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On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote: Why cant we have the same type of training that they have without having to sacrifice a huge portion of our lives?
Not sure about what I'm about to say, but aren't progamers in Korea also sacrificing a huge portion of their lives to persue their dream? Most of them leave their families and friends, sacrifice their studies, just to walk down the road that is called a 'progamer'.
Granted, most of them still can visit their family and friends easier since they are located in South Korea (or even Seoul), compared to somebody from, say, europe or north america, who moves to South Korea to train. But do you even need to move to Korea to become an S-class player?
If you want to practise on the ladder (and even those in team houses do ladder as practise from time to time), you should do it on the Korean server where the competition is of higher level. But you can do that comfortable from NA as well (as seen when Puma was in the EG house).
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Can't do this part time bro but I don't blame you for thinking this way.
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I'm pretty sure Ret did get his chance to apply for his pro gamer license for sc1 in Korea.
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All my views have allready been expressed in some way or another. But im amazed to see how everbody accepts the servers as realms set in stone, which can never be altered. Integrated server play it's perhaps the most vital part for a blooming scene, cross pollination and exchange between communities and a sense of world wide community. I remember Blizz said they wouldn't allow private servers (and LAN...), so they clearly need to step up their shit. If the vehicle of e-Sports (to borrow that illustrius term) continues in its ragged form it will hinder the development of the game so much.
How can it be acceptable that the finals of the most prestiguous tournaments always will have the dark shadow of dropping out looming over it?
How can it be acceptable that the current set up effectively eliminates any cross-continental online tournaments?
How can it be acceptable that you should have to buy three fucking accounts just to participate in online tournaments?
How can it be acceptable that we still have the issue of lag even within servers on a game whose perquel fixed that (via private servers) years ago.
I mean, Blizz has been bickering with and bitching at KESPA for years because they want to want to dip their fingers in the pie, which they did nothing to develop. They clearly dont give two shits about e-Sports, and try to make up for it by holding blizzcon which is just a huge promo-gig for their new titles. The guy who wrote C++ or any other platform doesnt have intellectual property rights for everything developed from it. If we accept the current situation as given by Blizz, sc2 will never remain afloat in the long run. Remember the few times the computers crashed or the power went out at OSL/MSL/PL finals, and the game was called by refs - remember that fucking outrage? Any serious competititive activity should try as hard as possible to eliminate such flaws.
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Russian Federation823 Posts
On January 16 2012 22:31 Jaxtyk wrote:
I'm pretty sure Ret did get his chance to apply for his pro gamer license for sc1 in Korea.
I think many have already posted that he practiced under unfavorable circumstances, so "his chance" could have been better with more support or a smaller language barrier.
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This might be ignorant, but I still don't understand why the gap is so big between Korea and the rest of the world.
- Money and interest in the foreign world into SC2 has been at an all time high.
- Lots of players have been moving to Korea temporarily to improve. Wouldn't they sort of bring a higher game when they get back to their home countries and thus increase the level back at their own localities
- The game itself has decreased the skill gap between Koreans and the rest of the world in terms of skill requirement and overall necessity for practice.
- Koreans have themselves been practicing on the NA/EU ladders occasionally and even moving to foreign teams. Shouldn't that also improve the level of training non-Koreans get?
- Team houses have been popping up... this hasn't been very common, but from the few which have been in existence, you would've expected some of them to improve the game of the people in them.
- There are foreigners who earn a good enough living that they can afford to practice almost as much as the Koreans without having to worry about income sources (players like Destiny)
And also on the other side of things, Koreans also dedicate so much of their lives into it. Players like DRG and Losira weren't from Seoul but moved there to pursue their careers. Not too long ago (and I believe even now) a lot of Koreans don't get paid a regular salary and up till recently seldom had any tournaments they could win any money from.
Could it just be that Starcraft is just in the Korean genes?
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i really dislike the op saying foreigners would have to sacrifice so much of their lifes. the thing is koreans are way better overall because THEY SACRIFICE MORE THAN OTHERS....you want to be on even foot with them and yet wanna sactifice less than they do?
i smell the typical " i dont want to have koreans here because they making me having no chance at all to win a tournament, because im way more lazy than them. i want to be succesful without sacrifices" behind the message, altough im not sure...
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TT1, you always come off pessimistic sounding to me. Every post ive read.
Anyhow, Uhhh its exciting for the fans. For koreans to be on foreigner teams. Besides shudnt the foreigner getto practice with their my little korean?
But yeah..if you dont think your time is worth the effort, you really only have the options of spending more time, making your time more efficient, or quitting. I guess get a players prtition for team houses?
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No shit TT1.
I love your posts but at the same time after I read everything you say its always like: 'yeah so what, what are you going to do about it?'
You don't like the way SC2 is headed? I fully agree. What can I tell you? Fucking quit then. I barely play anymore, I just enjoy watching the pros go at it. I'm more happier just being a part of the community/as a fan than the stress of being a player.
