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As much as I want to agree with what TT1 is saying it really is of no concern to the fans, most of which like to watch the best players play. Sure they have a few favourites from some foreign teams but when it comes down to Skorea puts out the best talent, and everyone loves to see those kinds of matches.
As far as "infrastructure" the western side of e-sports will probably always suffer, even teams who try the "team-house" mentality fail to produce any good results or even maintain a grind it out kind of practice schedule it seems ( speculation obviously ).
Essentially it all boils down to what naniwa said (paraphrasing) if you want to be the best you go to korea, if you don't go to korea you aren't taking it seriously enough and will never be the best.
He doesn't necessarily want to be there, but he knows what is good for his career and is willing to sacrifice that portion of his life to reach his potential. In this regard it is hard to have sympathy with any pro-gamer who wants to complain about the not having a korean style scene or practice situation, the option is there, people seem either to scared to fail or unwilling to put the effort in to go and try.
All personal opinion, not any representation of any pros thoughts just a general sense I get from what I have seen since release.
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On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote:
Why cant we have the same type of training that they have without having to sacrifice a huge portion of our lives?
Because that would be unfair? Because thats what the koreans do?
Because all that the koreans learn is playing starcraft?
Because they won't be able to get a good "normal" job afterwards and pretty much have a "do or die" situation here?
I'm sorry, I get your main points and all, but some things really surprise me. I think you should know better than that.
If you want to be a progamer, don't complain about the commitment. The koreans have the same amount of commitment. Everyone has. No one becomes a progamer overnight because he had a good dream.
I do however know your other points, especially about being generally being underpaid, and I fully support you in these cases.
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First of all, shouldn't this be a blog? You're not asking any questions or looking for a discussion by the looks of it.
I'm trying to understand your point, but it is hard, because this is what professional sport is like. All sports are like this, because of the very nature of competition. Why should someone that doesn't achieve "anything" get paid the same as those that do? Money doesn't grow on trees, and in a competitive environment you will have to give it your all, or be satisfied with being underpaid/casual. In the US many players are drafted for competitive sports in high school (right?), to play sports fulltime. If that fails, you have no education, but they do it because it's their dream and they give it their all. Same for many other sports where you can spend 4-12 hours daily refining your skill, and basically not have time to do anything else; You end up all-in, so to speak. This is how the world works, because we as viewers do not wan't to pay money to watch "bad" players play, we want to watch the best compete and keep push the limits.
It is something every athlete that wants to be professional has to face eventually. Do you want to play casually for your own sake, or do you want to take a risk and try to become the best. 99% "fail", 1% is the best of the best. Deal with it or get a normal job like most people - and those that didn't wan't to take the risk.
That being said, an organization is probably not a bad idea to preserve the interests of the players, but it won't change much. Few sponsors would be interested in paying for mediocre play, unless you can somehow offer other ways of "selling" their product.
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On January 16 2012 20:08 fams wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 20:03 ReignFayth wrote:On January 16 2012 20:02 fams wrote:
I just want to say, the amount of dedication and professionalism from the majority of Korean players trumps that of the majority of Western players. Not to mention, from a marketing standpoint, Korean professional gamers offer a lot more in terms of Starcraft because of the stigma in all our heads that Koreans are the gosu's and Westerners are the chobo's.
When I go to a major tournament, who do I see practising every moment between games? Korean players. Are there some foreigners who also do this? Sure, of course, Strelok for one does this as well. What do I see when the tournament is done for the day? For the majority of Western players (oddly enough the ones not doing well) are out drinking and partying. Meanwhile, the Westerners who are doing good (IdrA, HuK, etc.) are in their rooms early, sleeping. As are the Koreans - or if you are a SlayerS member, like MMA and BoxeR, you stay up to 2am practising some more.
Additionally, Korean professional gamers give up a lot as well, just as much as IdrA and HuK in some cases. IdrA and HuK gave up their family and friends to move abroad to follow their dreams of becoming professional gamers - is that not what viOlet and Artist are doing? They gave up their families and friends to move to the USA in order to pursue their career as pro-gamers.
Not to mention the time the Koreans (and now people like IdrA and HuK) put in at those pro-gaming houses, is massive compared to the time the vast majority of Westerners put into the game.
I will agree that there needs to be a governing body with the PLAYERS best interests at heart, but segregating it based on ethnicity would just defeat the purpose.
