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Tastosis Casting and Misanalysis - Page 9

Blogs > Kraznaya
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ZaloMonkada
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States86 Posts
August 11 2011 15:28 GMT
#161
On August 11 2011 22:00 Honeybadger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2011 21:51 Kraznaya wrote:
This is pretty hilarious because

1) I belong to the USC Esports CSL Team and Club, and hang out weekly with them, joking about shit like how retarded casters are sometimes.
2) I was a masters Terran Seasons 1 and 2, and I did exactly as you suggested this season by dropping all the way to silver and winning games doing stupid shit like mass sentries to troll noobs.


IIRC, the CSL is still Brood war, is it not? or did they upgrade into SCII?

"trolling noobs" is a bad argument for you. You're really just drawing back in on the antisocial nature of your post that you're now being called out to defend. I'd wager a guess that you're particularly BM in your games, as well.



Show nested quote +
3) You're here ranting about my criticisms of a public figure, something that everyone takes part in from time to time, while you obtain to try to do some retarded amateur psychoanalysis on me. I mean, who does that? Sounds like you're the weirdo with too much time on his hands trying to psychoanalyze random people on the Internet you disagree with.


Keep talking, broceratops. All you're doing is just driving home my very standard psychoanalysis with defensive explanations. Did I mention that I'm in medical school? Psych profiles are part of my job. And you are fitting a very distinct mold more closely with every sentence you spit out.



Show nested quote +
Oh boo hoo, my post had hostile language! Who could've expected such when it was a critical post? Tastosis have thousands of people to shower them with praise and tell them what they're doing right. They need people to be honest with them and tell them what they're doing wrong.


Even more angry nerd language. Hostile language is different from insulting a person in a way that you have no insight on, no basis for even stating (have you SEEN him go out and party? I'd wager not.)

I never even said you should tell them what they're doing right. I said, very clearly, that you should tell them what they're doing wrong, how they can fix it, and why you think so (you don't even need to include the how to fix comment, though the harsher your language, the more necessary it is for not appearing like a retarded troll.) Calling someone a drunkard when it has no relevance to anything mentioned or inferred in starcraft is just fucked up. If you said my progamer friends were bad because they were drunkards who partied on their off days, I be sorely tempted to slap you.

It's called Tact. learn it, it's kind of important in life.


What the heck man, it seems like you're just attacking the poster at this point o.o I thought he had valid points, even though he didnt have tact. You dont have to be polite to make a valid point (ex: idra)
Sotamursu
Profile Joined June 2010
Finland612 Posts
August 11 2011 15:52 GMT
#162
Sure Tastosis sometimes makes mistakes, but as others have pointed out, they usually correct them afterwards. Mostly I like how they work so well together and are really good at filling moments where nothing happens with off-topic conversations and remarks. They're also just generally pleasing to listen to, compared to some other people that I won't mention.

Even though Artosis isn't perfect at analyzing everything, he's still pretty good and most of the time manages to recognize builds and tell us about them. I didn't follow BW much so I don't know how good Tasteless was before, but I still think they bring the best out of each other even though Tasteless might not do as much work.

As for Sigmund Freud here, for someone who's essentially pulling out the 'get a life' -card and telling someone to stop being so serious, you're taking some random guys opinion on the internet pretty seriously.
Kukaracha
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
France1954 Posts
August 11 2011 16:05 GMT
#163
One thing: not being on par with the casted pro players in terms of game skills is not an issue.

I mean, do you see NBA casters go 1 on 1 with Kobe Bryant?
Do you see soccer casters fight in the middle with Messi?

No.
Le long pour l'un pour l'autre est court (le mot-à-mot du mot "amour").
me_viet
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia1350 Posts
August 11 2011 16:14 GMT
#164
Aren't Tastosis the highest level commentator around these days? You'll be hard pressed to find people better casters than them, unless they're pro players themselves.

And OP, you can't just say with no proof, that 'ppls just blindly hang on to their words blah blah". I'm sure people can think for themselves, and I doubt it's the majority that falls into that category. Everyone knows Tasteless is the play-by-play commentator and Artosis knowledge is top notch for a commentator. Why is being biased so bad? It adds some flavour to the comentary. Every other sport out there has their own fair shares of biased commentator. Why does it matter that they have people who 'hangs on to their every words'? Let those people enjoy their favorite casters. If you don't like it, mute them.

