The reality is that you get what you make of it. BW is a great game that's a lot of fun to watch and SC2 is a great game that's a lot of fun to watch. If you played SC2 and didn't enjoy it then I guess that's too bad. A lot of why the games suck is because the players aren't that good. I imagine that some really good players would totally change the way the game plays because the 1-A deathball style doesn't look very viable against a lot of the new Zerg styles that have been emerging over the last few months.
If you watch the last 2 GSL Code S groups then you'll see several examples of things that would never, ever happen to anyone in a serious BW Tournament and none of the egregious mistakes had to do with the battles being way too fast. It's just players not being good/fast enough to do everything they need to do and also not having the type of practiced builds you see in OSL/MSL - that's for-sure.
But I still think SC2 is great! :-D
[ed]And not to say that amg every SC2 player is TERRIBLE! I guess what I'm saying is that some of it is because there's no SC2 equivalent of BW top level players. There's a lot of players who probably could be there, but they're not. [/ed]
I gotta agree with ShadowWolf, some SC2 matches (i'm not really a huge fan, but I do watch from time to time) that I watched have been quite impressive. I think it was MMA or some terran that consistently dropped a zerg all over the map to eventually win that game a couple of months ago. It was kinda exciting (by SC2 standards). But of course, there was the usual lack of main-army micro and a more spread-out longer-lasting battle. But as mentioned some posts back, this is impossible because of how the units are made. And also because smart-cast makes spellcasting so NON-epic.
Jangbi's storms against Nada will forever be the best storms cast in SC/SC2 history.
On September 24 2011 02:47 konadora wrote: I gotta agree with ShadowWolf, some SC2 matches (i'm not really a huge fan, but I do watch from time to time) that I watched have been quite impressive. I think it was MMA or some terran that consistently dropped a zerg all over the map to eventually win that game a couple of months ago. It was kinda exciting (by SC2 standards). But of course, there was the usual lack of main-army micro and a more spread-out longer-lasting battle. But as mentioned some posts back, this is impossible because of how the units are made. And also because smart-cast makes spellcasting so NON-epic.
Jangbi's storms against Nada will forever be the best storms cast in SC/SC2 history.
See thats the point Kona BW fans shouldn't have to lower the bar to 'enjoy' SC2 =S
On September 24 2011 02:47 konadora wrote: I gotta agree with ShadowWolf, some SC2 matches (i'm not really a huge fan, but I do watch from time to time) that I watched have been quite impressive. I think it was MMA or some terran that consistently dropped a zerg all over the map to eventually win that game a couple of months ago. It was kinda exciting (by SC2 standards). But of course, there was the usual lack of main-army micro and a more spread-out longer-lasting battle. But as mentioned some posts back, this is impossible because of how the units are made. And also because smart-cast makes spellcasting so NON-epic.
Jangbi's storms against Nada will forever be the best storms cast in SC/SC2 history.
See thats the point Kona BW fans shouldn't have to lower the bar to 'enjoy' SC2 =S
One game has had years of play development and an expansion and the other has not. It is sort of a given. They don't really have a choice in the matter. 1999 StarCraft wouldn't compare well to current BW either.
On September 24 2011 02:47 konadora wrote: I gotta agree with ShadowWolf, some SC2 matches (i'm not really a huge fan, but I do watch from time to time) that I watched have been quite impressive. I think it was MMA or some terran that consistently dropped a zerg all over the map to eventually win that game a couple of months ago. It was kinda exciting (by SC2 standards). But of course, there was the usual lack of main-army micro and a more spread-out longer-lasting battle. But as mentioned some posts back, this is impossible because of how the units are made. And also because smart-cast makes spellcasting so NON-epic.
Jangbi's storms against Nada will forever be the best storms cast in SC/SC2 history.
See thats the point Kona BW fans shouldn't have to lower the bar to 'enjoy' SC2 =S
One game has had years of play development and an expansion and the other has not. It is sort of a given. They don't really have a choice in the matter. 1999 StarCraft wouldn't compare well to current BW either.
I never liked that argument because it assumes both games came out under the same gaming environment.