You think the foreign scene is handicapped? Korean's have advantage? I fully agree. What can I tell you? Its better to stay in college, graduate, and get a real fucking job. Than the risk of trying to go pro. When only 2 pros (HuK & IdrA) have made more than 25k in Tournament winnings in NA? I'm going to laugh when a lot of these kids that drop out to try and go pro, only to continue sitting in their mom's basement thinking it will make them better.
This isn't news though?
Why don't you just go to Korea bro? You're one of the best NA players without a doubt. Just fucking go to Korea long term. Fuck even desrow is there. So maybe you're behind the curve now? How bad do you want to be the best? Do you even need to come make a blog about this? What are you trying to accomplish? Book your Korean flight ticket and move into the Gom house.
-Also on a side note, aren't you pretty good buds with KaKi? If you're looking for the NA scene to catch up to the KOR scene in the gaming house format, why not join Reign over mTw? Isn't KaKi in the Reign gaming house? Don't they have that up and going now? Sounds like a great opportunity.
Great OP though, love your shit.
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On January 16 2012 19:59 Snowbear wrote:
After reading this and the "golden and dragon leave slayers"-thread, I wonder if esports will actually ever become big.
- Very few players make a good amount of money. The reason why salaries are not public, is because they are low.
- The interest in gaming is not as high as we might think.
- Organisations like NASL, MLG and GOMtv seem to have a very hard time.
- Starcraft 2 is not that popular in Korea.
Basicly we see players playing 10 hours a day for.... almost nothing?
Do you guys think that players will make a good amount of money from esports in the future? Do you think things will change? Because I can't imagine it atm.
This is extremly complicated but i thought about that alot aswell.
But you also have to consider, that you cant really judge how MLG is performing, only because they dismiss some people.
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On January 16 2012 19:42 mTwTT1 wrote:
a HUGE portion of the players are being underpaid, the amount of money vs the amount of time we have to put into the game in order to stay competitive is let's say..... very shitty?
This is a statement I have an issue with. No one is forcing you guys to be progamers, you know that you are entering a relatively new industry and it sounds like you are already asking for handouts. "I TRY REALLY HARD, GIMME MONEY!" That's not how it works.
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Netherlands6142 Posts
On January 16 2012 23:05 pdd wrote:
This might be ignorant, but I still don't understand why the gap is so big between Korea and the rest of the world.
- Money and interest in the foreign world into SC2 has been at an all time high.
- Lots of players have been moving to Korea temporarily to improve. Wouldn't they sort of bring a higher game when they get back to their home countries and thus increase the level back at their own localities
- The game itself has decreased the skill gap between Koreans and the rest of the world in terms of skill requirement and overall necessity for practice.
- Koreans have themselves been practicing on the NA/EU ladders occasionally and even moving to foreign teams. Shouldn't that also improve the level of training non-Koreans get?
- Team houses have been popping up... this hasn't been very common, but from the few which have been in existence, you would've expected some of them to improve the game of the people in them.
- There are foreigners who earn a good enough living that they can afford to practice almost as much as the Koreans without having to worry about income sources (players like Destiny)
And also on the other side of things, Koreans also dedicate so much of their lives into it. Players like DRG and Losira weren't from Seoul but moved there to pursue their careers. Not too long ago (and I believe even now) a lot of Koreans don't get paid a regular salary and up till recently seldom had any tournaments they could win any money from.
Could it just be that Starcraft is just in the Korean genes?
Genes/it being in the water is bullshit. Here's what two reasons I think cause the gap
- Koreans had a headstart. Coming from a deeply ingrained BW background the scene quickly developed in KR and were the first to start pro tournaments. Practising with the best makes you better so this headstart only reinforces itselfs and keeps on doing do
- Foreigners aren't tackling the problem properly. You wanna be the best you need to practise with the best. I.e., in this case, go to Korea. The teamhouses are nice and all but you 1) don't practise with the best and 2) they don't follow the same structure as the Korean ones. (KR teamhouse = you have a cook and a cleaner and you sit and play SC all day. Don't want to be too assumptuous etc here but this isn't the case for the EG guys I don't believe).
On top of that it isn't beneficial for teams to send players to Korea. Mtw can boast that Dima did well in the Korean grid of HSC4 while Mouz' Morrow has nothing much to show for (yet after enough Korean training I have faith Morrow will >> Dimaga over time).
Also don't understand your points very well.
- Money and interest in the foreign world into SC2 has been at an all time high.
Yes but where is it going? I mean MLG hands out prizemoney but without having the whole of Code S play (and probably A as well) is this tournament as competitive as it needs to be?
- Lots of players have been moving to Korea temporarily to improve. Wouldn't they sort of bring a higher game when they get back to their home countries and thus increase the level back at their own localities
Dont understand this point
- The game itself has decreased the skill gap between Koreans and the rest of the world in terms of skill requirement and overall necessity for practice.
