On January 17 2012 14:17 FXOpen wrote: I think the thing missing from the post is that Koreans are joining foreign teams so they DONT HAVE to practice like Koreans do and still get rewarded.
The infrastructure doesn't exist in the US because "sacrificing my life" isn't in the foreign players vocabulary.
Alot of the korean pros come from poorer backgrounds and are willing to do whatever it takes to succeed. Average Korean player plays more than 8 hours per day, and does it properly making notes and adjusting strategies to the second.
They don't get a solid income from this, but they increase their chances. Alot of the foreign pros play all their games on stream, and other than a select few, I dont see them analysing their own play properly and taking notes and adjusting to try to make a build work which generally means they aren't practicing properly regardless of who they are practicing with.
I would do ANYTHING to just have the chance to sacrifice my life to be a pro. Unfortunately that is quite difficult when you don't already have the chance to live in a pro house as a B teamer or something. Or even have access to the Korean ladder without a decent ping because of your location.
Tons of players with a shit ton of potential aren't even being given chances because it's better to toss a few dollars at a mediocre Korean over a foreigner who hasn't had the chance to practice in a decent environment.
Dude, if your skill level isn't high enough to get noticed on NA/EU and join a decent team, it certainly isn't good enough for Korea. None of the players on the proteams (either korean or foreign) were like "Hey, im masters. Can i join your team?". There are enough of those people around. It has always been about showing skill and then getting picked up. I can bet you that any current korean proteam player has either come from a prior highly skilled RTS setting (bw or wc3 pro) or thoroughly impressed on the ladder - enough to make a name for themselves. For instance, place highly in the weekly cups on a regular basis and you'll get your chance. I get the fact that its easier for koreans to get good practise and hence get good, but the skill roof where it really matters is way higher than low/mid masters.
Your blog/argument is one of the reasons I'm in Korea. And It won't get better, bw teams are switching. A year or 2 and the foreign scene will be obselete/sad TT
On January 17 2012 14:17 FXOpen wrote: I think the thing missing from the post is that Koreans are joining foreign teams so they DONT HAVE to practice like Koreans do and still get rewarded.
The infrastructure doesn't exist in the US because "sacrificing my life" isn't in the foreign players vocabulary.
Alot of the korean pros come from poorer backgrounds and are willing to do whatever it takes to succeed. Average Korean player plays more than 8 hours per day, and does it properly making notes and adjusting strategies to the second.
They don't get a solid income from this, but they increase their chances. Alot of the foreign pros play all their games on stream, and other than a select few, I dont see them analysing their own play properly and taking notes and adjusting to try to make a build work which generally means they aren't practicing properly regardless of who they are practicing with.
I would do ANYTHING to just have the chance to sacrifice my life to be a pro. Unfortunately that is quite difficult when you don't already have the chance to live in a pro house as a B teamer or something. Or even have access to the Korean ladder without a decent ping because of your location.
Tons of players with a shit ton of potential aren't even being given chances because it's better to toss a few dollars at a mediocre Korean over a foreigner who hasn't had the chance to practice in a decent environment.
Dude, if your skill level isn't high enough to get noticed on NA/EU and join a decent team, it certainly isn't good enough for Korea. None of the players on the proteams (either korean or foreign) were like "Hey, im masters. Can i join your team?". There are enough of those people around. It has always been about showing skill and then getting picked up. I can bet you that any current korean proteam player has either come from a prior highly skilled RTS setting (bw or wc3 pro) or thoroughly impressed on the ladder - enough to make a name for themselves. For instance, place highly in the weekly cups on a regular basis and you'll get your chance. I get the fact that its easier for koreans to get good practise and hence get good, but the skill roof where it really matters is way higher than low/mid masters.
I'm on a decent team and I am definitely not low/mid masters. I don't ladder much. It is just annoying that when teammates are not online I have no viable practice. I wish I had more structure to everything.
On January 17 2012 08:55 avilo wrote: Either way...why even focus on korean players getting teams, when imo a bigger issue is why are casters being so overpaid compared to the players that are even making their job possible in the first place? I see very few players gone caster or casters that make it big that actively try to find ways to help out the player population...they just mostly seem to get their fame and then go on from there with their own personal journey forgetting that the only reason they can cast is cause there are a kajillion players trying to make it up the ranks and playing ggs.
