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Aparently I never learn my lesson of not posting sensitive questions on the internet, but here we go anyway...
(Note that the question was about teen pregnancy)
So I read this hard viewpoint question in our english book a few days ago, and it was something like;
If a girl gets pregnant (not intentional), and the guy doesn't want to keep the baby but the girl decides to keep it anyway, should the guy then be tied down the next 18 years of his life because of bad luck (IE, the condom broke etc) because the mother doesn't want to abort or give it away?
IMO this is a really hard question, as I can see the why the mother wouldn't want to abort or something like that. But I can also see things from the guys point of view, that maybe this was a "One-night stand gone wrong" and he has to drop out of school or something like that to get a not so well-paid job to support the mother and child.
I thought this could be a good topic to discuss, as the western world has alot of teenage pregnancy and I was just wondering what other people would think about this.
As always, try to keep the discussion civilized 
PS
If you think that I meant anything offensive, I probably didn't. I have the NaNiwa syndrome of not being able to express my opinions the right way, if you know what I mean.
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I think the guy should not be obligated to be there as a dad for the kid, and the mother is really REALLY dumb she wants to keep the baby. I only think this though if the condom broke or something like that, if the guy just had unprotected sex with her then he's an idiot and is responsible for his actions.
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morally speaking the man should be obligated to support the child even if it means sacrificing his future, but that doesn't always happen in the real world.
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It's not always the case a guy is "tied down for the next 18 years of his life" after he fathers a child. You don't have to marry the woman or move in with her or anything. However, if she wants you to be financially responsible you do have to pay child support, at least in the U.S.. I think if the mother chooses to keep the baby even against the father's wishes, the father should still have financial obligations because he still had a part in the matter.
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I don't think it is a hard question at all. When you choose to do something you must take full responsibility for the outcome whether or not everything goes the way you wanted it do. This applies to all facets of life.
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What about, if the guy want to keep the child, and she doesnt? Should she be able to just get an abortion, because its her child?
Also why the fuck would we be offended by this? wtf man!?
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United States5162 Posts
I think it's an impossible thing to get right.
It's wrong to force a guy to pay for a child based on an honest mistake. It's also wrong for a guy to go around impregnating girls without worry of the consequences. It's also wrong to let a child grow up in squalor.
All in all, people need to stop being so dumb about sex.
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Also why the fuck would we be offended by this? wtf man!?
I don't know, because you misunderstood what I meant because I'm pretty awful when it comes to expressing my own opinions?
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"With great power comes great responsibilities." Batman.
If he got the girl pregnant, it is his fault. Use a better condom, learn to put it, give the girl a day after pill, teach your boys to swim backwards, I don´t care. Deal with it.
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It may be a mistake, but when you have intercourse with someone, you assume the risks and responsibilities. You are the product of your own actions.
That would be like getting into a car accident and suing your car maker...it doesn't make sense.
(if you want to nitpick, yeah, it has happened, but unless the car maker actually makes the car faulty, they have no liability.)
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On December 22 2011 02:32 TiTanIum_ wrote:
"With great power comes great responsibilities." Batman.
If he got the girl pregnant, it is his fault. Use a better condom, learn to put it, give the girl a day after pill, teach your boys to swim backwards, I don´t care. Deal with it.
did you even read the OP? you're totally off the mark.
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Take responsibility for one's accidents is considered part of being an adult. A human being's life is worth more than one's free time.
EDIT: It also REALLY benches on what "being a Father" means. If it means having a 9-5 and going to night school, then it shouldn't be a problem of ethics should it? Then again, if the mother and father's physical well being are put in danger then an argument could be made. I assume this is suburban teenagers, so the second case is not likely the case you were thinking about.
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I see it as both parties consented to having sex. They BOTH know of the possibility of pregnancy but took the risk anyways. He should take responsibility for his actions.
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On December 22 2011 02:22 Myles wrote:
I think it's an impossible thing to get right.
