On September 23 2011 03:26 Haemonculus wrote: edit: And the casters try to over-hype stuff. "NICE STORMS OH MY GOD AMAZING STORMS!"
Really? Because he selected his whole army, and spammed t+click all over the enemy ball, (which is on a-move and makes no attempt to spread out)
"INCREDIBLE EMPS GOING DOWN SO NICE" Really? You just mash e and click everywhere. Same with force fields and fungal etc.
if you're a caster, would you rather speak in monotone, endlessly tell people about how much better bw is and these players are fools and you really have no idea why you're casting such shitty mechanics in the first place?
you're going just a bit too far with the criticism/hate.
The importance of BW's higher skill cap gets way way overstated by some people. SC2 could have twice the mechanical skill cap of BW and still be an inferior spectator experience just on account of being worse at translating that skill into a visual story that can be followed by audiences.
You don't need to know anything about BW's UI limitations or the higher skill involved to find the battle that occurs starting at around 24:00 more engrossing than anything that SC2's Colossus deathballs or penguin marines have ever produced.
It comes down mainly to BW's pathing AI, which causes to armies to spread apart while on the move. This makes battles take place over a larger area and, since unit DPS is less concentrated, over a longer period of time. That BW's equivalent units tend to be more positional and defensive doesn't hurt of course (compare Lurker/Defiler to Baneling/Infestor), but SC2's overly efficient AI is the main culprit I think. And in the case air battles, BW's are so much more back and forth and exciting because of moving shot.
On September 22 2011 05:43 Cruncharoo wrote: Thorzain vs Naniwa final in TSL3 was an unforgettable final
Agree. But I come to think of it that's the only one I remember being good. And I follow ESPORTs.
All I remember from that final is someone killing his own pylon which cancelled his collosus and collusus range upgrade at the same time and I was like "wow what a noobfest." There was nothing really interesting about it other than that it was Team Liquid's own thing. The players themselves were incredibly boring.
Don't want to hype the event that it was, but Thorzain holding off like that didn't give you nerdchills? Naniwa staking it all in a bo1 for 15k with an ALL IN was boring?
Edit: Also Chill lagging didn't gave a memorable moment?
I assume you are talking about game 7 of the TSL3.
No it didn't(it wasn't boring though) because how engagements happened was still just 2 guys 1a-ing each other with giant balls of bio love(or a protoss death ball) and press T and E for win. Not to mention that Naniwa floated 1500 minerals. There was no impressive micro to speak off, only that Thorzain wedged inself into a nice position(which is pre-battle and not in-battle). Moreover, it didn't have multipronged attacks and action all over the map but its more of a I am here you are there and we meet somewhere in the middle with our giant forces. There was no action all over the map, since then there have been much better games in my opinion.
The thing which was nice about the TSL was that it was a community driven event.
What I have found impressive in SC2 so far is only Marine splitting and Storm dodging(I think I saw Puma beat the shit out of Mana with some incredible(it probably wouldn't even matter but still it did happen) storm dodging.
The things I like about SC2 has more to do with the players itself then the game, I am a fan of Boxer and therefore I root for any SlayerS (Terran teehee), aswell as Nada and July and White-Ra(more gg=more skill) and especially Hero, but thats cause he looks slightly like Jaedong.
Also what I miss is the storylines, however that is most likely due to the fact that SC2 hasn't been out that long(and as such storylines are not devolped yet) and on top of that its like, he won X big tournament, ow cool....see you in whatever is literally next week or month.
But yes, the production tabs take away much of the suspense but the thing is what are you going to do about it?Intentionally not use the production tabs?that would be kind of off.
Also, the thing about BW is not that not only is it visually impressive(clarity wise) once you understand how fucking hard it is to actually micro units(which admittedly has to do somewhat with the flawed IU) and macro units at the same time(with no MBS etc) then you understand my fucking god these guys are good. In order to understand why BW is such a good (spectatorship) game you need to understand the game much better, which is actually a problem.
Ow and due to the nature of the game, supply discrepancy's even when you could see them means alot less then in SC2 due to having many units which can turn the tide in favor of you while being very supply efficient for cost(Lurkers, vultures, HTs etc).
This is what I mean. Why do you have to understand the game better, or appreciate the greater skill involved, to find BW's long back and forth battles more exciting than SC2's deathballs annihilating each other in seconds.