I feel that if players, from any part of the world, wish to become a professional gamer and have this as their #1 source of income and livelihood should learn that this industry, despite its recent boom, is still incredibly small, and only a select few are going to make money at this and be able to sustain themselves. If you want to be one of those lucky few - you are going to have to learn how to make those sacrifices, and become smarter not only as a player and become better, but also as an individual and learn how to market yourself so you are more valuable to a team. not all true though, I've seen koreans partying at MLGs lol Yes so have I, but generally that is after they are knocked out of the tournament, or they end up not doing that well.
as far as I'm concerned it was the same for every foreigners I hung out with, they all went partying when they were knocked out
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On January 16 2012 20:07 discobaas wrote:
"they excluded us from everything because we were of no use to them"
Exactly, you were, compared to them, bad players and didn't contribute to anything. This is quite the opposite in the current situation, because only Korean games and a very select few foreigner ones are worth watching.
Then the sacrifice part.
What exactly is your point? Koreans also sacrifice their entire lives for a shitty house to prac in 24/7 and get no/hardly any money unless they win big tournaments, which only few can. Their only advantage is that they don't have to leave the country, because they have the best prac environment right there.
Also foreigners are accepted now by koreans, so if you want to earn some money, go get better.
koreans sacrificed their lives living in their homecountrys, they were still connected with their friends and familys
pholon why did u remove the thread from the sc2 section?
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I would like to hear which progamers are the ones complaining about koreans to foreign teams. I'm going to guess that these progamers are not accomplishing anything and jealously could be the reason for all the talk. Anyways, it's not like the koreans are taking money away from the foreigners - many of the progamers cited by TT1 (which includes himself) are going to struggle to earn money in a foreign team.
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Believe it or not, eSports is like any other sport people watch - those who produce results will be the ones who get paid. You can't be with the a Utah Jazz player whining about how much money is going to the LA Lakers and not to you.
You don't want to drop everything you do in your life (which Koreans do to become a real progamer) and then are not happy with the state of the current skill & salary gap that exists between Koreans & foreigners.
Sadly, you need to understand that the Korean culture is such that gaming is more accepted in their country as a career and not as much in the US/EU. Want to make money or get better? Join the guys who make sc2 their life and replicate what they do.
Dont expect to do progaming half-assed and then get bothered about Koreans winning everything or getting high salaries etc.
T_T
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I find it hard to take this seriously when it's written with such terrible punctuation. That and the fact that there's nothing new in this blog makes it quite uninteresting. Sorry.
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On January 16 2012 20:10 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 20:07 discobaas wrote:
"they excluded us from everything because we were of no use to them"
Exactly, you were, compared to them, bad players and didn't contribute to anything. This is quite the opposite in the current situation, because only Korean games and a very select few foreigner ones are worth watching.
Then the sacrifice part.
What exactly is your point? Koreans also sacrifice their entire lives for a shitty house to prac in 24/7 and get no/hardly any money unless they win big tournaments, which only few can. Their only advantage is that they don't have to leave the country, because they have the best prac environment right there.
Also foreigners are accepted now by koreans, so if you want to earn some money, go get better. koreans sacrificed their lives living in their homecountrys, they were still connected with their friends and familys pholon why did u remove the thread from the sc2 section?
Just like all other sports, if you don't live in the area with the best competition, you will have to go there if you want to become the best/participate in the best tournaments.
Your thread was probably moved because it is a blog. This isn't a discussion, this is you venting your thoughts.
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On January 16 2012 20:10 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 20:07 discobaas wrote:
"they excluded us from everything because we were of no use to them"
Exactly, you were, compared to them, bad players and didn't contribute to anything. This is quite the opposite in the current situation, because only Korean games and a very select few foreigner ones are worth watching.
Then the sacrifice part.
What exactly is your point? Koreans also sacrifice their entire lives for a shitty house to prac in 24/7 and get no/hardly any money unless they win big tournaments, which only few can. Their only advantage is that they don't have to leave the country, because they have the best prac environment right there.
Also foreigners are accepted now by koreans, so if you want to earn some money, go get better. koreans sacrificed their lives living in their homecountrys, they were still connected with their friends and familys
Isn't that just an assumption, though? Many koreans like MC stated that they practice 6 days a week and sometimes even 7, 10+ hours in a teamhouse together with others. They barely do anything else than playing starcraft all day.
