Thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for explaining the ways in which Sc2 currently lacks the magic that made BW so special.
I watch SotG because it is one of the only programs that makes Sc2 interesting to me. I've only been watching BW for about 2 years, but I've had so many powerful experiences in that time that have had no parallels in my Sc2 viewing. Flash's run through the finals in 2010, KT's back to back proleague finals wins, Jangbi's win just this week, and too many epic proleague games to count. In comparison, Sc2 just seems bland and uninteresting, with the best games I've ever seen being comparable to average BW ones. I see the potential in Sc2 for greatness, and I really want it to succeed, but I can't for the life of me stand to watch it with any frequency when the entire time I'm wishing I was watching BW instead.
The hosts tonight hit just about every nail on the head as to why this is. Tournament structure, story lines, awesome micro opportunities, crazy units like Vultures, Reavers, and Lurkers, the list goes on and on. I'm so happy that four people who are so incredibly important and influential in the Sc2 community were willing to do this, and that even JP was willing to admit he'd never been as emotionally invested in a final as he was in Fantast v Jangbi.
To any Sc2 fans out there who are intrigued about BW from that cast, just know that you have a great resource here. The BW community on TL is far smaller than the Sc2 one, and in my experience much friendlier. If you have any questions about BW, from other random recommended games to how to go about following the current scene, just ask here or somewhere else and you will find help.
Sorry for being all emotional and shit, but seriously you guys are awesome. Keep trying to make Sc2 the best esport it can be, and keep repping your roots.
God damn it, I can't agree more. I love Brood War. SC2 can never replace it. It sucks that we have Concussive Shells, Fungals, and Force Fields instead of the "clutchness" that is Reavers, Scourge chases, and Dark Swarm.
On September 21 2011 15:15 HuKPOWA wrote: Wish i could rate this higher than 5 stars :D <3 <3 <3 miss competitive BW!!!!!!!!!
There's nothing to miss, BW is still going on right now (well, not NOW now, with it being the off season and all, but still). Once PL starts up again, tune in and enjoy.
BW seemed all about micro and unit positioning of your entire army. SC2 to me, feels almost like a complete 180.
concussive shells: lol u wanted to micro against a terran? colossus: rofl sup hydra i dont need micro. or a good storm. sentrys: rofl sup force fields mean i can control the terrain. you shall not pass! infestor: rofl u thought plague sucked? try maelstrom + plague. oh it's also mad cheap and you don't need to research it! broodlord: rofl u thought guardians were bad? how about tiny zerglings being shot from one. rofl sup.
sigh..... that's what we get from the company that created command and conquer 4.
I'm so glad they touched up on how little spectator information there was in bw and how it only made it more suspenseful. I feel the EXACT same way. When watching sc2 you see literally everything and its so easy to know whats going to happen and it makes it to where the game may be exciting for a little bit but then the rest of the game you are just waiting for it to end and the next one to start. But in bw you were on the edge of your seat the entire freakin time. You couldn't see what units the players were making or the upgrades researching. A Terran would be death pushing a Zerg and there would be no more hope and then BAM a dozen ultras and a couple defilers pop out of nowhere and the whole thing turns around instantly. It was so much more exciting.
On September 21 2011 15:26 CaucasianAsian wrote: BW seemed all about micro and unit positioning of your entire army. SC2 to me, feels almost like a complete 180.
concussive shells: lol u wanted to micro against a terran? colossus: rofl sup hydra i dont need micro. or a good storm. sentrys: rofl sup force fields mean i can control the terrain. you shall not pass! infestor: rofl u thought plague sucked? try maelstrom + plague. oh it's also mad cheap and you don't need to research it! broodlord: rofl u thought guardians were bad? how about tiny zerglings being shot from one. rofl sup.
sigh..... that's what we get from the company that created command and conquer 4.
Yeah for sure, there are so many anti-micro abilities in sc2 which is literally the worst possible thing for an esport. Also macro is 10,000x easier which makes it much less impressive when someone is macroing well. In bw if you were good at macro it was this crazy feat that you looked at and said HOW...WHAT...Thats not human! It made you respect the players so much more.
Yeah, I think I've watched more BW this month (caught up MSL VODs and obviously OSL) then I have SC2 which is a first for me since SC2 beta started. I really do miss it and I don't think SC2 will ever quite capture the same magic. Here's to hoping though.
EDIT: Also, thanks for mentioning this. I'll probably D/L the audio for the podcast since I missed it again.
Sadly I was sick and exhausted for the finals of OSL, but the games I watched were pretty damn exciting. I think both games are good, but I do wish that SC2 only had less dramatic slow spells instead of fungal to stop units and concussive shell which seems to snowball a bit too quickly. While saying this, I also have to say that SCII is a young game and I hope the expansions bring back that magic that BW has.
On September 21 2011 15:33 Mazer wrote: Yeah, I think I've watched more BW this month (caught up MSL VODs and obviously OSL) then I have SC2 which is a first for me since SC2 beta started. I really do miss it and I don't think SC2 will ever quite capture the same magic. Here's to hoping though.
EDIT: Also, thanks for mentioning this. I'll probably D/L the audio for the podcast since I missed it again.
It's the last portion of it, if you're not as interested in the rest.
As a pretty new BW watcher..I agreed completely with whatthey said. Production value...rarity of the tournaments etc etc.
I think the problem lies not with the game as such (though it has glaringly obvious problems, like vanilla bw did) but the way its run. Gom has a monopoly overpro SC2 in korea which is bad. They should allow other companies to run tournaments.
Would love to see the BW tournament style introduced to korean SC2....
I've played literally thousands of iccup games over the span of two years and loved every minute of it. I was here just long enough before sc2 beta to experience the full BW experience. BW teaches you very quickly that discipline is what wins games. This is obviously the case in sc2 as well but it was just so much more prominent in BW that the damn workers wouldn't mine if you didn't tell them to! Something so simple makes it so raw, like a lifeless machine that you have to put life to and defeat your enemy with 'your bare hands'. Amazing. I'm glad it's continuing to get a share of the spotlight!
I only heard a few times the name SotG before, I didn't even know it was made by Day[9], Artosis, Nony and another guy I don't know. Downloading. Must be a decent show with such big names. Thanks a lot.
Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
On September 21 2011 15:38 alexpnd wrote: I've played literally thousands of iccup games over the span of two years and loved every minute of it. I was here just long enough before sc2 beta to experience the full BW experience. BW teaches you very quickly that discipline is what wins games. This is obviously the case in sc2 as well but it was just so much more prominent in BW that the damn workers wouldn't mine if you didn't tell them to! Something so simple makes it so raw, like a lifeless machine that you have to put life to and defeat your enemy with 'your bare hands'. Amazing. I'm glad it's continuing to get a share of the spotlight!
Completely agree with this. My couple of years with bw was an amazing time.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
Lots of interesting SC2 finals: DIMAGA vs Mana, Naama vs Mana, DRG vs Thorzain, DRG vs sC, and that's only from the first year, there will be plenty more.
Meanwhile BW had tons of bad finals. Jaedong vs Yarnc, Calm vs Kwanro, Flash vs Movie, Flash vs Effort, some of the Flash vs Jaedong ones, Luxury vs Jangbi, and that's just in the few years I was paying attention.
And of course Flash vs Iris, which, apart from an interesting game 1, was much more boring and drawn out than any GOMTV SC2 TvT finals.
I didn't watch the SotG, I don't play sc2 and almost never watch it.
But I think one of the most important thing that separates BW from sc2 is the maturity of the scene.
In bw you have the OSL and the MSL, which are THE tournaments to win. They have long and pre-eliminaries, group stages and then the BoX quarters, semis and finals. If you win you are on top of the world. The tourneys are quite long and winning one leaves a mark in esports history.
For sc2, there's the GSL, MLG, DH... I don't know... MLG and DH are tournaments that span over a couple days- no real anticipation. No story development, no in-depth interviews, no hype before matches... As spectacular those events might be they lack some sort of solid core for the idea of the tournament to grow upon.
I guess the GSL is somewhat more like OSL/MSL, but after each finals. There's a one second pause and 'gg go re yo!'. The players of course need games to stay competitive. I am not aware how the Gom team league is working now but if I remember correctly it was also some sort of elimination type of tourney just for teams.
So the GSL's are needed to create the amount of the games to satisfy the players fans. (This is conditional if the bit on the team league is true, which I haven't checked up. ) So the GSL finals are not such a special event as OSL/MSL finals.
And then there's Proleague, which I think is every BW fans favorite. The drama, rivalries, ceremonies, tears, hope for your player doing better the next game in two days! You see that youngster B-teamer actually beginning to win legitimate games against A and S class pros and next thing you know you have his wallpaper
This goes on and on and one would think it could go like that forever, but some teams crystallize on top of the batch and some sublime at the very bottom. And it eventually climaxes and clashes in huge spectacular team finals.
There are probably in-game issues that separate the two games and others would be much more competent of talking about those.
I hope SC2 someday grows to something similar as SC:BW is now (used to be 2 years ago T__T )
... and at the same time I hope so much more that BW will never fade away!
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
Lots of interesting SC2 finals: DIMAGA vs Mana, Naama vs Mana, DRG vs Thorzain, DRG vs sC, and that's only from the first year, there will be plenty more.
Meanwhile BW had tons of bad finals. Jaedong vs Yarnc, Calm vs Kwanro, Flash vs Movie, Flash vs Effort, some of the Flash vs Jaedong ones, Luxury vs Jangbi, and that's just in the few years I was paying attention.
You best be joking! 'TONS'? 'BAD'!? How dare you put Flash, Jaesong, Kwanro, Effort and the rest in one sentence with 'bad'
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
Lots of interesting SC2 finals: DIMAGA vs Mana, Naama vs Mana, DRG vs Thorzain, DRG vs sC, and that's only from the first year, there will be plenty more.
Meanwhile BW had tons of bad finals. Jaedong vs Yarnc, Calm vs Kwanro, Flash vs Movie, Flash vs Effort, some of the Flash vs Jaedong ones, Luxury vs Jangbi, and that's just in the few years I was paying attention.
And of course Flash vs Iris, which, apart from an interesting game 1, was much more boring and drawn out than any GOMTV SC2 TvT finals.
If you think Flash vs Effort was a bad final, then I really don't want to follow your SC2 recommendations.
On September 21 2011 15:07 deafhobbit wrote: The BW community on TL is far smaller than the Sc2 one, and in my experience much friendlier.
Never thought of it. One year ago, before SC2 launch, TL was 100% BW community...
On September 21 2011 15:17 Flowjo wrote: I would love to play bw execpt I'd be terrible at it -_-
Ye, that's the main reason for most of us. SC2 is much more easy to play, it has new graphics, it has achievements after all that force you to play it infinitely. I played BW for about 7 years before SC2 release but after it i played maybe 5 games at most.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
Me too. I can list about 30 Bo5 and Bo3 BW series that were amazingly epic and went through my head. But in SC2 there is nothing to remember...
On September 21 2011 15:26 CaucasianAsian wrote: BW seemed all about micro and unit positioning of your entire army. SC2 to me, feels almost like a complete 180.
BW is about micro/macro/positioning/strategy choices. In SC2 there is no differentiation in macro, there is too little micro and positioning. SC2 is all about unit choices but after a year all builds were refined and now there are so few unit choices. So it's about... it's like BW ZvZ which is boring and everybody agree with that. And ye, SC2 is largely about "WOW-factor". Wow, there is new graphics! Wow, there are cool units and abilities! Wow, this game is new and everybody must play it!
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
Lots of interesting SC2 finals: DIMAGA vs Mana, Naama vs Mana, DRG vs Thorzain, DRG vs sC, and that's only from the first year, there will be plenty more.
Meanwhile BW had tons of bad finals. Jaedong vs Yarnc, Calm vs Kwanro, Flash vs Movie, Flash vs Effort, some of the Flash vs Jaedong ones, Luxury vs Jangbi, and that's just in the few years I was paying attention.
And of course Flash vs Iris, which, apart from an interesting game 1, was much more boring and drawn out than any GOMTV SC2 TvT finals.
But that isn't what I meant. Sure I've enjoyed plenty of Sc2 finals. But I've never really been invested in them or won over by them in the way that I was by a bunch of BW series. I mean, I think EffOrt beating Flash was one of the greatest sport watching experiences of my life, it's up there with David Tyree's catch in the super bowl, Landon Donavon's goal against Algeria, Luis Gonzalez's bloop single over Derek Jeter in the 2001 World Series. Can't say that about anything in Sc2 yet.
On September 21 2011 15:26 CaucasianAsian wrote: BW seemed all about micro and unit positioning of your entire army. SC2 to me, feels almost like a complete 180.
BW is about micro/macro/positioning/strategy choices. In SC2 there is no differentiation in macro, there is too little micro and positioning. SC2 is all about unit choices but after a year all builds were refined and now there are so few unit choices. So it's about... it's like BW ZvZ which is boring and everybody agree with that. And ye, SC2 is largely about "WOW-factor". Wow, there is new graphics! Wow, there are cool units and abilities! Wow, this game is new and everybody must play it!
I don't think that's 100% the case, if you watch PvZ, it's 100% determined by how the two armies engage. There was one MC vs IdrA game where IdrA was way ahead but lost, and all of the IdrA fans blew up crying imbalance, but the truth was that MC just engaged with so much better positioning than IdrA did. The general point is ok though.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
Lots of interesting SC2 finals: DIMAGA vs Mana, Naama vs Mana, DRG vs Thorzain, DRG vs sC, and that's only from the first year, there will be plenty more.
Meanwhile BW had tons of bad finals. Jaedong vs Yarnc, Calm vs Kwanro, Flash vs Movie, Flash vs Effort, some of the Flash vs Jaedong ones, Luxury vs Jangbi, and that's just in the few years I was paying attention.
And of course Flash vs Iris, which, apart from an interesting game 1, was much more boring and drawn out than any GOMTV SC2 TvT finals.
But that isn't what I meant. Sure I've enjoyed plenty of Sc2 finals. But I've never really been invested in them or won over by them in the way that I was by a bunch of BW series. I mean, I think EffOrt beating Flash was one of the greatest sport watching experiences of my life, it's up there with David Tyree's catch in the super bowl, Landon Donavon's goal against Algeria, Luis Gonzalez's bloop single over Derek Jeter in the 2001 World Series. Can't say that about anything in Sc2 yet.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
Lots of interesting SC2 finals: DIMAGA vs Mana, Naama vs Mana, DRG vs Thorzain, DRG vs sC, and that's only from the first year, there will be plenty more.
Interesting... maybe but there is no history behind them. There is no tragedy and no emotions. Just tournamets played for few days.
On September 21 2011 17:15 Cassel_Castle wrote: Meanwhile BW had tons of bad finals. Jaedong vs Yarnc, Calm vs Kwanro, Flash vs Movie, Flash vs Effort, some of the Flash vs Jaedong ones, Luxury vs Jangbi, and that's just in the few years I was paying attention.
And of course Flash vs Iris, which, apart from an interesting game 1, was much more boring and drawn out than any GOMTV SC2 TvT finals.
ZvZ is definitely not the best side of BW. Many people agree that Jaedong vs Yarnc and Calm vs Kwanro were the worst finals ever. But there are not only finals in tournament. There are epic semi-finals, quoter-finals, Ro16, group-stages, preliminaries, offline-preliminaries... Finals are just the one day of three months that tournament longs. And of course Flash vs Movie, Flash vs Effort, "some of the Flash vs Jaedong ones", Luxury vs Jangbi finals were all epic (even though no protoss won :D).
Yeah, despite being a huge SC2 fan I just have to agree that it's kind of... boring, in that there's so much anti-micro 1A stuff, having not played BW for a long time before starting SC2 I feel like I missed out a lot. I mean, the colossus is in no way an adequate replacement for the reaver imo, it's a complete 1a unit.
Whenever you see a reaver dropped (protoss dropping units, that's another thing) into a relatively undefended base, it's exciting, it's thrilling. I can't remember which game, but I remember a moment where some pro terran pulled all his SCV's to surround the reaver that was in his mineral line, and then they all fucking EXPLODED. Gave me a heart attack.
If you make a mistake like that, forget about lurkers, try to pull a clutch surround on a reaver and fail, that can be game.
First of all, that kind of stuff doesn't ever really happen in SC2. The closest would be baneling mines, and yes, they really are exciting to watch, but the baneling in in of itself is still a 1A type unit. There's just kind of a difference between the terran getting completely caught off guard and losing his army because he forgot to scan (yes yes, hold position lurkers I know) and using your lings to eat damage while pushing lurkers forward.
Infestors do exactly what conc shells and force fields do, they prevent micro and that makes it kind of boring. Also as I kind of said before, I'd much rather see someone pull off amazing storms (which is also, of course, infinitely harder in BW) and kill off the hydras than have them just kind of... die to the colossus outright.
I guess I could use some smileys to portray the excitement of caster units and other types of engagements in the two games.
<--- Reaver shot incoming on mineral line (REBOREBOREBOREBOREBOREBOREBO)
<--- Fungal decimates huge clump of marines
<--- JangBi pulls off some sick storms
<--- HuK pulls off some "sick" storms (rarely happens with how easy it is to control large clumps of units, in addition to smart casting, it's not as impressive)
I guess I'm exaggerating a lot, but I got my point across.
Just dropping by to say the overall player levels in SC2 are arguably far lower than BW at the moment.
