practice. - Koreans have themselves been practicing on the NA/EU ladders occasionally and even moving to foreign teams. Shouldn't that also improve the level of training non-Koreans get? - Team houses have been popping up... this hasn't been very common, but from the few which have been in existence, you would've expected some of them to improve the game of the people in them. - There are foreigners who earn a good enough living that they can afford to practice almost as much as the Koreans without having to worry about income sources (players like Destiny)
And also on the other side of things, Koreans also dedicate so much of their lives into it. Players like DRG and Losira weren't from Seoul but moved there to pursue their careers. Not too long ago (and I believe even now) a lot of Koreans don't get paid a regular salary and up till recently seldom had any tournaments they could win any money from.
Could it just be that Starcraft is just in the Korean genes?
i really dislike the op saying foreigners would have to sacrifice so much of their lifes. the thing is koreans are way better overall because THEY SACRIFICE MORE THAN OTHERS....you want to be on even foot with them and yet wanna sactifice less than they do? i smell the typical " i dont want to have koreans here because they making me having no chance at all to win a tournament, because im way more lazy than them. i want to be succesful without sacrifices" behind the message, altough im not sure...
TT1, you always come off pessimistic sounding to me. Every post ive read.
Anyhow, Uhhh its exciting for the fans. For koreans to be on foreigner teams. Besides shudnt the foreigner getto practice with their my little korean?
But yeah..if you dont think your time is worth the effort, you really only have the options of spending more time, making your time more efficient, or quitting. I guess get a players prtition for team houses?
I love your posts but at the same time after I read everything you say its always like: 'yeah so what, what are you going to do about it?'
You don't like the way SC2 is headed? I fully agree. What can I tell you? Fucking quit then. I barely play anymore, I just enjoy watching the pros go at it. I'm more happier just being a part of the community/as a fan than the stress of being a player.
You think the foreign scene is handicapped? Korean's have advantage? I fully agree. What can I tell you? Its better to stay in college, graduate, and get a real fucking job. Than the risk of trying to go pro. When only 2 pros (HuK & IdrA) have made more than 25k in Tournament winnings in NA? I'm going to laugh when a lot of these kids that drop out to try and go pro, only to continue sitting in their mom's basement thinking it will make them better.
This isn't news though?
Why don't you just go to Korea bro? You're one of the best NA players without a doubt. Just fucking go to Korea long term. Fuck even desrow is there. So maybe you're behind the curve now? How bad do you want to be the best? Do you even need to come make a blog about this? What are you trying to accomplish? Book your Korean flight ticket and move into the Gom house.
-Also on a side note, aren't you pretty good buds with KaKi? If you're looking for the NA scene to catch up to the KOR scene in the gaming house format, why not join Reign over mTw? Isn't KaKi in the Reign gaming house? Don't they have that up and going now? Sounds like a great opportunity.
On January 16 2012 19:59 Snowbear wrote: After reading this and the "golden and dragon leave slayers"-thread, I wonder if esports will actually ever become big. - Very few players make a good amount of money. The reason why salaries are not public, is because they are low. - The interest in gaming is not as high as we might think. - Organisations like NASL, MLG and GOMtv seem to have a very hard time. - Starcraft 2 is not that popular in Korea.
Basicly we see players playing 10 hours a day for.... almost nothing?
Do you guys think that players will make a good amount of money from esports in the future? Do you think things will change? Because I can't imagine it atm.
This is extremly complicated but i thought about that alot aswell. But you also have to consider, that you cant really judge how MLG is performing, only because they dismiss some people.
a HUGE portion of the players are being underpaid, the amount of money vs the amount of time we have to put into the game in order to stay competitive is let's say..... very shitty?
This is a statement I have an issue with. No one is forcing you guys to be progamers, you know that you are entering a relatively new industry and it sounds like you are already asking for handouts. "I TRY REALLY HARD, GIMME MONEY!" That's not how it works.
On January 16 2012 23:05 pdd wrote: This might be ignorant, but I still don't understand why the gap is so big between Korea and the rest of the world.
- Money and interest in the foreign world into SC2 has been at an all time high. - Lots of players have been moving to Korea temporarily to improve. Wouldn't they sort of bring a higher game when they get back to their home countries and thus increase the level back at their own localities - The game itself has decreased the skill gap between Koreans and the rest of the world in terms of skill requirement and overall necessity for practice. - Koreans have themselves been practicing on the NA/EU ladders occasionally and even moving to foreign teams. Shouldn't that also improve the level of training non-Koreans get? - Team houses have been popping up... this hasn't been very common, but from the few which have been in existence, you would've expected some of them to improve the game of the people in them. - There are foreigners who earn a good enough living that they can afford to practice almost as much as the Koreans without having to worry about income sources (players like Destiny)
And also on the other side of things, Koreans also dedicate so much of their lives into it. Players like DRG and Losira weren't from Seoul but moved there to pursue their careers. Not too long ago (and I believe even now) a lot of Koreans don't get paid a regular salary and up till recently seldom had any tournaments they could win any money from.
Could it just be that Starcraft is just in the Korean genes?
Genes/it being in the water is bullshit. Here's what two reasons I think cause the gap
- Koreans had a headstart. Coming from a deeply ingrained BW background the scene quickly developed in KR and were the first to start pro tournaments. Practising with the best makes you better so this headstart only reinforces itselfs and keeps on doing do - Foreigners aren't tackling the problem properly. You wanna be the best you need to practise with the best. I.e., in this case, go to Korea. The teamhouses are nice and all but you 1) don't practise with the best and 2) they don't follow the same structure as the Korean ones. (KR teamhouse = you have a cook and a cleaner and you sit and play SC all day. Don't want to be too assumptuous etc here but this isn't the case for the EG guys I don't believe).
On top of that it isn't beneficial for teams to send players to Korea. Mtw can boast that Dima did well in the Korean grid of HSC4 while Mouz' Morrow has nothing much to show for (yet after enough Korean training I have faith Morrow will >> Dimaga over time).
Also don't understand your points very well.
- Money and interest in the foreign world into SC2 has been at an all time high.
Yes but where is it going? I mean MLG hands out prizemoney but without having the whole of Code S play (and probably A as well) is this tournament as competitive as it needs to be?
- Lots of players have been moving to Korea temporarily to improve. Wouldn't they sort of bring a higher game when they get back to their home countries and thus increase the level back at their own localities
Dont understand this point
- The game itself has decreased the skill gap between Koreans and the rest of the world in terms of skill requirement and overall necessity for practice.
Assuming you mean "decreased from broodwar": apparently not.
- Koreans have themselves been practicing on the NA/EU ladders occasionally and even moving to foreign teams. Shouldn't that also improve the level of training non-Koreans get?
I highly doubt Nestea/MVP practise on US, and if they do it's only to explore the playstyle.
- There are foreigners who earn a good enough living that they can afford to practice almost as much as the Koreans without having to worry about income sources (players like Destiny)
If Destiny can make an income without having to be good what insentive is there. No idea why this is an argument for gap-closure.
I don't know too much about what happened in BW, although I did watch Artosis's documentary following Tyler when he was in Korea as part of a pro-team. It seemed pretty open and fair from what I saw there. It also seems like in SC2 GOMTV have gone out of their way to involve foreign players even at the expense of young Korean talent.
As far as the Korean teams go, Koreans see the foreign scene as being composed of a very few top players who are decent. It's pretty obvious that there are many young unknown Korean pro-team players who are way better than some well known foreign players. Idra, Huk, Naniwa, ok they can compete as equals. I see Desrow, Destiny, Haypro etc all heading to Korea (after not setting the foreign scene alight) for what I fear is certain doom and failure in a much harsher environment (though I hope not).
90% of foreigners would probably be better off quitting. They are never going to get respectable salaries because they aren't good enough and they can't market themselves the way the few successful foreigners have done.
No one is really taking money out of their pockets, they just aren't worth money. SC2 foreign teams have more money/interest in the game than they did BW but if it wasn't for Korean players they would probably be closing up shop eventually anyway as the skill gap increases. It's not like the foreign players are getting a raw deal here, they had a huge opportunity with SC2 that they never really had with BW, but most still can't succeed.
It can be done if you're hungry enough for it, a few foreigners are evidence of that, but no one is going to pay foreigners to be as bad as they were in BW, that's just not realistic. Foreign SC2 will die before that ever happens, it's almost to a point where the Korean players are the ones keeping afloat right now
Thats Firebathero, Korean BW progamer. He's basically annoyed that there are people who think they can just become a progamer and be successful when in fact, they have no idea what it takes.
There are a couple of points I would like to make.
1. With the expected increase of prize money and local tournaments it should help increase the infrastructure outside of Korea. The Korean model is possible because they have a high paying tournament in a centralized location. Forming a team house is possible because all the players know that they need to live in that area in order to participate in the tournament. If MLG decided to run all of its tournaments in a centralized location then as a result, team houses will pop up in that location. As it is, since all tournaments are spread across the world the extra costs associated with travel decrease the amount of funds available to pay rent for a house of 10 players.
2. Just becaues Koreans play 12 hours a day it does not mean that all players should. The reason why this is possible is becaue unlike real sports, you can play starcraft 12 hours a day. It is physically impossible to play any real sport consistantly for that long so a limitation in practice time is created. A players organization might be needed to lower the amount of time spent playing and to increase the quality of life of players since I feel that 12 hours a day, 6 days a week is ridiculous. Stephano is a good example of someone who puts in far less than what is expected of top players and has solid results. It is all about being efficient in the time spent playing.
3. Non-Korean teams need coaches. I think a big factor on why players outside of Korea are weaker than their Korean counterparts is lack of motivation and general laziness. Teams need to start seeing the value of adding a coach since I think they will only improve results. I do not think that it is necessary to have a coach who is well versed in Starcraft either. The coach just needs to organize a practice regiment, make sure players are following it, and discipline the players that are not. For example, he can set up all the practice partners for the day, gather replays of future opponents, and decide on who will make a flight or not to a tournament based on the effort put in during the weeks leading up to the event.
How can Destiny live off of streaming? Is it the numbers he gets? In which case you should be marketing your own name to up your stream numbers and gt invites to invitationals The reason why IdrA and Huk get paid so much isn't solely through winning they make sure you know who they are in Starcraft
Thats Firebathero, Korean BW progamer. He's basically annoyed that there are people who think they can just become a progamer and be successful when in fact, they have no idea what it takes.
Thats Firebathero, Korean BW progamer. He's basically annoyed that there are people who think they can just become a progamer and be successful when in fact, they have no idea what it takes.
TT1 trains 8 hours a day. Astonishing. Well... Avg. normal guy in shitty office job spends 10-12 hours a day for work (thats travel included) and has ~5 weeks of holydays a year... Oh, and his payment is also not exactly "staggering".
Hint: You also don't have "that" much free time as soon as you go for a "good" job. In fact working 8 hours/day won't bring you far no matter which job you do...
Pro-gamer is a very shitty job, you don't get paid a lot (if at all) and you have to work like a machine to be the best. Also in the western countries, pro-gamers are basically working from their home with what : 1 person to manage 5 to 10 others online ? And managers/coach are often not full time employees, hell i'm sure most of the time they don't have any contract.
This is a structural problem within the teams, look at a Korean SC2 Pro team : it looks like a real sport club, everybody practicing in the same place, with the supervision of managers and coaches, and the help of maids. You can do amasing thing at home on your own, but as long as team don't gather themselve in team houses with proper practice conditions the skill gap is never going to narrow.
Thing is, korea is a small country and it's easy to get everybody together in the same house, but when you have player from two or three different continent, even from two different countries, it's a lot harder. I think western pro-gamers have to travel ANYWAYS if they want to enjoy the best practice conditions. Doing it from home just doesn't cut it for the very vast majority of them.