There are probably about 150 SC2 players that could provide games that I'd could enjoy, there are probably less than 10 casters that I enjoy listening to. You know who they are, they're everywhere and they're great at what they do, I'd be willing to bet that many of them are harder workers than many NA aspiring pros.
As for your assertion that casters that make it big not actively trying to help the community? LOL.
Ever heard of Total Biscuit's charity streams?
MrBitter's 12 weeks with the pros (he did two....INCREDIBLY helpful for the community AND for NA players getting their name out)?
The Day[9] Daily?
Moletrap and Diggity's english casts of the Korean BW scene, done in STAGGERING volumes along with casters like Rise and Klazart NuketheStars?
State of the Game?
On January 17 2012 23:02 desRow wrote: Your blog/argument is one of the reasons I'm in Korea. And It won't get better, bw teams are switching. A year or 2 and the foreign scene will be obselete/sad TT
This isn't sad, it may hurt certain players but will ensure that the consumer gets the best product possible.
On January 17 2012 08:55 avilo wrote: Either way...why even focus on korean players getting teams, when imo a bigger issue is why are casters being so overpaid compared to the players that are even making their job possible in the first place? I see very few players gone caster or casters that make it big that actively try to find ways to help out the player population...they just mostly seem to get their fame and then go on from there with their own personal journey forgetting that the only reason they can cast is cause there are a kajillion players trying to make it up the ranks and playing ggs.
There are probably about 150 SC2 players that could provide games that I'd could enjoy, there are probably less than 10 casters that I enjoy listening to. You know who they are, they're everywhere and they're great at what they do, I'd be willing to bet that many of them are harder workers than many NA aspiring pros.
As for your assertion that casters that make it big not actively trying to help the community? LOL.
Ever heard of Total Biscuit's charity streams?
MrBitter's 12 weeks with the pros (he did two....INCREDIBLY helpful for the community AND for NA players getting their name out)?
The Day[9] Daily?
Moletrap and Diggity's english casts of the Korean BW scene, done in STAGGERING volumes along with casters like Rise and Klazart NuketheStars?
On January 17 2012 23:02 desRow wrote: Your blog/argument is one of the reasons I'm in Korea. And It won't get better, bw teams are switching. A year or 2 and the foreign scene will be obselete/sad TT
This isn't sad, it may hurt certain players but will ensure that the consumer gets the best product possible.
its sad because it will be too late for western teams to try to make houses and make it work being a progamer will be a impossible dream if the market is overflowed with koreans
I do think teams need to start setting up team houses. EG has one, and Reign are trying, there are also a couple of others, but there needs to be more, at some point your would hope that it becomes a standard for foreign teams to have teamhouses, but most seem very reluctant to do so (or is it just too hard to set up properly?). Otherwise Koreans will just steamroll, and only those who go to Korea are gonna have a chance.
On January 17 2012 23:02 desRow wrote: Your blog/argument is one of the reasons I'm in Korea. And It won't get better, bw teams are switching. A year or 2 and the foreign scene will be obselete/sad TT
This isn't sad, it may hurt certain players but will ensure that the consumer gets the best product possible.
I agree with desRow. It is sad. Best product is subjective. If there are no foreigners in the scene then SC2 will lose lots of popularity. I believe the best product for the health of SC2 is a combination of great play and a foreign presence.
Think of all the sports that the United States does not have a strong presence in on a global scale. Yes there is a niche market for them (soccer), but overall they are not nearly as popular as basketball, football, and baseball. BW has a niche following in this country while SC2 is much more popular. If this continues a lot of SC2 fans will lose interest and move onto the next thing and SC2 as we know it will fade into a niche following like its predecessor.
On January 17 2012 14:17 FXOpen wrote: I think the thing missing from the post is that Koreans are joining foreign teams so they DONT HAVE to practice like Koreans do and still get rewarded.
The infrastructure doesn't exist in the US because "sacrificing my life" isn't in the foreign players vocabulary.
Alot of the korean pros come from poorer backgrounds and are willing to do whatever it takes to succeed. Average Korean player plays more than 8 hours per day, and does it properly making notes and adjusting strategies to the second.