To be honest, i try to follow the Brood War scene as much as I possibly can. And don't get me wrong, that i absolutely love it and its really exciting and the production value is amazing, but having no English commentary for like anything really hurts its appeal for me.
I know that for most people it isn't a problem for most people but for a relatively new watcher like me, i need english commentary to FULLY enjoy the game
On September 23 2011 06:18 pStar wrote: To be honest, i try to follow the Brood War scene as much as I possibly can. And don't get me wrong, that i absolutely love it and its really exciting and the production value is amazing, but having no English commentary for like anything really hurts its appeal for me.
I know that for most people it isn't a problem for most people but for a relatively new watcher like me, i need english commentary to FULLY enjoy the game
There's no need to be sorry, in fact I think a high percentage of bw fan began by watching English commentaries. I'd avise you to look at nukethestars channel, and even older VOD such as the bw day9 daylies, klazart and cholera channel, the triple commentaries etc... There are quite a few ressources if you're willing to watch older games, and it will help you to get to know the scene and its history. And if you ask bw people for a game to watch, even with an english commentary, they'll probably answer you with enough VoDs for the coming month^^
On September 23 2011 06:18 pStar wrote: To be honest, i try to follow the Brood War scene as much as I possibly can. And don't get me wrong, that i absolutely love it and its really exciting and the production value is amazing, but having no English commentary for like anything really hurts its appeal for me.
I know that for most people it isn't a problem for most people but for a relatively new watcher like me, i need english commentary to FULLY enjoy the game
It's sort of ironic; I would think that most people who are used to BW would prefer korean commentators because they have much more energy. However, I do think that most people did start watching english commentaries. I would recommend Klazart, Cholera, and Diggity as the poster above me said.
People are just going to take it to the next level. Maybe not within in the next year, but expect 1 by 1 zergling splits and since macro is so "easy" even marine micro -10x on par to automaton 2000. You never know man.
This thread sums it up very nicely and i thank you for that. It seems like another bw vs sc2 thread, but come on...you can't deny that.
I wish and always wished that sc2 can be great and i will be able to watch the games with excitement and nerd chills, but it has not happened yet and i almost lost my hopes. Yes i know the game is still young and expansions and patches are coming. Frankly, this is what everybody was saying for quite a long time now and i tell you what...not a single thing has changed since the release of sc2. I mean, the game is good, sure...but it is still miles away from bw.
The difference is based in the fundamental principles of those two games. MBS, automine, smartcasting. If you add the production tabs and unit balls with no significant micro, you get a perfectly boring game. This will never change, unless you change those basic things. I have played it, i have watched it and it just doesn't give me the satisfaction.
Speaking about TSL3. It was a great commuinty event, wow it was really great event. Well, the games themselves were not that entertaining and if we take TSL1 and TSL2 (the greatest foreign bw events ever), the most of the games were more exciting than the the best games of TSL3.
I think the only succes of SC2 so far is that there is a lot of money pour in it all over the place and so many tournaments that players can compete at, which is paradoxically taking away all the excitement and suspense (the stories). I swear most sc2 progamers would tell you, that they have always ejnoyed bw much more than sc2 if they had to be honest. But who cares maaan...it gives them money and it is their job now. Same goes with the commentators and everyone involved who played bw actively. In conclusion SC2 is good game, but really great business opportunity and the business is kind of overwhelming the enjoyment and satisfaction from the game.
I really hope sc2 will surprise me and things will turn around a bit, that the players will learn to use full map and there will be more ongoing battles over the map while drops in the bases and so on. That's what sc2 has potential for, the multitasking is much easier that a very good player should be able to do miracles in it. I mean it is an easy equation is you take 400 apm from bw, take away manual mining and production and you get much more time spent on battles, which could lead into more of action in total. Unfortunately we don't see that in sc2, we usually see ball vs ball one battle and it really has to be fixed.