Thats Firebathero, Korean BW progamer. He's basically annoyed that there are people who think they can just become a progamer and be successful when in fact, they have no idea what it takes.
i see your FBH and i counter with
Anyone can cook
Well try to become a bw progamer in korea than .
clearly you havent seen the film if thats what you took from that quote
I think the reason that SC2 koreans are treated better than foreign BW players should be completely obvious. Although it is closing, the skill gap is still incredibly tangible. The treatment they receive from teams and tournaments slants accordingly.
On January 16 2012 20:07 discobaas wrote: "they excluded us from everything because we were of no use to them" Exactly, you were, compared to them, bad players and didn't contribute to anything. This is quite the opposite in the current situation, because only Korean games and a very select few foreigner ones are worth watching.
Then the sacrifice part. What exactly is your point? Koreans also sacrifice their entire lives for a shitty house to prac in 24/7 and get no/hardly any money unless they win big tournaments, which only few can. Their only advantage is that they don't have to leave the country, because they have the best prac environment right there. Also foreigners are accepted now by koreans, so if you want to earn some money, go get better.
koreans sacrificed their lives living in their homecountrys, they were still connected with their friends and familys
I give you the homecountry part. It's a bit more demanding to go to a country where you dont know the language. The last time I saw my family was on christmas. Before that sometime in summer. Why? Because I moved away form my hometown when I started to study. I left my friends behind, I left my family behind. I see see them 3-4 times a year.
I also have friends from school who studied abroad which I didnt see for years. I also have friends from university who took 1 year to study in a foreign country. All those people left behind friends & family and moved to a country where they didnt necessarily knew the language.
It's NOT normal to stay in one place for your entire life. If you want stay with your family & your friends - then you have to sacrifice other things. If you want to have success in certain uncommon fields - you have to sacrifice friends & family. You can't have both - or you're lucky
TT1 you just get murdered every time I see you post lol. Why do you do it to your self? I think everyone just wants to see the best players. Korea may be the best place to train but the real money seems to be on the foreign side of things as it stands right now. When Kespa makes the cross over I'm sure the Korean scene will boom.
On January 16 2012 20:07 discobaas wrote: "they excluded us from everything because we were of no use to them" Exactly, you were, compared to them, bad players and didn't contribute to anything. This is quite the opposite in the current situation, because only Korean games and a very select few foreigner ones are worth watching.
Then the sacrifice part. What exactly is your point? Koreans also sacrifice their entire lives for a shitty house to prac in 24/7 and get no/hardly any money unless they win big tournaments, which only few can. Their only advantage is that they don't have to leave the country, because they have the best prac environment right there. Also foreigners are accepted now by koreans, so if you want to earn some money, go get better.
koreans sacrificed their lives living in their homecountrys, they were still connected with their friends and familys
The very first professional gamers in Korea sacrificed their financial stability and lived in horrendeous situations to persue the dream of professional gaming. I am well aware that you are accustomed to the various anecdotes that revolve about Artosis' beginning years in Korea regarding that. Through this sacrifice, they managed to established the professional gaming scene that now flourishes in Korea (guess why all people still love Boxer even when he played shit?).
So, do gamers in Korea have it much better in their scene? Yes of course, but because they earned it!
tl;dr: if you think that western gamers have hard times against the recent onslaught of Korean gamers, try thinking back to the origin of Korean gaming. you'll realize that western gamers don't have it as bad after all.
This post and so many of the replies here makes me pretty sad for some reason.
Maybe because I can read it how TT1 intended it to sound (him voicing truthful concern) unlike what majority of people seem to read it (him whining/complaining)
TT1 this is only a problem because of 1 thing, which is a lack of cross-realm. Foreign BW players have no problems playing on Fish and getting great practice there.
Plus, do you think becoming a pro at anything isn't going to require a sacrifice? If you really are "going pro" you are basing your entire life around that one thing. If you think you can be a pro and still do other things then you need to grow up.
This thread reads to me similar to when people who want to be really good at programming become upset because they can't go to ITT Tech or whatever, get a degree, and land a job in Nowheresville, OH. Sorry, but sometimes the career choice you make necessitates that you make certain really difficult choices or you're not going to be at the top of the heap. I'm sure the people born in Europe who want to play Basketball at the highest level or the people in Japan who want to play in the MLB can sympathize with your plight. It sucks.
At the same time, you can change things to at least start building something here. But how will you know what to build if you don't fully understand why their technique works and then find ways to make it even better?
I don't know how EG's house (and others) team house is structured, so I won't comment. If it's like the Kr style of training then good - at least they're going the right direction. The only thing is that you need a series of people to 'seed' things. If you have 10 - 12 really good, highly trained people with a coach who knows how to make it work then I bet you can get it going. Sending one guy to Korea to train in the oGs house and then expecting them to fix all of your issues seems certainly unrealistic.
To be honest, the big problem is the progaming houses. They're way too cheap and effective to be possible to compete against. It's great for (some)Koreans who make it but sucks big time for eSport as a whole. The sooner they go away the better for everyone and that's why I'm excited to see players like Nestea and MVP(hopefully MC as well) being successful while treating progaming as a profession and not as a way of life. It gives some hope for the future.
i actually touched on this point in my initial post.. the only way to stay competitive would be to move to korea but there are certain contrainsts that make that sort of a commitment too much of a high risk thing to do
I guess the real question is: "How bad do you want it?" I don't follow the scene too closely, but I've read of American soccer players who take a big risk by moving to Europe to pursue their dream of becoming elite futballers. How is moving to Korea any different?
I'm old enough to have chased my dreams, achieved some of them and given up on others. The loftiest of my dreams required more sacrifice than I was willing to give. I think it's an important question current and aspiring pros should ask themselves. "How much am I willing to sacrifice to be competitive (or the best)?" Understandably, you don't want to sacrifice your life here in the west. But the bottom line is this: to be the best, one has to train with the best. European basketball players come to the NBA to enhance their skills, so too will foreigners have to go to Korea to be better gamers. No matter what, great sacrifices will have to be made.
Thats Firebathero, Korean BW progamer. He's basically annoyed that there are people who think they can just become a progamer and be successful when in fact, they have no idea what it takes.
i see your FBH and i counter with
Anyone can cook
Well try to become a bw progamer in korea than .
clearly you havent seen the film if thats what you took from that quote
"In the past, I have made no secret of my disdain for Chef Gusteau's famous motto: Anyone can cook. But I realize, only now do I truly understand what he meant. Not everyone can become a great artist, but a great artist can come from anywhere."
I didn't even watch the movie, but that quote got me curious.
i actually touched on this point in my initial post.. the only way to stay competitive would be to move to korea but there are certain contrainsts that make that sort of a commitment too much of a high risk thing to do
I guess the real question is: "How bad do you want it?" I don't follow the scene too closely, but I've read of American soccer players who take a big risk by moving to Europe to pursue their dream of becoming elite futballers. How is moving to Korea any different?
I'm old enough to have chased my dreams, achieved some of them and given up on others. The loftiest of my dreams required more sacrifice than I was willing to give. I think it's an important question current and aspiring pros should ask themselves. "How much am I willing to sacrifice to be competitive (or the best)?" Understandably, you don't want to sacrifice your life here in the west. But the bottom line is this: to be the best, one has to train with the best. European basketball players come to the NBA to enhance their skills, so too will foreigners have to go to Korea to be better gamers. No matter what, great sacrifices will have to be made.
Amid the 7 pages of "omg stop whining" and "TT1 ur so bad!" bandwagoning this stood out to me:
On January 16 2012 21:32 KawaiiRice wrote: well I'm saying if you read it from just his perspective (which the title basically tells you) Obviously if you think about it in the overall scheme of SC2 it's incredibly whiny and stuff as everyone has pointed out but TT1 is giving his point of view as a pro... which to be honest I'm not sure why he posted it here but payam likes sharing his views with TL ... and I think it's backfired every single time lolol
I agree, TT1 ought to be able to give his opinions without being insulted every way imaginable. He may not be a top skilled player, but I would think TT1 is in a better position to judge on the viewpoints of pro players than 95% of the arm chair e-sports commentators in this thread.
I also do think there is something to this; maybe not quite to the extent that he claims though. The fact that Koreans are still looked at as vastly superior players to foreigners--despite players like Naniwa and Idra stomping their way through top Koreans at MLG and Stephano making zerg look OP--I think provides a hint of some of the inequalities that may exist in the SC2 world and I think there is a real discussion to be had over this. That being said this is a terrible way to frame this discussion.
If you just leave the foreigner/Koreans out of this conversation, you're basically saying you have a problem because players who drop everything in their lives are getting more money, better treatment etc?
People practicing in Korea are going to get more out of their time than people elsewhere, that seems to be the root of the problem since the average skill level of people in Masters/GM are so much higher than the foreigners. I don't see how this can be solved.
Being a fan of SC for years now, I never got into the whole Koreans vs the world thing. I got no problem with better players getting more money.
I see this post like Catz post about growing regional esports. I don't care about race, just got no sympathy for people who aren't willing to work as hard as the next guy.
On January 16 2012 19:54 Seraphone wrote: Koreans work harder, play better therefore deserve more money. Why should you be paid less for doing a worse job?
if i practice 8 hours a day on na and a korean practices 8 hours a day in a team house + on the korea ladder, whos gonna benifit more from their training? the answer is pretty obvious, both players put in the same amount of time but one is gonna benifit MUCH more than the other, the problem lies within the western esports scene as a whole and not with the player
i actually touched on this point in my initial post.. the only way to stay competitive would be to move to korea but there are certain contrainsts that make that sort of a commitment too much of a high risk thing to do
What is the risk to you that is not a risk to the Korean who does the same? You risk future education/employment opportunities... But so do they.
I understand the cost. The sacrifice. You are moving to a foreign country and losing the direct support of your family/friends. But you don't lose touch with them completely. And there is sacrifice to be made to make it to the top, regardless of what industry you are trying to make it in, and particularly in competitive industries/sports.
The fact that you have to move to a certain place to train and remain competitive is not exclusive to the SC scene. Sorry, but you guys really need to suck it up. In a young industry like this, average pro's just arent going to get the kind of money you want.
For alot of foreign players its extremely hard to drop everything in our lives just so that we can move to korea in order to keep up with them practice-wise. Why cant we have the same type of training that they have without having to sacrifice a huge portion of our lives?
I read this as "Koreans don't have as much responsibilities as Americans." I'll bet they have just as much responsibilities as us. If can look me straight in the eyes and say, "I practice 8 hours a day and get paid x amount, and a player from korea plays less and makes x amount more" then ill agree with you. It may be true in some cases but the people who aren't fully dedicated to the game will fall sooner rather than later.
Also I think that the players that are the most personable and appreciative of they support they are given to play a game as a full time job are the people I would want to represent the sc2 scene.
i actually touched on this point in my initial post.. the only way to stay competitive would be to move to korea but there are certain contrainsts that make that sort of a commitment too much of a high risk thing to do
I guess the real question is: "How bad do you want it?" I don't follow the scene too closely, but I've read of American soccer players who take a big risk by moving to Europe to pursue their dream of becoming elite futballers. How is moving to Korea any different?
I'm old enough to have chased my dreams, achieved some of them and given up on others. The loftiest of my dreams required more sacrifice than I was willing to give. I think it's an important question current and aspiring pros should ask themselves. "How much am I willing to sacrifice to be competitive (or the best)?" Understandably, you don't want to sacrifice your life here in the west. But the bottom line is this: to be the best, one has to train with the best. European basketball players come to the NBA to enhance their skills, so too will foreigners have to go to Korea to be better gamers. No matter what, great sacrifices will have to be made.