They don't get a solid income from this, but they increase their chances. Alot of the foreign pros play all their games on stream, and other than a select few, I dont see them analysing their own play properly and taking notes and adjusting to try to make a build work which generally means they aren't practicing properly regardless of who they are practicing with.
I would do ANYTHING to just have the chance to sacrifice my life to be a pro. Unfortunately that is quite difficult when you don't already have the chance to live in a pro house as a B teamer or something. Or even have access to the Korean ladder without a decent ping because of your location.
Tons of players with a shit ton of potential aren't even being given chances because it's better to toss a few dollars at a mediocre Korean over a foreigner who hasn't had the chance to practice in a decent environment.
Dude, if your skill level isn't high enough to get noticed on NA/EU and join a decent team, it certainly isn't good enough for Korea. None of the players on the proteams (either korean or foreign) were like "Hey, im masters. Can i join your team?". There are enough of those people around. It has always been about showing skill and then getting picked up. I can bet you that any current korean proteam player has either come from a prior highly skilled RTS setting (bw or wc3 pro) or thoroughly impressed on the ladder - enough to make a name for themselves. For instance, place highly in the weekly cups on a regular basis and you'll get your chance. I get the fact that its easier for koreans to get good practise and hence get good, but the skill roof where it really matters is way higher than low/mid masters.
I'm on a decent team and I am definitely not low/mid masters. I don't ladder much. It is just annoying that when teammates are not online I have no viable practice. I wish I had more structure to everything.
I was basing my post on the ranks you have on your profile. I agree focused practice/pracc with teammates gives benefits. But ladder is still a viable option. It's a good a chance as any to work on mechanics and gives further knowledge about styles your regular practise partners dont usually exhibit. If anything it goes back to my post about private servers/integrated lag-less realms.
The part about Korean gamers not sacrificing as much really ticks me off especially after reading Perfectman's interview .Koreans in the progaming houses don't even see their family and friends even though they stay in the same country. Not even a lot of free time during weekends and holidays.They sacrificed their childhood and other career options leaving them with no academic and technical skills upon retirement. In other aspects, i doubt anyone will say that foreign progamers sacrificed as much as Koreans.
Sure Koreans's 8 hours of structured training > 8 hours of ladder. But foreigners don't even work as hard as the Koreans even if we only consider the hours and not the quality. They always fall back to the " we want a balanced lifestyle" excuse.
If thousands of foreigners put in 12-15 hours of practice everyday and the foreigner scene still underperforms because no team supports the players, no coaches are there to give them builds and evaluate them, then sure we can sympathize. But not when it's common knowledge that foreign progamers are LAZIER than their Korean counterparts except for a select few ( as said by Avilo).
Keep in mind also that Korean progamers in the early 2000 suffered a lot and yet they put in countless hours eventhough they had no guarantee that they can make a career out of the game. Can't come in with the attitude of " I will only work hard if you guarantee that I will be rich from playing the game"
On January 18 2012 01:03 IdrA wrote: sc1 teams didnt want foreigners cuz we sucked sc2 teams want koreans cuz we suck got to korea or get a different job
Greg are.... are you okay?
-edit: I just don't think I've ever heard you say or post anything self detrimental before....
On January 18 2012 01:03 IdrA wrote: sc1 teams didnt want foreigners cuz we sucked sc2 teams want koreans cuz we suck got to korea or get a different job
quintessence of pro gaming for foreign players
should be written somewhere on a stone, on a lost and desertic island
From a teams perspective, you either bring results or exposure. Or ideally, a mixture of both. To make a broad statement; currently foreigners are good for exposure and Koreans are good for the results. For foreigners to make the money they want, you need to do one of the other fairly well. There are manyyyyy foreigners who also make more money than they should in relation to results and Koreans. For example, EU teams :D
It's unfortunately a business, and teams are going to prioritize who they pay the most based on results; which are usually Koreans.
On January 18 2012 01:03 IdrA wrote: sc1 teams didnt want foreigners cuz we sucked sc2 teams want koreans cuz we suck got to korea or get a different job
if anything, foreign teams should recruit koreans and force them to live in the US or europe.
if eg made puma live in america and forced him to everyday play with americans, then that would benefit the american scene because there is only 1 good terran in america (select) that they can even play with.
tbh, violet is living in america now and foreigners should jump at the chance to ask him for practice games.
