EPTA message to SotG from a BW Fan - Page 5
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Cruncharoo
United States136 Posts
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
On September 22 2011 05:37 Dfgj wrote: If I recall, a korean post made a comment that the GSL finals were of lower quality more because of the longer prep times, that resulted in fine-tuned 1-sided games when compared to events like MLG. i would like to read that post... and why would that be a reason? if one player is not able to prepare for an important game he should lose. and OSL/MSL even ahd prep time in the group stages | ||
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Sc1pio
United States823 Posts
The difference lied nearly wholly in decision making, strategical development, and game sense, which are still a huge part of SC2 in a way, though somewhat differently for each of them. Moreover, considering the large number of mistakes even the best SC2 players make in every game, and the stunning lack of mistakes a Flash makes in a more difficult game that was BW, even if he was dropped in the current scene he would be a great player. To the general point of the thread, I loved the BW discussion, especially the part about too much information given in the UI. A specific example I can think of is during the famous game on HBR between YellOw and Bisu. YellOw is doing this massive lurker/hydra drop aggression, then, after killing Bisu's main, tech switches to mutalisks. The audience has no idea this is happening and flips a shit when the mutas pop. In SC2, the audience would know 5 minutes beforehand that mutas were coming, and it would be much less of an impactful moment. Think of it like a game of soccer. Consider the first goal of this game: + Show Spoiler + Pato gets a pass and turns on the afterburners and blows past the Barcalona defense. This suddenness made this goal extremely exciting to watch, on top of the context of the match. Suspense comes from not knowing what is going to happen definitionally, and having the production tab (specifically, though the others contribute to this problem as well) takes away a lot of this. If we knew Pato was going to attempt to smoke past the Barca defense, the goal itself would have been a lot less exciting. This isn't the perfect metaphor, but I hope it at least illustrates my point. | ||
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gurrpp
United States437 Posts
On September 22 2011 02:30 MattyClutch wrote: Well that isn't something you can just make. That will take time to develop. ... what? I believe he's referencing Dustin Browder's game design history. | ||
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MattyClutch
United States711 Posts
On September 22 2011 06:02 gurrpp wrote: I believe he's referencing Dustin Browder's game design history. Ah I see. I actually didn't know Browder had worked for EA. An odd way to word that. | ||
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quirinus
Croatia2489 Posts
On September 22 2011 05:28 Zergneedsfood wrote: I have to go along with this preparation thing. You guys gotta realize how cool it was in that OSL finals. Jangbi basically SUPER meta-ed Fantasy in so many ways. The first game on Pathfinder is a GREAT example. The second game is too. + Show Spoiler + Even though Jangbi lost, it's clear that he knows that Fantasy ALWAYS gets siege first rather than mines when he 14ccs So I mean THAT kind of thing is really fun to watch and figure out. uuuuuh you kinda HAVE to get siege, and every sane person gets it, it's no secret. if you'd get mines, you'd die, since the goons that have been firing at your bunker would own you. | ||
CaucasianAsian
Korea (South)11601 Posts
On September 22 2011 06:45 MattyClutch wrote: Ah I see. I actually didn't know Browder had worked for EA. An odd way to word that. My bad, he helped work for C&C 5, not 4. My apologies to anyone who was offended I suppose. Although the similarities of units from the C&C series and Starcraft 2 is very large. Mainly the corruptor from C&C is exactly like the baneling. The Annihilator Triport from C&C is almost exactly like the colossus. Those are just off the top of my head. | ||
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Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
On September 22 2011 08:37 CaucasianAsian wrote: My bad, he helped work for C&C 5, not 4. My apologies to anyone who was offended I suppose. Although the similarities of units from the C&C series and Starcraft 2 is very large. Mainly the corruptor from C&C is exactly like the baneling. The Annihilator Triport from C&C is almost exactly like the colossus. Those are just off the top of my head. I didn't even know there was a C&C5... o.O | ||
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
On September 22 2011 05:43 Cruncharoo wrote: Thorzain vs Naniwa final in TSL3 was an unforgettable final To be blatantly honest, I forgot about it until you brought it up. :/ On September 22 2011 07:12 quirinus wrote: uuuuuh you kinda HAVE to get siege, and every sane person gets it, it's no secret. if you'd get mines, you'd die, since the goons that have been firing at your bunker would own you.  You may be right and maybe I'm just dumb, but I believe there might be a few games where that isn't the case. Just forget I said anything.  | ||
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macmann
87 Posts
I also agree with tyler that the fact casters can now know everything via unit production tab is really taking the excitement out of the game from viewing perspective. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On September 22 2011 10:40 Zergneedsfood wrote: To be blatantly honest, I forgot about it until you brought it up. :/ You may be right and maybe I'm just dumb, but I believe there might be a few games where that isn't the case. Just forget I said anything. Actually, you aren't necessarily wrong - with FD pushes, you generally almost always get mines before siege. Also, going vulture before add-on has been common recently, and that sometimes circumvents siege for earlier mines. However, the playstyle of that is completely different. But i'm getting off-topic ;] Great thread - i watched SOTG because of it and now i'm itching to get back into BW. | ||
Harem
United States11393 Posts
On September 22 2011 11:41 Comeh wrote: Actually, you aren't necessarily wrong - with FD pushes, you generally almost always get mines before siege. Also, going vulture before add-on has been common recently, and that sometimes circumvents siege for earlier mines. However, the playstyle of that is completely different. But i'm getting off-topic ;] Great thread - i watched SOTG because of it and now i'm itching to get back into BW. You missed the part where he was talking about double CC. | ||