I think as far as commitment goes foreigners are not in the position to complain.
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On January 16 2012 20:10 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 20:07 discobaas wrote:
"they excluded us from everything because we were of no use to them"
Exactly, you were, compared to them, bad players and didn't contribute to anything. This is quite the opposite in the current situation, because only Korean games and a very select few foreigner ones are worth watching.
Then the sacrifice part.
What exactly is your point? Koreans also sacrifice their entire lives for a shitty house to prac in 24/7 and get no/hardly any money unless they win big tournaments, which only few can. Their only advantage is that they don't have to leave the country, because they have the best prac environment right there.
Also foreigners are accepted now by koreans, so if you want to earn some money, go get better. koreans sacrificed their lives living in their homecountrys, they were still connected with their friends and familys pholon why did u remove the thread from the sc2 section?
Because there is not discussion in this thread.It's you venting on the current situation that we all know what it is like and we can't help you in any way.
Probably.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote:
Any potential $$ that is going to a korean player is potential money that isn't going to our players, a HUGE portion of the players are being underpaid, the amount of money vs the amount of time we have to put into the game in order to stay competitive is let's say..... very shitty?
You do realise most of the korean players are in the same freaking situation as foreign players right? The truth is only big name players who's had some form of accomplishment in korea are beign picked up and deserved to be picked up. It's not like we see some random code B player we've never heard of getting signed a billion dollars simply because he used to be a mediocre bw pro and had 1 broadcasted game in SC2 = =
+ Show Spoiler +On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote:For alot of foreign players its extremely hard to drop everything in our lives just so we can move to korea in order to keep up with them practice-wise. Why cant we have the same type of training that they have without having to sacrifice a huge portion of our lives? The only foreigner players who wont fall behind the koreans skill wise are the ones who will be willing to sacrifice a huge part of their lives so they can practice over there and alot of those players are either a) young or b) are already financially set, that type of sacrifice wont impact them as much as say a top european or north american foreign player whos in his early-midd twenties and isnt getting paid/isnt willing to sacrifice his life as much as those players which makes that type of sacrifice an extremely high risk thing to do
You make it sound like the koreans don't have to make any sacrifice? You make it sound like all the koreans live in Seoul and DRG didn't move across country to play for MVP. You make it sound like Leenock didn't quit school before completing highschool to become one of the best zergs players. Did any of the foreigners decide to quit highschool to really focus on SC2? Koreans are in the same boat as foreign players, we see these young players living in teamhouses, potentially quitting school to play in a sport. We've also seen players like Puma moving out of korea to a new environment to be on a team too. So who are you to say that foreigners make more sacrifices than koreans?
+ Show Spoiler +On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote:if things dont change then 3 years from now the high level european/na players are going to make their living off of their team salarys/stream while playing the occasional online tournament and the skillgap between them and the koreans is going to grow so much that they'll end up being a non factor in tournaments, that being said ull still have the odd 4-5 well paid foreigners practicing in korea who are going to give them a run for their money at each tournament(however their going to fail 95% of the time simply because were outnumbered), if ur satisfied with that then im happy for u but unfortunately alot of talented players will never achieve their true potential and we'll never get to know what type of player they could have turned into which to me would be the greatest tragedy in esports
1.) why pick the number 3? please explain because I don't see the significance of the number 3
2.) i would believe that many fans would stop watching foreigner streams if the skill gap increases anyway
3.) you make it sound like the future of SCII is going to be about tournament money. No, I'm sorry to break it to you, the future of SCII is going to be salary-based like BW progaming and hopefully even more mature than BW progaming. Mr Chae indicated that the 2011 year of SCII is to help teams to attract sponsors. Hopefully kids like Leenock won't have to quit school to risk everything for something they may or may not succeed in.
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Nothing wrong with koreans dominating.
Something may be wrong if foreigners aren't allowed to try out and compete - but as long as it's purely skill based, meh, that's just fair.
Some foreigners went and stayed in korea during brood:war too.
It's like ... american players have an advantage when it comes to playing in the NBA, but if you are good enough, you'll have a chance. Same with american football. When it comes to Sumo, japan leads the way. If you are norwegian and want to be a professional Cricket player, you are kind of out of luck unless you move somewhere else. And so on ...
If you happen to live somewhere where your chosen sport isn't a big thing, then you have to move to where it is if you want to be the best in the world. It's really that simple. The only unfair thing about it is really if you are banned from moving to korea for some reason ...