There's been no S-class players transferred over from BW to SC2. Or even A-class. The best player to transfer over (as in, how good he was when he transferred) was MVP, right? I could be wrong on this, I'm not sure how god IrOn was, or Nada was at the time of their transfers. But they weren't S or A-class players.
I'm not sure if that would make the difference we're looking for, but I'm pretty sure Flash playing Terran in SC2 would be on top in a matter of months, if not weeks. Whether or not that'd make the games more interesting... Maybe.
On September 21 2011 17:50 DeckOneBell wrote: There's been no S-class players transferred over from BW to SC2. Or even A-class. The best player to transfer over (as in, how good he was when he transferred) was MVP, right? I could be wrong on this, I'm not sure how god IrOn was, or Nada was at the time of their transfers. But they weren't S or A-class players.
MVP was kinda A-class i think and he actually won at least one game vs Flash (in MSL)
On September 21 2011 17:50 DeckOneBell wrote: Just dropping by to say the overall player levels in SC2 are arguably far lower than BW at the moment.
I'm not sure if that would make the difference we're looking for, but I'm pretty sure Flash playing Terran in SC2 would be on top in a matter of months, if not weeks. Whether or not that'd make the games more interesting... Maybe.
At this moment i really dont think so. Overall yes but top level players are kinda the same. I mean of course Flash > MVP and Jaedong >>> NesTea but SC2 doesnt offer too much for player to show. I think if Flash and Jaedong would switch to SC2 they will be kinda similar to MVP and Nestea in this game.
On September 21 2011 15:26 CaucasianAsian wrote: BW seemed all about micro and unit positioning of your entire army. SC2 to me, feels almost like a complete 180.
concussive shells: lol u wanted to micro against a terran? colossus: rofl sup hydra i dont need micro. or a good storm. sentrys: rofl sup force fields mean i can control the terrain. you shall not pass! infestor: rofl u thought plague sucked? try maelstrom + plague. oh it's also mad cheap and you don't need to research it! broodlord: rofl u thought guardians were bad? how about tiny zerglings being shot from one. rofl sup.
sigh..... that's what we get from the company that created command and conquer 4.
I was with you until the last sentence... It doesn't really make sense!
Firstly, the C&C4 to SC2 comparison is way out of proportion.... SC2 sure isn't BW.. But it's not complete fucking garbage...
And secondly.. Blizz obviously didnt make C&C4.. And I'm pretty sure Browder was gone from C&C development before they started C&C4??
On September 21 2011 18:20 Brett wrote: And secondly.. Blizz obviously didnt make C&C4.. And I'm pretty sure Browder was gone from C&C development before they started C&C4??
Browder worked on RedAlert 2 and C&C:Generals which were quite successful
On September 21 2011 18:20 Brett wrote: And secondly.. Blizz obviously didnt make C&C4.. And I'm pretty sure Browder was gone from C&C development before they started C&C4??
Browder worked on RedAlert 2 and C&C:Generals which were quite successful
On September 21 2011 17:50 DeckOneBell wrote: Just dropping by to say the overall player levels in SC2 are arguably far lower than BW at the moment.
There's been no S-class players transferred over from BW to SC2. Or even A-class. The best player to transfer over (as in, how good he was when he transferred) was MVP, right? I could be wrong on this, I'm not sure how god IrOn was, or Nada was at the time of their transfers. But they weren't S or A-class players.
I'm not sure if that would make the difference we're looking for, but I'm pretty sure Flash playing Terran in SC2 would be on top in a matter of months, if not weeks. Whether or not that'd make the games more interesting... Maybe.
Yeah, this was discussed a lot in the Elephant in the Room article from Intrigue a while ago. It's very true, obviously if the worlds best RTS players switched to another RTS the general level of competition in that other RTS would be highly increased.
A lot of SC2 newbies (not to make generalizations or be offensive, trust me, i'm one of them) will be very quick to say "but boxer was a banjowa!!!" when, as Intrigue also pointed out, both july nada and boxer were faar past their prime when they switched.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
Lots of interesting SC2 finals: DIMAGA vs Mana, Naama vs Mana, DRG vs Thorzain, DRG vs sC, and that's only from the first year, there will be plenty more.
Meanwhile BW had tons of bad finals. Jaedong vs Yarnc, Calm vs Kwanro, Flash vs Movie, Flash vs Effort, some of the Flash vs Jaedong ones, Luxury vs Jangbi, and that's just in the few years I was paying attention.
And of course Flash vs Iris, which, apart from an interesting game 1, was much more boring and drawn out than any GOMTV SC2 TvT finals.
Flash vs Effort was awesome. I don't know what you're talking about with that one.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
I also see it kind of like the current state of the music industry. There's just so much music nowadays, so many genres and subgenres, so much raw output of new music that it's much harder to appreciate and Savior music in general. In the past you had one hard plastic copy of music in the form of CDs. There was that special moment of unwrapping a fresh cd, even the tactile part of ripping it off felt great. You'd listen to all the songs even if you really just wanted one of the tracks.
But nowadays you go to hypemachine or .fm or something and have a constant stream of new music every single day. Everything is digital, so much easier to obtain and to skim through. BW had the osl and msl and proleague. Games were a lot less frequent. Now we have GSL, GSTL, GSL spinoffs like specialty or super tournaments, MLG monthly, dreamhack, NASL, IPL etc. And we even get the privelage now to watch from a first person perspective some of the best players in the world play, through their streams. And of course there are dozens and dozens of pro streamers. To put this into perspective, in BW, a third party program had to be programmed in order to imperfectly track the first person view of pro replays. And not many of those types of replays were even made widely available.
i also rated with 5 stars!!! great blogentry i really enjoy sotg to begin with but i think its great that jp even admits that the osl finals is worth talking about. i dont think we have to start a discussion now about the two games lets just say that the GSL could learn things from bw tournaments/starleagues to make it much much more interesting to watch!
I've seen most of the GSL finals and the only one that stands out in my memory was Fruitdealer winning...and he may as well be completely gone from the scene now.
I've also seen most of the OSL and MSL finals, and I could probably tell you both players in either finals from any year because they ALL stand out in my memory. Even the ZvZ finals from the Avalon MSL in 2009.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
I also see it kind of like the current state of the music industry. There's just so much music nowadays, so many genres and subgenres, so much raw output of new music that it's much harder to appreciate and Savior music in general. In the past you had one hard plastic copy of music in the form of CDs. There was that special moment of unwrapping a fresh cd, even the tactile part of ripping it off felt great. You'd listen to all the songs even if you really just wanted one of the tracks.
But nowadays you go to hypemachine or .fm or something and have a constant stream of new music every single day. Everything is digital, so much easier to obtain and to skim through. BW had the osl and msl and proleague. Games were a lot less frequent. Now we have GSL, GSTL, GSL spinoffs like specialty or super tournaments, MLG monthly, dreamhack, NASL, IPL etc. And we even get the privelage now to watch from a first person perspective some of the best players in the world play, through their streams. And of course there are dozens and dozens of pro streamers. To put this into perspective, in BW, a third party program had to be programmed in order to imperfectly track the first person view of pro replays. And not many of those types of replays were even made widely available.
Maybe good comparison but Proleague spams about 8 BW games a day
I just love watching BW games because there's a kind of awe I feel watching players like Flash and Jaedong play - I played terran up to a C in iccup a couple years back now and holy hell did I have to work to get there, and there were still so many glaring holes in my play. Watching the best BW players in the world go at it is like watching a masterpiece unfold; I know there's no way I could ever even approach their skill level no matter how much I worked at it. And, even at the pro level, there's huge differences between the best, the good, the decent, and the "scrubs." It makes upsets more enjoyable to me just because I know how damn hard it is to beat someone that's only moderately better than you.
In contrast, SC2 games, even at the GSL level, are often full of mistakes and awful unit control even with vastly reduced mechanical requirements. Many abilities are designed to simply remove micro from the game for both players (FF, fungal, conc shell) instead of add micro (reaver drops, lurkers vs marines, vulture mines). Battles totalling 200+ supply are over in mere seconds because everything dies so damn fast with clumped units and mindless aoe like colossi, hellions, non-overkilling tanks, and even a lucky baneling or two. I just don't get the same tug-of-war feel in the vast majority of SC2 games. Finally, most of the time pro games just don't really look that impressive. As a high master's player who has rarely played since season 1 ended, I watch pro games and, generally, can do the same things that they do. Marine splitting, stim kiting, dropping 3 places at once, whatever. Sure, I don't do it as well and I sure as hell don't know the timings for hardly anything, but it seems like my play and the pros play isn't too different - there just isn't that feeling of "holy shit this guy is amazing, how the hell does he do all that?"
I feel as we are at a turning point in the history of SC2. The sharade is coming down and more and more people are starting to realise that this game is kind of incomplete (although it is still young, I think it lacks some aspects that are needed to evolve.). I'm sure I'm not the only one who always thought the game kind of felt unfinished, especially zerg.A lot units are boring and bland. I mean collossus for example is just zo mindnumbingly boring and retarded, same as mass roaches, mass marines, mass voids whatever. Hydras suck, the unit sounds suck, Bnet SUCKS bigtime (although the ladder system is probably something that is good about Bnet, but the custom games... Don't get me started on custom games...), I could go on and on...
You can accredit this to the fact the game is still young but like I said before, I think this is going to be the best we can expect from the game. Besides better mechanics from the players, the game just lacks depth honestly.
Unless, two more expansions make up for all of the flaws and introduce some interesting units/abilities.
It's down to many elements but SC2 progames simply are not impressive... like i can't tell the difference between supposedly the very best of the best and say, high ladder players. Well i can tell the difference but the fundamentals are so similar. Compare this to the giant leaps of skill from S class downwards. Plus players very often have their own style you can recognize, which is very much watered down in SC2. All of it together makes for tons and tons of bland games where someone goes for a unit composition and wins or loses. It's telling when you ask SC2 fans what some very good games are they very often just say 'gimmick' games where there was lots of nukes or stuff like that. This despite there being shitloads of tournaments constantly, hundreds of high level games played every game even.
Also why do people think that somehow if Flash or whoever switched they could reach some new found level of skill? You can't get blood from a stone and you can't get micro out of horrible units like the Colossus either. If SC2 stopped being patched at 1.4, just for the sake of argument.. would anyone expect it honestly to 'evolve' any significant amount? A year from now you'd end up with just refined versions of the same shit that people are already doing. The metagame that people keep going on about is being pushed heavily by patches not real evolution in gameplay. The game is simply limited in it's current form.
i think the point that resonated the most with me, and the point that i've made since sc2 first appeared on the scene, is that there is no suspence due to the UI. and that suspense of not knowing who has more supply, what the player is producing and so on is an integral part of the viewing experiece and i just feel that is taken away.
as incontrol said, there are simply too many tournaments, i understand they are needed to support the scene, but it also removes that emotional attachment to a player. he just won! but who cares, there's another large tournament tomorrow or next week or next MONTH AT MAX. the only player i follow religiously is Sen and apart from him i couldn't care less about anyone else and i just find it diffcult to barrack for another player.
^refering to what Thermia posted above me, i think he makes a good point in that having more AoE units in sc2 reduces the major battle lengths, you don't get see those epic manlot trains rallied to tanks, those beautiful swarm setups. ><
On September 21 2011 20:29 Doraemon wrote: i think the point that resonated the most with me, and the point that i've made since sc2 first appeared on the scene, is that there is no suspence due to the UI. and that suspense of not knowing who has more supply, what the player is producing and so on is an integral part of the viewing experiece and i just feel that is taken away.
I definitely agree with this. However, it's kind of problematic because... What do we do? Make the UI intentionally bad despite the fact that we CAN have it be much better? Not really, that won't slide with the majority of SC2 fans and it'll seem a bit fake/contrived. I suppose it's kind of how people who grew up in the 80's love the bad quality of old music videos, or the glitchy sounds of LP records.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
I stayed up for so many sc2 finals, hoping it would entice me into playing sc2. I regret staying up for every one of them. MC/Rain, MKP/MVP, MC/July, Nestea/Inca, MMA/Polt, etc. Probably like the worst RTS matches I've seen. It was literally like watching B-teamers suddenly playing televised games, getting nervous, and failing all over the place.
Edit: What he ^^ said, but.....it's not a problem with SC2, it's a problem with the players not being good enough yet.
As someone who played SC2 for a year before deciding to try and like BW after continually seeing people say it is far superior...I don't get it.
What I see in SC2 is not a lack of micro-intensive units, but merely the current inability of even the best players to micro well enough without sacrificing macro yet. I see BW players controlling units far better than their SC2 counterparts. I see people botching simple FF and mis-storming at the highest level of SC2 STILL. In a MLG final, a player still had 2 factorys mis-rallied and lost two freaking thors for nothing. SC2 players just aren't good enough for high drama games yet, plus i don't feel the game is balanced well enough yet. T has such massive micro potential, while Z and P have much less, even though they aren't even using all the resources available to them STILL.
I don't know why but every time I watch broodwar play I always cheer for the players to do something good and every time I watch SC2 play I keep thinking I hope he doesn't fuck up. For example when Jangbi got that shuttle and I saw Fantasy had no turrets I was cheering for Jangbi to kill everything with this reaver and when he got that second shuttle I wanted to see amazing micro. In SC2 if I'm watching a korean TvZ I'm not cheering for the T to marine split really really well, I'm just thinking to myself "well hope he doesn't fuck up the marine split". Same with PvT, I just keep thinking hope he doesn't ff his own zealots out instead of cheering for amazing force-fields. If toss has storm in bw I want to see everything die and get excited every time a high templar is getting close to the armies but in SC2 I just think to myself, hope he doesn't storm himself. It's like I expect SC2 players to make more mistakes than good plays or something.
Oh, and agree with anti-micro comments that's already been said. Anti-micro is just not exciting, fungal brings no hype at all, especially on drops (yeah it's been said a million times, it's no scourge). Yeah, it forces good unit positioning and not clumping, but so did darkswarm and that didn't have to freeze everything. And it's not freeze everything for a long time, it's freeze everything for a short time so the other player has to spam click and hope the other guy fucks up. That's not micro.
I personally hate BW vs SC2 comparisons as it is almost impossible for anyone to say anything without being emotional and being negative about one or the other. I for one would really like it if people viewed the Starcraft franchise as one whole thing, and we could all get togther and just be enthusiasts.
Good blog post, thanks for your honest opinions =)
I too think that SC2 has something to prove at this point. I know that the game is still two expansions short of complete, but I can't see the fundamentals of the game changing too drastically to "make up for the shortcomings," so to say. Many points have been brought up in this thread and in multiple threads and discussions in the past as well: the "1a" micro, lower skill cap, smart casting, TMI for spectator, etc. I don't see any of these being patched out/modified in the future. There isn't probably one "fix" that someone can pinpoint and address (if there was, it'd have been done already), but something has to be done before/with the release of HotS.
SCBW is just fantastic. I'm not saying it's perfect, but there is so much excitement as a spectator sport (e-sport, fine). The recent finals between JangBi and Fantasy was one of the best Bo5 ever played, with a fairytale storyline, and really a down-to-the-wire finish.
With a billion SC2 streams being available versus the one-or-two BW streams, I watch BW streams anyway. GSL (finals, even) versus SPL (regular season game)? I'd watch SPL even if it was some crappy ZvZ between two failure Zergs. Sure I'd tune into SC2 if there was nothing else to watch, but my preference would be like BW (casted) > SC2 (casted) > BW (user stream) > SC2 (user stream). Well, depends on which caster, but I would put BW user stream ahead of casted SC2 if [some castors that I won't name] are casting... simply boring and detrimental.
I hope for the best for future of e-sports in general. No matter what people say, I still see BW as the stronghold of e-sports and SC2 isn't quite pulling its weight yet (and will it ever?).
On September 21 2011 20:29 Doraemon wrote: i think the point that resonated the most with me, and the point that i've made since sc2 first appeared on the scene, is that there is no suspence due to the UI. and that suspense of not knowing who has more supply, what the player is producing and so on is an integral part of the viewing experiece and i just feel that is taken away.
I definitely agree with this. However, it's kind of problematic because... What do we do? Make the UI intentionally bad despite the fact that we CAN have it be much better? Not really, that won't slide with the majority of SC2 fans and it'll seem a bit fake/contrived. I suppose it's kind of how people who grew up in the 80's love the bad quality of old music videos, or the glitchy sounds of LP records.
There ain't much to do other than play BW and hope blizzard gets it right in the next two expansions. I highly doubt that anything will change because the reason BW was so successful was because of its UI and unit AI, which forced you to take an active part in everything, from ordering workers to mine, to microing lings in order to surround a group of units or else they would just attack in line and not do anything. IMO these "limitations" created a lot of levels of competition.
If everyone could dribble like Messi and make perfect passes, football would definitely be dull to watch. But since that is not the case, we can sit in front of tv sets and marvel at the shit Ronaldo does and at the speed he does it, and go WOW what did I just see.
There are two major things that makes SC2 at the top level not as good as top level BW: one that's been said and one that hasn't.
First is that the players aren't anywhere near as good. When someone like HongUn ( no offense to him ) and people like him are Code S and Code A players then that's just a statement about the other people playing with them. There's no real people who just are so good at the "imbalance" doesn't matter that much. MVP and NesTea are probably the two most solid players in SC2 and both of them have massive, glaring holes in their play that a top tier BW would exploit and decimate. I don't think this cheapens SC2 at all ( thus I disagree with the premise from the "Elephant in the room" article ), but I do think we have to objectively say that it's like watching top level college football. Yeah, it's good, it can be a lot of fun, but you simply aren't seeing the best of the best of the best play. In this situation, crappy finals are very easy to run in to since there's more than a decent chance that it's Really Good player vs. Mediocre Player instead of Great Player vs. Amazing Player.