1999 Starcraft -> Took a lot longer for people to start really feeling out the game, becoming a hot shot e-sport, etc (relative to SC2)
2011 SC2 -> Instantly takes off and wipes away BW in terms of viewership. The game is immediately taken up by pros and instantly analyzed, mass-played, and teams form almost immediately.
The context under which both games started out are different. Therefore, there's no point in trying to compare relative success.
The idea is simple: SC2 right now is horribly boring to many, including myself. There are indeed factors of players not doing anything remotely impressive, but there are factors that include the game itself (including clumping up of units) that just look ridiculously lame.
On September 24 2011 02:47 konadora wrote: I gotta agree with ShadowWolf, some SC2 matches (i'm not really a huge fan, but I do watch from time to time) that I watched have been quite impressive. I think it was MMA or some terran that consistently dropped a zerg all over the map to eventually win that game a couple of months ago. It was kinda exciting (by SC2 standards). But of course, there was the usual lack of main-army micro and a more spread-out longer-lasting battle. But as mentioned some posts back, this is impossible because of how the units are made. And also because smart-cast makes spellcasting so NON-epic.
Jangbi's storms against Nada will forever be the best storms cast in SC/SC2 history.
See thats the point Kona BW fans shouldn't have to lower the bar to 'enjoy' SC2 =S
One game has had years of play development and an expansion and the other has not. It is sort of a given. They don't really have a choice in the matter. 1999 StarCraft wouldn't compare well to current BW either.
I never liked that argument because it assumes both games came out under the same gaming environment.
1999 Starcraft -> Took a lot longer for people to start really feeling out the game, becoming a hot shot e-sport, etc (relative to SC2)
2011 SC2 -> Instantly takes off and wipes away BW in terms of viewership. The game is immediately taken up by pros and instantly analyzed, mass-played, and teams form almost immediately.
The context under which both games started out are different. Therefore, there's no point in trying to compare relative success.
The idea is simple: SC2 right now is horribly boring to many, including myself. There are indeed factors of players not doing anything remotely impressive, but there are factors that include the game itself (including clumping up of units) that just look ridiculously lame.
Well I agree that it came out in a totally different environment and we should expect SC2 to progress much faster. However it still takes time for various play styles to evolve and the game is 2 expansions from being complete.
I think SC2 is very enjoyable to play and watch right now. Other people might disagree and they have some valid points, but the fact that it is enjoyable (for me and many others) to watch now is at least a good indicator of things to come.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
well to be fair, there werent many good finals when bw was new either. It wasnt until about 2003 that we started getting some good ones.
So, we need to wait 5 years? And you mean that Boxer/Yellow/Reach prime was not epic? So why do everybody love Emperor, Kong and Mantoss so much?
Boxer was good and he smoked everyone, kinda like nestea. Grrr.... is like Huk , etc.
First of all the finals back then weren't good because the game was being patched so often that people had to totally revise their whole game plan. Which is kind of why sc2 isnt that appealing to me right now (we still have 2 more expansions as well).
Go back and watch some tourney finals from pre 2003 and tell me that their play isnt terrible.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
well to be fair, there werent many good finals when bw was new either. It wasnt until about 2003 that we started getting some good ones.
So, we need to wait 5 years? And you mean that Boxer/Yellow/Reach prime was not epic? So why do everybody love Emperor, Kong and Mantoss so much?
Boxer was good and he smoked everyone, kinda like nestea. Grrr.... is like Huk , etc.
First of all the finals back then weren't good because the game was being patched so often that people had to totally revise their whole game plan. Which is kind of why sc2 isnt that appealing to me right now (we still have 2 more expansions as well).
Go back and watch some tourney finals from pre 2003 and tell me that their play isnt terrible.
If you're willing to forget about your extensive post-2006 bw knowledge a bit, there were some extremely epic games from that era... Far more entertaining to watch than anything I've seen in sc2 at least, and not worse play than that "progame" :
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
well to be fair, there werent many good finals when bw was new either. It wasnt until about 2003 that we started getting some good ones.