I can't imagine how long it took you to write the essay in the OP, but what do you hope to achieve from writing that? If you were just venting, then this should be in blogs. If you have criticism about their casting, than email them list of suggestions/improvements you would like. Posting here will just spark a 'blind fanyboys vs haters' debate and achieve nothing. ARtosis/Tasteless already said they don't read TL thread anymore.

Posting this just makes you seem like a nitpicky basement-dweller with too much time on their hands and wants validation from the interwebz. Like I said, if you have a problem, take it up with them yourself instead of trying to incite a riot.
Keldory
Profile Joined December 2010
United States65 Posts
August 11 2011 16:46 GMT
#165
Hipster nerds have begun hating on Tastosis. What has the world come to. Pretty soon OnGameNet and Bisu will be killing ESPORTS.
"LAMO"
psychopat
Profile Joined October 2009
Canada417 Posts
August 11 2011 18:52 GMT
#166
The part that amazes me in this thread is how readily this community bashes itself. Disparaging someone for putting too much time into discussing a key aspect of SC2 (such as casters) on a SC/SC2 forum is kind of ridiculous.

I personally don't think Tastosis is the best caster pair but they're passable. Even if they were unquestionably the best duo to ever emerge in all of time past, present and future, there's always room for improvement. While not all of it is constructive, there were a couple worthwhile nuggets in the OP.
TOCHMY
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Sweden1692 Posts
August 11 2011 19:26 GMT
#167
brothers, unite? For esports? plz? so much hate everywhere
Yoona <3 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Look! It's Totoro! ☉.☉☂
flowSthead
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1065 Posts
August 11 2011 19:30 GMT
#168
On August 11 2011 22:24 Kraznaya wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2011 22:09 UTL_Unlimited wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 11 2011 20:46 Kraznaya wrote:
WARNING: THIS IS PRETTY FUCKING LONG AND KIND OF RANTY

Okay, after having my ears nearly bleed out listening to Tastosis attempt to GSL Group D on August 9th, I felt compelled to write up addressing a lot of problems I have with Tastosis casting. I’m doing this because Tastosis is a highly regarded brand name amongst foreigners, and their attempts at analysis often accepted without question by the community, despite the fact their casting is riddled with bias and errors. I understand that there are a lot of fans amongst the community who love Tastosis, not in the least because they provide “entertaining commentary” (which is subjective, so I won’t dwell upon that too much), and will dismiss this criticism out of hand. After all, Tastosis is theoretically good for ESPORTS, and hating on them is just uncool, or something. However, I feel as if blind acceptance of Tastosis casting, especially as flawed as it is, is a detriment to both the development of their improvement as casters and good analytical English casting as a whole, and so feel the need to detail the issues with their analysis.

First, I’ll address the much less important member of the pair, Tasteless. In some ways, I view Tasteless as the “custodian” of the cast, as he takes care of a lot of the menial tasks such as player introductions, play by play, and joking around about random things like critters (which I personally find grating, but a lot of people find this amusing, so more power to them and him), while Artosis attempts to do the real meaty analysis.

Tasteless doesn’t offer much at all in the way of analysis, and when he does he’s often reduced to echoing Artosis’s statements or pointing out obvious blunders by players. Tasteless’s casting is most annoying to me when he attempts to unfairly criticize what he perceives as poor play, despite the fact that his lacking skill at SC2 play and analysis put him in no position to do so. The most salient example of this, which keeps happening over and over again throughout their casts ever since MMA’s dropship style became popularized at MLG Columbus, is his constant criticism of Terran usage of medivac octodrops against Zerg after Mutalisks have popped (“I’m not sure he should be doing this, this doesn’t look like it will work…”). He has a very simplistic view with regards to the goal of the drop: to cause materiel damage to the Zerg, whether in form tech buildings, drones, hatcheries, etc. However, this is not the only way medivac drops can improve a Terran’s position in a game against Zerg. For example, if a medivac was at the other side of a map and was picked off by Zerg’s mutas attempting to harass a far flung expansion, BUT the Terran managed to move his main marine-tank army to a forward position against the Zerg and siege up, the Terran has in fact used his medivacs to great effect. It is much easier to tank push against a Zerg when you are doing multipronged harass to divert units, but Tasteless doesn’t realize this, because that requires strategic depth and thinking which he isn’t applying to the game. This is personally aggravating to me because in essence, Tasteless is criticizing players who are far better than him for doing a tactical maneuver that he doesn’t understand, and a wide swathe of the audience viewing back home willingly takes his words at face value. Talk about a step backward for helping the SC2 community understand the game.