It's wrong to force a guy to pay for a child based on an honest mistake. It's also wrong for a guy to go around impregnating girls without worry of the consequences. It's also wrong to let a child grow up in squalor.
All in all, people need to stop being so dumb about sex.
If you're concerned about a guy having to pay for his 'honest mistake', then where's your sympathy for the girl who would have to raise a child with only herself supporting it? Or the child without a father?
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What class is this for? That will sway my answer a bit.
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United States5162 Posts
On December 22 2011 02:36 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 02:22 Myles wrote:
I think it's an impossible thing to get right.
It's wrong to force a guy to pay for a child based on an honest mistake. It's also wrong for a guy to go around impregnating girls without worry of the consequences. It's also wrong to let a child grow up in squalor.
All in all, people need to stop being so dumb about sex. If you're concerned about a guy having to pay for his 'honest mistake', then where's your sympathy for the girl who would have to raise a child with only herself supporting it? Or the child without a father?
While I never directly said it, it's implied through the second sentence. I also think it's kind of ironic that guys seem to hold all the responsibility in the situation. The girl also decided to have sex and take on the potential consequences. The fact that there are alternatives to having the child is where a lot of complications are involved, too.
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When you have sex, you're always banking on the severe improbability of getting pregnant when you use contraception...
But only abstinence is 100% effective, so keep that in mind. If you get the girl pregant, you better man the fuck up and be prepared to deal with raising a child. It's your own damn fault.
Simple as that
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On December 22 2011 02:20 mucker wrote:
I don't think it is a hard question at all. When you choose to do something you must take full responsibility for the outcome whether or not everything goes the way you wanted it do. This applies to all facets of life.
this.
User was warned for this post
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Sadly as much as it sucks that a man can get forced into being the father of a child he doesn't want while a woman always have the option of abortion, there really is no better alternative. You can't force an abortion upon a woman and a child always have the right to know who is father is when possible.
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It's the least worst solution, that's why.
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This situation will always exist and will always be unfair to the man as long as abortion exists as a legal option. It basically says that the woman should have choice but the man should have none. Arguments against abortion or for aside, this is obviously and inherently unfair and unjust. That being said, society could not function without requiring men to pay for their children. You are basically left with an option of being unjust or being unrealistic.
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On December 22 2011 02:39 Kralic wrote:
What class is this for? That will sway my answer a bit.
English class, about youth problems (especially in Britain).
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On December 22 2011 02:43 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 02:36 Grumbels wrote:On December 22 2011 02:22 Myles wrote:
I think it's an impossible thing to get right.
It's wrong to force a guy to pay for a child based on an honest mistake. It's also wrong for a guy to go around impregnating girls without worry of the consequences. It's also wrong to let a child grow up in squalor.
All in all, people need to stop being so dumb about sex. If you're concerned about a guy having to pay for his 'honest mistake', then where's your sympathy for the girl who would have to raise a child with only herself supporting it? Or the child without a father? While I never directly said it, it's implied through the second sentence. I also think it's kind of ironic that guys seem to hold all the responsibility in the situation. The girl also decided to have sex and take on the potential consequences. The fact that there are alternatives to having the child is where a lot of complications are involved, too.
Suppose you view contraception, morning-after pills and abortion as ways for women to prevent having a child, with condoms being the option for men, then where's the difference? Both have ways to prevent it, if you count on your partner preventing it you can't later on complain she didn't do a good job of it.
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So tough. But I think the guy needs to take responsibility for his actions.
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On December 22 2011 02:20 mucker wrote:
I don't think it is a hard question at all. When you choose to do something you must take full responsibility for the outcome whether or not everything goes the way you wanted it do. This applies to all facets of life.
Me and mucker appear to agree perfectly, even if he made a typo.