This is all due to if you take few units away from your army to harass somewhere or to attack the new forming expansion of your opponent, his ball of units will be suddenly bigger than your ball and he will beat you. This thing was taken care of by units like reavers or defilers in bw. I mean how much bigger army could you defend with 4-5 cannons and two reavers in PvZ, how much bigger army could you take care of with several lurkers and dark swarm in ZvP or ZvT and so on. Then you could use some extra units or even whole armies to be harassing somewhere or taking care of new expansions on the map while you were relatively safe. This is missing in sc2 and that's why there is not much going on at the same time, because if you don't have your army together, you die. There should be better ability to defend with smaller army vs bigger one. It should be easier to defend than to attack and there should more clutch units. That is what made bw what it was in my opinion and what is missing in sc2 completely.
edit: The last thing i would like to add: Take real sport like Soccer, ice hockey or american football. What makes it great to watch is player's skill. You go holy shit, this player is sooooooo good, i can't believe that. You see his skill and what makes him the best. This was taken care of in brood war by the mechanics. It is so hard to control the whole game and that it is the skill you can see and compare. BW is tacticswise like chess and skillwise like the real sport. It took so much practice to became any good in it like the real sports. As someone has said, SC2 is like checkers and it is also missing the "holy shit, this player is soooo good, i can't believe that" factor as bw has. This is the obstacle for sc2 to became the "real (e)sport".
On September 23 2011 08:04 Ponyo wrote: People are just going to take it to the next level. Maybe not within in the next year, but expect 1 by 1 zergling splits and since macro is so "easy" even marine micro -10x on par to automaton 2000. You never know man.
The issue isn't that people will never get there. Just give jaedong a keyboard and he'd do that in his sleep. The issue is that it doesn't even help. For ranged you units you want them clumped, ok so 1a. For melee you want them to surround the enemy. Ok, 1a, done.
On September 23 2011 08:04 Ponyo wrote: People are just going to take it to the next level. Maybe not within in the next year, but expect 1 by 1 zergling splits and since macro is so "easy" even marine micro -10x on par to automaton 2000. You never know man.
Theoretically what 'next level' even is there? Things die too quickly a lot of the time for some micro to be even beneficial. The new units are very limited in possibilities mostly. Something like the Thor, what potential is there? Like a lot of new stuff it's always going to be mostly an attack move unit. Without major changes additions the battles are just not going to be as dynamic.
On September 23 2011 06:18 pStar wrote: To be honest, i try to follow the Brood War scene as much as I possibly can. And don't get me wrong, that i absolutely love it and its really exciting and the production value is amazing, but having no English commentary for like anything really hurts its appeal for me.
I know that for most people it isn't a problem for most people but for a relatively new watcher like me, i need english commentary to FULLY enjoy the game
It's sort of ironic; I would think that most people who are used to BW would prefer korean commentators because they have much more energy. However, I do think that most people did start watching english commentaries. I would recommend Klazart, Cholera, and Diggity as the poster above me said.
NukeTheStars always does the OSL, starting here for the most recent one
Also good ol moletrap also has plety of BW videos on his youtube channel. He still does some BW games from time to time, most recent being the MSL finals between flash and zero!
Yeah.. new SC2 fans are kidding themselves if they don't believe that us BW fans were the most hyped ans excited of ALL people regarding SC2. All of us were pumped as heck (you should see all the prebeta theorycrafting). We wanted to game so bad to be good.
On September 23 2011 00:44 Xenocide_Knight wrote: "dude.. this was.. fun.." "yea...." "..." "Is it just me or were none of those hundreds of games actually that great?" "It's kinda like BW but worse in everyway" "yea, I mean it's not a bad game..." "..." "It'll get better man, it's just beta." "Yea, sc2's going to be so sweet, I'm super pumped for the release"
Wow, that's what i actually think about the game. I just cant feel greatness of my games because there is so small place to have fun. In BW depending on my mood i can rush/cheese/proxy when i feel agressive, i can go standart/ultimate builds when i dont want to think, i can go epic macro when i want to play "war games". In SC2 you only can go rush or standart. Most of fun lies in those epic macro games that almost not exist in SC2 maybe except TvT. Also one of the most fun in BW are comebacks that makes you feel like a superman. In SC2 there's so little room for comebacks and most of games end after first battle. These two "fun" moments of the game Macro Warfare and Comebacks are not exist in SC2 and it makes the games not so great and memorable.
On September 23 2011 06:18 pStar wrote: To be honest, i try to follow the Brood War scene as much as I possibly can. And don't get me wrong, that i absolutely love it and its really exciting and the production value is amazing, but having no English commentary for like anything really hurts its appeal for me.