Personally, Tasteless as a caster reminds me a lot of Fruitdealer the SC2 player. Both are highly regarded for being basically the founding member of their respective profession (Tasteless the English Starcraft caster, Fruitdealer the SC2 champion), but time has worn them down and they seem a lot less inspired in doing their jobs than they did a long time ago. In particular, Tasteless had a much better head for BW analysis than he does for SC2, and he did it at a higher level, and his most salient points in his SC2 casts are often back analogies to BW. What does that tell me? That Tasteless isn’t really putting his heart and soul into wrapping his head around the ever evolving SC2 scene, and he’s coasting on prior reputation and experience to keep his seat warm. Throw in the rumors of constant drinking and partying in Seoul (and the obvious parallel here again), and I’d argue that Tasteless has been as disrespectful to his job as Fruitdealer has been to his (minus the blatant lying to sc2con, of course). I hope Tasteless either bucks up and starts taking his job seriously and quit to make room for a caster who actually has real respect for the SC2 scene (Wolf comes to mind).

With all that said, most of my issues with regards to Tastosis have to do with Artosis. Although probably the lesser half of the archon by reputation at the inception of GSL, Artosis has clearly superseded Tasteless in importance, due to both Tasteless’s lackadaisical attitude as detailed above, and his own dedication to attempting to provide strategic analysis. Adding that to the fact that Tasteless basically parrots Artosis’s opinion as much as possible, and it’s clear that any deep rooted issues with the cast begin and end with Artosis. While Artosis’s attempts to provide analysis are commendable, there are a gamut of issues involved.

If you have any idea at all how SC2 works, it doesn’t take any effort at all to figure out which player Artosis is rooting for when you listen to him cast a game. He always has a rooting interest, and he will relentlessly note the “brilliance” of his anointed player while harping on his “uncertainty” about the choices of his disfavored side. This was plaintively obvious in Group D, when Artosis’s totem pole of preferred players ran something to the tune of Alicia = Nada > Coca > Keen. At the inception of Keen’s first game, Artosis immediately labeled Keen as the “by far the weakest player in the group.” Now, not only is that an erroneous statement (I’ll get to Artosis’s fast eroding knowledge of the Korean scene in general later, especially with regards to players who have not been in Code S long term), but Keen just beat Coca in Code A in Code A July and did an epic ceremony to back it up to boot. Artosis continued on to criticize Keen’s strategic choices, which consisted of hellion harassment off 2 base into a marine tank timing push designed to kill Coca’s third. Now, Artosis’s criticisms may have had some validity if they were playing on a Terran favored map, but they were playing on Bel Shir Beach, home of the 30% TvZ winrate, the bane of Jinro, and a map where it is nearly impossible for Terran to secure a third against Zerg, not to mention a fourth. Keen rolled the dice on a 2 base timing because he basically had no other choice, and played a hard fought game in which he ultimately lost. Interestingly, while Tasteless had a somewhat higher opinion of Keen prior to the game, praising him at the inception as a “scrappy player,” he was soon echoing Artosis’s sentiments and nitpicking every flaw in Keen’s play, presumably due to his lack of ability to win a TvZ on Zerg Shir Beach.

Before discussing Artosis’s mangling of analyzing Keen’s next game against Alicia, we first must contrast it by looking at a game with two players that Artosis respects, Nada vs Alicia. Alicia is well known for being one of Artosis’s pets, but Nada is a BW Legend, the Genius Terran (NOT the Renaissance Terran, for the love of all that is good and holy), and commands respect. Nada did a twist on the infamous TvP 1/1/1 all in, disguising his build as a marauder expand before switching add ons to arrive at the essential components for marine, tank, and banshee production. This was a creative build by Nada, but not anything that hasn’t been attempted before (for more disguised 1/1/1 all in builds, see MKP’s final against Sase at CPL China, where he opened marine octodrop + 3 hellion runby and fake 2 rax -> reactor cancel into 1/1/1 builds).

Nevertheless, Artosis continually praised Nada on the genius of his build, holding it as an example of good creative play. This actually isn’t a problem for Artosis when viewed in and of itself, but when you contrast how he analyzes this build to a disguised build by a player he dislikes, the bias is clear.