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United States5162 Posts
On December 22 2011 02:53 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 02:43 Myles wrote:On December 22 2011 02:36 Grumbels wrote:On December 22 2011 02:22 Myles wrote:
I think it's an impossible thing to get right.
It's wrong to force a guy to pay for a child based on an honest mistake. It's also wrong for a guy to go around impregnating girls without worry of the consequences. It's also wrong to let a child grow up in squalor.
All in all, people need to stop being so dumb about sex. If you're concerned about a guy having to pay for his 'honest mistake', then where's your sympathy for the girl who would have to raise a child with only herself supporting it? Or the child without a father? While I never directly said it, it's implied through the second sentence. I also think it's kind of ironic that guys seem to hold all the responsibility in the situation. The girl also decided to have sex and take on the potential consequences. The fact that there are alternatives to having the child is where a lot of complications are involved, too. Suppose you view contraception, morning-after pills and abortion as ways for women to prevent having a child, with condoms being the option for men, then where's the difference? Both have ways to prevent it, if you count on your partner preventing it you can't later on complain she didn't do a good job of it.
You're putting words in my mouth. In my initial post I specifically said an honest mistake - as in the condom broke or something similar. My very next sentence was that it's wrong for a guy to go out impregnating women without worry.
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On December 22 2011 03:03 Myles wrote:
You're putting words in my mouth. I specifically said an honest mistake - as in the condom broke or something similar. My very next sentence was that it's wrong for a guy to go out impregnating women without worry.
A good rule of thumb to follow in life is that nothing is 100% risk-free, especially contraception. It is still possible, even when taking birth control pills exactly as directed, for a woman to become pregnant while using them.
By having sex with a girl with a condom you are (even if you're not) accepting the risk of the unlikely situation where A) the condom breaks, B) the girl becomes pregnant and C) she wishes to keep the child. The risk is miniscule, but it exists and has far-reaching consequences.
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United States5162 Posts
On December 22 2011 03:08 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 03:03 Myles wrote:
You're putting words in my mouth. I specifically said an honest mistake - as in the condom broke or something similar. My very next sentence was that it's wrong for a guy to go out impregnating women without worry. A good rule of thumb to follow in life is that nothing is 100% risk-free, especially contraception. It is still possible, even when taking birth control pills exactly as directed, for a woman to become pregnant while using them. By having sex with a girl with a condom you are (even if you're not) accepting the risk of the unlikely situation where A) the condom breaks, B) the girl becomes pregnant and C) she wishes to keep the child. The risk is miniscule, but it exists and has far-reaching consequences.
Sure, I wouldn't argue that. I just think it's unfair to paint men with all the responsibility, as well the situation where a guy actively tried to avoid pregnancy, or the rare times where the man wants to keep the child but the women doesn't. It's a horrible situation all around that can't be fixed in a completely fair manner.
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If the sex was consensual both parties knew what was up. That does not only include, that the father knew that he could be a father, but also that the girl/woman knew that she could be a mother. Both parties here are EQUALLY "guilty".
If she decides to be a mother, then she has NO right to force it onto the father and vice versa. In the end it's the mother's decision to keep the baby, but if she decides to keep it it is HER decision ALONE.
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It's not just the woman's responsibility to use birth control, and if contraceptives were used but somehow failed, there's still the act that was committed in mutuality that applies responsibility to both parties. It's entirely up to the male if he wants to be a part of the child's life or not. However, the act left the woman in a different state, meaning she will go through changes that warrant medical care, increased demand for resources (more food, diapers, etc.), so the government comes in and takes the role of a mediator. Because government cannot apply moral values to an individual (in most countries we are familiar with), they cannot force the male to be an active father. Verily, an unwilling father is arguably a worse influence than an absent one. What the government can do is make the male share the financial burden due to his part in the act, and that is contingent on the female pursuing some sort of child support settlement.