The other problem, in my opinion, isn't that there are too many tournaments. ( I haven't heard the incontrol comment so it's 100% possible I'm restating his opinion in different words ) The problem is that it's hard to build prestige in a tournament. It's not entirely the fault of constant 4-0s in the GSL, but it's one of those things where the tournament doesn't become exciting for viewers because the tournament says so. Tournaments like OSL and MSL have years of prestige built up in addition to a format designed to be that way. GSL is designed more like a "regular season" tournament, but doesn't have something that feels like an MSL or OSL tournament because doing so would take way too long. Part of that is also that there's no competition between formats or a cycle of different formats. It's all GSL all the time or the weekend tournaments in the style of MLG or Dreamhack ( which are *really* cool and a lot of fun, but those don't make a scene in my opinion ).
Were I to make an analogy, I think we're at a point where we have college football players playing a college football regular season capped with a "cotton bowl"-esque finals.
On September 21 2011 19:26 Thermia wrote: In contrast, SC2 games, even at the GSL level, are often full of mistakes and awful unit control even with vastly reduced mechanical requirements. Many abilities are designed to simply remove micro from the game for both players (FF, fungal, conc shell) instead of add micro (reaver drops, lurkers vs marines, vulture mines). Battles totalling 200+ supply are over in mere seconds because everything dies so damn fast with clumped units and mindless aoe like colossi, hellions, non-overkilling tanks, and even a lucky baneling or two. I just don't get the same tug-of-war feel in the vast majority of SC2 games.
I guess those mistakes are from that fact that battles end so fast. I even imagine that it will be cool if game was at the same speed but when battle begins speed of the game slows a little so player could micro more and spectator could enjoy the battle more... %)
On September 21 2011 19:26 Thermia wrote: I just love watching BW games because there's a kind of awe I feel watching players like Flash and Jaedong play - I played terran up to a C in iccup a couple years back now and holy hell did I have to work to get there, and there were still so many glaring holes in my play. Watching the best BW players in the world go at it is like watching a masterpiece unfold; I know there's no way I could ever even approach their skill level no matter how much I worked at it. And, even at the pro level, there's huge differences between the best, the good, the decent, and the "scrubs." It makes upsets more enjoyable to me just because I know how damn hard it is to beat someone that's only moderately better than you.
In contrast, SC2 games, even at the GSL level, are often full of mistakes and awful unit control even with vastly reduced mechanical requirements. Many abilities are designed to simply remove micro from the game for both players (FF, fungal, conc shell) instead of add micro (reaver drops, lurkers vs marines, vulture mines). Battles totalling 200+ supply are over in mere seconds because everything dies so damn fast with clumped units and mindless aoe like colossi, hellions, non-overkilling tanks, and even a lucky baneling or two. I just don't get the same tug-of-war feel in the vast majority of SC2 games. Finally, most of the time pro games just don't really look that impressive. As a high master's player who has rarely played since season 1 ended, I watch pro games and, generally, can do the same things that they do. Marine splitting, stim kiting, dropping 3 places at once, whatever. Sure, I don't do it as well and I sure as hell don't know the timings for hardly anything, but it seems like my play and the pros play isn't too different - there just isn't that feeling of "holy shit this guy is amazing, how the hell does he do all that?"
On September 21 2011 19:26 Thermia wrote: In contrast, SC2 games, even at the GSL level, are often full of mistakes and awful unit control even with vastly reduced mechanical requirements. Many abilities are designed to simply remove micro from the game for both players (FF, fungal, conc shell) instead of add micro (reaver drops, lurkers vs marines, vulture mines). Battles totalling 200+ supply are over in mere seconds because everything dies so damn fast with clumped units and mindless aoe like colossi, hellions, non-overkilling tanks, and even a lucky baneling or two. I just don't get the same tug-of-war feel in the vast majority of SC2 games.
I guess those mistakes are from that fact that battles end so fast. I even imagine that it will be cool if game was at the same speed but when battle begins speed of the game slows a little so player could micro more and spectator could enjoy the battle more... %)
sorry but WHAT?!?! no its not supposed to be like that...
of course OSL/MSL have a ton of history now but its the design of the league to hype matches and players. just take the TSL3 as an example...we had hype and everything and a good story (thorzain beating the first gsl champion and winning the whole thing). GSL took the first step by making the GSTL last for 2 months...i wanna see them go further and make a "new" system for their normal league. go gom!
Disagree with people saying the problem is with SC2 players not being good enough... SC2 the game does not mechanically allow for hyper-micro and was developed with the anti-micro mindset (Casuals is where the money is). Nony explained this well with the comparison of BW carrier and SC2 carrier.
On September 21 2011 21:44 Sm3agol wrote: Edit: What he ^^ said, but.....it's not a problem with SC2, it's a problem with the players not being good enough yet.
As someone who played SC2 for a year before deciding to try and like BW after continually seeing people say it is far superior...I don't get it.
What I see in SC2 is not a lack of micro-intensive units, but merely the current inability of even the best players to micro well enough without sacrificing macro yet. I see BW players controlling units far better than their SC2 counterparts. I see people botching simple FF and mis-storming at the highest level of SC2 STILL. In a MLG final, a player still had 2 factorys mis-rallied and lost two freaking thors for nothing. SC2 players just aren't good enough for high drama games yet, plus i don't feel the game is balanced well enough yet. T has such massive micro potential, while Z and P have much less, even though they aren't even using all the resources available to them STILL.
I cant agree. I can say this a year ago but not now. Amount of players' mistakes get lower and lower but still the game doesn't look better for me. There is so little things left to develop. Again the battles are so fast that a player cant physically micro better. If you'll say that players dont use all of their abilities or units then let see at BW. Nobody uses Ghosts, Ensnare, Hallucinations, Scouts. But you cant say that players are bad.
On September 21 2011 20:27 infinity2k9 wrote: It's down to many elements but SC2 progames simply are not impressive... like i can't tell the difference between supposedly the very best of the best and say, high ladder players. Well i can tell the difference but the fundamentals are so similar. Compare this to the giant leaps of skill from S class downwards. Plus players very often have their own style you can recognize, which is very much watered down in SC2. All of it together makes for tons and tons of bland games where someone goes for a unit composition and wins or loses. It's telling when you ask SC2 fans what some very good games are they very often just say 'gimmick' games where there was lots of nukes or stuff like that. This despite there being shitloads of tournaments constantly, hundreds of high level games played every game even.
Also why do people think that somehow if Flash or whoever switched they could reach some new found level of skill? You can't get blood from a stone and you can't get micro out of horrible units like the Colossus either. If SC2 stopped being patched at 1.4, just for the sake of argument.. would anyone expect it honestly to 'evolve' any significant amount? A year from now you'd end up with just refined versions of the same shit that people are already doing. The metagame that people keep going on about is being pushed heavily by patches not real evolution in gameplay. The game is simply limited in it's current form.
this is a great point that i never really thought about that much. its true when you see a player like jangbi and you immediately expect STORMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM or soo who's hydra timings are almost perfected or reach and his carriers and manlots, or even fantasy's terrorist vultures!
but SC2 players are all so plain and very forgettable. they all end up using the same strats and there's nothing really identifiable for them. although, i cannot say for certain if this is a result of the game itself or if the progamers are to fault.
Greater complexity often emerges from greater simplicity, and BW is quite simple (at least it was when it came out). Most of the things that make it good were not even thought to be there in the beginning, it was the pro-scene that made it what it is now; the micro tricks, maps, strategies, etc. they were not there from the beginning, but had to be discovered and developed by people that had nothing to do with the ones that initially developed the game.
I like to make an analogy with soccer. Imagine the times when it was invented, the plan was simple: Get the ball inside your opponent's goal. Since then, complex strategies and abilities were developed to make it what it is now. BW was similar, a game with poor AI that left much more room for the player to develop different sets of rules and skills, and they would only get more and more complex as days passed (Don't forget that BW was also all about cheese in its first years).
On the other hand, the SC2 scene is pretty much ruled entirely by Blizzard. It's like they tried to impose a way of playing the game that would leave no room for further development by having complex in-built mechanics like smart casting and even a smarter AI. These things make the game much more noob-friendly and certainly even more entertaining to play (I fell such a great relief when Stalkers wouldn't f*ck around a ramp like Dragoons used to -.-) But sadly, this system is not that great for the growth of the pro-scene of the game, because it makes it a lot more boring to watch... and that's my main point.
I haven't played SC2 in months but I enjoy watching it, it's become similar to a 'real' sport for me (I watch soccer, but haven't played it since high-school). If you want this scene to really grow, you can't focus entirely on what 'the community' wants by just adding fancy things that make the game enjoyable for the general public. That's the opposite of what happened with BW, most of us could only watch koreans owning it up, knowing that we'd never be able to do such amazing things. We were real spectators, wether we played/complained or not didn't matter, because we knew that it was the pros (koreans, not foreigners) that dictated how the game developed, and we were fine with it.
Take Jaedong's muta micro for example, watching it was delightful because we knew we'd never be able to do such thing... have you ever said, 'Whoa, you can win with only mutas!' after seeing him, and went on to try it on b.net just to get smashed? I sure did. Compare that with fungal growth, it's a much easier ability to deploy when you try it, and the next time you watch it on a pro-match you won't be as impressed as before.
Now, why do people watch sports? not because they want to be good at it, but because they want to be entertained, and you can only achieve that with things that are impossible to do for the spectator. No such thing currently exists on SC2, all the abilities that would require an overwhelming ammount of practice/skill were predicted by Blizzard and ruled out with the intention of making them more accesible for the 'community'.
I think Blizzard had two choices in the beginning, they could either make a 'simple' game similar to BW, or one that everybody would get hooked to by adding fancier mechanics. Their choice was obvious.
MVP was kinda A-class i think and he actually won at least one game vs Flash (in MSL)
LOL What the HELL is your definition of A CLASS player?!?!?!?!!?
Here is what A class player is.
Jangbi Fantasy Hydra Leta Sea Zero and etc
Since there is only 4 S class (maybe 5) players as in Flash Jaedong Bisu Stork and pre-retirement Effort
MVP would be considered like C class, hes lifetime 50% player and hes way worse than players like Snow, Turn, Soulkey, Movie, etcetc who would be considered B class players.
At this moment i really dont think so. Overall yes but top level players are kinda the same. I mean of course Flash > MVP and Jaedong >>> NesTea but SC2 doesnt offer too much for player to show. I think if Flash and Jaedong would switch to SC2 they will be kinda similar to MVP and Nestea in this game.
SC2 is more limited in skill-dependence, that's what i want to say.Last edit: 2011-09-21 22:05:57
I disagree. RTS isnt all about mechanics. The reason why TBLS reigns over all is not only cuz theyre better at micro macro, but their understanding of the game, intelligence, mind games and sheer brilliance.
comparing Flash to MVP from bw to SC2 is like comparing Lebron to a regular NBA Small forward and telling them to play in college basketball...
On September 21 2011 15:26 CaucasianAsian wrote: BW seemed all about micro and unit positioning of your entire army. SC2 to me, feels almost like a complete 180.
concussive shells: lol u wanted to micro against a terran? colossus: rofl sup hydra i dont need micro. or a good storm. sentrys: rofl sup force fields mean i can control the terrain. you shall not pass! infestor: rofl u thought plague sucked? try maelstrom + plague. oh it's also mad cheap and you don't need to research it! broodlord: rofl u thought guardians were bad? how about tiny zerglings being shot from one. rofl sup.
sigh..... that's what we get from the company that created command and conquer 4.
This post is the truth. From day 1, SC2 was doomed to be more boring than BW, and the oldschool forumers here have been hypothesising about and discussing this since before the beta.
pretty much nothing more to contribute in gameplay differences, but one thing independent of gameplay that sc2 lacks is prestige.
there's like a "major" sc2 tournament every damn week it seems, from mlg to eswc to ipl to nasl to gsl to whatever you want. Two or three years into the scene a win at mlg #7, gsl #5, etc isn't going to be super memorable or prestigious.
it's good for the players in prize pool winnings, but less impressive for the fans and for individual production values. I always reference the osl/msl intro thread for threads like these; each tournament had awesome unique/creative intros, whereas any generic sc2 tournament X can out up a neat graphic but it's not the same hype feeling. Prestige/history makes the viewer more interested and more hyped up.
MVP was kinda A-class i think and he actually won at least one game vs Flash (in MSL)
LOL What the HELL is your definition of A CLASS player?!?!?!?!!?
Yo man calm down. He took a game off Flash in the MSL Ro16 (or Ro8? I forgot already). He was Woongjin's T ace (lolololololol woongjin terrans lololololololol). C class? Not really--he was at least a mediocre A-teamer (though I guess that's "B-minus-class" or whatever).
Anyway, I might want to actually watch this broadcast hmm...
MVP was kinda A-class i think and he actually won at least one game vs Flash (in MSL)
LOL What the HELL is your definition of A CLASS player?!?!?!?!!?
Yo man calm down. He took a game off Flash in the MSL Ro16 (or Ro8? I forgot already). He was Woongjin's T ace (lolololololol woongjin terrans lololololololol). C class? Not really--he was at least a mediocre A-teamer (though I guess that's "B-minus-class" or whatever).
Anyway, I might want to actually watch this broadcast hmm...
The BW stuff starts at around an hour and seven minutes in.
Gave a lot of good insight (some I've heard before), but it was good hearing a lot of these nostalgic comments coming out.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
Lots of interesting SC2 finals: DIMAGA vs Mana, Naama vs Mana, DRG vs Thorzain, DRG vs sC, and that's only from the first year, there will be plenty more.
Interesting... maybe but there is no history behind them. There is no tragedy and no emotions. Just tournamets played for few days.
Well that isn't something you can just make. That will take time to develop.
On September 21 2011 15:26 CaucasianAsian wrote: BW seemed all about micro and unit positioning of your entire army. SC2 to me, feels almost like a complete 180.
concussive shells: lol u wanted to micro against a terran? colossus: rofl sup hydra i dont need micro. or a good storm. sentrys: rofl sup force fields mean i can control the terrain. you shall not pass! infestor: rofl u thought plague sucked? try maelstrom + plague. oh it's also mad cheap and you don't need to research it! broodlord: rofl u thought guardians were bad? how about tiny zerglings being shot from one. rofl sup.
sigh..... that's what we get from the company that created command and conquer 4.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
Lots of interesting SC2 finals: DIMAGA vs Mana, Naama vs Mana, DRG vs Thorzain, DRG vs sC, and that's only from the first year, there will be plenty more.
Interesting... maybe but there is no history behind them. There is no tragedy and no emotions. Just tournamets played for few days.
Well that isn't something you can just make. That will take time to develop.
I don't know, like Incontrol I'm skeptical it ever will develop with Sc2's "hey look a new tournament every week" structure.
I get bored out of my mind watching sc2 most of time, some of the finals mentioned in this thread was "dimaga vs mana" I almost fell asleep. Lol production tab in sc2..
One little thing I don't like in sc2 tournaments is that they seem to prefer bo7 finals (and semifinals). It makes the first games less meaningful and uninteresting. The shorter series also allows players to focus and create a special strategy for the occasion. In bo7 that kind of preparation usually doesn't pay off because winning one map is less meaningful. Instead players are better off just fine-tuning their fundamentals and doing the same thing over and over.
On September 22 2011 03:22 laguu wrote: One little thing I don't like in sc2 tournaments is that they seem to prefer bo7 finals (and semifinals). It makes the first games less meaningful and uninteresting. The shorter series also allows players to focus and create a special strategy for the occasion. In bo7 that kind of preparation usually doesn't pay off because winning one map is less meaningful. Instead players are better off just fine-tuning their fundamentals and doing the same thing over and over.
well the community wanted it because of all the cheese in early tournaments. but i have to agree...back to osl/msl style
sc2 would be better off if there were less tournaments. Or at least big ones. With major titles getting handed out every week or two. A players time in the sun is short. In bw there were 2 tournaments. And when a player would win one. He would be the best for a couple of months until next osl or msl came around.
On September 22 2011 03:16 Ares[Effort] wrote: I get bored out of my mind watching sc2 most of time, some of the finals mentioned in this thread was "dimaga vs mana" I almost fell asleep. Lol production tab in sc2..
While I played a lot of Brood War I didn't watch much of it. I couldn't tell you why, but it always felt super slow to me. I mean the tight micro was always interesting, but the games overall weren't as much. I would generally tab out a lot and go back when I thought I heard excitement. SC2 games (unless say Goody is playing) always feel really fast paced to me - though I would be hard pressed to explain why. I also find that the fact that almost everything has English casts another huge boon.
SC2 has had some great games, NASL finals as an example. Dunno if it is fair to compare good games from a 1 year old game to good games from a 13 year old game.
That said it may just be a personal pref kind of thing. Some people liking one more than the other. I do hope we see the reaver and the vulture (or something similar) make a return, but I also think people haven't totally figured out the current units. I mean watch some games from 6-7 months ago and compare it to how people play now, a lot has changed.
*As a footnote on my BW watching, I had moved on to other games before 1/2 of the awesome games I hear about were played. If I had stayed on a bit longer I might have a totally different opinion.