In the loser’s match between Keen and Alicia, Keen opened with a very unusual build after having scouted Alicia on close air positions Metalopolis and seeing Alicia take 2 gas. Having opened with the standard build for a 1 rax gasless FE, Keen opted to lay down 2 more rax for a total of 3 rax no gas upon completion of his orbital. Having seen this, Artosis immediately pounced on Keen and labeled him as a “sneaky player” trying to “sneak” his way past a “much better” player in Alicia by attempting an all in. Even after Keen followed up by planting a CC (thus making it a 3 naked rax expand), Artosis continued to label his build an all in and wondered why Keen didn’t bring all his scvs when he poked with his group of marines.

3 naked rax into an expand is clearly not an all in. In order to do a marine scv all in, you need to either bitbybit with your first 2 rax and hit immediately, or go up to 5 or 6 rax like TLO famously did against Idra. In terms of similar builds, it is closest to a 2 rax pressure into expand (zatic build, used very often by Polt in the GSL Super Tournament), or the 3 gate into expand that Protosses do. In fact, 3 naked rax is in effect the exact same amount of production structures as a standard Terran 2 rax (1 reactor and 1 tech lab). The build is designed to poke and pressure your opponent, denying an expansion with bunkers if he attempts to greedily expand too early, while remaining safe against all forms of pressure so that you yourself can take an expansion.

Why did Keen opt for this unusual 3 naked rax into expansion? Because he made a calculated read based on his scouting, opponent, and map. The game was played on Metalopolis close air positions, spots ideal for void ray play, a strong build against 1 rax gasless FE. Alicia is well known for void ray all ins (see his game against MKP in GSL July’s Code S group stage), and Keen scouted that Alicia had gone for two gas. In that position, it was a good read by Keen to expect a 3 gate void ray all in, against which he would have been miles ahead with his multitude of marines and ready expansion. However, upon seeing the fact that he was not harassed by void rays, Keen smartly used the ability of his build to pressure fast expansions to deny Alicia’s expansion. The fact that he was able to get up the ramp and kill a few sentries and probes was just gravy, and the build would have succeeded in denying Alicia’s expansion even if that had not happened. Keen continued to show savvy reactive play when he immediately threw down an engineering bay upon seeing Alicia’s low sentry count despite the quick two gas and lack of void rays, and killed all of Alicia’s DTs and wiped the floor with him for the rest of the (short) game.

Obviously, mistakes happen during casting. In fact, while watching the game, I initially assumed the same as Artosis when I saw Keen lay down 2 raxes after his orbital finished. However, when Keen did not lay down additional raxes and continued to bank up money, it was obvious that that was a gun ho assessment and he was planning somewhat different. However, Artosis never changed his diagnosis of the situation, continuing to label Keen’s build an “all-in” long after it clearly wasn’t, and only backtracked after Keen’s initial marine poke by justifying his analysis and saying he was “transitioning out of an all in.” Given that Artosis often has very tight strategic reads on positions, particularly in games with players he likes, such as Nada vs Alicia, I feel like his misanalysis was colored by his biases against Keen and toward Alicia, and his preconceived notions of Keen as a player, something that’s backed up by the rather unequal vocabulary that he uses to describe the two. Thus, with Artosis, the root of his misanalysis while casting generally comes from his biases. His biases, in turn, are often a product of his ignorance about players, especially new players just beginning to make a splash on the scene.

And that’s the last fault of Tastosis. They no longer have any finger on the pulse of the Korean SC2 scene, on what is going on the Korean ladder and who’s making a name for himself in Code A, GSTL, or even Korean Iccup Weeklys. Back in the Open Seasons, this was much more excusable, given the less structured nature of the scene and lesser expectations for good reporting. Now, though, we have people like Wolf (note: yes, Wolf has his own biases and misanalyses, but that’s another story for another day) giving us inside info on the inner workings of FXO-fOu, and all their practice partners and ladder opponents (which cover the entire scene). Coupled with the rather astounding lack of knowledge that Tastosis have of what’s going on in tournaments below Code S (I’m pretty certain that I watch more Korean SC2 games than they do at this point, and that’s part of their job), and you have casters with flawed impressions of what’s actually going on in the scene. This puts a hamper on their analysis, and makes their impressions of the metagame feel very dated as a result. Add that to the fact that Artosis tends to do a much better analyzing players who he knows and isn’t biased against, and you have a real cause for improvement in their casting.