I know that for most people it isn't a problem for most people but for a relatively new watcher like me, i need english commentary to FULLY enjoy the game
It's opposite for me with SC2. I want to hear that epic korean BW commentary for SC2, not the overhyped English commentaries or Chineese commentaries which are just bad.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
I also see it kind of like the current state of the music industry. There's just so much music nowadays, so many genres and subgenres, so much raw output of new music that it's much harder to appreciate and Savior music in general.
I see what you did there.
On September 23 2011 01:05 konadora wrote: i would give this a million stars over 5 if i could
honestly i do want to see some good SC2 games, but even then, personally, BW is and forever will be the best ESPORTS SPORTS EVER.
I just want to hug you for saying that. <3
What makes BW so good is just an interlocking set of conditions that make it difficult to say any one thing is what makes it so attractive overall.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
well to be fair, there werent many good finals when bw was new either. It wasnt until about 2003 that we started getting some good ones.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
well to be fair, there werent many good finals when bw was new either. It wasnt until about 2003 that we started getting some good ones.
Grrr... vs HOT was pretty good, BoxeR vs YellOw and Boxer vs Garimto were epic. Can't say for MSL finals though. So... yeah.
On September 21 2011 16:27 tree.hugger wrote: Mmmm someone asked me the other day what my favorite starcraft final was, and I said; Flash vs EffOrt, obviously, and they said that they had meant Sc2 final. And that stumped me, because really, I can name a handful of BW series that stick in my mind as ridiculously entertaining, but no Sc2 finals.
well to be fair, there werent many good finals when bw was new either. It wasnt until about 2003 that we started getting some good ones.
So, we need to wait 5 years? And you mean that Boxer/Yellow/Reach prime was not epic? So why do everybody love Emperor, Kong and Mantoss so much?
About English commentaries because they were addressed for a few posts:
I actually like the Korean commentary more. I think that a lot of English commentators don't express as much charisma and even when they do it's either soft, sounds forced even, and among other drawbacks that made me not like it.
On the other hand, how could you not like "PLLAAAGGGGUUUUU, or REEBO REEBO REEBO REEBOOOOO"
I mean, the very fact that Korean commentary is saying something like "OOOOOOHH!H!!H!!!!!!! when a scourge is going near a shuttle" makes it more exciting than just
"BUT LOOK AT THIS THERE'S SCOURGE WILL IT GET IT WILL IT GET IT *silence*"
In my honest opinion, I approve of Sayle's commentary in the foreign BW tournaments we will have over most of the commentaries of SC2 players.
He might not have the analytical abilities, but man he is funny, charismatic, and he brings a personality to his commentary that I can respect and appreciate.
On September 23 2011 20:25 Zergneedsfood wrote: I mean, the very fact that Korean commentary is saying something like "OOOOOOHH!H!!H!!!!!!! when a scourge is going near a shuttle" makes it more exciting than just
The only foreign commentator who does it is Tasteless but of course he cant to this:
On September 23 2011 20:25 Zergneedsfood wrote: On the other hand, how could you not like "PLLAAAGGGGUUUUU, or REEBO REEBO REEBO REEBOOOOO"
On September 23 2011 20:25 Zergneedsfood wrote: About English commentaries because they were addressed for a few posts:
I actually like the Korean commentary more. I think that a lot of English commentators don't express as much charisma and even when they do it's either soft, sounds forced even, and among other drawbacks that made me not like it.
On the other hand, how could you not like "PLLAAAGGGGUUUUU, or REEBO REEBO REEBO REEBOOOOO"
I mean, the very fact that Korean commentary is saying something like "OOOOOOHH!H!!H!!!!!!! when a scourge is going near a shuttle" makes it more exciting than just
"BUT LOOK AT THIS THERE'S SCOURGE WILL IT GET IT WILL IT GET IT *silence*"
In my honest opinion, I approve of Sayle's commentary in the foreign BW tournaments we will have over most of the commentaries of SC2 players.
He might not have the analytical abilities, but man he is funny, charismatic, and he brings a personality to his commentary that I can respect and appreciate.
And he brings the "Se-kou-chi" over authentically. Or not, but I don't care.
EPT