That said it may just be a personal pref kind of thing. Some people liking one more than the other. I do hope we see the reaver and the vulture (or something similar) make a return, but I also think people haven't totally figured out the current units. I mean watch some games from 6-7 months ago and compare it to how people play now, a lot has changed.
Oh man, reavers made me hold my breath with every scarab.
It's the game. Screaming fangirls and higher skill levels don't hurt, but the truth is that BW's engine and UI limitations make for a much better spectator experience. Watching a 200/200 bioball of marines and marauders clumped together shoulder to shoulder like penguins, all being micro'd on 1 hotkey will never be epic. It'll never look like war.
Meh. I'm tempted to go into some long rant about the lack of moving shot and the design of units like the colossus but it's all been said before. All we can hope is that Blizzard does a good job with the expansions and that, if they don't, BW outlives its inferior sequel.
I have to go along with this preparation thing. You guys gotta realize how cool it was in that OSL finals. Jangbi basically SUPER meta-ed Fantasy in so many ways.
On September 22 2011 03:22 laguu wrote: One little thing I don't like in sc2 tournaments is that they seem to prefer bo7 finals (and semifinals). It makes the first games less meaningful and uninteresting. The shorter series also allows players to focus and create a special strategy for the occasion. In bo7 that kind of preparation usually doesn't pay off because winning one map is less meaningful. Instead players are better off just fine-tuning their fundamentals and doing the same thing over and over.
If I recall, a korean post made a comment that the GSL finals were of lower quality more because of the longer prep times, that resulted in fine-tuned 1-sided games when compared to events like MLG.
On September 22 2011 03:22 laguu wrote: One little thing I don't like in sc2 tournaments is that they seem to prefer bo7 finals (and semifinals). It makes the first games less meaningful and uninteresting. The shorter series also allows players to focus and create a special strategy for the occasion. In bo7 that kind of preparation usually doesn't pay off because winning one map is less meaningful. Instead players are better off just fine-tuning their fundamentals and doing the same thing over and over.
If I recall, a korean post made a comment that the GSL finals were of lower quality more because of the longer prep times, that resulted in fine-tuned 1-sided games when compared to events like MLG.
i would like to read that post... and why would that be a reason? if one player is not able to prepare for an important game he should lose. and OSL/MSL even ahd prep time in the group stages
I think the assumption that there isn't enough of a skill difference for a Flash or a Jaedong to dominate the SC2 scene because of a lessening of mechanical skill required is a bit misguided. The difference between a godlike terran such as Flash and a mediocre terran such as Bogus or MVP wasn't mostly mechanical, they all had really good mechanics and, while Flash's were better, the difference wasn't massive enough to define why he was better.
The difference lied nearly wholly in decision making, strategical development, and game sense, which are still a huge part of SC2 in a way, though somewhat differently for each of them. Moreover, considering the large number of mistakes even the best SC2 players make in every game, and the stunning lack of mistakes a Flash makes in a more difficult game that was BW, even if he was dropped in the current scene he would be a great player.
To the general point of the thread, I loved the BW discussion, especially the part about too much information given in the UI. A specific example I can think of is during the famous game on HBR between YellOw and Bisu. YellOw is doing this massive lurker/hydra drop aggression, then, after killing Bisu's main, tech switches to mutalisks. The audience has no idea this is happening and flips a shit when the mutas pop. In SC2, the audience would know 5 minutes beforehand that mutas were coming, and it would be much less of an impactful moment.
Think of it like a game of soccer. Consider the first goal of this game:
Pato gets a pass and turns on the afterburners and blows past the Barcalona defense. This suddenness made this goal extremely exciting to watch, on top of the context of the match. Suspense comes from not knowing what is going to happen definitionally, and having the production tab (specifically, though the others contribute to this problem as well) takes away a lot of this. If we knew Pato was going to attempt to smoke past the Barca defense, the goal itself would have been a lot less exciting. This isn't the perfect metaphor, but I hope it at least illustrates my point.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
Lots of interesting SC2 finals: DIMAGA vs Mana, Naama vs Mana, DRG vs Thorzain, DRG vs sC, and that's only from the first year, there will be plenty more.
Interesting... maybe but there is no history behind them. There is no tragedy and no emotions. Just tournamets played for few days.
Well that isn't something you can just make. That will take time to develop.
On September 21 2011 15:26 CaucasianAsian wrote: BW seemed all about micro and unit positioning of your entire army. SC2 to me, feels almost like a complete 180.
concussive shells: lol u wanted to micro against a terran? colossus: rofl sup hydra i dont need micro. or a good storm. sentrys: rofl sup force fields mean i can control the terrain. you shall not pass! infestor: rofl u thought plague sucked? try maelstrom + plague. oh it's also mad cheap and you don't need to research it! broodlord: rofl u thought guardians were bad? how about tiny zerglings being shot from one. rofl sup.
sigh..... that's what we get from the company that created command and conquer 4.
... what?
I believe he's referencing Dustin Browder's game design history.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
Lots of interesting SC2 finals: DIMAGA vs Mana, Naama vs Mana, DRG vs Thorzain, DRG vs sC, and that's only from the first year, there will be plenty more.
Interesting... maybe but there is no history behind them. There is no tragedy and no emotions. Just tournamets played for few days.
Well that isn't something you can just make. That will take time to develop.
On September 21 2011 15:26 CaucasianAsian wrote: BW seemed all about micro and unit positioning of your entire army. SC2 to me, feels almost like a complete 180.
concussive shells: lol u wanted to micro against a terran? colossus: rofl sup hydra i dont need micro. or a good storm. sentrys: rofl sup force fields mean i can control the terrain. you shall not pass! infestor: rofl u thought plague sucked? try maelstrom + plague. oh it's also mad cheap and you don't need to research it! broodlord: rofl u thought guardians were bad? how about tiny zerglings being shot from one. rofl sup.
sigh..... that's what we get from the company that created command and conquer 4.
... what?
I believe he's referencing Dustin Browder's game design history.
Ah I see. I actually didn't know Browder had worked for EA. An odd way to word that.
On September 22 2011 05:28 Zergneedsfood wrote: I have to go along with this preparation thing. You guys gotta realize how cool it was in that OSL finals. Jangbi basically SUPER meta-ed Fantasy in so many ways.
Even though Jangbi lost, it's clear that he knows that Fantasy ALWAYS gets siege first rather than mines when he 14ccs
So I mean THAT kind of thing is really fun to watch and figure out.
uuuuuh you kinda HAVE to get siege, and every sane person gets it, it's no secret. if you'd get mines, you'd die, since the goons that have been firing at your bunker would own you.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
Lots of interesting SC2 finals: DIMAGA vs Mana, Naama vs Mana, DRG vs Thorzain, DRG vs sC, and that's only from the first year, there will be plenty more.
Interesting... maybe but there is no history behind them. There is no tragedy and no emotions. Just tournamets played for few days.
Well that isn't something you can just make. That will take time to develop.
On September 21 2011 15:26 CaucasianAsian wrote: BW seemed all about micro and unit positioning of your entire army. SC2 to me, feels almost like a complete 180.
concussive shells: lol u wanted to micro against a terran? colossus: rofl sup hydra i dont need micro. or a good storm. sentrys: rofl sup force fields mean i can control the terrain. you shall not pass! infestor: rofl u thought plague sucked? try maelstrom + plague. oh it's also mad cheap and you don't need to research it! broodlord: rofl u thought guardians were bad? how about tiny zerglings being shot from one. rofl sup.
sigh..... that's what we get from the company that created command and conquer 4.
... what?
I believe he's referencing Dustin Browder's game design history.
Ah I see. I actually didn't know Browder had worked for EA. An odd way to word that.
My bad, he helped work for C&C 5, not 4. My apologies to anyone who was offended I suppose. Although the similarities of units from the C&C series and Starcraft 2 is very large. Mainly the corruptor from C&C is exactly like the baneling. The Annihilator Triport from C&C is almost exactly like the colossus. Those are just off the top of my head.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
Lots of interesting SC2 finals: DIMAGA vs Mana, Naama vs Mana, DRG vs Thorzain, DRG vs sC, and that's only from the first year, there will be plenty more.
Interesting... maybe but there is no history behind them. There is no tragedy and no emotions. Just tournamets played for few days.
Well that isn't something you can just make. That will take time to develop.
On September 21 2011 15:26 CaucasianAsian wrote: BW seemed all about micro and unit positioning of your entire army. SC2 to me, feels almost like a complete 180.
concussive shells: lol u wanted to micro against a terran? colossus: rofl sup hydra i dont need micro. or a good storm. sentrys: rofl sup force fields mean i can control the terrain. you shall not pass! infestor: rofl u thought plague sucked? try maelstrom + plague. oh it's also mad cheap and you don't need to research it! broodlord: rofl u thought guardians were bad? how about tiny zerglings being shot from one. rofl sup.
sigh..... that's what we get from the company that created command and conquer 4.
... what?
I believe he's referencing Dustin Browder's game design history.
Ah I see. I actually didn't know Browder had worked for EA. An odd way to word that.
My bad, he helped work for C&C 5, not 4. My apologies to anyone who was offended I suppose. Although the similarities of units from the C&C series and Starcraft 2 is very large. Mainly the corruptor from C&C is exactly like the baneling. The Annihilator Triport from C&C is almost exactly like the colossus. Those are just off the top of my head.
On September 22 2011 05:28 Zergneedsfood wrote: I have to go along with this preparation thing. You guys gotta realize how cool it was in that OSL finals. Jangbi basically SUPER meta-ed Fantasy in so many ways.
Even though Jangbi lost, it's clear that he knows that Fantasy ALWAYS gets siege first rather than mines when he 14ccs
So I mean THAT kind of thing is really fun to watch and figure out.
uuuuuh you kinda HAVE to get siege, and every sane person gets it, it's no secret. if you'd get mines, you'd die, since the goons that have been firing at your bunker would own you.
You may be right and maybe I'm just dumb, but I believe there might be a few games where that isn't the case.
I absolutely agree with incontrl that the fact that there are too many tournaments and no one big "national championship" type of tournament is really making the sc2 scene boring in the long run.
I also agree with tyler that the fact casters can now know everything via unit production tab is really taking the excitement out of the game from viewing perspective.
On September 22 2011 05:28 Zergneedsfood wrote: I have to go along with this preparation thing. You guys gotta realize how cool it was in that OSL finals. Jangbi basically SUPER meta-ed Fantasy in so many ways.
Even though Jangbi lost, it's clear that he knows that Fantasy ALWAYS gets siege first rather than mines when he 14ccs
So I mean THAT kind of thing is really fun to watch and figure out.
uuuuuh you kinda HAVE to get siege, and every sane person gets it, it's no secret. if you'd get mines, you'd die, since the goons that have been firing at your bunker would own you.
You may be right and maybe I'm just dumb, but I believe there might be a few games where that isn't the case.
Just forget I said anything.
Actually, you aren't necessarily wrong - with FD pushes, you generally almost always get mines before siege. Also, going vulture before add-on has been common recently, and that sometimes circumvents siege for earlier mines. However, the playstyle of that is completely different. But i'm getting off-topic ;] Great thread - i watched SOTG because of it and now i'm itching to get back into BW.
On September 22 2011 05:43 Cruncharoo wrote: Thorzain vs Naniwa final in TSL3 was an unforgettable final
To be blatantly honest, I forgot about it until you brought it up. :/
On September 22 2011 07:12 quirinus wrote:
On September 22 2011 05:28 Zergneedsfood wrote: I have to go along with this preparation thing. You guys gotta realize how cool it was in that OSL finals. Jangbi basically SUPER meta-ed Fantasy in so many ways.
Even though Jangbi lost, it's clear that he knows that Fantasy ALWAYS gets siege first rather than mines when he 14ccs
So I mean THAT kind of thing is really fun to watch and figure out.
uuuuuh you kinda HAVE to get siege, and every sane person gets it, it's no secret. if you'd get mines, you'd die, since the goons that have been firing at your bunker would own you.
You may be right and maybe I'm just dumb, but I believe there might be a few games where that isn't the case.
Just forget I said anything.
Actually, you aren't necessarily wrong - with FD pushes, you generally almost always get mines before siege. Also, going vulture before add-on has been common recently, and that sometimes circumvents siege for earlier mines. However, the playstyle of that is completely different. But i'm getting off-topic ;] Great thread - i watched SOTG because of it and now i'm itching to get back into BW.
You missed the part where he was talking about double CC.
To me, BW just seems more real. It has become more than a game.
In the STOG, they talked about GGPLAY's reverse sweep as one of the most memorable series in bw, but what made it even more emotional for me and other korean esports viewers was knowing GGPLAY as a person and the road he had walked. Let me give you a few examples. + Show Spoiler +
1. In a special interview by GGPLAY's dad on the children's day, he said that they were too poor to send ggplay to college despite him being a good student. Also, talked about how he once lost a game because he was too hungry
2. In a duel tournament game where he was losing, when a bug/glitch happened, he just accepted the loss and did not ask for a regame.
3. It is a picture of ggplay holding onto some rice cake he got to give them to his hanbit teammates.
4. A fan who came to seoul to watch ggplay play wrote on a forum saying how ggplay got him a taxi and even paid for the fare
5. ggplay's famous pose
Seeing GGPLAY reverse sweep Iris and his dad running onto the stage to hug him, I felt like I was watching a documentary than a video game tournament. Right now I feel like SC2 lacks the genuineness that BW has
Not being a huge BW fan, since I was mostly introduced to the scene through SC2 beta, most of the comments on this thread seem biased. Of course SC2 is going to be a game with no micro/easy macro/boring to watch etc, if you've already decided that's the way it is. If you can't see the difference between microing your units in engagements and not, I don't know what game you are watching.
I don't think SC2 is boring or an easy game. Sure it might not be as hard as BW, but that doesn't make it any less of a great game. I'm sure the quality of games will rise even higher as people become even better than before.
On September 22 2011 16:40 Sotamursu wrote: Not being a huge BW fan, since I was mostly introduced to the scene through SC2 beta, most of the comments on this thread seem biased. Of course SC2 is going to be a game with no micro/easy macro/boring to watch etc, if you've already decided that's the way it is. If you can't see the difference between microing your units in engagements and not, I don't know what game you are watching.
I don't think SC2 is boring or an easy game. Sure it might not be as hard as BW, but that doesn't make it any less of a great game. I'm sure the quality of games will rise even higher as people become even better than before.
Well, it's just an opinion that SC2 is boring to watch, and a fact that its macro is easier and, from the perspective of a Korean BW pro, easy in comparison. Whether its micro is significantly easier or less important is debatable. I think there's a lot of untapped potential for multi-tasking, and if anything small micro mistakes are too punishing because of how powerful AoE spells are given SC2's unit clumping, so I'll give you that one. Micro is very very important in SC2. But BW's micro is more back and forth, with each player responding to the other over long battles (Dragoons vs. Vultures with spider mines is a good example). SC2's micro tends be more along the lines of "split your Marines or lose the game" and "Feedback that Ghost before he can EMP or lose the game". I think that's what people are getting at when they complain about micro in SC2.
On September 22 2011 05:43 Cruncharoo wrote: Thorzain vs Naniwa final in TSL3 was an unforgettable final
True, but more so because of how dramatic and close it was than because of the games. The only three things I remember from that series are the Marine-SCV rush in game 1, Thorzain's hold on Crossfire and the "Chill get out" moment in the last game. So overall... not a lot.
The raw quality of gameplay just isn't there to make the games memorable. Partly because the players aren't that good yet (as Artosis pointed out), partly because the game doesn't allow for as much display of raw skill (compared to BW).
On September 22 2011 16:40 Sotamursu wrote: I'm sure the quality of games will rise even higher as people become even better than before.
I dont see much of quality rising with current state of the game. Again SC2 = checkers, BW = chess.
No. By my logic you can't say checkers is a shitty game because chess is harder. Actually you're analogy is still bad. BW requires better mechanics. Moving wooden pieces isn't any harder no matter what you play.
On September 22 2011 16:40 Sotamursu wrote: Not being a huge BW fan, since I was mostly introduced to the scene through SC2 beta, most of the comments on this thread seem biased. Of course SC2 is going to be a game with no micro/easy macro/boring to watch etc, if you've already decided that's the way it is. If you can't see the difference between microing your units in engagements and not, I don't know what game you are watching.
I don't think SC2 is boring or an easy game. Sure it might not be as hard as BW, but that doesn't make it any less of a great game. I'm sure the quality of games will rise even higher as people become even better than before.
Blizzard disagrees with you lol... There was a very clear goal and mind set with the changes SC2 recieved compared to BW. A watering down.
On September 22 2011 16:40 Sotamursu wrote: Not being a huge BW fan, since I was mostly introduced to the scene through SC2 beta, most of the comments on this thread seem biased. Of course SC2 is going to be a game with no micro/easy macro/boring to watch etc, if you've already decided that's the way it is. If you can't see the difference between microing your units in engagements and not, I don't know what game you are watching.
I don't think SC2 is boring or an easy game. Sure it might not be as hard as BW, but that doesn't make it any less of a great game. I'm sure the quality of games will rise even higher as people become even better than before.
On September 22 2011 16:40 Sotamursu wrote: Not being a huge BW fan, since I was mostly introduced to the scene through SC2 beta, most of the comments on this thread seem biased. Of course SC2 is going to be a game with no micro/easy macro/boring to watch etc, if you've already decided that's the way it is. If you can't see the difference between microing your units in engagements and not, I don't know what game you are watching.