If anything, link this thread to future "I wanna go pro" threads.
Have the talent, time, money, passion, and self-discipline to succeed? Nope, get your ass to Korea or else all these traits are irrelevant.
I actually enjoy all the resentment and biased (as in, all the undeserved hype) favoritism based on nationality. If you head over to the "most underrated players thread", apparently half the foreigners that have shown absolutely little to no results are all underrated gravely... because they uh... are better looking? Speak English? Stomps shitty N.A./E.U. masters players? This is the part I'm frustrated about.
However, once international tournament times roll around, foreigners have mostly been dominated by Koreans (save for a select few that trained in Korea) just like the way it was in Broodwar, flipping the overhype bandwagon upside down. And now that the better Korean players are getting picked up by foreign teams, the foreigners who's jobs are threatened come out and put the blame MOSTLY on the system without addressing the issue of work ethics due to living standard difference? Absolutely GOLD, I'm loving it. Sounds a lot like the "dey turk errr jerbs" reaction to me.
Edit: LOL Idra, quoted for TLDR'ing what I said in 3 lines.
On January 18 2012 01:03 IdrA wrote: sc1 teams didnt want foreigners cuz we sucked sc2 teams want koreans cuz we suck got to korea or get a different job
On January 18 2012 01:03 IdrA wrote: sc1 teams didnt want foreigners cuz we sucked sc2 teams want koreans cuz we suck got to korea or get a different job
He said it best. He knows it best better than anyone. If you want reward, you need to put up results... Listen to him
On January 17 2012 08:55 avilo wrote: Either way...why even focus on korean players getting teams, when imo a bigger issue is why are casters being so overpaid compared to the players that are even making their job possible in the first place? I see very few players gone caster or casters that make it big that actively try to find ways to help out the player population...they just mostly seem to get their fame and then go on from there with their own personal journey forgetting that the only reason they can cast is cause there are a kajillion players trying to make it up the ranks and playing ggs.
There are probably about 150 SC2 players that could provide games that I'd could enjoy, there are probably less than 10 casters that I enjoy listening to. You know who they are, they're everywhere and they're great at what they do, I'd be willing to bet that many of them are harder workers than many NA aspiring pros.
As for your assertion that casters that make it big not actively trying to help the community? LOL.
Ever heard of Total Biscuit's charity streams?
MrBitter's 12 weeks with the pros (he did two....INCREDIBLY helpful for the community AND for NA players getting their name out)?
The Day[9] Daily?
Moletrap and Diggity's english casts of the Korean BW scene, done in STAGGERING volumes along with casters like Rise and Klazart NuketheStars?
State of the Game?
On January 17 2012 23:02 desRow wrote: Your blog/argument is one of the reasons I'm in Korea. And It won't get better, bw teams are switching. A year or 2 and the foreign scene will be obselete/sad TT
This isn't sad, it may hurt certain players but will ensure that the consumer gets the best product possible.
its sad because it will be too late for western teams to try to make houses and make it work being a progamer will be a impossible dream if the market is overflowed with koreans
I just like to point out that you're still missing the fact here. Congratulations on the chance to train in Korea, you'll be miles ahead of your peers soon. However, as viewers/spectators of this e-sport, I, and many others, couldn't possibly care any less where the top players, or any player in the scene are from as long as they produce the best quality games. You keep speaking as if it's a terrible thing if western teams essentially become Korean teams, where you went as far as to use the phrase "overflowed with koreans". I mean... come on, thousands of not-good-enough aspiring young Korean progamers sacrifice everything and are rewarded nothing in return, should I sympathize with foreigners (who's living conditions are 99% of the times better than what's found in Korea) more over these Korean kids? Nope, I don't, and neither should you or anyone else.
I like the BW scene the way it is now free of foreigners just fine, thank you very much. For the same thing to happen to SC2? Perfect, bring it on, I want my higher quality games please!
Lastly to add, I like having diversity. I like having more competition, which would ultimately result in even higher levels of play, I would love it if foreigners could compete on equal footing with Koreans, but because of cultural, living standards and structural obstacles, this isn't going to happen so I am simply stating the facts.
EPT
