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On January 19 2012 05:53 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 17:36 Cuddle wrote:On January 18 2012 06:33 Xeris wrote: People would throw up at the amount of money casters make T_T!
Why? They get as much money as the events deems their attraction worthy. If I ran an event and had to buy two people to represent the event to all the viewers, I'd make sure they're well payed as well. They more or less the dictate the viewer experience. I'd rather watch a good caster cast a bad game than watch a good game casted by a bad caster. The same way I'd rather watch IdrA play a group stage game (I'm an IdrA fan) than 2 random pros play a finals. Because some of the best potential casters are current players. Like if Idra or Huk were making shit money while practicing 10 hours a day, relying on prize money, they might just say fuck this I'm going into casting because I have an easier lifestyle and I'll make more money. I'm not saying casters just pick up a mic and cast but they definitely have more free time compared to players, less stress and their performance is more forgiving.
I don't think that's a fair comparison. For one, during an event weekend I think the casters have a much rougher schedule than the players do. I don't know how much time, say TB, spends on practicing his SC2 casting outside of doing actual casts (it's a hobby for him after all) but I'm pretty sure Day[9] has a 8 hour work day. There's more to being a caster than recording games and uploading files.
Also, if Stephano plays only 3h a day, should he receive less money for winning than someone who practices 10h a day? No, and I think the same applies to casters. It's the service they provide at an event that they get payed for and the worth of said service is defined by demand and availability, much like any other product/service.
No one would rant if MLG hired the worlds best video editor for 3x as much money as they next guy in line, as long as he/she delivered. It's MLG's money, they do as they please with it to ensure a good return of investment. Right now, investing in popular casters is a good investment.
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On January 19 2012 06:37 Cuddle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 05:53 Condor Hero wrote:On January 18 2012 17:36 Cuddle wrote:On January 18 2012 06:33 Xeris wrote: People would throw up at the amount of money casters make T_T!
Why? They get as much money as the events deems their attraction worthy. If I ran an event and had to buy two people to represent the event to all the viewers, I'd make sure they're well payed as well. They more or less the dictate the viewer experience. I'd rather watch a good caster cast a bad game than watch a good game casted by a bad caster. The same way I'd rather watch IdrA play a group stage game (I'm an IdrA fan) than 2 random pros play a finals. Because some of the best potential casters are current players. Like if Idra or Huk were making shit money while practicing 10 hours a day, relying on prize money, they might just say fuck this I'm going into casting because I have an easier lifestyle and I'll make more money. I'm not saying casters just pick up a mic and cast but they definitely have more free time compared to players, less stress and their performance is more forgiving. I don't think that's a fair comparison. For one, during an event weekend I think the casters have a much rougher schedule than the players do. I don't know how much time, say TB, spends on practicing his SC2 casting outside of doing actual casts (it's a hobby for him after all) but I'm pretty sure Day[9] has a 8 hour work day. There's more to being a caster than recording games and uploading files. Also, if Stephano plays only 3h a day, should he receive less money for winning than someone who practices 10h a day? No, and I think the same applies to casters. It's the service they provide at an event that they get payed for and the worth of said service is defined by demand and availability, much like any other product/service. No one would rant if MLG hired the worlds best video editor for 3x as much money as they next guy in line, as long as he/she delivered. It's MLG's money, they do as they please with it to ensure a good return of investment. Right now, investing in popular casters is a good investment. Okay I already said casters don't have it easy either but players definitely spend more time with the game in general. Stop talking about the "actual event." I know it's hard for Artosis or Day9 to cast 12 hours a day, it's rough. But players spend 8-10 hours a day for a month prior practicing for the event. That's not an easy commitment either.
As for TB, why do I care what he does on his own time? It's awesome he's producing content for the community but he's building his own brand after all and I don't care what he does outside of casting for Sc2.
I'm not saying holy fuck casters are overpaid get this shit in order, obviously there are great casters that would get tons of views even if they were casting ladder noobies. I especially don't care if people like Day9 or Artosis or Tasteless make a ton of money because they've put their heart and soul into the community for years without expecting anything back. Just saying I think casting is less demanding than being a top player.
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It might hurt, but I don't really care. In fact, I wouldn't care if the scene was 100% koreans, or 100% foreigners, or 100% monkeys that are good with computers. As long as I get to see the best games. (ofc, it's always nice to have foreigners to root for, but it's easy to be a fan of a lot of the koreans anyways)
And it'll never happen that way, there will always be a decent number of decent foreigners. Team houses for foreigners will pop up like the EG house to help out along the way.
If you're finding yourself struggling for money, or aren't good enough/charismatic enough to garner enough fans that you're worth keeping around for teams, maybe the SC2 scene isn't right for you.