I think most foreigners that are progamers (or are working their way up) would agree with TT1s original post...dunno why people were mindlessly bashing TT1, he has good points. Though, i disagree about the sacrifice thing - there's just as many that do sacrifice as much or more than foreigners to play professionally. Also, I think most foreigners are lazy in terms of practice/work ethic in general.
Either way...why even focus on korean players getting teams, when imo a bigger issue is why are casters being so overpaid compared to the players that are even making their job possible in the first place? I see very few players gone caster or casters that make it big that actively try to find ways to help out the player population...they just mostly seem to get their fame and then go on from there with their own personal journey forgetting that the only reason they can cast is cause there are a kajillion players trying to make it up the ranks and playing ggs.
If people wanna get out pitchforks, find out how much casters are being paid compared to prize pools...pretty sure it's crazy...casters get a guaranteed paycheck, players fighting over scraps in comparison to the caster paychecks...
Obviously casters are important on a large scale to get more sc2 community attention, but not so important to the point that they should be massively paid more than players currently are...that is just wrong.
On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote: and where its heading,
Seeing these x-korean leaves x- team in search of a foreign team announcements are starting to become customary these days, i feel like as a foreign player alot of our interests aren't being heard because typically foreign progamers don't voice their issues as much as they should, we just keep the talk between ourselves which doesn't accomplish anything and tbh i feel like sooner or later were going to need an organisation that can represent our interests just so we can legitimize the industry because as it is alot of us are getting fed the shit-end of the stick
now to get to the main issue, I'm all for the globalization of esports and as an sc1 player ive always looked up to the korean players and dreamt of being able to play competitively in korea someday but ill be honest.. ive always wondered why foreign players were never offered the same type of treatment in sc1 that the koreans are currently being offered in sc2, good on them if all the teams and the fans are welcoming them with open arms but afaik when ret tried to become a progamer they chased him out of korea and never gave him an opportunity to do so, they excluded us from everything because we were of no use to them
now to be fair i don't know if the reason why we were ostracized so much from their scene had something to do with kespa, the teams/players or if it had to do with something else but in any case thats not what im here to talk about, what i wanted to voice were a few issues from the players perspesctive
I know as fans u probably wont care much about this because u just want to see high class players representing ur favourite teams(regardless of where they come from) but this is an extremely sensitive issue to the players. Any potential $$ that is going to a korean player is potential money that isn't going to our players, a HUGE portion of the players are being underpaid, the amount of money vs the amount of time we have to put into the game in order to stay competitive is let's say..... very shitty? On top of that we can't get the same type of training that the koreans are getting because our infrastructure fucking blows, now all of a sudden the korean players are saying to themselves "hmmm, not only can we rape all their tournaments but we can probably take over all their teams aswell", whats going to happen to us 5-10 years down the line?
For alot of foreign players its extremely hard to drop everything in our lives just so that we can move to korea in order to keep up with them practice-wise. Why cant we have the same type of training that they have without having to sacrifice a huge portion of our lives? The only foreigner players who wont fall behind the koreans skill wise are the ones who will be willing to sacrifice a huge part of their lives so they can practice over there and alot of those players are either a) young or b) are already financially set, that type of sacrifice wont impact them as much as say a top european or north american foreign player whos in his early-midd twenties and isnt getting paid/isnt willing to sacrifice his life as much as those players which makes that type of sacrifice an extremely high risk thing to do
if things dont change then 3 years from now the high level european/na players are going to live off of their team salarys/stream while playing the occasional online tournament and the skillgap between them and the koreans is going to grow so much that they'll end up being a non factor in tournaments, that being said ull still have the odd 4-5 well paid foreigners practicing in korea who are going to give them a run for their money at each tournament(however theyll fail 95% of the time simply because theyre outnumbered), if ur satisfied with that then im happy for u but unfortunately alot of talented players will never achieve their true potential and we'll never get to know what type of player they would have turned into which to me would be the greatest tragedy in esports
TT,
I thought we had this discussion before? It comes down to sacrifice. The Koreans who went pro had to make similar sacrifices as well.
The world of RTS esport is an incredible thing. Unfortunately it didn't really take flight until after WCIII globally as they saw what happened with BW. You know how it was back then. You were lucky to get paid and usually it would be coming from one donor (lol). It's definitely made progress and yes, you guys will always be underpaid sadly unless you become centralized. However, even if a player's association were to form. There's just so many young guys out there willing to play. Of course people want to see the biggest names and best players compete. Even with a union you guys could possibly get the shaft. Then there's team organizations and unfortunately lots of the international teams don't really share the same goal(s), so even that's a tough sell. Unlike KeSPA where they all share the same goal. Sure, we had WEMADE Fox with several different divisions yet they were KeSPA sanctioned. It's really not as simple and straight forward as many would be led to believe.
The question really becomes. What will happen when KeSPA does get involved? That's the question we all have to ask ourselves. We have no idea what will transpire. You know how they are though. They like to reign with an iron noose. Will we be seeing as many Koreans switch over to International teams? Who knows? What we do know is they like protecting Korean culture and the other Korean teams have been struggling to find sponsorship. Not really a good omen. They definitely need new money coming in though.
KeSPA has no-ill will towards foreigners. You saw what transpired in Ret's situation. Just a shitty situation and it was miscommunication. Guy thought he was stealing reps when he was doing no such thing. That's what happens with a language barrier. That and you know how Korean's view 'looks.' You can never get complacent with your standing and have to get busy all the time. That's why they are still winning a lot of tournaments and getting good results. Hard work; hard work and never stop. You have to go where the hotbed lies and this is no exception. In fact, it was the very same with BW only you had to be given the golden ticket or climb through Courage X_X
Koreans make a lot of sacrifice too, only they're living IN the hotbed so to speak, so of course they have an advantage.
With all that hoopla out of the way I'm going to leave free agents this advice:
- Before signing any contract with an organization (and this is truly what you want to do) and looking at the guaranteed money. Ask yourself:
1) what am I going to get out of this? 2) room for growth? what tools do they have to accommodate my needs? (Includes training facilities/players)
You can always make more money later, but the first thing you have to focus on is yourself. If you think you can improve significantly under a team opposed to just signing the damn contract like many players do without proper legal counsel or what I like to call taking the money and run... then do so. You have to find the right team for you. Other players need to have the right hunger as well, or else it probably won't turn out the way you expected.
On January 17 2012 08:55 avilo wrote: Either way...why even focus on korean players getting teams, when imo a bigger issue is why are casters being so overpaid compared to the players that are even making their job possible in the first place?
Self-important.
I am interested in 1st) The game (I could happily watch any level of play because the game is an interesting one) 2nd) The tournament (There is a story that goes a long with players progression through a tournament) 3rd) The casting (Good casting makes it better, bad casting I would rather watch with no sound) 4th) The players (Sometimes there are people that play with an interesting style or they have a good personality)
I think everyone involved and even the people who watch have made it possible for a few very good players to earn their living. Not the other way around.
I actually think TT1 has some valid points about the foreign scene never really developing as everyone hopes because of a self-sustained 'Korean dominance' effect. But I sincerely think that most of what he said and other people mumble about is very much tied to the usual 'quality of life' and 'work standards' BS -- they think checking in at work everyday for exactly 8 hours 5 days a week is fine. Turns out, if you want to be really good at something, or make something i.e. a company (or progaming) really explode you have to put your blood in it.
Thats Firebathero, Korean BW progamer. He's basically annoyed that there are people who think they can just become a progamer and be successful when in fact, they have no idea what it takes.
i see your FBH and i counter with
Anyone can cook
Well try to become a bw progamer in korea than .
clearly you havent seen the film if thats what you took from that quote
Film and reality do not coincide in my opinion , One deals with a fantasy and one deals with reality . I don't need to watch a film to prove FBH point . Like i said if you believe what you can do in the movie than why not go to korea and get a pro gaming license and prove me wrong ?
First off, I respect TT1 for representing the foreign scene so many times. It is a huge commitment or as TT1 put it "sacrifice" to make. The players in Korea have far more support and a better infrastructure to grow as a pro player. Meanwhile, outside of Korea or at least in the NA, there is very little to motivate a progamer to "drop everything" in pursuit of a fruitful eSports career. I can understand your frustration and concern regarding the Korean players now migrating to the growing "international scene" and making it even harder for the foreign hopefuls to win the NA/EU tournaments. I can only hope that the Korean's that join teams outside of Korea are willing to truly help their teammates grow as players and not just "shoplift the pooty" (so to speak).
I won't comment on the parts of your post concerning Korean dominance etc... But I will comment on your complaints about not being paid enough:
I can understand people complaining about not being paid enough to work a 40 hour week as a checkout chick or a waitress or something, but the very fact that you are playing a video game as your 'job' simply diminishes the complaints you're making.
The fact that you are even being paid is testament to how far the scene has come. Pre-SC2 you wouldn't even have this opportunity, and truth is you probably played multiple hours a day anyway purely for enjoyment. It's fine to think you deserve more, but the tone of your post seems to lack of lot of perspective.
As well as that, you are being paid to do what you love. That's an opportunity everyone dreams of, and you're whinging about it? I play music for hours every day already. If I was given a chance to do that AND earn even $1 an hour for playing I would be fucking stoked.
Finally, the people paying you aren't running a charity, they're running a business. Why would they pay you a large sum if you're not kicking ass andgetting their name out there? You playing SC2 for 8 hours a day actually isn't productive to them at all if you're not winning, so why pay you (well)? It's like paying a law student to study 8 hours a day with no guarantees that they'll graduate, or, if they do graduate, no guarantees that they'll provide greater benefit to your company than other graduates.
I could go on about a few other things, but you just need to get it into your head that your 'job' isn't worth shit all until you start posting results. It's just the reality of the situation.
Thats Firebathero, Korean BW progamer. He's basically annoyed that there are people who think they can just become a progamer and be successful when in fact, they have no idea what it takes.
i see your FBH and i counter with
Anyone can cook but can anyone become the top chef of a 5 star restaurant? Highly dubious.
I think that the problem that leads to this is that the koreans are so good in the first place. And this is inevitable, as almost the entirety of Eastern E-Sports is located in only 1 city. Western E-Sports is spread throughout the entire world, and already behind in infrastructure. Teams like ReIGN and EG are doing the right thing, making teamhouses and such, however it is still essentially impossible for a western pro-gamer to get into this kind of environment, whereas Koreans only need to move maybe a few blocks to find one, or to a nearby city at the very worst. Anyway, a lot of these problems can be solved by Western teamhouses, which we are trending towards, and a bigger overall Western scene for more skilled players and better practice.
Reading StarStruck's post inspired this thought: If foreigners form a big union and refuse to be underpaid etc etc etc, it seems to me like that would just suffocate the scene and then no one would get paid. The system that's in place, what they're actually able to give and support, does not exist. You want to play games for a living? Welcome to the year 2000, when Boxer and every other progamer lived in a shoebox and ate expired ramen to make that lifestyle possible. Whoever wants this infrastructure outside Korea is gonna have to live a similar way until people start caring about what they do. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was the Korean's eSports infrastructure. Why should people start building practice houses an Ocean away from where the actual crowds gather to watch games in person? It makes no sense what you are asking for.
I think the thing missing from the post is that Koreans are joining foreign teams so they DONT HAVE to practice like Koreans do and still get rewarded.
The infrastructure doesn't exist in the US because "sacrificing my life" isn't in the foreign players vocabulary.
Alot of the korean pros come from poorer backgrounds and are willing to do whatever it takes to succeed. Average Korean player plays more than 8 hours per day, and does it properly making notes and adjusting strategies to the second.
They don't get a solid income from this, but they increase their chances. Alot of the foreign pros play all their games on stream, and other than a select few, I dont see them analysing their own play properly and taking notes and adjusting to try to make a build work which generally means they aren't practicing properly regardless of who they are practicing with.