I don't think SC2 is boring or an easy game. Sure it might not be as hard as BW, but that doesn't make it any less of a great game. I'm sure the quality of games will rise even higher as people become even better than before.
On September 22 2011 16:40 Sotamursu wrote: Sure it might not be as hard as BW, but that doesn't make it any less of a great game.
By your logic Checkers are even to Chess even though it's much more easy
On September 22 2011 16:40 Sotamursu wrote: I'm sure the quality of games will rise even higher as people become even better than before.
I dont see much of quality rising with current state of the game. Again SC2 = checkers, BW = chess.
No. By my logic you can't say checkers is a shitty game because chess is harder. Actually you're analogy is still bad. BW requires better mechanics. Moving wooden pieces isn't any harder no matter what you play.
Checkers have much less skill-cap then Chess thats what i want to say And i dont want to say that Checkers are shitty but i cant say that it's a GREAT game
SC2 commentators should stop using the production tabs and such. But i doubt it will matter, with SC2 it's usually pretty easy to see "who's ball is bigger." lol.
On September 22 2011 22:09 avilo wrote: SC2 commentators should stop using the production tabs and such. But i doubt it will matter, with SC2 it's usually pretty easy to see "who's ball is bigger." lol.
I remember when Penguin Plug was introduced and it totally rocked the foundation for casting or just playing in general. Ohhhhhhh man nostalgia!
On September 22 2011 22:09 avilo wrote: SC2 commentators should stop using the production tabs and such. But i doubt it will matter, with SC2 it's usually pretty easy to see "who's ball is bigger." lol.
I listen to SOTG on my morning commute and I haven't gotten to this part yet. Why is that so bad? I have seen it said a lot, but it has never bothered me. I like insightful casting more than simple play by play and I see it as nothing more than a tool to help with that.
On September 22 2011 22:09 avilo wrote: SC2 commentators should stop using the production tabs and such. But i doubt it will matter, with SC2 it's usually pretty easy to see "who's ball is bigger." lol.
I listen to SOTG on my morning commute and I haven't gotten to this part yet. Why is that so bad? I have seen it said a lot, but it has never bothered me. I like insightful casting more than simple play by play and I see it as nothing more than a tool to help with that.
Basically, the argument is that it takes the suspense and the tension away.
In BW, heroic comebacks were pretty common, and just because you looked out of it didn't mean that you couldn't come back with a few strategic victories.
It was also commonplace in BW commentating that there weren't a lot of indicators as to who was winning. There was the resource tab and supply indicators, but a lot of times people just don't pay attention to those.
That made things exciting because there was a lot more suspense about who was coming out on top.
But in SC2, it's a lot more focused on those production tabs. It takes away the suspense of how the game is going because all you really need to look at is the supply indicators to know...
Yeah ____ is going to win, he's 50 supply ahead, this game is over.
OR
Yeah, he's producing 50000 hydralisks from his larvae injected hatcheries, let's count them.
It takes the fun out of observing a Zerg increase his drone production rather than building say....zerglings to defend an early zealot attack or seeing a Zerg open up three hatch muta but then throws down a den, and when you see hydralisks pop out instead of mutas, you go HOLY SHIT.
On September 22 2011 05:43 Cruncharoo wrote: Thorzain vs Naniwa final in TSL3 was an unforgettable final
Agree. But I come to think of it that's the only one I remember being good. And I follow ESPORTs.
All I remember from that final is someone killing his own pylon which cancelled his collosus and collusus range upgrade at the same time and I was like "wow what a noobfest." There was nothing really interesting about it other than that it was Team Liquid's own thing. The players themselves were incredibly boring.
On September 22 2011 05:43 Cruncharoo wrote: Thorzain vs Naniwa final in TSL3 was an unforgettable final
Agree. But I come to think of it that's the only one I remember being good. And I follow ESPORTs.
All I remember from that final is someone killing his own pylon which cancelled his collosus and collusus range upgrade at the same time and I was like "wow what a noobfest." There was nothing really interesting about it other than that it was Team Liquid's own thing. The players themselves were incredibly boring.
Don't want to hype the event that it was, but Thorzain holding off like that didn't give you nerdchills? Naniwa staking it all in a bo1 for 15k with an ALL IN was boring?
Edit: Also Chill lagging didn't gave a memorable moment?
What I remeber from TSL final were like 2-3 decent games at the beginning, and then absolutely terrible play in the following sets. Only kept watching because it was TL and I was watching with a friend -_- I clearly don't have the same expectations as SC2 people. I thought NaDa's 4-3 win against the other korean terran last MLG was horrible (and I was watching because of NaDa), and yet people were liking it. I just don't get it.
On September 22 2011 23:32 corumjhaelen wrote: What I remeber from TSL final were like 2-3 decent games at the beginning, and then absolutely terrible play in the following sets. Only kept watching because it was TL and I was watching with a friend -_- I clearly don't have the same expectations as SC2 people. I thought NaDa's 4-3 win against the other korean terran last MLG was horrible (and I was watching because of NaDa), and yet people were liking it. I just don't get it.
BW does that to us,but at the same time I watch SC2 with an open mind because while it is essentially the same its a completely different game design resulting different gameplay,still not the most impressed with what I see.
On September 22 2011 23:32 corumjhaelen wrote: What I remeber from TSL final were like 2-3 decent games at the beginning, and then absolutely terrible play in the following sets. Only kept watching because it was TL and I was watching with a friend -_- I clearly don't have the same expectations as SC2 people. I thought NaDa's 4-3 win against the other korean terran last MLG was horrible (and I was watching because of NaDa), and yet people were liking it. I just don't get it.
BW does that to us,but at the same time I watch SC2 with an open mind because while it is essentially the same its a completely different game design resulting different gameplay,still not the most impressed with what I see.
I think you have a point, but since I have seen a few SC2 games that I quite liked (I remember a nice ZvP on Metalopolis at one MLG I think), I'm less inclined to believe it. BUt yeah, I think the game design encourages boring strategies too.
On September 22 2011 16:40 Sotamursu wrote: I don't think SC2 is boring or an easy game. Sure it might not be as hard as BW, but that doesn't make it any less of a great game. I'm sure the quality of games will rise even higher as people become even better than before.
Same with BW but at a faster rate eh? The only thing holding people back in BW is physical limitation, sc2 from what I've seen has pretty much hit a skill cap already. (A reasonable one I mean.)
Not being a huge BW fan, since I was mostly introduced to the scene through SC2 beta, most of the comments on this thread seem biased. Of course SC2 is going to be a game with no micro/easy macro/boring to watch etc, if you've already decided that's the way it is.
It's the exact opposite of that. I mean, right when sc2 was announced, people here (who were obviously all BW fans) went crazy. Hell, who didn't? BW was on a steady rise, as was esports, and sc2 was the perfect final step in turning Starcraft into a global phenomenon. (We were seeing that already with the TSL).
I can't speak for everyone but I was so damn excited to play the beta. I tried so hard to love sc2. My friend and I played so much, literally alternating living at each others houses and following the wakeup-play sc2-eat-sleep schedule. Eventually, we both got to #1 diamond (highest league) and we looked at each other and basically had this conversation.
"dude.. this was.. fun.." "yea...." "..." "Is it just me or were none of those hundreds of games actually that great?" "It's kinda like BW but worse in everyway" "yea, I mean it's not a bad game..." "..." "It'll get better man, it's just beta." "Yea, sc2's going to be so sweet, I'm super pumped for the release"
If you can't see the difference between microing your units in engagements and not, I don't know what game you are watching.
There is a difference but it's pathetic really. "Oh god, look at that sick stalker micro!" Really? In BW, even lowly D+ players are chided for not microing at that level, and now we're freaking out because a "pro" is doing it? The fact that it's unusual to see stalker blink micro is sad to begin with. "Oh man, what a sick marine split! He took on all those banelings!" Yea, ok. I've seen more impressive marine splits vs lurkers from a C+ player. (in regards to the iconic Foxer/Kyrx game)
On September 22 2011 16:40 Sotamursu wrote: Not being a huge BW fan, since I was mostly introduced to the scene through SC2 beta, most of the comments on this thread seem biased. Of course SC2 is going to be a game with no micro/easy macro/boring to watch etc, if you've already decided that's the way it is. If you can't see the difference between microing your units in engagements and not, I don't know what game you are watching.
I don't think SC2 is boring or an easy game. Sure it might not be as hard as BW, but that doesn't make it any less of a great game. I'm sure the quality of games will rise even higher as people become even better than before.
Thats cause you haven watched or played BW.
I have, but not as much as SC2.
it's really not a matter of just watching BW. you really have to understand WHY it is so great. It's kind of hard to explain because you kind of have to play and understand both BW and SC2 at a relatively high level to truly appreciate the differences in BW and SC2. Ask anyone with this level of understanding and they will tell you that BW is much more interesting to watch
On September 22 2011 16:40 Sotamursu wrote: I don't think SC2 is boring or an easy game. Sure it might not be as hard as BW, but that doesn't make it any less of a great game. I'm sure the quality of games will rise even higher as people become even better than before.
Same with BW but at a faster rate eh? The only thing holding people back in BW is physical limitation, sc2 from what I've seen has pretty much hit a skill cap already. (A reasonable one I mean.)
Not being a huge BW fan, since I was mostly introduced to the scene through SC2 beta, most of the comments on this thread seem biased. Of course SC2 is going to be a game with no micro/easy macro/boring to watch etc, if you've already decided that's the way it is.
It's the exact opposite of that. I mean, right when sc2 was announced, people here (who were obviously all BW fans) went crazy. Hell, who didn't? BW was on a steady rise, as was esports, and sc2 was the perfect final step in turning Starcraft into a global phenomenon. (We were seeing that already with the TSL).
Exactly. I almost fell out of my chair when I visited Blizzards website just for fun back in 2007 and then saw that awesome trailer, announcing the sequel of my beloved game. I have been following the development since. In the end, I am disappointed. Just disappointed.
On September 22 2011 05:43 Cruncharoo wrote: Thorzain vs Naniwa final in TSL3 was an unforgettable final
Agree. But I come to think of it that's the only one I remember being good. And I follow ESPORTs.
All I remember from that final is someone killing his own pylon which cancelled his collosus and collusus range upgrade at the same time and I was like "wow what a noobfest." There was nothing really interesting about it other than that it was Team Liquid's own thing. The players themselves were incredibly boring.
Don't want to hype the event that it was, but Thorzain holding off like that didn't give you nerdchills? Naniwa staking it all in a bo1 for 15k with an ALL IN was boring?
Edit: Also Chill lagging didn't gave a memorable moment?
I assume you are talking about game 7 of the TSL3.
No it didn't(it wasn't boring though) because how engagements happened was still just 2 guys 1a-ing each other with giant balls of bio love(or a protoss death ball) and press T and E for win. Not to mention that Naniwa floated 1500 minerals. There was no impressive micro to speak off, only that Thorzain wedged inself into a nice position(which is pre-battle and not in-battle). Moreover, it didn't have multipronged attacks and action all over the map but its more of a I am here you are there and we meet somewhere in the middle with our giant forces. There was no action all over the map, since then there have been much better games in my opinion.
The thing which was nice about the TSL was that it was a community driven event.
What I have found impressive in SC2 so far is only Marine splitting and Storm dodging(I think I saw Puma beat the shit out of Mana with some incredible(it probably wouldn't even matter but still it did happen) storm dodging.
The things I like about SC2 has more to do with the players itself then the game, I am a fan of Boxer and therefore I root for any SlayerS (Terran teehee), aswell as Nada and July and White-Ra(more gg=more skill) and especially Hero, but thats cause he looks slightly like Jaedong.
Also what I miss is the storylines, however that is most likely due to the fact that SC2 hasn't been out that long(and as such storylines are not devolped yet) and on top of that its like, he won X big tournament, ow cool....see you in whatever is literally next week or month.
But yes, the production tabs take away much of the suspense but the thing is what are you going to do about it?Intentionally not use the production tabs?that would be kind of off.
Also, the thing about BW is not that not only is it visually impressive(clarity wise) once you understand how fucking hard it is to actually micro units(which admittedly has to do somewhat with the flawed IU) and macro units at the same time(with no MBS etc) then you understand my fucking god these guys are good. In order to understand why BW is such a good (spectatorship) game you need to understand the game much better, which is actually a problem.
Ow and due to the nature of the game, supply discrepancy's even when you could see them means alot less then in SC2 due to having many units which can turn the tide in favor of you while being very supply efficient for cost(Lurkers, vultures, HTs etc).
Xenocide hit it on the head imo. I was a huge BW nerd. I massed games on ICcup, watched proleague, hosted MBC/OGN/Proleague watching parties at my place, etc. I loved BW.
When Sc2 was announced, I was ecstatic! I followed everything through the production evolution of the game, and so on. I got the beta the minute it came out, and played the crap out of it. I even played in an MLG event, (albeit horribly, lol). I wanted this game to be awesome, and to replace BW. I wanted it to succeed.
But after just a few months... I got bored of it. Winning a game didn't feel satisfying. Many of my losses felt like bullshit. You just don't get that "rush" you do in BW when you know you're outplaying someone. I quickly lost interest even in watching sc2 games.
It's just dull... imo of course. Nothing can compare to the atmosphere of BW, either in game or the pro scene.
edit: And the casters try to over-hype stuff. "NICE STORMS OH MY GOD AMAZING STORMS!"
Really? Because he selected his whole army, and spammed t+click all over the enemy ball, (which is on a-move and makes no attempt to spread out)
"INCREDIBLE EMPS GOING DOWN SO NICE" Really? You just mash e and click everywhere. Same with force fields and fungal etc.
On September 23 2011 03:26 Haemonculus wrote: edit: And the casters try to over-hype stuff. "NICE STORMS OH MY GOD AMAZING STORMS!"
Really? Because he selected his whole army, and spammed t+click all over the enemy ball, (which is on a-move and makes no attempt to spread out)
"INCREDIBLE EMPS GOING DOWN SO NICE" Really? You just mash e and click everywhere. Same with force fields and fungal etc.
if you're a caster, would you rather speak in monotone, endlessly tell people about how much better bw is and these players are fools and you really have no idea why you're casting such shitty mechanics in the first place?
you're going just a bit too far with the criticism/hate.
The importance of BW's higher skill cap gets way way overstated by some people. SC2 could have twice the mechanical skill cap of BW and still be an inferior spectator experience just on account of being worse at translating that skill into a visual story that can be followed by audiences.
You don't need to know anything about BW's UI limitations or the higher skill involved to find the battle that occurs starting at around 24:00 more engrossing than anything that SC2's Colossus deathballs or penguin marines have ever produced.
It comes down mainly to BW's pathing AI, which causes to armies to spread apart while on the move. This makes battles take place over a larger area and, since unit DPS is less concentrated, over a longer period of time. That BW's equivalent units tend to be more positional and defensive doesn't hurt of course (compare Lurker/Defiler to Baneling/Infestor), but SC2's overly efficient AI is the main culprit I think. And in the case air battles, BW's are so much more back and forth and exciting because of moving shot.
On September 22 2011 05:43 Cruncharoo wrote: Thorzain vs Naniwa final in TSL3 was an unforgettable final
Agree. But I come to think of it that's the only one I remember being good. And I follow ESPORTs.
All I remember from that final is someone killing his own pylon which cancelled his collosus and collusus range upgrade at the same time and I was like "wow what a noobfest." There was nothing really interesting about it other than that it was Team Liquid's own thing. The players themselves were incredibly boring.
Don't want to hype the event that it was, but Thorzain holding off like that didn't give you nerdchills? Naniwa staking it all in a bo1 for 15k with an ALL IN was boring?
Edit: Also Chill lagging didn't gave a memorable moment?
I assume you are talking about game 7 of the TSL3.
No it didn't(it wasn't boring though) because how engagements happened was still just 2 guys 1a-ing each other with giant balls of bio love(or a protoss death ball) and press T and E for win. Not to mention that Naniwa floated 1500 minerals. There was no impressive micro to speak off, only that Thorzain wedged inself into a nice position(which is pre-battle and not in-battle). Moreover, it didn't have multipronged attacks and action all over the map but its more of a I am here you are there and we meet somewhere in the middle with our giant forces. There was no action all over the map, since then there have been much better games in my opinion.
The thing which was nice about the TSL was that it was a community driven event.
What I have found impressive in SC2 so far is only Marine splitting and Storm dodging(I think I saw Puma beat the shit out of Mana with some incredible(it probably wouldn't even matter but still it did happen) storm dodging.
The things I like about SC2 has more to do with the players itself then the game, I am a fan of Boxer and therefore I root for any SlayerS (Terran teehee), aswell as Nada and July and White-Ra(more gg=more skill) and especially Hero, but thats cause he looks slightly like Jaedong.
Also what I miss is the storylines, however that is most likely due to the fact that SC2 hasn't been out that long(and as such storylines are not devolped yet) and on top of that its like, he won X big tournament, ow cool....see you in whatever is literally next week or month.
But yes, the production tabs take away much of the suspense but the thing is what are you going to do about it?Intentionally not use the production tabs?that would be kind of off.