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Tired of seeing this pathetic attitude of entitlement from low or mediocre foreigner players.
1) Thinks money from nonkorean based teams belongs to them simply because they're nonkorean. It's an international game with an international player base in an international economy, teams can invest in anyone they see fit. It's business, their job is to make money and they do that by investing in players who are going to produce the most results, gather the most fans and get them the most exposure to their sponsors, regardless of their nationality. This isn't a charity. That money isn't yours in the first place just because you're nonkorean and the koreans aren't "stealing" it, they're earning it.
2) Wants to get paid more without producing any results or putting in the same efforts as koreans and guys like huk "sacrificing their life". No shit you have to sacrifice, it's a job when you get paid to play it, not a hobby, and some jobs take sacrifice especially ones that are based on competition and are dominated by one country, apparently you got into the wrong line of work. If you want to earn the most in basketball you have to move to America. If you want to be a marine biologist, you probably are going to have to move out of your hometown in Chicago. That's just the way things are.
And koreans are sacrificing too as many pointed out, they are living in cramped apartments with a bunch of dudes, no privacy, and practicing their ass off 10 hours a day, many have also moved away from their families.. not everyone in korea lives in Seoul. The only pros not in team houses are those who have already put in the hard work and produced tons of results and no doubt gathered top tier practice partners in the process. Sorry no one is going to pay foreigner players big bucks to sit at home and ladder 4 hours a day and never put up any major tourney results while koreans are working hard in cramped team houses 10 hours a day and winning major tourneys. You're not entitled to anything, you have to earn it.
Foreigner teams are investing in foreigner players who are working hard, "sacrificing" and actually produce results like Huk, Idra, go figure... Who knew a competitive game job would reward results?? I'd bet my left nut you don't practice half as much as any of these koreans, and you obviously don't have half the results, and you seem to expect foreign based teams to invest their money in you for no better reason than just because you're a foreigner player. The fact that you have 3,500 TL posts with an average of 3+ a day, many of which are long whines like this, shows maybe you tend to waste a lot of time during your day instead of you know, practicing and improving your situation yourself?
Whining publicly about your pay is also sure to earn you love from the team you're on and encourage any teams in the future to want to pick you up if you're ever teamless so you can whine about them publicly too... /eyeroll By the way, type like an adult if you want business organizations to take "u" seriously.
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darkest44 i actually get paid very well =], wasnt talking about myself i was talking about the scene in general.. i was talking about the guys that i practice with everyday and other talented players who arnt receiving the recognition that they deserve
i just want to see our players being taken care of first and foremost, thats all that im asking for
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On January 19 2012 08:48 mTwTT1 wrote: darkest44 i actually get paid very well =], wasnt talking about myself i was talking about the scene in general.. i was talking about the guys i practice with everyday with and other talented players who arnt receiving the recognition that they deserve
i just want to see our players being taken care of first and foremost, thats all that im asking for
Pfft you need to realize when you back off I'd say especially when people are pretty much disagreeing with you. There are Code B Korean players who can take out majority of A+ foreign players, and they don't get paid - Look at ST_Sound, Code B unknown player beating the crap out of non-Koreans at HSC. Gaming should be skill based and if wages are determined by the skills - it's Koreans who aren't getting paid.
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Cuddle,
I hope you realize that there are more than a few good casters out there and I know I certainly tune out if all I see is "shitty" game after shitty game. I'm willing to bet that if that trend were to continue, the viewership would drop significantly regardless of the players.
Speaking of which there are many players out there who are capable of putting on more than one hat. Like I've said before, it all starts with a few good players.
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I think some people are missing the point. If SC2 lose popularity in the western and we are left with only korean players being relevant to the scene I think this might end up being the end for SC2 as an esport. We have no idea if SC2 will get more popular or not in korea even after the switch from the BW teams. For all we know LoL/Dota 2 might be the next big thing in korean esport and if SC2 lose its support from the west in its current state well the game will simply die.
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TT1 is right on a huge thing. "the infrastructure blows" Whats the point of these 5 man rosters on the top foreign teams? You look at a team like TSL which has just had some of its limbs blown off and it still has a deeper roster than any foreign team because even if their players are undervalued and given terrible conditions, they still have an excellent training environment. You cant really say the same thing about some of these foreign teams. Socke and darkforce might put in the same hours as koreans but they are only practicing with the same few people all the time.
TT1 is a north american player on a european team. Thats how stretched out foreign teams are. His team supports him very well but TT1 is expected to manage his own practice and preparation for tournaments, thats just how things are in the foreigner scene. Some might say MTW taking TT1 onto the team is good cos it shows they are a global team and a cost effective way participate in MLG. But I think its because there hasnt been a real commitment or drive to invest in the development of players for the long term by teams or players (so many collapsed team houses) and teams are just too eager to buy players after they have already made a name for themselves. And now with lots of Koreans on the market why would you buy anything else? We were beginning to see such a thing with the eg house but then they packed up and outsourced it to slayers and kicked the growing talent out of the team.