On January 16 2012 23:05 pdd wrote: This might be ignorant, but I still don't understand why the gap is so big between Korea and the rest of the world.
- Money and interest in the foreign world into SC2 has been at an all time high. - Lots of players have been moving to Korea temporarily to improve. Wouldn't they sort of bring a higher game when they get back to their home countries and thus increase the level back at their own localities - The game itself has decreased the skill gap between Koreans and the rest of the world in terms of skill requirement and overall necessity for practice. - Koreans have themselves been practicing on the NA/EU ladders occasionally and even moving to foreign teams. Shouldn't that also improve the level of training non-Koreans get? - Team houses have been popping up... this hasn't been very common, but from the few which have been in existence, you would've expected some of them to improve the game of the people in them. - There are foreigners who earn a good enough living that they can afford to practice almost as much as the Koreans without having to worry about income sources (players like Destiny)
And also on the other side of things, Koreans also dedicate so much of their lives into it. Players like DRG and Losira weren't from Seoul but moved there to pursue their careers. Not too long ago (and I believe even now) a lot of Koreans don't get paid a regular salary and up till recently seldom had any tournaments they could win any money from.
Could it just be that Starcraft is just in the Korean genes?
Genes/it being in the water is bullshit. Here's what two reasons I think cause the gap
- Koreans had a headstart. Coming from a deeply ingrained BW background the scene quickly developed in KR and were the first to start pro tournaments. Practising with the best makes you better so this headstart only reinforces itselfs and keeps on doing do - Foreigners aren't tackling the problem properly. You wanna be the best you need to practise with the best. I.e., in this case, go to Korea. The teamhouses are nice and all but you 1) don't practise with the best and 2) they don't follow the same structure as the Korean ones. (KR teamhouse = you have a cook and a cleaner and you sit and play SC all day. Don't want to be too assumptuous etc here but this isn't the case for the EG guys I don't believe).
On top of that it isn't beneficial for teams to send players to Korea. Mtw can boast that Dima did well in the Korean grid of HSC4 while Mouz' Morrow has nothing much to show for (yet after enough Korean training I have faith Morrow will >> Dimaga over time).
Also don't understand your points very well.
- Money and interest in the foreign world into SC2 has been at an all time high.
Yes but where is it going? I mean MLG hands out prizemoney but without having the whole of Code S play (and probably A as well) is this tournament as competitive as it needs to be?
- Lots of players have been moving to Korea temporarily to improve. Wouldn't they sort of bring a higher game when they get back to their home countries and thus increase the level back at their own localities
Dont understand this point
- The game itself has decreased the skill gap between Koreans and the rest of the world in terms of skill requirement and overall necessity for practice.
Assuming you mean "decreased from broodwar": apparently not.
- Koreans have themselves been practicing on the NA/EU ladders occasionally and even moving to foreign teams. Shouldn't that also improve the level of training non-Koreans get?
I highly doubt Nestea/MVP practise on US, and if they do it's only to explore the playstyle.
- There are foreigners who earn a good enough living that they can afford to practice almost as much as the Koreans without having to worry about income sources (players like Destiny)
If Destiny can make an income without having to be good what insentive is there. No idea why this is an argument for gap-closure.
I agree completely with your second point pholon about foreigners not tackling the problem properly. I know like 99% of foreigners are pretty lazy when compared to koreans. At least any of the guys I see with any talent aren't putting enough into the game to get to the level where huk and idra are (which they mass practiced for). And the rare few who are putting in TONS of hard work may be doing incorrectly and not getting the most out of it.
I think the reason why there is the skill gap etc is the same reason Canada is so dominant in hockey. It's simply more popular here. I guarantee you if little americans and europeans ALL grew up with SC2 on their televisions, and all the little boys had aspirations to grow up and be a progamer then we'd dominate ez pz.
This is cause there would be more competition, a better infrastructure to grow from, and more talent to draw from. People would be training sc2 so early and so intensely with wonderful training environment designed to optimize their growth and abilities etc. Then it'd just snowball.
Countries are the best at the things that are the most popular there, and they're the most popular there because the countries are so good at it.
On January 17 2012 14:17 FXOpen wrote: I think the thing missing from the post is that Koreans are joining foreign teams so they DONT HAVE to practice like Koreans do and still get rewarded.
The infrastructure doesn't exist in the US because "sacrificing my life" isn't in the foreign players vocabulary.
Alot of the korean pros come from poorer backgrounds and are willing to do whatever it takes to succeed. Average Korean player plays more than 8 hours per day, and does it properly making notes and adjusting strategies to the second.
They don't get a solid income from this, but they increase their chances. Alot of the foreign pros play all their games on stream, and other than a select few, I dont see them analysing their own play properly and taking notes and adjusting to try to make a build work which generally means they aren't practicing properly regardless of who they are practicing with.
I would do ANYTHING to just have the chance to sacrifice my life to be a pro. Unfortunately that is quite difficult when you don't already have the chance to live in a pro house as a B teamer or something. Or even have access to the Korean ladder without a decent ping because of your location.
Tons of players with a shit ton of potential aren't even being given chances because it's better to toss a few dollars at a mediocre Korean over a foreigner who hasn't had the chance to practice in a decent environment.
On January 17 2012 14:17 FXOpen wrote: I think the thing missing from the post is that Koreans are joining foreign teams so they DONT HAVE to practice like Koreans do and still get rewarded.
The infrastructure doesn't exist in the US because "sacrificing my life" isn't in the foreign players vocabulary.
Alot of the korean pros come from poorer backgrounds and are willing to do whatever it takes to succeed. Average Korean player plays more than 8 hours per day, and does it properly making notes and adjusting strategies to the second.
They don't get a solid income from this, but they increase their chances. Alot of the foreign pros play all their games on stream, and other than a select few, I dont see them analysing their own play properly and taking notes and adjusting to try to make a build work which generally means they aren't practicing properly regardless of who they are practicing with.
This!
While I agree that the Korean scene has an advantage monetarily, that shouldn't stop Foreigners from practicing properly. Unfortunately, the majority of foreigners I've been in contact with, they just Ladder Warrior all day.
There are a ton of problems with Laddering, especially on NA, but quite simply, it's bad practice. In fact, laddering on NA instead of actually practicing in customs or against other pros is counterproductive. You can get away with some really stupid shit, even at the top MMRs of GM on NA... which will only help you develop bad habits / builds / mechanics.
TT1, you want monetary infrastructure? Good, that is a good goal to aim for, but first you need to find someone willing to shell out some money, and nobody in their right mind is going to give their hard earned money to a bunch of dudes who play on the ladder all day and have never had a solid week of practice in their life.
My advice to anyone considering going pro (or anyone who already considers themself a pro), ACT like a PROFESSIONAL and take your PROFESSION seriously... This is not directed at anyone in particular, simply at the foreign scene as a whole. Perhaps if the foreign gamers start practicing more and laddering less, and focusing more on improving than winning ladder games... perhaps then people will take them seriously.
On January 17 2012 14:17 FXOpen wrote: I think the thing missing from the post is that Koreans are joining foreign teams so they DONT HAVE to practice like Koreans do and still get rewarded.
The infrastructure doesn't exist in the US because "sacrificing my life" isn't in the foreign players vocabulary.
Alot of the korean pros come from poorer backgrounds and are willing to do whatever it takes to succeed. Average Korean player plays more than 8 hours per day, and does it properly making notes and adjusting strategies to the second.
They don't get a solid income from this, but they increase their chances. Alot of the foreign pros play all their games on stream, and other than a select few, I dont see them analysing their own play properly and taking notes and adjusting to try to make a build work which generally means they aren't practicing properly regardless of who they are practicing with.
This!
While I agree that the Korean scene has an advantage monetarily, that shouldn't stop Foreigners from practicing properly. Unfortunately, the majority of foreigners I've been in contact with, they just Ladder Warrior all day.
There are a ton of problems with Laddering, especially on NA, but quite simply, it's bad practice. In fact, laddering on NA instead of actually practicing in customs or against other pros is counterproductive. You can get away with some really stupid shit, even at the top MMRs of GM on NA... which will only help you develop bad habits / builds / mechanics.
TT1, you want monetary infrastructure? Good, that is a good goal to aim for, but first you need to find someone willing to shell out some money, and nobody in their right mind is going to give their hard earned money to a bunch of dudes who play on the ladder all day and have never had a solid week of practice in their life.
My advice to anyone considering going pro (or anyone who already considers themself a pro), ACT like a PROFESSIONAL and take your PROFESSION seriously... This is not directed at anyone in particular, simply at the foreign scene as a whole. Perhaps if the foreign gamers start practicing more and laddering less, and focusing more on improving than winning ladder games... perhaps then people will take them seriously.
Where do I find these good practice partners willing to play 8+ hours of customs every day? =/
On January 17 2012 14:17 FXOpen wrote: I think the thing missing from the post is that Koreans are joining foreign teams so they DONT HAVE to practice like Koreans do and still get rewarded.
The infrastructure doesn't exist in the US because "sacrificing my life" isn't in the foreign players vocabulary.
Alot of the korean pros come from poorer backgrounds and are willing to do whatever it takes to succeed. Average Korean player plays more than 8 hours per day, and does it properly making notes and adjusting strategies to the second.
They don't get a solid income from this, but they increase their chances. Alot of the foreign pros play all their games on stream, and other than a select few, I dont see them analysing their own play properly and taking notes and adjusting to try to make a build work which generally means they aren't practicing properly regardless of who they are practicing with.
This!
While I agree that the Korean scene has an advantage monetarily, that shouldn't stop Foreigners from practicing properly. Unfortunately, the majority of foreigners I've been in contact with, they just Ladder Warrior all day.
There are a ton of problems with Laddering, especially on NA, but quite simply, it's bad practice. In fact, laddering on NA instead of actually practicing in customs or against other pros is counterproductive. You can get away with some really stupid shit, even at the top MMRs of GM on NA... which will only help you develop bad habits / builds / mechanics.
TT1, you want monetary infrastructure? Good, that is a good goal to aim for, but first you need to find someone willing to shell out some money, and nobody in their right mind is going to give their hard earned money to a bunch of dudes who play on the ladder all day and have never had a solid week of practice in their life.
My advice to anyone considering going pro (or anyone who already considers themself a pro), ACT like a PROFESSIONAL and take your PROFESSION seriously... This is not directed at anyone in particular, simply at the foreign scene as a whole. Perhaps if the foreign gamers start practicing more and laddering less, and focusing more on improving than winning ladder games... perhaps then people will take them seriously.
Where do I find these good practice partners willing to play 8+ hours of customs every day? =/
Join KT Rolster B team roster and your wish is full filled.
Instead of writing this blog, TT1 should have made a video....like Catz! and called it TT1 talks about home grown esports, sequel to Cat'z video. That would have been baller.
I think the reason why there is the skill gap etc is the same reason Canada is so dominant in hockey. It's simply more popular here. I guarantee you if little americans and europeans ALL grew up with SC2 on their televisions, and all the little boys had aspirations to grow up and be a progamer then we'd dominate ez pz.
I think this point is very important. For a sporting analogy - why is New Zealand so dominant at rugby? Of the top teams we have the smallest player pool (much smaller than England or France, South Africa or Australia). Yet we have an approx 84% win ratio over the last FIFTEEN years, and 75%+ over the last 100.
The answers are that: a) Those NZ kids that do play begin doing so at around age 5 and are developing skills from then, compared to English and French players who (on average) start at secondary school. and b) we are so small and shit at most other things that it is a national tragedy if we lose at rugby because its the one thing we're any good at. So the desire and passion from the players is higher.