This isn’t to say Artosis hasn’t improved at all since GSL’s inception. In fact, his biases used to be much more blatant, and I often had to mute the cast whenever a zerg was playing due to ridiculously one sided nature of his casts. However, Artosis showed commendable dedication toward improving his casting by switching to Protoss so he could have a less biased perspective on the metagame. I hope that he takes these criticisms about bias and lack of metagame knowledge hampering his analysis with the same amount of heart.

Inb4 tl;dr, YOU’RE RUINING ESPORTS, etc.


First, I'd state that you are of course entitled to your own opinions and your arguments holds validity to the extent that you are showing your opinions via your observations. However, I would argue that certain parts of your claims are somewhat misleading to the readers.

Let's start with the first point regarding Tasteless: you yourself highlight the fact that Tasteless is a "custodian" role, a.k.a. the play-by-play guy. With this point now highlighted, let's look at your arguments:
In terms of the "parroting Artosis" or "pointing out blatantly obvious mistakes", he is, once again, a play-by-play caster. His role is to simply show what is going on. This casting part is integral. Even though you or I, a hardcore member of the community, may not need it, overall his play-by-play style needs to exist just as much as Artosis' role as an analyst. Football, soccer, Starcraft BW, majority of the 'casting duo' usually stays in this casting duo style.

Tasteless, in your point regarding MLG Columbus and MMA's dropship playstyle, he mentioned the points where he makes because he himself is a player and he has played the game to the extent of the metagame. Do you honestly believe that Tasteless, a Starcraft BW professional player, does not know the importance of drops? Why the drops are done? Drops were even more important and fragile back in Brood War in T v Z because they were scourges literally flying everywhere 1.5 times faster than the dropships, killing them whenever possible.
To the regular viewers, they simply see drops as 'damage must be done to be paid off', so Tasteless, in my opinion, tones down his play-by-play casting to the level of the viewer.

Let's make more direct comparisons to that of Starcraft BW since they are both E-sport games that are broadcasted fairly well.

Starcraft BW in Korea consist of 3 commentators: 1 play-by-play and 2 analysts. This style is used, but the Korean majority never criticize the 'play-by-play' commentator. Why? Because he does what he needs to do in his job description: mention what is happening. Why should he analyze? And let's say he does analyze: then he is simply hurting the 'flow' of the casting trio, and thus should actually try to avoid analyzing if possible.

*Your argument of the point of "Tasteless is criticizing players who are far better than him for doing a tactical maneuver that he doesn’t understand, and a wide swathe of the audience viewing back home willingly takes his words at face value. Talk about a step backward for helping the SC2 community understand the game." makes me want to point out that you yourself are doing the same thing. Please post your credentials and show that you are much better than Tasteless before you criticize him. You stating is saying that we the viewers should also not criticize players whenever we post on the LR Forums. Of course, the refutation might be, "oh but it's on live", well the internet is read daily and I'm certain that there are many who do read through the Live reports, so then in that case, we as well should never criticize or mention our opinions in the same sense.

*Then your analysis of Tasteless not having the same 'passion' for Starcraft 2. Perhaps this is true, perhaps this is not. We will never know until Tasteless himself informs us. But what we do know is that he is passionate about casting, he is passionate about E-sports, and he is simply not just 'cruising' through the fame that he has carried in the past just as Fruitdealer is. How do we know this? Because he still tries his best to fit his role as a play-by-play caster.

Another point that we should look at: "Artosis has clearly superseded Tasteless in importance, due to both Tasteless’s lackadaisical attitude as detailed above, and his own dedication to attempting to provide strategic analysis."

*To you, as a hardcore member of the community, may argue this that Artosis "clearly superseded" Tasteless. Why? Because we, as hardcore members of the community, simply want analysis to learn and get better at the game. But I would once again argue that Artosis is doing his job as an analyst and that Tasteless is doing his job as a play-by-play commentator. So in no way has Artosis "clearly supersede" Tasteless in any sense. They are both just doing their roles. Tasteless "parroting Artosis" is, a point to you, maybe a mistake that Tasteless occasionally does as this goes a little above that of his role, but I could also make a counterargument that he dumbs down Artosis' analysis to simpler ways and repetition of certain things never hurts to help increase the viewers' knowledge. It may annoy some people, but it will never hurt the learning, which is what Artosis' role is for.