Also, the thing about BW is not that not only is it visually impressive(clarity wise) once you understand how fucking hard it is to actually micro units(which admittedly has to do somewhat with the flawed IU) and macro units at the same time(with no MBS etc) then you understand my fucking god these guys are good. In order to understand why BW is such a good (spectatorship) game you need to understand the game much better, which is actually a problem.
Ow and due to the nature of the game, supply discrepancy's even when you could see them means alot less then in SC2 due to having many units which can turn the tide in favor of you while being very supply efficient for cost(Lurkers, vultures, HTs etc).
This is what I mean. Why do you have to understand the game better, or appreciate the greater skill involved, to find BW's long back and forth battles more exciting than SC2's deathballs annihilating each other in seconds.
To be honest, i try to follow the Brood War scene as much as I possibly can. And don't get me wrong, that i absolutely love it and its really exciting and the production value is amazing, but having no English commentary for like anything really hurts its appeal for me.
I know that for most people it isn't a problem for most people but for a relatively new watcher like me, i need english commentary to FULLY enjoy the game
On September 23 2011 06:18 pStar wrote: To be honest, i try to follow the Brood War scene as much as I possibly can. And don't get me wrong, that i absolutely love it and its really exciting and the production value is amazing, but having no English commentary for like anything really hurts its appeal for me.
I know that for most people it isn't a problem for most people but for a relatively new watcher like me, i need english commentary to FULLY enjoy the game
There's no need to be sorry, in fact I think a high percentage of bw fan began by watching English commentaries. I'd avise you to look at nukethestars channel, and even older VOD such as the bw day9 daylies, klazart and cholera channel, the triple commentaries etc... There are quite a few ressources if you're willing to watch older games, and it will help you to get to know the scene and its history. And if you ask bw people for a game to watch, even with an english commentary, they'll probably answer you with enough VoDs for the coming month^^
On September 23 2011 06:18 pStar wrote: To be honest, i try to follow the Brood War scene as much as I possibly can. And don't get me wrong, that i absolutely love it and its really exciting and the production value is amazing, but having no English commentary for like anything really hurts its appeal for me.
I know that for most people it isn't a problem for most people but for a relatively new watcher like me, i need english commentary to FULLY enjoy the game
It's sort of ironic; I would think that most people who are used to BW would prefer korean commentators because they have much more energy. However, I do think that most people did start watching english commentaries. I would recommend Klazart, Cholera, and Diggity as the poster above me said.
People are just going to take it to the next level. Maybe not within in the next year, but expect 1 by 1 zergling splits and since macro is so "easy" even marine micro -10x on par to automaton 2000. You never know man.
This thread sums it up very nicely and i thank you for that. It seems like another bw vs sc2 thread, but come on...you can't deny that.
I wish and always wished that sc2 can be great and i will be able to watch the games with excitement and nerd chills, but it has not happened yet and i almost lost my hopes. Yes i know the game is still young and expansions and patches are coming. Frankly, this is what everybody was saying for quite a long time now and i tell you what...not a single thing has changed since the release of sc2. I mean, the game is good, sure...but it is still miles away from bw.
The difference is based in the fundamental principles of those two games. MBS, automine, smartcasting. If you add the production tabs and unit balls with no significant micro, you get a perfectly boring game. This will never change, unless you change those basic things. I have played it, i have watched it and it just doesn't give me the satisfaction.
Speaking about TSL3. It was a great commuinty event, wow it was really great event. Well, the games themselves were not that entertaining and if we take TSL1 and TSL2 (the greatest foreign bw events ever), the most of the games were more exciting than the the best games of TSL3.
I think the only succes of SC2 so far is that there is a lot of money pour in it all over the place and so many tournaments that players can compete at, which is paradoxically taking away all the excitement and suspense (the stories). I swear most sc2 progamers would tell you, that they have always ejnoyed bw much more than sc2 if they had to be honest. But who cares maaan...it gives them money and it is their job now. Same goes with the commentators and everyone involved who played bw actively. In conclusion SC2 is good game, but really great business opportunity and the business is kind of overwhelming the enjoyment and satisfaction from the game.
I really hope sc2 will surprise me and things will turn around a bit, that the players will learn to use full map and there will be more ongoing battles over the map while drops in the bases and so on. That's what sc2 has potential for, the multitasking is much easier that a very good player should be able to do miracles in it. I mean it is an easy equation is you take 400 apm from bw, take away manual mining and production and you get much more time spent on battles, which could lead into more of action in total. Unfortunately we don't see that in sc2, we usually see ball vs ball one battle and it really has to be fixed.
This is all due to if you take few units away from your army to harass somewhere or to attack the new forming expansion of your opponent, his ball of units will be suddenly bigger than your ball and he will beat you. This thing was taken care of by units like reavers or defilers in bw. I mean how much bigger army could you defend with 4-5 cannons and two reavers in PvZ, how much bigger army could you take care of with several lurkers and dark swarm in ZvP or ZvT and so on. Then you could use some extra units or even whole armies to be harassing somewhere or taking care of new expansions on the map while you were relatively safe. This is missing in sc2 and that's why there is not much going on at the same time, because if you don't have your army together, you die. There should be better ability to defend with smaller army vs bigger one. It should be easier to defend than to attack and there should more clutch units. That is what made bw what it was in my opinion and what is missing in sc2 completely.
edit: The last thing i would like to add: Take real sport like Soccer, ice hockey or american football. What makes it great to watch is player's skill. You go holy shit, this player is sooooooo good, i can't believe that. You see his skill and what makes him the best. This was taken care of in brood war by the mechanics. It is so hard to control the whole game and that it is the skill you can see and compare. BW is tacticswise like chess and skillwise like the real sport. It took so much practice to became any good in it like the real sports. As someone has said, SC2 is like checkers and it is also missing the "holy shit, this player is soooo good, i can't believe that" factor as bw has. This is the obstacle for sc2 to became the "real (e)sport".
On September 23 2011 08:04 Ponyo wrote: People are just going to take it to the next level. Maybe not within in the next year, but expect 1 by 1 zergling splits and since macro is so "easy" even marine micro -10x on par to automaton 2000. You never know man.
The issue isn't that people will never get there. Just give jaedong a keyboard and he'd do that in his sleep. The issue is that it doesn't even help. For ranged you units you want them clumped, ok so 1a. For melee you want them to surround the enemy. Ok, 1a, done.
On September 23 2011 08:04 Ponyo wrote: People are just going to take it to the next level. Maybe not within in the next year, but expect 1 by 1 zergling splits and since macro is so "easy" even marine micro -10x on par to automaton 2000. You never know man.
Theoretically what 'next level' even is there? Things die too quickly a lot of the time for some micro to be even beneficial. The new units are very limited in possibilities mostly. Something like the Thor, what potential is there? Like a lot of new stuff it's always going to be mostly an attack move unit. Without major changes additions the battles are just not going to be as dynamic.
On September 23 2011 06:18 pStar wrote: To be honest, i try to follow the Brood War scene as much as I possibly can. And don't get me wrong, that i absolutely love it and its really exciting and the production value is amazing, but having no English commentary for like anything really hurts its appeal for me.
I know that for most people it isn't a problem for most people but for a relatively new watcher like me, i need english commentary to FULLY enjoy the game
It's sort of ironic; I would think that most people who are used to BW would prefer korean commentators because they have much more energy. However, I do think that most people did start watching english commentaries. I would recommend Klazart, Cholera, and Diggity as the poster above me said.
NukeTheStars always does the OSL, starting here for the most recent one
Also good ol moletrap also has plety of BW videos on his youtube channel. He still does some BW games from time to time, most recent being the MSL finals between flash and zero!
Yeah.. new SC2 fans are kidding themselves if they don't believe that us BW fans were the most hyped ans excited of ALL people regarding SC2. All of us were pumped as heck (you should see all the prebeta theorycrafting). We wanted to game so bad to be good.
On September 23 2011 00:44 Xenocide_Knight wrote: "dude.. this was.. fun.." "yea...." "..." "Is it just me or were none of those hundreds of games actually that great?" "It's kinda like BW but worse in everyway" "yea, I mean it's not a bad game..." "..." "It'll get better man, it's just beta." "Yea, sc2's going to be so sweet, I'm super pumped for the release"
Wow, that's what i actually think about the game. I just cant feel greatness of my games because there is so small place to have fun. In BW depending on my mood i can rush/cheese/proxy when i feel agressive, i can go standart/ultimate builds when i dont want to think, i can go epic macro when i want to play "war games". In SC2 you only can go rush or standart. Most of fun lies in those epic macro games that almost not exist in SC2 maybe except TvT. Also one of the most fun in BW are comebacks that makes you feel like a superman. In SC2 there's so little room for comebacks and most of games end after first battle. These two "fun" moments of the game Macro Warfare and Comebacks are not exist in SC2 and it makes the games not so great and memorable.
On September 23 2011 06:18 pStar wrote: To be honest, i try to follow the Brood War scene as much as I possibly can. And don't get me wrong, that i absolutely love it and its really exciting and the production value is amazing, but having no English commentary for like anything really hurts its appeal for me.
I know that for most people it isn't a problem for most people but for a relatively new watcher like me, i need english commentary to FULLY enjoy the game
It's opposite for me with SC2. I want to hear that epic korean BW commentary for SC2, not the overhyped English commentaries or Chineese commentaries which are just bad.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
I also see it kind of like the current state of the music industry. There's just so much music nowadays, so many genres and subgenres, so much raw output of new music that it's much harder to appreciate and Savior music in general.
I see what you did there.
On September 23 2011 01:05 konadora wrote: i would give this a million stars over 5 if i could
honestly i do want to see some good SC2 games, but even then, personally, BW is and forever will be the best ESPORTS SPORTS EVER.
I just want to hug you for saying that. <3
What makes BW so good is just an interlocking set of conditions that make it difficult to say any one thing is what makes it so attractive overall.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
well to be fair, there werent many good finals when bw was new either. It wasnt until about 2003 that we started getting some good ones.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
well to be fair, there werent many good finals when bw was new either. It wasnt until about 2003 that we started getting some good ones.
Grrr... vs HOT was pretty good, BoxeR vs YellOw and Boxer vs Garimto were epic. Can't say for MSL finals though. So... yeah.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
well to be fair, there werent many good finals when bw was new either. It wasnt until about 2003 that we started getting some good ones.
So, we need to wait 5 years? And you mean that Boxer/Yellow/Reach prime was not epic? So why do everybody love Emperor, Kong and Mantoss so much?
About English commentaries because they were addressed for a few posts:
I actually like the Korean commentary more. I think that a lot of English commentators don't express as much charisma and even when they do it's either soft, sounds forced even, and among other drawbacks that made me not like it.
On the other hand, how could you not like "PLLAAAGGGGUUUUU, or REEBO REEBO REEBO REEBOOOOO"
I mean, the very fact that Korean commentary is saying something like "OOOOOOHH!H!!H!!!!!!! when a scourge is going near a shuttle" makes it more exciting than just
"BUT LOOK AT THIS THERE'S SCOURGE WILL IT GET IT WILL IT GET IT *silence*"
In my honest opinion, I approve of Sayle's commentary in the foreign BW tournaments we will have over most of the commentaries of SC2 players.
He might not have the analytical abilities, but man he is funny, charismatic, and he brings a personality to his commentary that I can respect and appreciate.
On September 23 2011 20:25 Zergneedsfood wrote: I mean, the very fact that Korean commentary is saying something like "OOOOOOHH!H!!H!!!!!!! when a scourge is going near a shuttle" makes it more exciting than just
The only foreign commentator who does it is Tasteless but of course he cant to this:
On September 23 2011 20:25 Zergneedsfood wrote: On the other hand, how could you not like "PLLAAAGGGGUUUUU, or REEBO REEBO REEBO REEBOOOOO"
On September 23 2011 20:25 Zergneedsfood wrote: About English commentaries because they were addressed for a few posts:
I actually like the Korean commentary more. I think that a lot of English commentators don't express as much charisma and even when they do it's either soft, sounds forced even, and among other drawbacks that made me not like it.
On the other hand, how could you not like "PLLAAAGGGGUUUUU, or REEBO REEBO REEBO REEBOOOOO"
I mean, the very fact that Korean commentary is saying something like "OOOOOOHH!H!!H!!!!!!! when a scourge is going near a shuttle" makes it more exciting than just
"BUT LOOK AT THIS THERE'S SCOURGE WILL IT GET IT WILL IT GET IT *silence*"
In my honest opinion, I approve of Sayle's commentary in the foreign BW tournaments we will have over most of the commentaries of SC2 players.
He might not have the analytical abilities, but man he is funny, charismatic, and he brings a personality to his commentary that I can respect and appreciate.
And he brings the "Se-kou-chi" over authentically. Or not, but I don't care.
The reality is that you get what you make of it. BW is a great game that's a lot of fun to watch and SC2 is a great game that's a lot of fun to watch. If you played SC2 and didn't enjoy it then I guess that's too bad. A lot of why the games suck is because the players aren't that good. I imagine that some really good players would totally change the way the game plays because the 1-A deathball style doesn't look very viable against a lot of the new Zerg styles that have been emerging over the last few months.
If you watch the last 2 GSL Code S groups then you'll see several examples of things that would never, ever happen to anyone in a serious BW Tournament and none of the egregious mistakes had to do with the battles being way too fast. It's just players not being good/fast enough to do everything they need to do and also not having the type of practiced builds you see in OSL/MSL - that's for-sure.
But I still think SC2 is great! :-D
[ed]And not to say that amg every SC2 player is TERRIBLE! I guess what I'm saying is that some of it is because there's no SC2 equivalent of BW top level players. There's a lot of players who probably could be there, but they're not. [/ed]
I gotta agree with ShadowWolf, some SC2 matches (i'm not really a huge fan, but I do watch from time to time) that I watched have been quite impressive. I think it was MMA or some terran that consistently dropped a zerg all over the map to eventually win that game a couple of months ago. It was kinda exciting (by SC2 standards). But of course, there was the usual lack of main-army micro and a more spread-out longer-lasting battle. But as mentioned some posts back, this is impossible because of how the units are made. And also because smart-cast makes spellcasting so NON-epic.
Jangbi's storms against Nada will forever be the best storms cast in SC/SC2 history.
On September 24 2011 02:47 konadora wrote: I gotta agree with ShadowWolf, some SC2 matches (i'm not really a huge fan, but I do watch from time to time) that I watched have been quite impressive. I think it was MMA or some terran that consistently dropped a zerg all over the map to eventually win that game a couple of months ago. It was kinda exciting (by SC2 standards). But of course, there was the usual lack of main-army micro and a more spread-out longer-lasting battle. But as mentioned some posts back, this is impossible because of how the units are made. And also because smart-cast makes spellcasting so NON-epic.
Jangbi's storms against Nada will forever be the best storms cast in SC/SC2 history.
See thats the point Kona BW fans shouldn't have to lower the bar to 'enjoy' SC2 =S
On September 24 2011 02:47 konadora wrote: I gotta agree with ShadowWolf, some SC2 matches (i'm not really a huge fan, but I do watch from time to time) that I watched have been quite impressive. I think it was MMA or some terran that consistently dropped a zerg all over the map to eventually win that game a couple of months ago. It was kinda exciting (by SC2 standards). But of course, there was the usual lack of main-army micro and a more spread-out longer-lasting battle. But as mentioned some posts back, this is impossible because of how the units are made. And also because smart-cast makes spellcasting so NON-epic.
Jangbi's storms against Nada will forever be the best storms cast in SC/SC2 history.
See thats the point Kona BW fans shouldn't have to lower the bar to 'enjoy' SC2 =S
One game has had years of play development and an expansion and the other has not. It is sort of a given. They don't really have a choice in the matter. 1999 StarCraft wouldn't compare well to current BW either.
On September 24 2011 02:47 konadora wrote: I gotta agree with ShadowWolf, some SC2 matches (i'm not really a huge fan, but I do watch from time to time) that I watched have been quite impressive. I think it was MMA or some terran that consistently dropped a zerg all over the map to eventually win that game a couple of months ago. It was kinda exciting (by SC2 standards). But of course, there was the usual lack of main-army micro and a more spread-out longer-lasting battle. But as mentioned some posts back, this is impossible because of how the units are made. And also because smart-cast makes spellcasting so NON-epic.
Jangbi's storms against Nada will forever be the best storms cast in SC/SC2 history.
See thats the point Kona BW fans shouldn't have to lower the bar to 'enjoy' SC2 =S
One game has had years of play development and an expansion and the other has not. It is sort of a given. They don't really have a choice in the matter. 1999 StarCraft wouldn't compare well to current BW either.
I never liked that argument because it assumes both games came out under the same gaming environment.
1999 Starcraft -> Took a lot longer for people to start really feeling out the game, becoming a hot shot e-sport, etc (relative to SC2)
2011 SC2 -> Instantly takes off and wipes away BW in terms of viewership. The game is immediately taken up by pros and instantly analyzed, mass-played, and teams form almost immediately.
The context under which both games started out are different. Therefore, there's no point in trying to compare relative success.
The idea is simple: SC2 right now is horribly boring to many, including myself. There are indeed factors of players not doing anything remotely impressive, but there are factors that include the game itself (including clumping up of units) that just look ridiculously lame.
On September 24 2011 02:47 konadora wrote: I gotta agree with ShadowWolf, some SC2 matches (i'm not really a huge fan, but I do watch from time to time) that I watched have been quite impressive. I think it was MMA or some terran that consistently dropped a zerg all over the map to eventually win that game a couple of months ago. It was kinda exciting (by SC2 standards). But of course, there was the usual lack of main-army micro and a more spread-out longer-lasting battle. But as mentioned some posts back, this is impossible because of how the units are made. And also because smart-cast makes spellcasting so NON-epic.