I think both factors are analogous to Korea in SC2. They get the skills ingrained earlier, and they seem to care more about winning.
However, the All Blacks still lose, and plenty of great players come up from elsewhere. There is no need for doom and gloom, nor to even out the playing field.
On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote: Why cant we have the same type of training that they have without having to sacrifice a huge portion of our lives?
On January 17 2012 14:17 FXOpen wrote: I think the thing missing from the post is that Koreans are joining foreign teams so they DONT HAVE to practice like Koreans do and still get rewarded.
The infrastructure doesn't exist in the US because "sacrificing my life" isn't in the foreign players vocabulary.
Alot of the korean pros come from poorer backgrounds and are willing to do whatever it takes to succeed. Average Korean player plays more than 8 hours per day, and does it properly making notes and adjusting strategies to the second.
They don't get a solid income from this, but they increase their chances. Alot of the foreign pros play all their games on stream, and other than a select few, I dont see them analysing their own play properly and taking notes and adjusting to try to make a build work which generally means they aren't practicing properly regardless of who they are practicing with.
I would do ANYTHING to just have the chance to sacrifice my life to be a pro. Unfortunately that is quite difficult when you don't already have the chance to live in a pro house as a B teamer or something. Or even have access to the Korean ladder without a decent ping because of your location.
Tons of players with a shit ton of potential aren't even being given chances because it's better to toss a few dollars at a mediocre Korean over a foreigner who hasn't had the chance to practice in a decent environment.
Dude, if your skill level isn't high enough to get noticed on NA/EU and join a decent team, it certainly isn't good enough for Korea. None of the players on the proteams (either korean or foreign) were like "Hey, im masters. Can i join your team?". There are enough of those people around. It has always been about showing skill and then getting picked up. I can bet you that any current korean proteam player has either come from a prior highly skilled RTS setting (bw or wc3 pro) or thoroughly impressed on the ladder - enough to make a name for themselves. For instance, place highly in the weekly cups on a regular basis and you'll get your chance. I get the fact that its easier for koreans to get good practise and hence get good, but the skill roof where it really matters is way higher than low/mid masters.
Your blog/argument is one of the reasons I'm in Korea. And It won't get better, bw teams are switching. A year or 2 and the foreign scene will be obselete/sad TT
On January 17 2012 14:17 FXOpen wrote: I think the thing missing from the post is that Koreans are joining foreign teams so they DONT HAVE to practice like Koreans do and still get rewarded.
The infrastructure doesn't exist in the US because "sacrificing my life" isn't in the foreign players vocabulary.
Alot of the korean pros come from poorer backgrounds and are willing to do whatever it takes to succeed. Average Korean player plays more than 8 hours per day, and does it properly making notes and adjusting strategies to the second.
They don't get a solid income from this, but they increase their chances. Alot of the foreign pros play all their games on stream, and other than a select few, I dont see them analysing their own play properly and taking notes and adjusting to try to make a build work which generally means they aren't practicing properly regardless of who they are practicing with.
I would do ANYTHING to just have the chance to sacrifice my life to be a pro. Unfortunately that is quite difficult when you don't already have the chance to live in a pro house as a B teamer or something. Or even have access to the Korean ladder without a decent ping because of your location.
Tons of players with a shit ton of potential aren't even being given chances because it's better to toss a few dollars at a mediocre Korean over a foreigner who hasn't had the chance to practice in a decent environment.
Dude, if your skill level isn't high enough to get noticed on NA/EU and join a decent team, it certainly isn't good enough for Korea. None of the players on the proteams (either korean or foreign) were like "Hey, im masters. Can i join your team?". There are enough of those people around. It has always been about showing skill and then getting picked up. I can bet you that any current korean proteam player has either come from a prior highly skilled RTS setting (bw or wc3 pro) or thoroughly impressed on the ladder - enough to make a name for themselves. For instance, place highly in the weekly cups on a regular basis and you'll get your chance. I get the fact that its easier for koreans to get good practise and hence get good, but the skill roof where it really matters is way higher than low/mid masters.
I'm on a decent team and I am definitely not low/mid masters. I don't ladder much. It is just annoying that when teammates are not online I have no viable practice. I wish I had more structure to everything.
On January 17 2012 08:55 avilo wrote: Either way...why even focus on korean players getting teams, when imo a bigger issue is why are casters being so overpaid compared to the players that are even making their job possible in the first place? I see very few players gone caster or casters that make it big that actively try to find ways to help out the player population...they just mostly seem to get their fame and then go on from there with their own personal journey forgetting that the only reason they can cast is cause there are a kajillion players trying to make it up the ranks and playing ggs.
There are probably about 150 SC2 players that could provide games that I'd could enjoy, there are probably less than 10 casters that I enjoy listening to. You know who they are, they're everywhere and they're great at what they do, I'd be willing to bet that many of them are harder workers than many NA aspiring pros.
As for your assertion that casters that make it big not actively trying to help the community? LOL.
Ever heard of Total Biscuit's charity streams?
MrBitter's 12 weeks with the pros (he did two....INCREDIBLY helpful for the community AND for NA players getting their name out)?
The Day[9] Daily?
Moletrap and Diggity's english casts of the Korean BW scene, done in STAGGERING volumes along with casters like Rise and Klazart NuketheStars?
State of the Game?
On January 17 2012 23:02 desRow wrote: Your blog/argument is one of the reasons I'm in Korea. And It won't get better, bw teams are switching. A year or 2 and the foreign scene will be obselete/sad TT
This isn't sad, it may hurt certain players but will ensure that the consumer gets the best product possible.
On January 17 2012 08:55 avilo wrote: Either way...why even focus on korean players getting teams, when imo a bigger issue is why are casters being so overpaid compared to the players that are even making their job possible in the first place? I see very few players gone caster or casters that make it big that actively try to find ways to help out the player population...they just mostly seem to get their fame and then go on from there with their own personal journey forgetting that the only reason they can cast is cause there are a kajillion players trying to make it up the ranks and playing ggs.
There are probably about 150 SC2 players that could provide games that I'd could enjoy, there are probably less than 10 casters that I enjoy listening to. You know who they are, they're everywhere and they're great at what they do, I'd be willing to bet that many of them are harder workers than many NA aspiring pros.
As for your assertion that casters that make it big not actively trying to help the community? LOL.
Ever heard of Total Biscuit's charity streams?
MrBitter's 12 weeks with the pros (he did two....INCREDIBLY helpful for the community AND for NA players getting their name out)?
The Day[9] Daily?
Moletrap and Diggity's english casts of the Korean BW scene, done in STAGGERING volumes along with casters like Rise and Klazart NuketheStars?
On January 17 2012 23:02 desRow wrote: Your blog/argument is one of the reasons I'm in Korea. And It won't get better, bw teams are switching. A year or 2 and the foreign scene will be obselete/sad TT
This isn't sad, it may hurt certain players but will ensure that the consumer gets the best product possible.
its sad because it will be too late for western teams to try to make houses and make it work being a progamer will be a impossible dream if the market is overflowed with koreans
I do think teams need to start setting up team houses. EG has one, and Reign are trying, there are also a couple of others, but there needs to be more, at some point your would hope that it becomes a standard for foreign teams to have teamhouses, but most seem very reluctant to do so (or is it just too hard to set up properly?). Otherwise Koreans will just steamroll, and only those who go to Korea are gonna have a chance.
On January 17 2012 23:02 desRow wrote: Your blog/argument is one of the reasons I'm in Korea. And It won't get better, bw teams are switching. A year or 2 and the foreign scene will be obselete/sad TT
This isn't sad, it may hurt certain players but will ensure that the consumer gets the best product possible.
I agree with desRow. It is sad. Best product is subjective. If there are no foreigners in the scene then SC2 will lose lots of popularity. I believe the best product for the health of SC2 is a combination of great play and a foreign presence.
Think of all the sports that the United States does not have a strong presence in on a global scale. Yes there is a niche market for them (soccer), but overall they are not nearly as popular as basketball, football, and baseball. BW has a niche following in this country while SC2 is much more popular. If this continues a lot of SC2 fans will lose interest and move onto the next thing and SC2 as we know it will fade into a niche following like its predecessor.
On January 17 2012 14:17 FXOpen wrote: I think the thing missing from the post is that Koreans are joining foreign teams so they DONT HAVE to practice like Koreans do and still get rewarded.
The infrastructure doesn't exist in the US because "sacrificing my life" isn't in the foreign players vocabulary.
Alot of the korean pros come from poorer backgrounds and are willing to do whatever it takes to succeed. Average Korean player plays more than 8 hours per day, and does it properly making notes and adjusting strategies to the second.
They don't get a solid income from this, but they increase their chances. Alot of the foreign pros play all their games on stream, and other than a select few, I dont see them analysing their own play properly and taking notes and adjusting to try to make a build work which generally means they aren't practicing properly regardless of who they are practicing with.
I would do ANYTHING to just have the chance to sacrifice my life to be a pro. Unfortunately that is quite difficult when you don't already have the chance to live in a pro house as a B teamer or something. Or even have access to the Korean ladder without a decent ping because of your location.
Tons of players with a shit ton of potential aren't even being given chances because it's better to toss a few dollars at a mediocre Korean over a foreigner who hasn't had the chance to practice in a decent environment.
Dude, if your skill level isn't high enough to get noticed on NA/EU and join a decent team, it certainly isn't good enough for Korea. None of the players on the proteams (either korean or foreign) were like "Hey, im masters. Can i join your team?". There are enough of those people around. It has always been about showing skill and then getting picked up. I can bet you that any current korean proteam player has either come from a prior highly skilled RTS setting (bw or wc3 pro) or thoroughly impressed on the ladder - enough to make a name for themselves. For instance, place highly in the weekly cups on a regular basis and you'll get your chance. I get the fact that its easier for koreans to get good practise and hence get good, but the skill roof where it really matters is way higher than low/mid masters.
I'm on a decent team and I am definitely not low/mid masters. I don't ladder much. It is just annoying that when teammates are not online I have no viable practice. I wish I had more structure to everything.
I was basing my post on the ranks you have on your profile. I agree focused practice/pracc with teammates gives benefits. But ladder is still a viable option. It's a good a chance as any to work on mechanics and gives further knowledge about styles your regular practise partners dont usually exhibit. If anything it goes back to my post about private servers/integrated lag-less realms.
The part about Korean gamers not sacrificing as much really ticks me off especially after reading Perfectman's interview .Koreans in the progaming houses don't even see their family and friends even though they stay in the same country. Not even a lot of free time during weekends and holidays.They sacrificed their childhood and other career options leaving them with no academic and technical skills upon retirement. In other aspects, i doubt anyone will say that foreign progamers sacrificed as much as Koreans.
Sure Koreans's 8 hours of structured training > 8 hours of ladder. But foreigners don't even work as hard as the Koreans even if we only consider the hours and not the quality. They always fall back to the " we want a balanced lifestyle" excuse.
If thousands of foreigners put in 12-15 hours of practice everyday and the foreigner scene still underperforms because no team supports the players, no coaches are there to give them builds and evaluate them, then sure we can sympathize. But not when it's common knowledge that foreign progamers are LAZIER than their Korean counterparts except for a select few ( as said by Avilo).
Keep in mind also that Korean progamers in the early 2000 suffered a lot and yet they put in countless hours eventhough they had no guarantee that they can make a career out of the game. Can't come in with the attitude of " I will only work hard if you guarantee that I will be rich from playing the game"
On January 18 2012 01:03 IdrA wrote: sc1 teams didnt want foreigners cuz we sucked sc2 teams want koreans cuz we suck got to korea or get a different job
Greg are.... are you okay?
-edit: I just don't think I've ever heard you say or post anything self detrimental before....