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Digging all the arm chair coaching and lecturing going on here...
I don't pretend to understand much about the scene, being as I'm not a player or involved directly. As someone who watches the occasion tournament games I enjoy rivalry stories though. I buy into the hype of Foreigner vs Korean games. I get excited when the underdog Foreigner takes games off the invincible Koreans. It makes for a good story. That makes for some great television. With that being said, there will always be these kinds of stories told to draw fans and draw excitement.
I would be inclined to compare it to Canada and the NHL. Canada is exceptional at hockey and has been for a number of years. For a long time, Canada and Russia were the power houses of hockey with everyone else not being able to keep up. Even still, Canada breeds the cream of the crop of talent. Many of the talented hockey players from other countries need to come to North America to play in the NHL (which is dominated by Canadians mostly) to reach their peak and the peak in the business. They have to sacrifice a great deal for this and work very hard. With that being said though, that gap is slowly closing and will continue to close. The world is becoming smaller and the sport is becoming more and more popular, which is fostering growth in other countries. Slowly, but surely, the sport is growing and players outside of Canada are popping up and reaching all-star status. The reason is because the sport is growing in popularity around the world. The training camps and teams are receiving funding because there is a demand for that form of entertainment, and it is becoming a viable career option.
Why are Koreans the best? It might be because of the work ethic, but I personally believe it more so has to do with culture. Canadians aren't "the best" at ice hockey because we practice harder than Americans or Europeans, but rather because it's part of our culture. The game here is so popular, and from a young age it's acceptable to pour your heart into it. In fact, it's looked down upon if you don't! In Korea, it's acceptable to do that for SC2. This isn't to knock anything, but the sport needs to grow and support a system similar to what Korea has. Unfortunately it's not there yet. This process would definitely be sped up by things such as a global server, so people could practice against similar caliber levels of players in a lag free environment. The level of practice available would at least level to a degree. In time this will happen. The gaming world is becoming smaller, but we're not there yet. The culture of gaming has yet to evolve. Once that happens, the demand and stability that you desire for gaming will come with it. That is what Korea has that foreigners do not.
It is my hope that one day competitive gaming will reach the stability and popularity that other sports have. This will probably happen too, but unfortunately that culture is growing right now. Many of the complaints are a result of that - Korea is just ahead of their support of the industry in general. If you want to foster better conditions for the players, foster the culture and industry of gaming first. The talent and competitiveness will follow that. For now, the simple and sometimes unrealistic solution is indeed, "If you want to be among the best, better move to Korea." They have the culture and systems in place to maximum training, whereas the west does not. A global server would really equalize the playing field in this respect. In due time...
PS - This is just my humble opinion as a fan of the sport.
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You don't think those 14-15 year olds are sacrificing a significant part of their life to go into progaming? Dropping out of middle schools and leaving their family to live with 20 others guys in small apartments, in a society where education is feverishly worshipped and people without degrees are blatantly looked down upon sounds like a walk in the park?
Keep in mind for every successful Korean starcraft progamer whose parents say "Oh, I was very much against it at first, but now I'm sooo proud of my son", there are numerous kids who didn't make the cut despite of years of full-time dedication. They are taking a HUGE risk.
If you want a risk free job, then progaming is most likely not the career for you.
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On January 20 2012 04:37 Sein wrote: You don't think those 14-15 year olds are sacrificing a significant part of their life to go into progaming? Dropping out of middle schools and leaving their family to live with 20 others guys in small apartments, in a society where education is feverishly worshipped and people without degrees are blatantly looked down upon sounds like a walk in the park?
Keep in mind for every successful Korean starcraft progamer whose parents say "Oh, I was very much against it at first, but now I'm sooo proud of my son", there are numerous kids who didn't make the cut despite of years of full-time dedication. They are taking a HUGE risk.
If you want a risk free job, then progaming is most likely not the career for you. There are also numerous kids who study for hours and hours that don't even get into the college that they want to because of how competitive studying is in South Korea. What really is a "safe job" for them? :s
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I'm not an expert, but I've been thinking about this for a while and here is my analysis of the difference between Koreans and foreign pros:
Foreigners aren't going to be able to compete with Koreans because they don't(can't) practice as hard(well). The team-house environment is really crucial for cultivating top talent, and there are very few team houses outside of Korea as far as I know. Being able to directly communicate with players and talk about the game outside of the game is a big deal.