Now let's look at your points regarding Artosis.
I will once again give a point to your argument: Artosis is clearly passionate and very biased in his casts. The most infamous example is that of Nestea vs SCFou game 5 where he was literally screaming his head off for the older veteran to win.
But let's look at your criticisms. First your mention of the Keen vs Coca game. Do you know why Keen is currently at the fame that he is? It is because of his ceremonies. He plays occasionally brilliant games and his attitude is certainly entertaining to watch, but really? Keen is not the underdog of this group? He does not have as much credentials as the rest. Coca has shown recent strong performances in the GSL Super Tourney and to Keen's credit, he has also done well in the Code A's, but it is hard to see from an objective point of view as Keen not being an underdog. Alicia has shown strong games in Code A, and NaDa is once again, just as in Starcraft 1, the most consistent player around. So, once again, hard to not see Keen as an underdog compared to the rest.
Perhaps not the best wording from Artosis for calling Keen a "scrub" or a "sneaky player" but he is kind of a human being... I guess he should always think about 30 seconds before saying something just like how we make posts on forums right?
Of course, this might be a case if Artosis did it every time, but for the most part, Artosis criticizes with evidence behind his harsh criticisms. TheBest? Uhh Banshee control was slightly sad to watch? BitbyBit? Please don't start on this point. There's plenty of evidence of Artosis being too harsh, but for the most part, at least he has evidence behind it.

*Then the next part of the 3 naked rax is not an all-in. Korean servers are infamous for doing this and it being an all-in. It's hard to not see this build in a server where aggression is famous for and it's a best of 1 and not first think, of it's an all-in. At the situations where Artosis found himself in, and from his previous games he casted and his experience on the Korean Ladder, in my opinion, Artosis certainly had enough justification to call it an all-in at the time he did. So to simply assume this as lack of understanding of the game is kind of iffy. And he would mention that he 'transitioned out of the all-in' and at that point, it was true. From a look at it, it was an all-in. Artosis mentioned that Keen was even on SCVs to that of Alicia's. What does that reveal? He used his economy for an army, and spent no time on SCVs. That shows an 'all-in'.

Another fact to note is that Artosis sees something different from us the viewers. He can see what the players click, where they are looking at, and what units they are producing etc. That's why he has mentioned that Clide was the best player in the world: He was playing like the current BW players back a few seasons ago and had the mechanics just like that of BW Players. So I would argue back that it's not Artosis' bias, but rather his observations that are different from that of the viewers that has him mentioning these views.

So while there are certainly big issues with biased commentary, but at least Artosis can justfiy his bias and can, in his analysis, actually analyze.

Your final point regarding them being 'out of loop of the Korean scene'. I'd once again give a point to you: they both have been busy for quite some time casting IPLs, GSLs, MLGs, etc. Yet I would once again make a counterargument that their constant tournament castings and their dedication to their job (perhaps not the game) allows them to learn and give good commentary. They at least admit when they don't know a build rather than say that they know what's going on. I guess I'm just confused that you aren't jumping on this point about Tastosis if your final argument is that they seem so out of loop in terms of their metagame understanding.

Final note: please don't use ad hominem arguments...I mean really? Tasteless going out partying is hurting his job? He has done casting for quite some time even before GSL, so I highly doubt that he suddenly thought he could party and give up his job out of nowhere.

tl;dr: Chill out, they're doing fine. Besides your arguments are very nitpicky.


UTL, thank you for your post. It's rare that I can agree to disagree with people on the Internet, but you bring up a lot of legitimate counterpoints to the discussion which I can respect.

Regarding Tasteless: Yes, he is the play by play caster and the "jokes person" on the cast. I have no problem with this. In fact, that's everything I want him to be. My wording on these tasks may have been a little harsh in the post ("menial tasks," etc.), but I have no problem with Tasteless fulfilling these duties if he doesn't want to steep himself into analysis. The problems with Tasteless are twofold: he sometimes attempts to do analysis, and when he does, he does it badly, and his excitement and enthusiasm for the game often seems forced or misplaced. If Tasteless didn't attempt to do analysis, he wouldn't be making the egregious mistakes that open himself to criticism. If Tasteless is truly attempting to "dumb down the game" for newbies, then he shouldn't be blatantly incorrect comments! He should instead be offering relevant advice that is useful (Nestea is producing a lot of drones to achieve full saturation of his mineral lines, that will really help his economy, etc.). Instead, he's trying to call player tactics bad because of his lack of understanding of the SC2 metagame.

Also, my comment on Artosis passing Tasteless was based on TL forum regard for each over the course of the last year.