Jangbi's storms against Nada will forever be the best storms cast in SC/SC2 history.
See thats the point Kona BW fans shouldn't have to lower the bar to 'enjoy' SC2 =S
One game has had years of play development and an expansion and the other has not. It is sort of a given. They don't really have a choice in the matter. 1999 StarCraft wouldn't compare well to current BW either.
I never liked that argument because it assumes both games came out under the same gaming environment.
1999 Starcraft -> Took a lot longer for people to start really feeling out the game, becoming a hot shot e-sport, etc (relative to SC2)
2011 SC2 -> Instantly takes off and wipes away BW in terms of viewership. The game is immediately taken up by pros and instantly analyzed, mass-played, and teams form almost immediately.
The context under which both games started out are different. Therefore, there's no point in trying to compare relative success.
The idea is simple: SC2 right now is horribly boring to many, including myself. There are indeed factors of players not doing anything remotely impressive, but there are factors that include the game itself (including clumping up of units) that just look ridiculously lame.
Well I agree that it came out in a totally different environment and we should expect SC2 to progress much faster. However it still takes time for various play styles to evolve and the game is 2 expansions from being complete.
I think SC2 is very enjoyable to play and watch right now. Other people might disagree and they have some valid points, but the fact that it is enjoyable (for me and many others) to watch now is at least a good indicator of things to come.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
well to be fair, there werent many good finals when bw was new either. It wasnt until about 2003 that we started getting some good ones.
So, we need to wait 5 years? And you mean that Boxer/Yellow/Reach prime was not epic? So why do everybody love Emperor, Kong and Mantoss so much?
Boxer was good and he smoked everyone, kinda like nestea. Grrr.... is like Huk , etc.
First of all the finals back then weren't good because the game was being patched so often that people had to totally revise their whole game plan. Which is kind of why sc2 isnt that appealing to me right now (we still have 2 more expansions as well).
Go back and watch some tourney finals from pre 2003 and tell me that their play isnt terrible.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
well to be fair, there werent many good finals when bw was new either. It wasnt until about 2003 that we started getting some good ones.
So, we need to wait 5 years? And you mean that Boxer/Yellow/Reach prime was not epic? So why do everybody love Emperor, Kong and Mantoss so much?
Boxer was good and he smoked everyone, kinda like nestea. Grrr.... is like Huk , etc.
First of all the finals back then weren't good because the game was being patched so often that people had to totally revise their whole game plan. Which is kind of why sc2 isnt that appealing to me right now (we still have 2 more expansions as well).
Go back and watch some tourney finals from pre 2003 and tell me that their play isnt terrible.
If you're willing to forget about your extensive post-2006 bw knowledge a bit, there were some extremely epic games from that era... Far more entertaining to watch than anything I've seen in sc2 at least, and not worse play than that "progame" :
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
well to be fair, there werent many good finals when bw was new either. It wasnt until about 2003 that we started getting some good ones.
So, we need to wait 5 years? And you mean that Boxer/Yellow/Reach prime was not epic? So why do everybody love Emperor, Kong and Mantoss so much?
Boxer was good and he smoked everyone, kinda like nestea. Grrr.... is like Huk , etc.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
well to be fair, there werent many good finals when bw was new either. It wasnt until about 2003 that we started getting some good ones.
So, we need to wait 5 years? And you mean that Boxer/Yellow/Reach prime was not epic? So why do everybody love Emperor, Kong and Mantoss so much?
Boxer was good and he smoked everyone, kinda like nestea. Grrr.... is like Huk , etc.
First of all the finals back then weren't good because the game was being patched so often that people had to totally revise their whole game plan. Which is kind of why sc2 isnt that appealing to me right now (we still have 2 more expansions as well).
Go back and watch some tourney finals from pre 2003 and tell me that their play isnt terrible.
If you're willing to forget about your extensive post-2006 bw knowledge a bit, there were some extremely epic games from that era... Far more entertaining to watch than anything I've seen in sc2 at least, and not worse play than that "progame" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LpPDlHNdJs&feature=player_embedded
Whats wrong with that game? I mean, I know Calm vs Fantasy is an acquired taste but that game wasn't the worst modern tvz I've ever seen.
On September 24 2011 02:47 konadora wrote: I gotta agree with ShadowWolf, some SC2 matches (i'm not really a huge fan, but I do watch from time to time) that I watched have been quite impressive. I think it was MMA or some terran that consistently dropped a zerg all over the map to eventually win that game a couple of months ago. It was kinda exciting (by SC2 standards). But of course, there was the usual lack of main-army micro and a more spread-out longer-lasting battle. But as mentioned some posts back, this is impossible because of how the units are made. And also because smart-cast makes spellcasting so NON-epic.
Jangbi's storms against Nada will forever be the best storms cast in SC/SC2 history.
See thats the point Kona BW fans shouldn't have to lower the bar to 'enjoy' SC2 =S
One game has had years of play development and an expansion and the other has not. It is sort of a given. They don't really have a choice in the matter. 1999 StarCraft wouldn't compare well to current BW either.
Why is this stupid argument repeated so much? Did you even read the thread? There's tons of reasons listed why SC2 is just simply designed that way and it's not going to turn into BW style battles later on. Not only that but people come into SC2 with insane mechanics thanks to the many years of BW, so it's totally irrelevant what 1999 Starcraft was like (it was entertaining anyway back regardless). The 'play development' translates to SC2.
And going by how Blizzard is designing the game the expansion isn't going to add anything we are looking for, they are happy with how it is already it seems. Unfortunately though this is going to be pretty boring to anyone who spectated BW regularly. I appreciate you enjoy it but it's objectively inferior to watch, so so many generic games won by one boring battle.
Also Sayle is better than any SC2 caster i've heard, which was a nice surprise when i first watched his casts. Also he's probably the only one willing to cast for 14+ hours in a row.
On September 24 2011 02:47 konadora wrote: I gotta agree with ShadowWolf, some SC2 matches (i'm not really a huge fan, but I do watch from time to time) that I watched have been quite impressive. I think it was MMA or some terran that consistently dropped a zerg all over the map to eventually win that game a couple of months ago. It was kinda exciting (by SC2 standards). But of course, there was the usual lack of main-army micro and a more spread-out longer-lasting battle. But as mentioned some posts back, this is impossible because of how the units are made. And also because smart-cast makes spellcasting so NON-epic.
Jangbi's storms against Nada will forever be the best storms cast in SC/SC2 history.
See thats the point Kona BW fans shouldn't have to lower the bar to 'enjoy' SC2 =S
One game has had years of play development and an expansion and the other has not. It is sort of a given. They don't really have a choice in the matter. 1999 StarCraft wouldn't compare well to current BW either.
Why is this stupid argument repeated so much? Did you even read the thread? There's tons of reasons listed why SC2 is just simply designed that way and it's not going to turn into BW style battles later on. Not only that but people come into SC2 with insane mechanics thanks to the many years of BW, so it's totally irrelevant what 1999 Starcraft was like (it was entertaining anyway back regardless). The 'play development' translates to SC2.
And going by how Blizzard is designing the game the expansion isn't going to add anything we are looking for, they are happy with how it is already it seems. Unfortunately though this is going to be pretty boring to anyone who spectated BW regularly. I appreciate you enjoy it but it's objectively inferior to watch, so so many generic games won by one boring battle.
Also Sayle is better than any SC2 caster i've heard, which was a nice surprise when i first watched his casts. Also he's probably the only one willing to cast for 14+ hours in a row.
I already addressed this argument earlier in the thread. Did you read it? Sounds like you just have some serious rose tinted goggles on.
You have no idea what is going to come with HOTS and LOTV. Saying you know it won't change anything is silly.
On September 24 2011 02:47 konadora wrote: I gotta agree with ShadowWolf, some SC2 matches (i'm not really a huge fan, but I do watch from time to time) that I watched have been quite impressive. I think it was MMA or some terran that consistently dropped a zerg all over the map to eventually win that game a couple of months ago. It was kinda exciting (by SC2 standards). But of course, there was the usual lack of main-army micro and a more spread-out longer-lasting battle. But as mentioned some posts back, this is impossible because of how the units are made. And also because smart-cast makes spellcasting so NON-epic.
Jangbi's storms against Nada will forever be the best storms cast in SC/SC2 history.
See thats the point Kona BW fans shouldn't have to lower the bar to 'enjoy' SC2 =S
One game has had years of play development and an expansion and the other has not. It is sort of a given. They don't really have a choice in the matter. 1999 StarCraft wouldn't compare well to current BW either.
Why is this stupid argument repeated so much? Did you even read the thread? There's tons of reasons listed why SC2 is just simply designed that way and it's not going to turn into BW style battles later on. Not only that but people come into SC2 with insane mechanics thanks to the many years of BW, so it's totally irrelevant what 1999 Starcraft was like (it was entertaining anyway back regardless). The 'play development' translates to SC2.
And going by how Blizzard is designing the game the expansion isn't going to add anything we are looking for, they are happy with how it is already it seems. Unfortunately though this is going to be pretty boring to anyone who spectated BW regularly. I appreciate you enjoy it but it's objectively inferior to watch, so so many generic games won by one boring battle.
Also Sayle is better than any SC2 caster i've heard, which was a nice surprise when i first watched his casts. Also he's probably the only one willing to cast for 14+ hours in a row.
I already addressed this argument earlier in the thread. Did you read it? Sounds like you just have some serious rose tinted goggles on.
You have no idea what is going to come with HOTS and LOTV. Saying you know it won't change anything is silly.
Indeed, the only way to fix SC2 is with drastic changes in HOTS. There's still a chance but... tbh it's not likely to happen
The best and most exciting sc2 final according to me was the TSL3. Other SC2 finals lacked the hype, tension and excitement.
But 4 of my top 5 sc finals probably belong to BW. Maybe it's because of sc2 tourneys are usually 1-3 day events, except for GSL finals (but GSL finals are... Bad).
On September 24 2011 15:42 XXXSmOke wrote: I think most people are still in love with BW, i mean its just obvious BW games are epic, sc2 games (gsl finals cough cough) just lack.
Heres the problem tho, I along with many people share a similair problem
BW has a ridiclous skill cap compared to SC2
For example
My ICCUP record before sc2 beta 20-50 Rank D (had 4 accounts with a smiliar record best was D+)
My sc2 record end of seas 1 520-470 losses Master League
I love to watch BW but the majority of my time goes to sc2 because i like to watch and learn what im playing.
If I could be as "good" as i am at sc2 at BW I would enjoy BW 1000x more.
BW is just plain hard guys and while the pro games will always be epic, its just to damn hard for the Master league scrubs to play.
you don't have to play the sport to enjoy the sport F1, tennis, GOLF even.
What we simply need is OGN casters and OGN production value, evident by WCG, it is soo much better to watch that then GSL or any SC2 I have seen so far.
On September 25 2011 11:21 Kipsate wrote: About excitement and all that
What we simply need is OGN casters and OGN production value, evident by WCG, it is soo much better to watch that then GSL or any SC2 I have seen so far.
Truth,OGN's production just made it so enjoying to watch SC2.
On September 21 2011 15:26 CaucasianAsian wrote: BW seemed all about micro and unit positioning of your entire army. SC2 to me, feels almost like a complete 180.
concussive shells: lol u wanted to micro against a terran? colossus: rofl sup hydra i dont need micro. or a good storm. sentrys: rofl sup force fields mean i can control the terrain. you shall not pass! infestor: rofl u thought plague sucked? try maelstrom + plague. oh it's also mad cheap and you don't need to research it! broodlord: rofl u thought guardians were bad? how about tiny zerglings being shot from one. rofl sup.
sigh..... that's what we get from the company that created command and conquer 4.
You could do this exact thing to BW from an SC2 perspective, you're not offering any real argumentation, you're just mindlessly ranting with more feelings and opinions than any real facts. Strawmanning and personifying abilities you don't like from sc2 in a critique of the game offers nothing to the discussion or the thread.
On September 21 2011 15:26 CaucasianAsian wrote: BW seemed all about micro and unit positioning of your entire army. SC2 to me, feels almost like a complete 180.
concussive shells: lol u wanted to micro against a terran? colossus: rofl sup hydra i dont need micro. or a good storm. sentrys: rofl sup force fields mean i can control the terrain. you shall not pass! infestor: rofl u thought plague sucked? try maelstrom + plague. oh it's also mad cheap and you don't need to research it! broodlord: rofl u thought guardians were bad? how about tiny zerglings being shot from one. rofl sup.
sigh..... that's what we get from the company that created command and conquer 4.
You could do this exact thing to BW from an SC2 perspective, you're not offering any real argumentation, you're just mindlessly ranting with more feelings and opinions than any real facts. Strawmanning and personifying abilities you don't like from sc2 in a critique of the game offers nothing to the discussion or the thread.
While he words it rather poorly, there is truth to his words, there are alot of micro reducing abilities on Sc2 and units which have little micro with the removal of moving shot for practically every unit.
Concussive shells-it slows your units, and you can't do anything to escape after that, it is anti-micro. Collosi are 1-a powerfull mobile siege units, they require little to no micro. Sentries force field ability is once again, anti-micro, if you are in it you can't do shit about it unless you have burrow for specific units(roaches) or massive units/dships. Force fields creates chokes and walls which are impenetrable and thus limit the movement and the micro of the opponent, it is one-side micro. Infestor: He is right, although its not as powerfull as plague, fungal frowth not only does excessive damage but is once again anti-micro, once you are fungalled you can't do anything to stop the damage from happening or move your army at all, it is once again onesided anti-micro ability. Broodlords: well thats just a difference.
He does have a point although he words it rather poorly this way.
All in all, there are alot of anti-micro abilities and units which require little micro to be used effectivly.
On September 21 2011 15:26 CaucasianAsian wrote: BW seemed all about micro and unit positioning of your entire army. SC2 to me, feels almost like a complete 180.
concussive shells: lol u wanted to micro against a terran? colossus: rofl sup hydra i dont need micro. or a good storm. sentrys: rofl sup force fields mean i can control the terrain. you shall not pass! infestor: rofl u thought plague sucked? try maelstrom + plague. oh it's also mad cheap and you don't need to research it! broodlord: rofl u thought guardians were bad? how about tiny zerglings being shot from one. rofl sup.
sigh..... that's what we get from the company that created command and conquer 4.
You could do this exact thing to BW from an SC2 perspective, you're not offering any real argumentation, you're just mindlessly ranting with more feelings and opinions than any real facts. Strawmanning and personifying abilities you don't like from sc2 in a critique of the game offers nothing to the discussion or the thread.
Please try, I don't think you can. A lot of pros are frustrated with these units too because they're en masse abilities that aren't hard to pull off, and are impossible to prevent.
Lockdown: The player using it has to figure out how to get his ghost in the perfect position and have the concentration to click in the right places. The player vs it can kill the ghost or run around. Concussive shells mean the terran just A-moves and the other player has to avoid combat until they have an overwhelming army because your units will be too slow to overcome any kind of odds.
stasis: the player using it has to get their arbiters into position, has to click in the right places. The player vs it can use EMP or snipe it with goliaths while spreading tanks well. You can't prevent or guarentee all stasises, making it interesting.
psi storm: kills a lot of lower tier units very quickly, but needs good hand speed and concentration to pull off especially if you want to do a lot of them. defending player spreads out as best he can and avoids clumping too much. In sc2 you can just spam t with your whole army selected and the counter micro I guess is ghosts with emp which is sort of ok I guess but neither are very interesting and as I recall storm is kinda weak in sc2.
Reavers: take a lot of micro and precision and carrying around in shuttles to be effective. Must target effectively. Big reward when the scarb goes off right, but hard to use en-masse. Anti micro is sniping and good spreads and having the concentration to see it fly into the corner of your base so you can run your peons away. Collusus are units you just 1a with your whole army and the enemy can sorta spread I guess but micro with collusus is super basic since they can just walk on top of your army. Some kind of valk sniping or whatever exists, which is sorta neat but definitely a downgrade from the reaver and a little too basic to be interesting.
dark swarm: zerg player attempts to get defilers into positions where they can cast swarms that are difficult to deal with, and terrans irradiate them and run away from them and push back asap for very interesting battles.
I'm trying to think of spells in BW that are anti-micro and it's really hard to come up with any.
On September 25 2011 11:21 Kipsate wrote: About excitement and all that
What we simply need is OGN casters and OGN production value, evident by WCG, it is soo much better to watch that then GSL or any SC2 I have seen so far.
Truth,OGN's production just made it so enjoying to watch SC2.
i'm eagerly waiting for the next one hour to pass~~
Well there is Statis Field and Maelstrom, the latter can only be used effectily versus Zerg, and the aoe of it is too small and the use of it too small aswell, due to the fact that BW's units don't clump you will use alot of energy to get like.......8 zerglings, wooptie fucking doo. Thats why you get High templars instead and only use Maelstrom in cases of Mutas or Mass Ultra(and even if that is true usually High templars/Archons are a way better gas investment).
Stasis Field is a flying arbiter, tier 3 unit with a big arrow on it saying EMP/Kill me. and once again Stasis will only hit a few units due to the no clumping and the fact that good terrans spread out their tanks(both against storm and against Stasis Field).
so.....well there is Lockdown I suppose and technically Ensnare.