Assuming you mean "decreased from broodwar": apparently not.
- Koreans have themselves been practicing on the NA/EU ladders occasionally and even moving to foreign teams. Shouldn't that also improve the level of training non-Koreans get?
I highly doubt Nestea/MVP practise on US, and if they do it's only to explore the playstyle.
- There are foreigners who earn a good enough living that they can afford to practice almost as much as the Koreans without having to worry about income sources (players like Destiny)
If Destiny can make an income without having to be good what insentive is there. No idea why this is an argument for gap-closure.
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SoCal, USA3955 Posts
Koreans > Foreigners. Start treating it like a real job.
Laddering all day isn't real practicing. If you are on a team you have people to practice against to get better.
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I don't know too much about what happened in BW, although I did watch Artosis's documentary following Tyler when he was in Korea as part of a pro-team. It seemed pretty open and fair from what I saw there. It also seems like in SC2 GOMTV have gone out of their way to involve foreign players even at the expense of young Korean talent.
As far as the Korean teams go, Koreans see the foreign scene as being composed of a very few top players who are decent. It's pretty obvious that there are many young unknown Korean pro-team players who are way better than some well known foreign players. Idra, Huk, Naniwa, ok they can compete as equals. I see Desrow, Destiny, Haypro etc all heading to Korea (after not setting the foreign scene alight) for what I fear is certain doom and failure in a much harsher environment (though I hope not).
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90% of foreigners would probably be better off quitting. They are never going to get respectable salaries because they aren't good enough and they can't market themselves the way the few successful foreigners have done.
No one is really taking money out of their pockets, they just aren't worth money. SC2 foreign teams have more money/interest in the game than they did BW but if it wasn't for Korean players they would probably be closing up shop eventually anyway as the skill gap increases. It's not like the foreign players are getting a raw deal here, they had a huge opportunity with SC2 that they never really had with BW, but most still can't succeed.
It can be done if you're hungry enough for it, a few foreigners are evidence of that, but no one is going to pay foreigners to be as bad as they were in BW, that's just not realistic. Foreign SC2 will die before that ever happens, it's almost to a point where the Korean players are the ones keeping afloat right now
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On January 16 2012 19:59 1sz2sz3sz wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NfhXK.jpg)
wtf is that supposed to mean?
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On January 17 2012 00:38 Br3ezy wrote:wtf is that supposed to mean?
Thats Firebathero, Korean BW progamer.
He's basically annoyed that there are people who think they can just become a progamer and be successful when in fact, they have no idea what it takes.
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There are a couple of points I would like to make.
1. With the expected increase of prize money and local tournaments it should help increase the infrastructure outside of Korea. The Korean model is possible because they have a high paying tournament in a centralized location. Forming a team house is possible because all the players know that they need to live in that area in order to participate in the tournament. If MLG decided to run all of its tournaments in a centralized location then as a result, team houses will pop up in that location. As it is, since all tournaments are spread across the world the extra costs associated with travel decrease the amount of funds available to pay rent for a house of 10 players.
2. Just becaues Koreans play 12 hours a day it does not mean that all players should. The reason why this is possible is becaue unlike real sports, you can play starcraft 12 hours a day. It is physically impossible to play any real sport consistantly for that long so a limitation in practice time is created. A players organization might be needed to lower the amount of time spent playing and to increase the quality of life of players since I feel that 12 hours a day, 6 days a week is ridiculous. Stephano is a good example of someone who puts in far less than what is expected of top players and has solid results. It is all about being efficient in the time spent playing.
3. Non-Korean teams need coaches. I think a big factor on why players outside of Korea are weaker than their Korean counterparts is lack of motivation and general laziness. Teams need to start seeing the value of adding a coach since I think they will only improve results. I do not think that it is necessary to have a coach who is well versed in Starcraft either. The coach just needs to organize a practice regiment, make sure players are following it, and discipline the players that are not. For example, he can set up all the practice partners for the day, gather replays of future opponents, and decide on who will make a flight or not to a tournament based on the effort put in during the weeks leading up to the event.
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How can Destiny live off of streaming? Is it the numbers he gets?
In which case you should be marketing your own name to up your stream numbers and gt invites to invitationals
The reason why IdrA and Huk get paid so much isn't solely through winning they make sure you know who they are in Starcraft
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On January 17 2012 00:46 don_kyuhote wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 00:38 Br3ezy wrote:On January 16 2012 19:59 1sz2sz3sz wrote: wtf is that supposed to mean? Thats Firebathero, Korean BW progamer. He's basically annoyed that there are people who think they can just become a progamer and be successful when in fact, they have no idea what it takes.
i see your FBH and i counter with
![[image loading]](http://wescomer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/anyone-can-cook.jpg)
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EPT