So, we need to wait 5 years? And you mean that Boxer/Yellow/Reach prime was not epic? So why do everybody love Emperor, Kong and Mantoss so much?
Boxer was good and he smoked everyone, kinda like nestea. Grrr.... is like Huk , etc.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
well to be fair, there werent many good finals when bw was new either. It wasnt until about 2003 that we started getting some good ones.
So, we need to wait 5 years? And you mean that Boxer/Yellow/Reach prime was not epic? So why do everybody love Emperor, Kong and Mantoss so much?
Boxer was good and he smoked everyone, kinda like nestea. Grrr.... is like Huk , etc.
First of all the finals back then weren't good because the game was being patched so often that people had to totally revise their whole game plan. Which is kind of why sc2 isnt that appealing to me right now (we still have 2 more expansions as well).
Go back and watch some tourney finals from pre 2003 and tell me that their play isnt terrible.
If you're willing to forget about your extensive post-2006 bw knowledge a bit, there were some extremely epic games from that era... Far more entertaining to watch than anything I've seen in sc2 at least, and not worse play than that "progame" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LpPDlHNdJs&feature=player_embedded
Whats wrong with that game? I mean, I know Calm vs Fantasy is an acquired taste but that game wasn't the worst modern tvz I've ever seen.
On September 24 2011 02:47 konadora wrote: I gotta agree with ShadowWolf, some SC2 matches (i'm not really a huge fan, but I do watch from time to time) that I watched have been quite impressive. I think it was MMA or some terran that consistently dropped a zerg all over the map to eventually win that game a couple of months ago. It was kinda exciting (by SC2 standards). But of course, there was the usual lack of main-army micro and a more spread-out longer-lasting battle. But as mentioned some posts back, this is impossible because of how the units are made. And also because smart-cast makes spellcasting so NON-epic.
Jangbi's storms against Nada will forever be the best storms cast in SC/SC2 history.
See thats the point Kona BW fans shouldn't have to lower the bar to 'enjoy' SC2 =S
One game has had years of play development and an expansion and the other has not. It is sort of a given. They don't really have a choice in the matter. 1999 StarCraft wouldn't compare well to current BW either.
Why is this stupid argument repeated so much? Did you even read the thread? There's tons of reasons listed why SC2 is just simply designed that way and it's not going to turn into BW style battles later on. Not only that but people come into SC2 with insane mechanics thanks to the many years of BW, so it's totally irrelevant what 1999 Starcraft was like (it was entertaining anyway back regardless). The 'play development' translates to SC2.
And going by how Blizzard is designing the game the expansion isn't going to add anything we are looking for, they are happy with how it is already it seems. Unfortunately though this is going to be pretty boring to anyone who spectated BW regularly. I appreciate you enjoy it but it's objectively inferior to watch, so so many generic games won by one boring battle.
Also Sayle is better than any SC2 caster i've heard, which was a nice surprise when i first watched his casts. Also he's probably the only one willing to cast for 14+ hours in a row.
On September 24 2011 02:47 konadora wrote: I gotta agree with ShadowWolf, some SC2 matches (i'm not really a huge fan, but I do watch from time to time) that I watched have been quite impressive. I think it was MMA or some terran that consistently dropped a zerg all over the map to eventually win that game a couple of months ago. It was kinda exciting (by SC2 standards). But of course, there was the usual lack of main-army micro and a more spread-out longer-lasting battle. But as mentioned some posts back, this is impossible because of how the units are made. And also because smart-cast makes spellcasting so NON-epic.
Jangbi's storms against Nada will forever be the best storms cast in SC/SC2 history.
See thats the point Kona BW fans shouldn't have to lower the bar to 'enjoy' SC2 =S
One game has had years of play development and an expansion and the other has not. It is sort of a given. They don't really have a choice in the matter. 1999 StarCraft wouldn't compare well to current BW either.
Why is this stupid argument repeated so much? Did you even read the thread? There's tons of reasons listed why SC2 is just simply designed that way and it's not going to turn into BW style battles later on. Not only that but people come into SC2 with insane mechanics thanks to the many years of BW, so it's totally irrelevant what 1999 Starcraft was like (it was entertaining anyway back regardless). The 'play development' translates to SC2.