That being said, guys that say "oh it ain't my fault the condom broke," and try to wash their hands of the matter are usually pussies and self-involved faggots who need to grow up. :D
User was warned for this post
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On December 22 2011 03:20 KeksX wrote:
If the sex was consensual both parties knew what was up. That does not only include, that the father knew that he could be a father, but also that the girl/woman knew that she could be a mother. Both parties here are EQUALLY "guilty".
If she decides to be a mother, then she has NO right to force it onto the father and vice versa. In the end it's the mother's decision to keep the baby, but if she decides to keep it it is HER decision ALONE.
Sorry, but that's not how sex (or the legal system) works, and you even say so. "Both parties here are EQUALLY "guilty". "
The second you have sex, it's an implicit agreement recognizing that you may get the female pregnant. If you're not ready to be a dad, don't have sex. (Or play the odds, but that's a risk you need to be willing to take.)
It doesn't matter how immature or unprepared you are for that- the sperm doesn't care about your psychological or economical situations.
Granted, the female apparently has the ultimate say in whether or not to keep the baby (and you may not like this, but that's just the way it is, genetically), but the male is also accountable if the female decides to keep the baby.
The female may have the final say, but that's only because it's her body. The male helped create the fetus, so he's bound to it if it stays alive and becomes a baby. And if he doesn't like the fact that the woman doesn't want to stay pregnant, then he should go find a woman who does want kids.
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On December 22 2011 02:43 Myles wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 22 2011 02:36 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 02:22 Myles wrote:
I think it's an impossible thing to get right.
It's wrong to force a guy to pay for a child based on an honest mistake. It's also wrong for a guy to go around impregnating girls without worry of the consequences. It's also wrong to let a child grow up in squalor.
All in all, people need to stop being so dumb about sex. If you're concerned about a guy having to pay for his 'honest mistake', then where's your sympathy for the girl who would have to raise a child with only herself supporting it? Or the child without a father? While I never directly said it, it's implied through the second sentence. I also think it's kind of ironic that guys seem to hold all the responsibility in the situation. The girl also decided to have sex and take on the potential consequences. The fact that there are alternatives to having the child is where a lot of complications are involved, too.
I don't understand...so the woman who bears the pain of birthing the child or goes through a traumatic experience of an abortion and in most cases is going to be upbringing the child with or without the father's presence, holds no responsibility?
The context of "responsibility" being laid on the male is because that a majority of the time, it is the male who does not want to face the consequences of his actions, not the woman.
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The whole point of sex in species is to make a baby, so when it happens by accident or not, you better be man enough to be there for the child. It pisses me off when people do things they know could lead to huge responsibilities in life, but then just say fuck it, do it anyway, and then complain and bitch when the worst happens.
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On December 22 2011 02:46 nttea wrote:
Sadly as much as it sucks that a man can get forced into being the father of a child he doesn't want while a woman always have the option of abortion, there really is no better alternative. You can't force an abortion upon a woman and a child always have the right to know who is father is when possible.
Yeah this sucks very much for guys.
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On December 22 2011 02:33 Terranist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 02:32 TiTanIum_ wrote:
"With great power comes great responsibilities." Batman.
If he got the girl pregnant, it is his fault. Use a better condom, learn to put it, give the girl a day after pill, teach your boys to swim backwards, I don´t care. Deal with it. did you even read the OP? you're totally off the mark.
I have just re read the OP, and I don´t think I´m "off the mark". Could you explain?
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in my opinion the big disadvantage for the males is that after having impregnated a female they have no more say about what's going to happen. If she says I'l abort, the male has to deal with it even if he might really want the baby and on the hand if she says the contrary ...... we might have our OP
But this is the nature of things and it's not really changeable in men's favor so he has to know about his advantages and disadvantages in sex 
be careful, be very careful
(and afraid) 8[
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It works both ways in my mind. I believe that if either partner decides on keeping the child, then you are morally obligated to be there for that child. When you engage in sexual acts with someone, you have to understand that birth control is not a 100% guarantee and there is still a chance for pregnancy.