However Lockdown is an incredibly heavy gast investment and if you can pull off that fucking micro without smartcasting sucesfully while not losing all your ghosts(and thus your gas investment) then you deserve to win the game. As for Ensnare, I suppose technically it could be used more but Broodlings is much better against Mech and against High templars. Perhaps Queens could be used more in ZvP I suppose.
On September 24 2011 02:47 konadora wrote: I gotta agree with ShadowWolf, some SC2 matches (i'm not really a huge fan, but I do watch from time to time) that I watched have been quite impressive. I think it was MMA or some terran that consistently dropped a zerg all over the map to eventually win that game a couple of months ago. It was kinda exciting (by SC2 standards). But of course, there was the usual lack of main-army micro and a more spread-out longer-lasting battle. But as mentioned some posts back, this is impossible because of how the units are made. And also because smart-cast makes spellcasting so NON-epic.
Jangbi's storms against Nada will forever be the best storms cast in SC/SC2 history.
See thats the point Kona BW fans shouldn't have to lower the bar to 'enjoy' SC2 =S
One game has had years of play development and an expansion and the other has not. It is sort of a given. They don't really have a choice in the matter. 1999 StarCraft wouldn't compare well to current BW either.
Why is this stupid argument repeated so much? Did you even read the thread? There's tons of reasons listed why SC2 is just simply designed that way and it's not going to turn into BW style battles later on. Not only that but people come into SC2 with insane mechanics thanks to the many years of BW, so it's totally irrelevant what 1999 Starcraft was like (it was entertaining anyway back regardless). The 'play development' translates to SC2.
And going by how Blizzard is designing the game the expansion isn't going to add anything we are looking for, they are happy with how it is already it seems. Unfortunately though this is going to be pretty boring to anyone who spectated BW regularly. I appreciate you enjoy it but it's objectively inferior to watch, so so many generic games won by one boring battle.
Also Sayle is better than any SC2 caster i've heard, which was a nice surprise when i first watched his casts. Also he's probably the only one willing to cast for 14+ hours in a row.
I already addressed this argument earlier in the thread. Did you read it? Sounds like you just have some serious rose tinted goggles on.
You have no idea what is going to come with HOTS and LOTV. Saying you know it won't change anything is silly.
I very much doubt expansions will change how the game works mechanically. If they do then these expansions may as well be called SC3 and i'll happily give it a shot =].
On September 25 2011 11:56 Kipsate wrote: However Lockdown is an incredibly heavy gast investment and if you can pull off that fucking micro without smartcasting sucesfully while not losing all your ghosts(and thus your gas investment) then you deserve to win the game.
On September 25 2011 11:56 Kipsate wrote: However Lockdown is an incredibly heavy gast investment and if you can pull off that fucking micro without smartcasting sucesfully while not losing all your ghosts(and thus your gas investment) then you deserve to win the game.
On September 25 2011 11:56 Kipsate wrote: However Lockdown is an incredibly heavy gast investment and if you can pull off that fucking micro without smartcasting sucesfully while not losing all your ghosts(and thus your gas investment) then you deserve to win the game.
boxer vs nal_ra...
HiyA vs free too.
Yeah But Hiya went 3(maybe 2?) port cloaked wraith with nukes against Protoss so....
I always get a bit depressed reading posts like this. Posts about how much more skill there was in BW.
I'm an SC2-player and I have never played Brood War in my life. I have the game but being left handed and stuff isn't very easy in a game where you can't remap hotkeys without certain programs (lulz). But as the fairly competetive SC2 player that I am I want a challenge when I play. Don't get me wrong, I'm only in Gold League and to judge from the time it has taken me to get there, it will probably take long before I become bored with it. But I can't help to think about what if it was Brood war I played, an incredibly hard game and so much skill required and I'd probably never be any good at it, always having the goal ahead of me. And how much fun wouldn't it be to watch those BW games everyone is talking about the epicness of? And actually understand them.
I really wish that SC2 can become to me what BW seems to be to so many of you. That the game will evolve in such a way that it becomes that. Not by everything becoming exactly like BW because the game structure is different, that would be impossible, but that players will become so good and think of so many new possibilities that we will think of SC2 now as people think now of SC1 when it was 1 year old.
On September 25 2011 18:21 Nible wrote: I always get a bit depressed reading posts like this. Posts about how much more skill there was in BW.
I'm an SC2-player and I have never played Brood War in my life. I have the game but being left handed and stuff isn't very easy in a game where you can't remap hotkeys without certain programs (lulz). But as the fairly competetive SC2 player that I am I want a challenge when I play. Don't get me wrong, I'm only in Gold League and to judge from the time it has taken me to get there, it will probably take long before I become bored with it. But I can't help to think about what if it was Brood war I played, an incredibly hard game and so much skill required and I'd probably never be any good at it, always having the goal ahead of me. And how much fun wouldn't it be to watch those BW games everyone is talking about the epicness of? And actually understand them.
I really wish that SC2 can become to me what BW seems to be to so many of you. That the game will evolve in such a way that it becomes that. Not by everything becoming exactly like BW because the game structure is different, that would be impossible, but that players will become so good and think of so many new possibilities that we will think of SC2 now as people think now of SC1 when it was 1 year old.
There's a lot of people who play BW and are left handed. I think most just use it normally (like a right handed person), but I've heard at least two reports of people who have the mouse in the left hand and say they think of it as an advantage (one a progamer, one just someone on this forum). So I dunno, being left handed is not much of an excuse. If your keyboard is your right hand you get to use your thumb to mash the a key and the like, whereas with the left hand your index and pinky fingers just have to be long enough to go from a to 0 because twisting the hand to use the thumb on the 0 key is bordering on hyperextension and is way too awkward. I don't know what you think the disadvantage is.
I'm left handed and I played BW pretty frequently. Some notable differences are that when macroing out of my barracks I use my pinky, and ring finger for planting mines, but thats about it actually (for terran).
On September 24 2011 02:47 konadora wrote: I gotta agree with ShadowWolf, some SC2 matches (i'm not really a huge fan, but I do watch from time to time) that I watched have been quite impressive. I think it was MMA or some terran that consistently dropped a zerg all over the map to eventually win that game a couple of months ago. It was kinda exciting (by SC2 standards). But of course, there was the usual lack of main-army micro and a more spread-out longer-lasting battle. But as mentioned some posts back, this is impossible because of how the units are made. And also because smart-cast makes spellcasting so NON-epic.
Jangbi's storms against Nada will forever be the best storms cast in SC/SC2 history.
See thats the point Kona BW fans shouldn't have to lower the bar to 'enjoy' SC2 =S
One game has had years of play development and an expansion and the other has not. It is sort of a given. They don't really have a choice in the matter. 1999 StarCraft wouldn't compare well to current BW either.
We should seriously compile of list of everyone who ever made this ridiculous argument and ignore all of their opinions in any thread that relates to both games. That along with this argument
On September 24 2011 04:27 MattyClutch wrote: You have no idea what is going to come with HOTS and LOTV. Saying you know it won't change anything is silly.
It's irrelevant what will come in the future, what matters is that currently, sc2 is garbage compared to BW. In all aspects. Except for maybe noob friendliness. Just because it might end up as the greatest game of all time 5 years down the road does not change the fact that it's not as good now. Just think about how ridiculous that is. What if a new vehicle (say, a hover craft) came out but wasn't as good as the car.
"Oh, no. Keep using the hovercraft despite it being more expensive and inferior in all aspects. You have no idea, it'll be just as good as the car in like 5 years!" "But.. it's clearly worse right now. I don't see why you're trying to push it so hard." "No, dude. You're so biased. Like, compare the hovercraft to the car when it first came out. The hovercraft is so much better at release, and it can only get better in the future. The car had over a hundred years to develop, you can't expect the hovercraft to compare right now. You're just blinded by nostalgia. Stop living in the past. The car is dead, the hovercraft will replace it." "Whatever, I'm using my car. Tell me when the hovercraft becomes somewhat comparable, then I'll look into getting one"
On September 24 2011 04:27 MattyClutch wrote: You have no idea what is going to come with HOTS and LOTV. Saying you know it won't change anything is silly.
It's irrelevant what will come in the future, what matters is that currently, sc2 is garbage compared to BW. In all aspects. Except for maybe noob friendliness. Just because it might end up as the greatest game of all time 5 years down the road does not change the fact that it's not as good now. Just think about how ridiculous that is. What if a new vehicle (say, a hover craft) came out but wasn't as good as the car.
"Oh, no. Keep using the hovercraft despite it being more expensive and inferior in all aspects. You have no idea, it'll be just as good as the car in like 5 years!" "But.. it's clearly worse right now. I don't see why you're trying to push it so hard." "No, dude. You're so biased. Like, compare the hovercraft to the car when it first came out. The hovercraft is so much better at release, and it can only get better in the future. The car had over a hundred years to develop, you can't expect the hovercraft to compare right now. You're just blinded by nostalgia. Stop living in the past. The car is dead, the hovercraft will replace it." "Whatever, I'm using my car. Tell me when the hovercraft becomes somewhat comparable, then I'll look into getting one"
Holy shit that's an excellent analogy. I'm using that one from now on
On September 24 2011 05:31 SpoR wrote: Boxer was good and he smoked everyone, kinda like nestea. Grrr.... is like Huk , etc.
It's not correct to compare current scene with old-school scene. Grrrr... won OSL back then. Huk is not near to win GSL. Boxer was number one Kespa for about 2 years, won 2 WCG in a row, there was no one better then him. Nestea is like one of 3 or 4 best players and is eliminated from WCG.
On September 24 2011 05:31 SpoR wrote: Go back and watch some tourney finals from pre 2003 and tell me that their play isnt terrible.
Yes, i watched those games recently. But i can confidently say that nor me nor you will beat one of them even today.
On September 24 2011 15:42 XXXSmOke wrote: If I could be as "good" as i am at sc2 at BW I would enjoy BW 1000x more.
BW is just plain hard guys and while the pro games will always be epic, its just to damn hard for the Master league scrubs to play.
It's absolute opposite for me. As someone said how can i be impressed of something that i can do myself?
On September 25 2011 01:21 MattyClutch wrote: You have no idea what is going to come with HOTS and LOTV. Saying you know it won't change anything is silly.
We say it because the core of WoL gameplay is wrong and this core will deliver to expansions obviously.
On September 24 2011 02:47 konadora wrote: I gotta agree with ShadowWolf, some SC2 matches (i'm not really a huge fan, but I do watch from time to time) that I watched have been quite impressive. I think it was MMA or some terran that consistently dropped a zerg all over the map to eventually win that game a couple of months ago. It was kinda exciting (by SC2 standards). But of course, there was the usual lack of main-army micro and a more spread-out longer-lasting battle. But as mentioned some posts back, this is impossible because of how the units are made. And also because smart-cast makes spellcasting so NON-epic.
Jangbi's storms against Nada will forever be the best storms cast in SC/SC2 history.
See thats the point Kona BW fans shouldn't have to lower the bar to 'enjoy' SC2 =S
One game has had years of play development and an expansion and the other has not. It is sort of a given. They don't really have a choice in the matter. 1999 StarCraft wouldn't compare well to current BW either.
We should seriously compile of list of everyone who ever made this ridiculous argument and ignore all of their opinions in any thread that relates to both games. That along with this argument
On September 24 2011 04:27 MattyClutch wrote: You have no idea what is going to come with HOTS and LOTV. Saying you know it won't change anything is silly.
It's irrelevant what will come in the future, what matters is that currently, sc2 is garbage compared to BW. In all aspects. Except for maybe noob friendliness. Just because it might end up as the greatest game of all time 5 years down the road does not change the fact that it's not as good now. Just think about how ridiculous that is. What if a new vehicle (say, a hover craft) came out but wasn't as good as the car.
"Oh, no. Keep using the hovercraft despite it being more expensive and inferior in all aspects. You have no idea, it'll be just as good as the car in like 5 years!" "But.. it's clearly worse right now. I don't see why you're trying to push it so hard." "No, dude. You're so biased. Like, compare the hovercraft to the car when it first came out. The hovercraft is so much better at release, and it can only get better in the future. The car had over a hundred years to develop, you can't expect the hovercraft to compare right now. You're just blinded by nostalgia. Stop living in the past. The car is dead, the hovercraft will replace it." "Whatever, I'm using my car. Tell me when the hovercraft becomes somewhat comparable, then I'll look into getting one"
I could also try to be an elitist troll, but it wouldn't be in any way constructive. As I said earlier in the tread different people enjoy different things. I find SC2 much more enjoyable to watch than SC1, that in itself refutes your point. You and I simply like different things. Also you didn't in any way address my argument. You just dismissed it.
I loved Brood War. I picked it up on a middle school field trip to Washington DC. I couldn't wait to get back and play it. I enjoyed it for years and watched a bit of it. However viewing Brood War was just never all that great for me, the enjoyment was in playing it. I moved on to other games and sometimes came back to play BW, but again I never really watched it (but I also never called it "garbage"). I saw what was there and while I recognized the skill involved it just wasn't for me. SC2 is different for me. I really enjoy watching it, though I do see the obvious skill gap. I do think that will improve with time. People haven't tried everything yet - that will take time. My mistake on hoping future changes and play development would help you enjoy SC2 as well. But troll on good sir.
Artosis saying he wishes everyone would switch to SC2, haha. It's not even complete and far inferior to watch compared to now or 10 years ago, but let's all switch cause Artosis can make a living from casting now.
On September 24 2011 02:47 konadora wrote: I gotta agree with ShadowWolf, some SC2 matches (i'm not really a huge fan, but I do watch from time to time) that I watched have been quite impressive. I think it was MMA or some terran that consistently dropped a zerg all over the map to eventually win that game a couple of months ago. It was kinda exciting (by SC2 standards). But of course, there was the usual lack of main-army micro and a more spread-out longer-lasting battle. But as mentioned some posts back, this is impossible because of how the units are made. And also because smart-cast makes spellcasting so NON-epic.
Jangbi's storms against Nada will forever be the best storms cast in SC/SC2 history.
See thats the point Kona BW fans shouldn't have to lower the bar to 'enjoy' SC2 =S
One game has had years of play development and an expansion and the other has not. It is sort of a given. They don't really have a choice in the matter. 1999 StarCraft wouldn't compare well to current BW either.
We should seriously compile of list of everyone who ever made this ridiculous argument and ignore all of their opinions in any thread that relates to both games. That along with this argument
On September 24 2011 04:27 MattyClutch wrote: You have no idea what is going to come with HOTS and LOTV. Saying you know it won't change anything is silly.
It's irrelevant what will come in the future, what matters is that currently, sc2 is garbage compared to BW. In all aspects. Except for maybe noob friendliness. Just because it might end up as the greatest game of all time 5 years down the road does not change the fact that it's not as good now. Just think about how ridiculous that is. What if a new vehicle (say, a hover craft) came out but wasn't as good as the car.
"Oh, no. Keep using the hovercraft despite it being more expensive and inferior in all aspects. You have no idea, it'll be just as good as the car in like 5 years!" "But.. it's clearly worse right now. I don't see why you're trying to push it so hard." "No, dude. You're so biased. Like, compare the hovercraft to the car when it first came out. The hovercraft is so much better at release, and it can only get better in the future. The car had over a hundred years to develop, you can't expect the hovercraft to compare right now. You're just blinded by nostalgia. Stop living in the past. The car is dead, the hovercraft will replace it." "Whatever, I'm using my car. Tell me when the hovercraft becomes somewhat comparable, then I'll look into getting one"
As I said earlier in the tread different people enjoy different things. I find SC2 much more enjoyable to watch than SC1, that in itself refutes your point. You and I simply like different things. Also you didn't in any way address my argument. You just dismissed it.
I saw what was there and while I recognized the skill involved it just wasn't for me. SC2 is different for me. I really enjoy watching it, though I do see the obvious skill gap. I do think that will improve with time. People haven't tried everything yet - that will take time. My mistake on hoping future changes and play development would help you enjoy SC2 as well.
You're right, the major point of my argument relies on the fact that you agree BW is a "better" game. That goes into a really long argument on what makes a game better so we won't go there. People like different things, I can respect that.
One thing you should keep in mind though, is that the "elitist BW" players are the ones who wanted more than anyone else that sc2 would be amazing. During beta, I literally played sc2 all day, everyday, the whole summer. We're only so bitter because, in our eyes, it did not meet the expectations. And we'd be ok with that too, except that sc2/Blizzard is clearly trying to bully out BW. Just look at Artosis wishing everyone would switch to sc2.
You shouldn't be so scornful of us "elitists". You should pity us. We were promised a new dawn of starcraft and instead, our favorite players are losing their jobs, our favorite tournaments are losing their sponsors, and our favorite game is trying to be erased and replaced. We mostly just want to be left alone :/ TL was our home and now... well, it's hard to be left alone when the people trying to replace you are living with you.
On September 28 2011 17:21 infinity2k9 wrote: Artosis saying he wishes everyone would switch to SC2, haha. It's not even complete and far inferior to watch compared to now or 10 years ago, but let's all switch cause Artosis can make a living from casting now.
I think Artosis' statement was far deeper than that. In SOTG he said players in Broodwar are "so good" and "Starcraft 2 players suck" when he was commentating on the OSL finals. He definitely wants to see how higher ranked A-teamers can solve the game given that MVP has made SC2 Terran very professional and mechanical compared to how everyone cheesed with it.