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emveepee
4 Posts
In the STOG, they talked about GGPLAY's reverse sweep as one of the most memorable series in bw, but what made it even more emotional for me and other korean esports viewers was knowing GGPLAY as a person and the road he had walked. Let me give you a few examples. + Show Spoiler + 1. In a special interview by GGPLAY's dad on the children's day, he said that they were too poor to send ggplay to college despite him being a good student. Also, talked about how he once lost a game because he was too hungry 2. In a duel tournament game where he was losing, when a bug/glitch happened, he just accepted the loss and did not ask for a regame. 3. It is a picture of ggplay holding onto some rice cake he got to give them to his hanbit teammates. 4. A fan who came to seoul to watch ggplay play wrote on a forum saying how ggplay got him a taxi and even paid for the fare 5. ggplay's famous pose Seeing GGPLAY reverse sweep Iris and his dad running onto the stage to hug him, I felt like I was watching a documentary than a video game tournament. Right now I feel like SC2 lacks the genuineness that BW has | ||
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Sotamursu
Finland612 Posts
I don't think SC2 is boring or an easy game. Sure it might not be as hard as BW, but that doesn't make it any less of a great game. I'm sure the quality of games will rise even higher as people become even better than before. | ||
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Rococo
United States331 Posts
On September 22 2011 16:40 Sotamursu wrote: Not being a huge BW fan, since I was mostly introduced to the scene through SC2 beta, most of the comments on this thread seem biased. Of course SC2 is going to be a game with no micro/easy macro/boring to watch etc, if you've already decided that's the way it is. If you can't see the difference between microing your units in engagements and not, I don't know what game you are watching. I don't think SC2 is boring or an easy game. Sure it might not be as hard as BW, but that doesn't make it any less of a great game. I'm sure the quality of games will rise even higher as people become even better than before. Well, it's just an opinion that SC2 is boring to watch, and a fact that its macro is easier and, from the perspective of a Korean BW pro, easy in comparison. Whether its micro is significantly easier or less important is debatable. I think there's a lot of untapped potential for multi-tasking, and if anything small micro mistakes are too punishing because of how powerful AoE spells are given SC2's unit clumping, so I'll give you that one. Micro is very very important in SC2. But BW's micro is more back and forth, with each player responding to the other over long battles (Dragoons vs. Vultures with spider mines is a good example). SC2's micro tends be more along the lines of "split your Marines or lose the game" and "Feedback that Ghost before he can EMP or lose the game". I think that's what people are getting at when they complain about micro in SC2. | ||
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Jenia6109
Russian Federation1613 Posts
On September 22 2011 16:40 Sotamursu wrote: Sure it might not be as hard as BW, but that doesn't make it any less of a great game. By your logic Checkers are even to Chess even though it's much more easy On September 22 2011 16:40 Sotamursu wrote: I'm sure the quality of games will rise even higher as people become even better than before. I dont see much of quality rising with current state of the game. Again SC2 = checkers, BW = chess. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On September 22 2011 05:43 Cruncharoo wrote: Thorzain vs Naniwa final in TSL3 was an unforgettable final True, but more so because of how dramatic and close it was than because of the games. The only three things I remember from that series are the Marine-SCV rush in game 1, Thorzain's hold on Crossfire and the "Chill get out" moment in the last game. So overall... not a lot. The raw quality of gameplay just isn't there to make the games memorable. Partly because the players aren't that good yet (as Artosis pointed out), partly because the game doesn't allow for as much display of raw skill (compared to BW). | ||
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Sotamursu
Finland612 Posts
On September 22 2011 17:17 Jenia6109 wrote: By your logic Checkers are even to Chess even though it's much more easy I dont see much of quality rising with current state of the game. Again SC2 = checkers, BW = chess. No. By my logic you can't say checkers is a shitty game because chess is harder. Actually you're analogy is still bad. BW requires better mechanics. Moving wooden pieces isn't any harder no matter what you play. | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On September 22 2011 16:40 Sotamursu wrote: Not being a huge BW fan, since I was mostly introduced to the scene through SC2 beta, most of the comments on this thread seem biased. Of course SC2 is going to be a game with no micro/easy macro/boring to watch etc, if you've already decided that's the way it is. If you can't see the difference between microing your units in engagements and not, I don't know what game you are watching. I don't think SC2 is boring or an easy game. Sure it might not be as hard as BW, but that doesn't make it any less of a great game. I'm sure the quality of games will rise even higher as people become even better than before. Blizzard disagrees with you lol... There was a very clear goal and mind set with the changes SC2 recieved compared to BW. A watering down. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4189 Posts
On September 22 2011 16:40 Sotamursu wrote: Not being a huge BW fan, since I was mostly introduced to the scene through SC2 beta, most of the comments on this thread seem biased. Of course SC2 is going to be a game with no micro/easy macro/boring to watch etc, if you've already decided that's the way it is. If you can't see the difference between microing your units in engagements and not, I don't know what game you are watching. I don't think SC2 is boring or an easy game. Sure it might not be as hard as BW, but that doesn't make it any less of a great game. I'm sure the quality of games will rise even higher as people become even better than before. Thats cause you haven watched or played BW. | ||
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