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On December 22 2011 02:19 AirbladeOrange wrote:
It's not always the case a guy is "tied down for the next 18 years of his life" after he fathers a child. You don't have to marry the woman or move in with her or anything. However, if she wants you to be financially responsible you do have to pay child support, at least in the U.S.. I think if the mother chooses to keep the baby even against the father's wishes, the father should still have financial obligations because he still had a part in the matter.
How does this work? Can you be forced upon a DNA test or what?
Edit: Not sure if the same law applies to Denmark or not.
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Well if you use a condom and the girl the pill then you both don't want a child(otherwise you wouldn't use those things). So if all of sudden the girl does get pregnant and she wants to keep the baby then the guy should be free to go without any responsibilties. As you both didn't want her to get pregnant.
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Assuming it's 100% accident and there's no fault of that man, then that's totally not right that he has 0% of the power (of decision), yet 50% of the responsibility. That said, this assumption is 99,99% wrong; learn how to use condoms properly and/or don't be a cheap-ass when buying one. Normal, properly used condom breaks only in a 1-in-a-million freak accident.
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On December 22 2011 06:27 ZBiR wrote:
Assuming it's 100% accident and there's no fault of that man, then that's totally not right that he has 0% of the power (of decision), yet 50% of the responsibility. That said, this assumption is 99,99% wrong; learn how to use condoms properly and/or don't be a cheap-ass when buying one. Normal, properly used condom breaks only in a 1-in-a-million freak accident.
This shit is why sex education should go farther than it does.
Yeah, we get told about condoms and what they do, but they honestly should just show a video of putting one on properly or something. Put one on a dildo or whatever, it's not like it's hardcore porn. But no, think of the children's nonexistent innocence!
I get kind of sad every time I hear about young people having reckless sex, because I know there's a good chance of it ending up really badly for them just because they were dumb didn't think it through.
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On December 22 2011 02:51 achristes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 02:39 Kralic wrote:
What class is this for? That will sway my answer a bit. English class, about youth problems (especially in Britain).
If you don't mind me asking, what exactly does any of this have to do with English?
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On December 22 2011 08:17 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 02:51 achristes wrote:On December 22 2011 02:39 Kralic wrote:
What class is this for? That will sway my answer a bit. English class, about youth problems (especially in Britain). If you don't mind me asking, what exactly does any of this have to do with English?
We are learning about British history and culture, and youth problems Britain is struggling with. Other than that you'll have to ask my teacher.
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This is really hard.
In an ideal world, the mother and the father would consult each other's opinions in an open and respectful manner, and genuinely try to understand each other's positions on the subject. However, the idea of forcing the woman to have an abortion (or forcing her to keep the child) against her will would be considered pretty horrific by contemporary Western ideology, so the decision must ultimately be hers.
As to the question of whether the father should be obliged to pay support to the child if he was adamantly against the mother keeping it - I think if the woman knows full well that the man is opposed, she needs to make her decision based on the possibility that she will not have his financial/emotional support ... though, the idea that men could potentially go around impregnating women and then absolve themselves of the responsibiliy feels a bit prehistoric to me (like I'm subscribing to that ontology whereby females are ostensibly more choosy about their mates because they have to devote a lot of time and pain in raising a child, but males are biologically driven to mate with as many females as possibly to ensure the propagation of their genes ... which I don't necessarily agree with). Conversely, the idea that women could potentially take advantage of men by forcing them to pay support (which may or may not end up actually be used on what it's supposed to be used on, in some cases) is a bit sickening, too.
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On December 22 2011 02:32 TiTanIum_ wrote:
"With great power comes great responsibilities." Batman.
If he got the girl pregnant, it is his fault. Use a better condom, learn to put it, give the girl a day after pill, teach your boys to swim backwards, I don´t care. Deal with it.
That was Peter Parkers uncle. Get your shit together.
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EPT