I'm guessing the problem lies in the fact that in Korea, team expenses can be primarily spent on lodging, food, equipment, and salaries. Foreigners have to travel a lot for major events, so teams spend money on a variety of players who live in different countries (although usually on the same continent), but who have been able to show good results based on their own work regiment. Their teams can't be as deep because they have to prioritize who they can afford to pay a salary and fly out to major events. Koreans teams are large enough so that various intelligent and focus practice regiments can be devised.
I think that the scene needs to be a bit more localized. Large weekend events are popular because the live audience aspect is such a huge draw, but how successful can they really be with only 5 or so events a year? Compare to the GSL which has a live crowd and killer production value almost every night of the week. Again, this has to do with how spread apart players and teams are. In my opinion, it would be wonderful if MLG settled down in California and got a studio set up. They don't need to travel the country in order to attract competitors. I think people would move to wherever MLG set up their studio to be a part of a GSL-style league. Team houses could locate themselves near studios creating an even better environment for pro gaming.
And none of this would change the way our online tournaments and qualifiers work. We could still have a "Weekend Marathon" tournament every once in a while, but it shouldn't be the main format for foreign esports.
If I'm wrong in any part of my analysis, please let me know because I admit that I don't know the inner workings of team houses or how players are compensated within and outside of Korea. My reasoning is solely based on the premise that the team house environment is what compels Koreans to play at such a level, and that it seems like the foreign scene is not currently adequate to handle that type of structure.
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On January 17 2012 14:17 FXOpen wrote: They don't get a solid income from this, but they increase their chances. Alot of the foreign pros play all their games on stream, and other than a select few, I dont see them analysing their own play properly and taking notes and adjusting to try to make a build work which generally means they aren't practicing properly regardless of who they are practicing with.
Practicing against better players is going to drastically affect the quality of your practice as well. You can utilize smart practice and study and do very very well, but at the highest levels of play you want to practice with people who are going to innovate new ideas, exploit your every weakness because they are actually good enough to do it. Being in a team house would make it easier to focus your practice as well. Players that are able to do well outside of the team house environment are an enigma and usually aren't consistent with their success.
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If you want to get better go to Korea and train there.
If you can't make the sacrifice then quit your whining. Is it harder for a foreigner to go to Korea because of distance etc, comparatively? Probably.
Is the world fair? No.
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such a whiney thread.
If you want more recognition, go earn it.
Not the Koreans fault they are better and teams are willing to pay for it.
just make sure you don't hack to get it
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I think Koreans are also sacrificing a lot by (trying) being a progamer. If you take the average salaries, without prize money, it's probably pathetic, may be even lower than that of westerners. So you cannot say they are advantaged. The ones earning money even among Koreans is a very small fraction of total # players.
I get a sense that TT1 is asking for tourneys for foreigners only and/or teams with foreigners only. Will this help? I doubt it. I doubt it because even if you had a higher portion of foreigners winning money, most foreigners wouldn't be ready to risk their lives, because most of them will still not win prize money.
This can become a real industry only and only if # of fans increase drastically, and being a progamer becomes a real job.
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On January 16 2012 19:59 1sz2sz3sz wrote:
Firebathero droppin truth bombs.
Seriously though, yes, foreigners may be getting the shorter end of the stick but that's because like everybody else is saying there are a lot more S and A class Koreans than S and A class foreigners, and hell most of those foreigners come from Europe as well. Compared to Korea and Europe the Americans really don't have as many good players.
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Perhaps this will help you understand the differenece bewteen Foreign pros and Korean pros. Minor league baseball players make $1200-$4000 a month and they are not that much worse than "the show" players making millions and banging 3 supermodels at time in thier hotel suite. In enterainment only the tippy top pays. That goes for ALL entertainment carrers. Be a doctor or lawyer if you can't handle poverty or excellence.
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On January 19 2012 08:48 mTwTT1 wrote: darkest44 i actually get paid very well =], wasnt talking about myself i was talking about the scene in general.. i was talking about the guys that i practice with everyday and other talented players who arnt receiving the recognition that they deserve
i just want to see our players being taken care of first and foremost, thats all that im asking for
Though it is noble, it is also a naive line of thinking. If 2 players practice equally, the player with the better opponents or the more talented player will be the better player eventually. Basically, EU/NA needs to become better to stay better, so you all have to up your game to get the level they have in Korea. And about sacrificing lives, I don't think I want to live like the koreans in their team houses, but anybody who wants to be succesful over there and in the end over here has to. It is your choice, no one is forcing you
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Wouldn't mind large foreign tournaments which banned korean players from participating just to see who's at the top of the ladder foreigner wise. However, this wouldn't generate as much hype as a korean-filled foreign tournament nowadays, which really is a shame.
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