On January 18 2012 01:03 IdrA wrote: sc1 teams didnt want foreigners cuz we sucked sc2 teams want koreans cuz we suck got to korea or get a different job
quintessence of pro gaming for foreign players
should be written somewhere on a stone, on a lost and desertic island
From a teams perspective, you either bring results or exposure. Or ideally, a mixture of both. To make a broad statement; currently foreigners are good for exposure and Koreans are good for the results. For foreigners to make the money they want, you need to do one of the other fairly well. There are manyyyyy foreigners who also make more money than they should in relation to results and Koreans. For example, EU teams :D
It's unfortunately a business, and teams are going to prioritize who they pay the most based on results; which are usually Koreans.
On January 18 2012 01:03 IdrA wrote: sc1 teams didnt want foreigners cuz we sucked sc2 teams want koreans cuz we suck got to korea or get a different job
if anything, foreign teams should recruit koreans and force them to live in the US or europe.
if eg made puma live in america and forced him to everyday play with americans, then that would benefit the american scene because there is only 1 good terran in america (select) that they can even play with.
tbh, violet is living in america now and foreigners should jump at the chance to ask him for practice games.
If anything, link this thread to future "I wanna go pro" threads.
Have the talent, time, money, passion, and self-discipline to succeed? Nope, get your ass to Korea or else all these traits are irrelevant.
I actually enjoy all the resentment and biased (as in, all the undeserved hype) favoritism based on nationality. If you head over to the "most underrated players thread", apparently half the foreigners that have shown absolutely little to no results are all underrated gravely... because they uh... are better looking? Speak English? Stomps shitty N.A./E.U. masters players? This is the part I'm frustrated about.
However, once international tournament times roll around, foreigners have mostly been dominated by Koreans (save for a select few that trained in Korea) just like the way it was in Broodwar, flipping the overhype bandwagon upside down. And now that the better Korean players are getting picked up by foreign teams, the foreigners who's jobs are threatened come out and put the blame MOSTLY on the system without addressing the issue of work ethics due to living standard difference? Absolutely GOLD, I'm loving it. Sounds a lot like the "dey turk errr jerbs" reaction to me.
Edit: LOL Idra, quoted for TLDR'ing what I said in 3 lines.
On January 18 2012 01:03 IdrA wrote: sc1 teams didnt want foreigners cuz we sucked sc2 teams want koreans cuz we suck got to korea or get a different job
On January 18 2012 01:03 IdrA wrote: sc1 teams didnt want foreigners cuz we sucked sc2 teams want koreans cuz we suck got to korea or get a different job
He said it best. He knows it best better than anyone. If you want reward, you need to put up results... Listen to him
On January 17 2012 08:55 avilo wrote: Either way...why even focus on korean players getting teams, when imo a bigger issue is why are casters being so overpaid compared to the players that are even making their job possible in the first place? I see very few players gone caster or casters that make it big that actively try to find ways to help out the player population...they just mostly seem to get their fame and then go on from there with their own personal journey forgetting that the only reason they can cast is cause there are a kajillion players trying to make it up the ranks and playing ggs.
There are probably about 150 SC2 players that could provide games that I'd could enjoy, there are probably less than 10 casters that I enjoy listening to. You know who they are, they're everywhere and they're great at what they do, I'd be willing to bet that many of them are harder workers than many NA aspiring pros.
As for your assertion that casters that make it big not actively trying to help the community? LOL.
Ever heard of Total Biscuit's charity streams?
MrBitter's 12 weeks with the pros (he did two....INCREDIBLY helpful for the community AND for NA players getting their name out)?
The Day[9] Daily?
Moletrap and Diggity's english casts of the Korean BW scene, done in STAGGERING volumes along with casters like Rise and Klazart NuketheStars?
State of the Game?
On January 17 2012 23:02 desRow wrote: Your blog/argument is one of the reasons I'm in Korea. And It won't get better, bw teams are switching. A year or 2 and the foreign scene will be obselete/sad TT
This isn't sad, it may hurt certain players but will ensure that the consumer gets the best product possible.
its sad because it will be too late for western teams to try to make houses and make it work being a progamer will be a impossible dream if the market is overflowed with koreans
I just like to point out that you're still missing the fact here. Congratulations on the chance to train in Korea, you'll be miles ahead of your peers soon. However, as viewers/spectators of this e-sport, I, and many others, couldn't possibly care any less where the top players, or any player in the scene are from as long as they produce the best quality games. You keep speaking as if it's a terrible thing if western teams essentially become Korean teams, where you went as far as to use the phrase "overflowed with koreans". I mean... come on, thousands of not-good-enough aspiring young Korean progamers sacrifice everything and are rewarded nothing in return, should I sympathize with foreigners (who's living conditions are 99% of the times better than what's found in Korea) more over these Korean kids? Nope, I don't, and neither should you or anyone else.
I like the BW scene the way it is now free of foreigners just fine, thank you very much. For the same thing to happen to SC2? Perfect, bring it on, I want my higher quality games please!
Lastly to add, I like having diversity. I like having more competition, which would ultimately result in even higher levels of play, I would love it if foreigners could compete on equal footing with Koreans, but because of cultural, living standards and structural obstacles, this isn't going to happen so I am simply stating the facts.
People would throw up at the amount of money casters make T_T!
But ya, moving to Korea is a sick option, but it's not required... Thorzain (aside from the few random weeks he was in Korea) never trained in Korea seriously, spent all his time at home, never lived in a house, but he's one of the most precise players out there. It's about HOW you practice. If you play 10 hours a day the right way, it doesn't matter where you live. You will get better.
I'm not sure why you need to be so negative about Koreans joining foreign teams. Its the only way that good Western players are going to get good practice partners. It also adds talent to the NA/EU ladder+tournament scene.
Western progamers should be worried about Koreans "stealing all our jorbs". We need all the motivation we can get because we don't have a team house tradition yet.
On January 18 2012 01:03 IdrA wrote: sc1 teams didnt want foreigners cuz we sucked sc2 teams want koreans cuz we suck got to korea or get a different job
I love the idra-esque way you put this.
However, going to Korea does not seem like the best option if Starcraft is going to continue to grow in the foreign scene. The few of you who have put life aside to pursue your professional careers should be commended but it is not a realistic option for too many up and coming players. If Starcraft II is to continue to grow it needs to find a way that players can stay in their native countries and still be competitive with the Koreans.
On January 16 2012 19:58 krisss wrote: so what u want to say is: give NA/EU players more money despite they play worse than koreans. rofl. Like a korean progamer doesnt "sacrifice" his life.. ,your argumentation is just silly. Korea is the mekka of esports, Tasteless says is EVERY day. Didnt u listen?
when u wanna be good at table tennis, u need to go to china, when u wanna be good in ski-junping, u need to come to EU. As simple as that. Awkward, how ppl become racist when they see their money in danger.
User was warned for this post
I don't really know why this User was warned for his post, but I think what he's trying to say makes sense. Korean progamers sacrifice as much as foreign progamers do, and likewise, foreign progamers sacrifice as much as korean progamers do. I'm pretty sure it's worse in Korea, as they have a much more stricter, intensely career-focused, and stressful society. And like he says, if you want to be the best at something, go where it's currently the best. Not much more to say than that.
This is worse than the girl blogs. Your wanting of people to to just accept a worse product and pay the same amount is absolutely ridiculous. If you can't handle the competition, then maybe being a professional gamer isn't for you.
To be rather frank, I don't particularly care what any player WANTS in terms of money, contracts, whatever. I am plainly interested in what a player DESERVES. If your team picks up a korean player and he outplays you, he deserves a spot more than you. This is a business. Sponsors care about how many people will see their product. If fans want to see great play regardless of nationality and the koreans are the best, then it is in sponsors best interest to invest in teams who have the best team, regardless of what nationalities are represented. Therefore, it is in the best interest of teams to pick up great players whether you think Koreans should be on your team or not.
tldr: Play better and whine less. That's a harsh reality that many foreign pros have to come to. Practice as hard as the Koreans, beat them, and the sponsors (therefore the teams) will start noticing.
On January 18 2012 10:55 Leeoku wrote: i think u need to look at the culture. gaming in korea is more open/accepted than foreigners tahts why competition so high there
this post makes no sense :S tt1 says foreigners have to spend lots of time and earn little. to go to korea they have to give up alot. koreans coming to foreign teams have to give up alot. they are good because they are willng to sacrifize huge portions of their lifes to gaming. who is he blaming really? nobody is doing anything wrong he says foreigners cant have the same training as koreans, well all its takes is for a number of foreigners to get together and train the same amount as the koreans. they dont. thatswhy the koreans are better and more wanted players? being a progamer is definatly not for everone if a korean puts his life to entertain us give him the money. dont give the money they player who trains less or who trains the same amount but it just not as good,
On January 18 2012 06:33 Xeris wrote: People would throw up at the amount of money casters make T_T!
Why? They get as much money as the events deems their attraction worthy. If I ran an event and had to buy two people to represent the event to all the viewers, I'd make sure they're well payed as well. They more or less the dictate the viewer experience.
I'd rather watch a good caster cast a bad game than watch a good game casted by a bad caster. The same way I'd rather watch IdrA play a group stage game (I'm an IdrA fan) than 2 random pros play a finals.
The geography is a big factor as well. The potential talent in the foreign scene is too spread out compared to Korea which can probably only be solved by large growth of the foreign sc2 esport scene, which is related to next point.
I didn't see anyone bring up is the catch 22 like situation of Koreans dominating the foreign scene and "taking the price money".
-Foreigners doing well means larger foreign audience which means larger foreign price pools. -Foreigners not doing well means smaller foreign audience which means smaller foreign price pools.
And to state the obvious relation to what I mentioned first, there will probably not be a large growth of the foreign scene if Koreans completely dominate the main foreign tournaments.
Considering how you have trolled people on your stream and how you accused people using drop hacks, maphacks when they clearly weren't kinda made me into an anti-fan of you. Also when you say 'it's too risky' - Koreans are living in a society where if you don't have a uni degree you get stuck at the minimum wage forever (which is approx. $4 an hour). Who are you to say Koreans are not taking risks because they are living in Korea?
Lets take the argument economically, from the foreigner standpoint (playing devils advocate a bit):
From this point of view, SC2 can't compete economically with other jobs. It is an underpaying job which requires high time commitment and a high skill/monetary requirement for initial enrollment, which means you probably have a decent economic condition (for buying SC2, having a good enough computer and being able to sit around in your PC all day). For this kind of 'worker', the alternatives are: A) much easier to enroll, and have a much higher success rate; and B) pay many times as much. Alternatives include like web/design programming jobs, getting some minor degree, and even manufacturing jobs probably will make you earn more even if you take into account the probability that you will enroll in a top team/win tournaments vs the sum of money you could make, i.e. the expected value of each (I'm pretty sure about this; tough this is true for many other jobs where glamour is involved, like in the artistic world/some other sports).
On the other hand, from the Korean standpoint:
From their POV, SC2 is competitive (and getting better). You probably don't need a very good economic condition to compete, given Korea's broadband penetration/PC-centric tech culture. I don't know Korea's economy too digress to much about this, but you can probably say: A) the alternatives are not much easier to enroll -- take a look at Korea's academic competitiveness for example, and with proper training you have high chances of getting into a team; and B) given your chances with getting a good quality job and all and the incentives already in place for eSports (the structure), the expected value maybe be comparable to alternatives. Pour in the glamour of being an eSport god in Korea, and its all very attractive.
So yes, the argument makes sense from that standpoint. And changing that is not easy at all. I think Blizzard could actually help out the foreign scene kickstart a little bit by making pro house subsidies or something, intead of just draining money from the scene, in it's own self-interest.