And going by how Blizzard is designing the game the expansion isn't going to add anything we are looking for, they are happy with how it is already it seems. Unfortunately though this is going to be pretty boring to anyone who spectated BW regularly. I appreciate you enjoy it but it's objectively inferior to watch, so so many generic games won by one boring battle.
Also Sayle is better than any SC2 caster i've heard, which was a nice surprise when i first watched his casts. Also he's probably the only one willing to cast for 14+ hours in a row.
I already addressed this argument earlier in the thread. Did you read it? Sounds like you just have some serious rose tinted goggles on.
You have no idea what is going to come with HOTS and LOTV. Saying you know it won't change anything is silly.
On September 24 2011 02:47 konadora wrote: I gotta agree with ShadowWolf, some SC2 matches (i'm not really a huge fan, but I do watch from time to time) that I watched have been quite impressive. I think it was MMA or some terran that consistently dropped a zerg all over the map to eventually win that game a couple of months ago. It was kinda exciting (by SC2 standards). But of course, there was the usual lack of main-army micro and a more spread-out longer-lasting battle. But as mentioned some posts back, this is impossible because of how the units are made. And also because smart-cast makes spellcasting so NON-epic.
Jangbi's storms against Nada will forever be the best storms cast in SC/SC2 history.
See thats the point Kona BW fans shouldn't have to lower the bar to 'enjoy' SC2 =S
One game has had years of play development and an expansion and the other has not. It is sort of a given. They don't really have a choice in the matter. 1999 StarCraft wouldn't compare well to current BW either.
Why is this stupid argument repeated so much? Did you even read the thread? There's tons of reasons listed why SC2 is just simply designed that way and it's not going to turn into BW style battles later on. Not only that but people come into SC2 with insane mechanics thanks to the many years of BW, so it's totally irrelevant what 1999 Starcraft was like (it was entertaining anyway back regardless). The 'play development' translates to SC2.
And going by how Blizzard is designing the game the expansion isn't going to add anything we are looking for, they are happy with how it is already it seems. Unfortunately though this is going to be pretty boring to anyone who spectated BW regularly. I appreciate you enjoy it but it's objectively inferior to watch, so so many generic games won by one boring battle.
Also Sayle is better than any SC2 caster i've heard, which was a nice surprise when i first watched his casts. Also he's probably the only one willing to cast for 14+ hours in a row.
I already addressed this argument earlier in the thread. Did you read it? Sounds like you just have some serious rose tinted goggles on.
You have no idea what is going to come with HOTS and LOTV. Saying you know it won't change anything is silly.
Indeed, the only way to fix SC2 is with drastic changes in HOTS. There's still a chance but... tbh it's not likely to happen
The best and most exciting sc2 final according to me was the TSL3. Other SC2 finals lacked the hype, tension and excitement.
But 4 of my top 5 sc finals probably belong to BW. Maybe it's because of sc2 tourneys are usually 1-3 day events, except for GSL finals (but GSL finals are... Bad).
On September 24 2011 15:42 XXXSmOke wrote: I think most people are still in love with BW, i mean its just obvious BW games are epic, sc2 games (gsl finals cough cough) just lack.
Heres the problem tho, I along with many people share a similair problem
BW has a ridiclous skill cap compared to SC2
For example
My ICCUP record before sc2 beta 20-50 Rank D (had 4 accounts with a smiliar record best was D+)
My sc2 record end of seas 1 520-470 losses Master League
I love to watch BW but the majority of my time goes to sc2 because i like to watch and learn what im playing.
If I could be as "good" as i am at sc2 at BW I would enjoy BW 1000x more.
BW is just plain hard guys and while the pro games will always be epic, its just to damn hard for the Master league scrubs to play.
you don't have to play the sport to enjoy the sport F1, tennis, GOLF even.
What we simply need is OGN casters and OGN production value, evident by WCG, it is soo much better to watch that then GSL or any SC2 I have seen so far.
EPT