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lol no one is "underpaid".. everyone is getting what they deserve. If youre good and win a lot of tournaments, you will get paid accordingly. "potential" doesnt mean shit. a lot of people have potential...like every no-namer in code A. What matters is RESULTS.
"if im not eating or sleeping, im playing SC2" - DRG
If you want to play with the best, you train like the best
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Northern Ireland26345 Posts
It's not JUST hard work that makes Koreans stronger players on average. Despite the regular pounding he gets on here Naniwa is renowned for having a monstrous work ethic. Remember when he first became a monster and destroyed an MLG with some ridiculous sets score like 24-2 or something? The guy was so far ahead of most of the foreign scene based on hard work and some latent talent, but in the end he started stagnating and acknowledged that he had to move to Korea to achieve his personal dream of being the best player in the world.
Incidentally, I don't know what the majority of TL users even want in their players anyway. Naniwa, even before 'probegate' seemed to attract his fair share of haters, but he's one of the few foreigners who seem to reach the 'standards of practice' that we demand of our pro players.
People are saying that Koreans sacrifice a ton to move into pro-houses with the only mitigating factor being that they get to stay in their home country. This is a huge, huge difference compared to what a foreigner sacrifices to move to Korea. I would be perfectly happy to sacrifice a year or two to pursue something like playing professionally if it was within my own culture/within reach of family if things go wrong. I could even envisage (if I was good which I'm not  ) moving to the European mainland at a stretch.
On another point I recall Artosis and others talking about a global beta server when it first came out, and how it had latency reduction and was very playable. Why couldn't Blizzard try and do this by opening a cross-server 'pro's only' server with some kind of fee to be paid for it to make it worth their while.
As it is top pros are making out that laddering on US and EU is becoming redundant, so looking for ways for the foreign scene to improve without upping sticks and all moving to Seoul should be done.
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I dont understand why so many foreign teams are wasting money sending mediocre players to Korea.
You dont speak a work of Korean, so you can thoroughly discuss strats with the KR Pros
Youre most likely hanging out with foreigners all day in GOM house getting drunk
Laddering all day which you could do from home on the KR ladder just with a bit of lag
Do people think its the water?
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On January 16 2012 20:17 1sz2sz3sz wrote:
I dont understand why so many foreign teams are wasting money sending mediocre players to Korea.
You dont speak a work of Korean, so you can thoroughly discuss strats with the KR Pros
Youre most likely hanging out with foreigners all day in GOM house getting drunk
Laddering all day which you could do from home on the KR ladder just with a bit of lag
Do people think its the water?
Most teams do this to try out their players @GSL qualifiers afaik.
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On January 16 2012 20:10 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 20:07 discobaas wrote:
"they excluded us from everything because we were of no use to them"
Exactly, you were, compared to them, bad players and didn't contribute to anything. This is quite the opposite in the current situation, because only Korean games and a very select few foreigner ones are worth watching.
Then the sacrifice part.
What exactly is your point? Koreans also sacrifice their entire lives for a shitty house to prac in 24/7 and get no/hardly any money unless they win big tournaments, which only few can. Their only advantage is that they don't have to leave the country, because they have the best prac environment right there.
Also foreigners are accepted now by koreans, so if you want to earn some money, go get better. koreans sacrificed their lives living in their homecountrys, they were still connected with their friends and familys pholon why did u remove the thread from the sc2 section?
can u stop this please? its getting ridiculous.
Ever saw Cool Running?
Why cant the Jamaicans have the same infrastucture like the other Countries when it comes to bobsledding? Why dont we have the same Infrastructure here in EU like NA, when it comes to American Football, Baseball, ... its so unfair 8¢ lets all cry.
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This blog was..... strange....
Is it about you being underpaid? (I want more moneys!)
Is it about lacking foreign practise environment? (We need better evironment to compete with Koreans!)
Is it about Koreans taking over the SC2 world? (Soon Koreans will go everyone and win everything!).
Is it about you wanting a player association? (We need someone to talk for us!)
And what does the way Koreans handled foreigners during SCBW have to do with anything?
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Well we can say EG trying with the EG house, but imo I can't say that's successful or did do any difference in US, but it might would had do difference in kr...
Well this is maybe off topic, but dno I get your point TT1.
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EPT