On January 18 2012 10:22 Dubzex wrote: This is worse than the girl blogs. Your wanting of people to to just accept a worse product and pay the same amount is absolutely ridiculous. If you can't handle the competition, then maybe being a professional gamer isn't for you.
Yea that's pretty much how I feel too. Progaming is a shitty job. You have to work ridiculously hard to compete. If you don't like it, then get a better-suited job. Don't argue that we should accept mediocrity.
On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote: a HUGE portion of the players are being underpaid, the amount of money vs the amount of time we have to put into the game in order to stay competitive is let's say..... very shitty?
Putting in a lot of time for little money isn't being underpaid. Your average foreigner isn't someone like idra, who can command $$ because he's one of the top foreigners and everyone who is remotely attracted to thef ield knows who he is. Instead, he has little to no name recognition and no notable results. There's no value in that, the team and sponsors aren't making shit on those people. Your average foreigner is easily replaceable, much like the dude who throws lettuce on your burger at BK. It's a shitty job, not underpayment.
On January 18 2012 10:22 Dubzex wrote: This is worse than the girl blogs. Your wanting of people to to just accept a worse product and pay the same amount is absolutely ridiculous. If you can't handle the competition, then maybe being a professional gamer isn't for you.
Yea that's pretty much how I feel too. Progaming is a shitty job. You have to work ridiculously hard to compete. If you don't like it, then get a better-suited job. Don't argue that we should accept mediocrity.
Seeing these veterans is fired by x-company and is now in search of employment are starting to become customary these days, i feel like as a fresh graduate a lot of our interests aren't being heard because typically fresh graduates don't voice their issues as much as they should, we just keep the talk between ourselves which doesn't accomplish anything and tbh i feel like sooner or later were going to need an organization that can represent our interests just so we can legitimize ourselves because as it is a lot of us are getting fed the shit-end of the stick
now to get to the main issue, I'm all for the globalization of university education and as a masters degree graduate ive always looked up to the people with jobs and dreamt of being able to find proper employment someday but ill be honest.. ive always wondered why fresh graduates were never offered the same type of treatment in the job market that the experienced but unemployed are currently being offered in this current market, good on them if all the companies and the government are welcoming them with open arms but afaik when a friend tried to get a job out of high school they chased him into university and never gave him an opportunity to do so, they excluded us from everything because we were of no use to them
now to be fair i don't know if the reason why we were ostracized so much from the market had something to do with Bush, the companies/government or if it had to do with something else but in any case thats not what im here to talk about, what i wanted to voice were a few issues from the fresh graduate’s perspesctive
I know as people with jobs u probably wont care much about this because u just want to see people who supposedly know what they’re doing performing jobs that may directly affect you (regardless of whether they are actually skilled enough to pull it off) but this is an extremely sensitive issue to the fresh graduates. Any potential $$ that is going to a veteran worker is potential money that isn't going to the fresh graduates, a HUGE portion of the fresh graduates are being underpaid, the amount of money vs the amount of time we have to put into learning the skills in order to stay competitive is let's say..... very shitty? On top of that we can't get the same type of training that the experienced workers are getting because our infrastructure fucking blows, now all of a sudden the experienced workers are saying to themselves "hmmm, we need a job but we can probably just start taking entry level ones again", whats going to happen to us 5-10 years down the line?
For alot of fresh graduates its extremely hard to drop everything in our lives just so that we can move out of home in order to keep up with them opportunity-wise. Why cant we have the same type of training that they have without having to sacrifice a huge portion of our lives? The only fresh graduates who wont fall behind the experienced workers skill wise are the ones who will be willing to sacrifice a huge part of their lives during school so they can get internships and such and alot of those players are either a) young or b) are already financially set, that type of sacrifice wont impact them as much as say a masters graduate or PhD graduate whos in his early-midd twenties and isnt getting paid/isnt willing to sacrifice his life as much as those experienced workers with nothing else to do which makes that type of sacrifice an extremely high risk thing to do
if things dont change then 3 years from now the fresh graduates are going to live off of their parents while working the odd Micky D’s and the experience gap between them and the experienced workers is going to grow so much that they'll end up being a non factor in the job market, that being said ull still have the odd 4-5 well paid PhD graduates working their high-pay jobs who are going to give them a run for their money at every job opportunity (however theyll fail 95% of the time simply because theyre outnumbered), if ur satisfied with that then im happy for u but unfortunately alot of talented people will never achieve their true potential and we'll never get to know what type of people they would have turned into which to me would be the greatest tragedy in the world
On January 18 2012 06:33 Xeris wrote: People would throw up at the amount of money casters make T_T!
Why? They get as much money as the events deems their attraction worthy. If I ran an event and had to buy two people to represent the event to all the viewers, I'd make sure they're well payed as well. They more or less the dictate the viewer experience.
I'd rather watch a good caster cast a bad game than watch a good game casted by a bad caster. The same way I'd rather watch IdrA play a group stage game (I'm an IdrA fan) than 2 random pros play a finals.
Because some of the best potential casters are current players. Like if Idra or Huk were making shit money while practicing 10 hours a day, relying on prize money, they might just say fuck this I'm going into casting because I have an easier lifestyle and I'll make more money.
I'm not saying casters just pick up a mic and cast but they definitely have more free time compared to players, less stress and their performance is more forgiving.
No they're not. Casting (or any kind of sport announcing for that matter) is much, much more than game knowledge. Shit, that's pretty much secondary to having a velvety voice. Kellymilkies could have been the Sun Tzu of SC2, but no one cared because her voice was awful
On January 18 2012 06:33 Xeris wrote: People would throw up at the amount of money casters make T_T!
Why? They get as much money as the events deems their attraction worthy. If I ran an event and had to buy two people to represent the event to all the viewers, I'd make sure they're well payed as well. They more or less the dictate the viewer experience.
I'd rather watch a good caster cast a bad game than watch a good game casted by a bad caster. The same way I'd rather watch IdrA play a group stage game (I'm an IdrA fan) than 2 random pros play a finals.
Because some of the best potential casters are current players. Like if Idra or Huk were making shit money while practicing 10 hours a day, relying on prize money, they might just say fuck this I'm going into casting because I have an easier lifestyle and I'll make more money.
I'm not saying casters just pick up a mic and cast but they definitely have more free time compared to players, less stress and their performance is more forgiving.
I don't think that's a fair comparison. For one, during an event weekend I think the casters have a much rougher schedule than the players do. I don't know how much time, say TB, spends on practicing his SC2 casting outside of doing actual casts (it's a hobby for him after all) but I'm pretty sure Day[9] has a 8 hour work day. There's more to being a caster than recording games and uploading files.
Also, if Stephano plays only 3h a day, should he receive less money for winning than someone who practices 10h a day? No, and I think the same applies to casters. It's the service they provide at an event that they get payed for and the worth of said service is defined by demand and availability, much like any other product/service.
No one would rant if MLG hired the worlds best video editor for 3x as much money as they next guy in line, as long as he/she delivered. It's MLG's money, they do as they please with it to ensure a good return of investment. Right now, investing in popular casters is a good investment.
On January 18 2012 06:33 Xeris wrote: People would throw up at the amount of money casters make T_T!
Why? They get as much money as the events deems their attraction worthy. If I ran an event and had to buy two people to represent the event to all the viewers, I'd make sure they're well payed as well. They more or less the dictate the viewer experience.
I'd rather watch a good caster cast a bad game than watch a good game casted by a bad caster. The same way I'd rather watch IdrA play a group stage game (I'm an IdrA fan) than 2 random pros play a finals.
Because some of the best potential casters are current players. Like if Idra or Huk were making shit money while practicing 10 hours a day, relying on prize money, they might just say fuck this I'm going into casting because I have an easier lifestyle and I'll make more money.
I'm not saying casters just pick up a mic and cast but they definitely have more free time compared to players, less stress and their performance is more forgiving.
I don't think that's a fair comparison. For one, during an event weekend I think the casters have a much rougher schedule than the players do. I don't know how much time, say TB, spends on practicing his SC2 casting outside of doing actual casts (it's a hobby for him after all) but I'm pretty sure Day[9] has a 8 hour work day. There's more to being a caster than recording games and uploading files.
Also, if Stephano plays only 3h a day, should he receive less money for winning than someone who practices 10h a day? No, and I think the same applies to casters. It's the service they provide at an event that they get payed for and the worth of said service is defined by demand and availability, much like any other product/service.
No one would rant if MLG hired the worlds best video editor for 3x as much money as they next guy in line, as long as he/she delivered. It's MLG's money, they do as they please with it to ensure a good return of investment. Right now, investing in popular casters is a good investment.
Okay I already said casters don't have it easy either but players definitely spend more time with the game in general. Stop talking about the "actual event." I know it's hard for Artosis or Day9 to cast 12 hours a day, it's rough. But players spend 8-10 hours a day for a month prior practicing for the event. That's not an easy commitment either.
As for TB, why do I care what he does on his own time? It's awesome he's producing content for the community but he's building his own brand after all and I don't care what he does outside of casting for Sc2.
I'm not saying holy fuck casters are overpaid get this shit in order, obviously there are great casters that would get tons of views even if they were casting ladder noobies. I especially don't care if people like Day9 or Artosis or Tasteless make a ton of money because they've put their heart and soul into the community for years without expecting anything back. Just saying I think casting is less demanding than being a top player.
It might hurt, but I don't really care. In fact, I wouldn't care if the scene was 100% koreans, or 100% foreigners, or 100% monkeys that are good with computers. As long as I get to see the best games. (ofc, it's always nice to have foreigners to root for, but it's easy to be a fan of a lot of the koreans anyways)
And it'll never happen that way, there will always be a decent number of decent foreigners. Team houses for foreigners will pop up like the EG house to help out along the way.
If you're finding yourself struggling for money, or aren't good enough/charismatic enough to garner enough fans that you're worth keeping around for teams, maybe the SC2 scene isn't right for you.
Tired of seeing this pathetic attitude of entitlement from low or mediocre foreigner players.
1) Thinks money from nonkorean based teams belongs to them simply because they're nonkorean. It's an international game with an international player base in an international economy, teams can invest in anyone they see fit. It's business, their job is to make money and they do that by investing in players who are going to produce the most results, gather the most fans and get them the most exposure to their sponsors, regardless of their nationality. This isn't a charity. That money isn't yours in the first place just because you're nonkorean and the koreans aren't "stealing" it, they're earning it.
2) Wants to get paid more without producing any results or putting in the same efforts as koreans and guys like huk "sacrificing their life". No shit you have to sacrifice, it's a job when you get paid to play it, not a hobby, and some jobs take sacrifice especially ones that are based on competition and are dominated by one country, apparently you got into the wrong line of work. If you want to earn the most in basketball you have to move to America. If you want to be a marine biologist, you probably are going to have to move out of your hometown in Chicago. That's just the way things are.
And koreans are sacrificing too as many pointed out, they are living in cramped apartments with a bunch of dudes, no privacy, and practicing their ass off 10 hours a day, many have also moved away from their families.. not everyone in korea lives in Seoul. The only pros not in team houses are those who have already put in the hard work and produced tons of results and no doubt gathered top tier practice partners in the process. Sorry no one is going to pay foreigner players big bucks to sit at home and ladder 4 hours a day and never put up any major tourney results while koreans are working hard in cramped team houses 10 hours a day and winning major tourneys. You're not entitled to anything, you have to earn it.
Foreigner teams are investing in foreigner players who are working hard, "sacrificing" and actually produce results like Huk, Idra, go figure... Who knew a competitive game job would reward results?? I'd bet my left nut you don't practice half as much as any of these koreans, and you obviously don't have half the results, and you seem to expect foreign based teams to invest their money in you for no better reason than just because you're a foreigner player. The fact that you have 3,500 TL posts with an average of 3+ a day, many of which are long whines like this, shows maybe you tend to waste a lot of time during your day instead of you know, practicing and improving your situation yourself?
Whining publicly about your pay is also sure to earn you love from the team you're on and encourage any teams in the future to want to pick you up if you're ever teamless so you can whine about them publicly too... /eyeroll By the way, type like an adult if you want business organizations to take "u" seriously.
darkest44 i actually get paid very well =], wasnt talking about myself i was talking about the scene in general.. i was talking about the guys that i practice with everyday and other talented players who arnt receiving the recognition that they deserve
i just want to see our players being taken care of first and foremost, thats all that im asking for
On January 19 2012 08:48 mTwTT1 wrote: darkest44 i actually get paid very well =], wasnt talking about myself i was talking about the scene in general.. i was talking about the guys i practice with everyday with and other talented players who arnt receiving the recognition that they deserve
i just want to see our players being taken care of first and foremost, thats all that im asking for
Pfft you need to realize when you back off I'd say especially when people are pretty much disagreeing with you. There are Code B Korean players who can take out majority of A+ foreign players, and they don't get paid - Look at ST_Sound, Code B unknown player beating the crap out of non-Koreans at HSC. Gaming should be skill based and if wages are determined by the skills - it's Koreans who aren't getting paid.
I hope you realize that there are more than a few good casters out there and I know I certainly tune out if all I see is "shitty" game after shitty game. I'm willing to bet that if that trend were to continue, the viewership would drop significantly regardless of the players.
Speaking of which there are many players out there who are capable of putting on more than one hat. Like I've said before, it all starts with a few good players.
I think some people are missing the point. If SC2 lose popularity in the western and we are left with only korean players being relevant to the scene I think this might end up being the end for SC2 as an esport. We have no idea if SC2 will get more popular or not in korea even after the switch from the BW teams. For all we know LoL/Dota 2 might be the next big thing in korean esport and if SC2 lose its support from the west in its current state well the game will simply die.
TT1 is right on a huge thing. "the infrastructure blows" Whats the point of these 5 man rosters on the top foreign teams? You look at a team like TSL which has just had some of its limbs blown off and it still has a deeper roster than any foreign team because even if their players are undervalued and given terrible conditions, they still have an excellent training environment. You cant really say the same thing about some of these foreign teams. Socke and darkforce might put in the same hours as koreans but they are only practicing with the same few people all the time.
TT1 is a north american player on a european team. Thats how stretched out foreign teams are. His team supports him very well but TT1 is expected to manage his own practice and preparation for tournaments, thats just how things are in the foreigner scene. Some might say MTW taking TT1 onto the team is good cos it shows they are a global team and a cost effective way participate in MLG. But I think its because there hasnt been a real commitment or drive to invest in the development of players for the long term by teams or players (so many collapsed team houses) and teams are just too eager to buy players after they have already made a name for themselves. And now with lots of Koreans on the market why would you buy anything else? We were beginning to see such a thing with the eg house but then they packed up and outsourced it to slayers and kicked the growing talent out of the team.
Digging all the arm chair coaching and lecturing going on here...
I don't pretend to understand much about the scene, being as I'm not a player or involved directly. As someone who watches the occasion tournament games I enjoy rivalry stories though. I buy into the hype of Foreigner vs Korean games. I get excited when the underdog Foreigner takes games off the invincible Koreans. It makes for a good story. That makes for some great television. With that being said, there will always be these kinds of stories told to draw fans and draw excitement.
I would be inclined to compare it to Canada and the NHL. Canada is exceptional at hockey and has been for a number of years. For a long time, Canada and Russia were the power houses of hockey with everyone else not being able to keep up. Even still, Canada breeds the cream of the crop of talent. Many of the talented hockey players from other countries need to come to North America to play in the NHL (which is dominated by Canadians mostly) to reach their peak and the peak in the business. They have to sacrifice a great deal for this and work very hard. With that being said though, that gap is slowly closing and will continue to close. The world is becoming smaller and the sport is becoming more and more popular, which is fostering growth in other countries. Slowly, but surely, the sport is growing and players outside of Canada are popping up and reaching all-star status. The reason is because the sport is growing in popularity around the world. The training camps and teams are receiving funding because there is a demand for that form of entertainment, and it is becoming a viable career option.
Why are Koreans the best? It might be because of the work ethic, but I personally believe it more so has to do with culture. Canadians aren't "the best" at ice hockey because we practice harder than Americans or Europeans, but rather because it's part of our culture. The game here is so popular, and from a young age it's acceptable to pour your heart into it. In fact, it's looked down upon if you don't! In Korea, it's acceptable to do that for SC2. This isn't to knock anything, but the sport needs to grow and support a system similar to what Korea has. Unfortunately it's not there yet. This process would definitely be sped up by things such as a global server, so people could practice against similar caliber levels of players in a lag free environment. The level of practice available would at least level to a degree. In time this will happen. The gaming world is becoming smaller, but we're not there yet. The culture of gaming has yet to evolve. Once that happens, the demand and stability that you desire for gaming will come with it. That is what Korea has that foreigners do not.
It is my hope that one day competitive gaming will reach the stability and popularity that other sports have. This will probably happen too, but unfortunately that culture is growing right now. Many of the complaints are a result of that - Korea is just ahead of their support of the industry in general. If you want to foster better conditions for the players, foster the culture and industry of gaming first. The talent and competitiveness will follow that. For now, the simple and sometimes unrealistic solution is indeed, "If you want to be among the best, better move to Korea." They have the culture and systems in place to maximum training, whereas the west does not. A global server would really equalize the playing field in this respect. In due time...
PS - This is just my humble opinion as a fan of the sport.
You don't think those 14-15 year olds are sacrificing a significant part of their life to go into progaming? Dropping out of middle schools and leaving their family to live with 20 others guys in small apartments, in a society where education is feverishly worshipped and people without degrees are blatantly looked down upon sounds like a walk in the park?
Keep in mind for every successful Korean starcraft progamer whose parents say "Oh, I was very much against it at first, but now I'm sooo proud of my son", there are numerous kids who didn't make the cut despite of years of full-time dedication. They are taking a HUGE risk.
If you want a risk free job, then progaming is most likely not the career for you.
On January 20 2012 04:37 Sein wrote: You don't think those 14-15 year olds are sacrificing a significant part of their life to go into progaming? Dropping out of middle schools and leaving their family to live with 20 others guys in small apartments, in a society where education is feverishly worshipped and people without degrees are blatantly looked down upon sounds like a walk in the park?
Keep in mind for every successful Korean starcraft progamer whose parents say "Oh, I was very much against it at first, but now I'm sooo proud of my son", there are numerous kids who didn't make the cut despite of years of full-time dedication. They are taking a HUGE risk.
If you want a risk free job, then progaming is most likely not the career for you.
There are also numerous kids who study for hours and hours that don't even get into the college that they want to because of how competitive studying is in South Korea. What really is a "safe job" for them? :s
I'm not an expert, but I've been thinking about this for a while and here is my analysis of the difference between Koreans and foreign pros:
Foreigners aren't going to be able to compete with Koreans because they don't(can't) practice as hard(well). The team-house environment is really crucial for cultivating top talent, and there are very few team houses outside of Korea as far as I know. Being able to directly communicate with players and talk about the game outside of the game is a big deal.
I'm guessing the problem lies in the fact that in Korea, team expenses can be primarily spent on lodging, food, equipment, and salaries. Foreigners have to travel a lot for major events, so teams spend money on a variety of players who live in different countries (although usually on the same continent), but who have been able to show good results based on their own work regiment. Their teams can't be as deep because they have to prioritize who they can afford to pay a salary and fly out to major events. Koreans teams are large enough so that various intelligent and focus practice regiments can be devised.
I think that the scene needs to be a bit more localized. Large weekend events are popular because the live audience aspect is such a huge draw, but how successful can they really be with only 5 or so events a year? Compare to the GSL which has a live crowd and killer production value almost every night of the week. Again, this has to do with how spread apart players and teams are. In my opinion, it would be wonderful if MLG settled down in California and got a studio set up. They don't need to travel the country in order to attract competitors. I think people would move to wherever MLG set up their studio to be a part of a GSL-style league. Team houses could locate themselves near studios creating an even better environment for pro gaming.
And none of this would change the way our online tournaments and qualifiers work. We could still have a "Weekend Marathon" tournament every once in a while, but it shouldn't be the main format for foreign esports.
If I'm wrong in any part of my analysis, please let me know because I admit that I don't know the inner workings of team houses or how players are compensated within and outside of Korea. My reasoning is solely based on the premise that the team house environment is what compels Koreans to play at such a level, and that it seems like the foreign scene is not currently adequate to handle that type of structure.
Edit:
On January 17 2012 14:17 FXOpen wrote: They don't get a solid income from this, but they increase their chances. Alot of the foreign pros play all their games on stream, and other than a select few, I dont see them analysing their own play properly and taking notes and adjusting to try to make a build work which generally means they aren't practicing properly regardless of who they are practicing with.
Practicing against better players is going to drastically affect the quality of your practice as well. You can utilize smart practice and study and do very very well, but at the highest levels of play you want to practice with people who are going to innovate new ideas, exploit your every weakness because they are actually good enough to do it. Being in a team house would make it easier to focus your practice as well. Players that are able to do well outside of the team house environment are an enigma and usually aren't consistent with their success.
I think Koreans are also sacrificing a lot by (trying) being a progamer. If you take the average salaries, without prize money, it's probably pathetic, may be even lower than that of westerners. So you cannot say they are advantaged. The ones earning money even among Koreans is a very small fraction of total # players.
I get a sense that TT1 is asking for tourneys for foreigners only and/or teams with foreigners only. Will this help? I doubt it. I doubt it because even if you had a higher portion of foreigners winning money, most foreigners wouldn't be ready to risk their lives, because most of them will still not win prize money.
This can become a real industry only and only if # of fans increase drastically, and being a progamer becomes a real job.
Seriously though, yes, foreigners may be getting the shorter end of the stick but that's because like everybody else is saying there are a lot more S and A class Koreans than S and A class foreigners, and hell most of those foreigners come from Europe as well. Compared to Korea and Europe the Americans really don't have as many good players.
Perhaps this will help you understand the differenece bewteen Foreign pros and Korean pros. Minor league baseball players make $1200-$4000 a month and they are not that much worse than "the show" players making millions and banging 3 supermodels at time in thier hotel suite. In enterainment only the tippy top pays. That goes for ALL entertainment carrers. Be a doctor or lawyer if you can't handle poverty or excellence.
On January 19 2012 08:48 mTwTT1 wrote: darkest44 i actually get paid very well =], wasnt talking about myself i was talking about the scene in general.. i was talking about the guys that i practice with everyday and other talented players who arnt receiving the recognition that they deserve
i just want to see our players being taken care of first and foremost, thats all that im asking for
Though it is noble, it is also a naive line of thinking. If 2 players practice equally, the player with the better opponents or the more talented player will be the better player eventually. Basically, EU/NA needs to become better to stay better, so you all have to up your game to get the level they have in Korea. And about sacrificing lives, I don't think I want to live like the koreans in their team houses, but anybody who wants to be succesful over there and in the end over here has to. It is your choice, no one is forcing you
Wouldn't mind large foreign tournaments which banned korean players from participating just to see who's at the top of the ladder foreigner wise. However, this wouldn't generate as much hype as a korean-filled foreign tournament nowadays, which really is a shame.
Isn't it supposed to be good that many Koreans are on the same team as foreigners? Imo foreigners get really good practice partners, very accessible for them.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NfhXK.jpg)
) moving to the European mainland at a stretch.
![[image loading]](http://wescomer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/anyone-can-cook.jpg)