Regarding Artosis: You know, it's funny... but TheBest is probably a much better player than Artosis gives him credit for. TheBest has eliminated MKP from ICCup Korean weeklies, and is in the top 5 of the FXO-fou house rankings. Yet... Artosis gives viewers the impression that TheBest is a player, mostly because he literally only has three games in the Ro8 of the Super Tournament against MKP to judge him on. In fact, TheBest is a pretty good example of what's wrong with Artosis's analysis, not what's right: he has a distorted view of the Korean scene because he only sees what goes on in the games he casts in Code S.

Also, it's pretty strange that you're claiming that there's an all in that exists on the Korean server of 3 naked rax with scv pull against Protoss. I've never heard of or seen this before. Marine scv all ins against Protoss consist of at least 5 raxes.




I have one question to ask about the mistakes that Artosis and Tasteless make. Are you sure this isn't a case of confirmation bias on your part?

See, I actually agree with the notion that Artosis can be biased at times (fairly often depending on the match), but I disagree on the amount of mistakes that you think they make. This just seems like a situation where the mistakes the casters make are always going to be more obvious then the times that they are right. Caster A says X will happen. Y happens, and you go "that is not X", so it becomes more memorable. Compare that with Caster A says X will happen and X happens. Most people don't think "ooh he was right", they just move on to the next part of the cast.

Another thing I notice is for example the fact that Artosis is constantly talking about how he tries to watch all the VODs he can to stay up to date with both the pro players and the current builds being used. I've also hear him mention on State of the Game a number of times how a certain build is being used by X race on the Korean server, something that in North America isn't being used. Either you haven't heard Artosis say these things, you have forgotten, or you saying that he actually doesn't play enough ladder to know these builds and doesn't watch that many VODs, i.e. calling him a liar.

I ask about your confirmation bias because I started focusing on Tasteless's casting because a lot of people call him a play-by-play guy so often, but I started noticing that he does a fair bit of analysis, and he often does it well and gets it right. It isn't memorable, because mistakes are more memorable and Tasteless usually says things in a matter of fact voice, whereas Artosis comments on a build usually have more flare. Tasteless reserves his flare for PandaBearGuy it seems (I don't know why). I think a lot of people underestimate Tasteless's knowledge of the game. The other day for a Gorup A or Group B game Tasteless called out a build in I think a TvT and he called it out pretty well.

I would also point out that during the MMA/Nestea match, there was definitely bias for Nestea during that from Artosis, and even Tasteless, but by the end of the match they gave respect to MMA for tearing apart Nestea with his drops.

All of your argument seems to have been from group D, which I haven't watched, but it seems to me you are taking one day of casting and make generalizations about their state of casting. It is just too convenient. The fact that you used to mute Artosis for being biased says to me that you are looking for criticism in places where it perhaps does not exist, and you perhaps avoid the positive points when you see them, i.e. confirmation bias.

Just my perspective.
"You can be creative but I will crush it under the iron fist of my conservative play." - Liquid`Tyler █ MVP ■ MC ■ Boxer ■ Grubby █
insearchof
Profile Joined July 2011
United States57 Posts
August 12 2011 04:50 GMT
#169
only the best casters to ever do it. i mean look how terrible wolf and moletrap are. specifially Mr.KNOW IT ALL wolf.. sooooo annoying. artosis gives pro insight while tasteless is amazing and hilarious and the two of them together are the best... i consider your long post a troll even though it took you decent time to put it together
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
Redmark
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada2129 Posts
August 12 2011 05:09 GMT
#170
I don't play this game and to be completely honest, I have no idea whether any given non-pro caster knows what he's talking about and I don't really trust the community opinion on it.
Not so long ago Tastosis was considered the pinnacle of analysis but now half the thread says that's not the point, they're entertainment casters? And another half says no that's not right they do have good analysis?
Stuff like this is why I just go "fuck it, watching Totalbiscuit suck at SC2".
LlamaNamedOsama
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1900 Posts
August 12 2011 06:14 GMT
#171
On August 12 2011 14:09 Redmark wrote:
I don't play this game and to be completely honest, I have no idea whether any given non-pro caster knows what he's talking about and I don't really trust the community opinion on it.
Not so long ago Tastosis was considered the pinnacle of analysis but now half the thread says that's not the point, they're entertainment casters? And another half says no that's not right they do have good analysis?
Stuff like this is why I just go "fuck it, watching Totalbiscuit suck at SC2".


People are self-professed gods and superior enlightened beings regarding the higher workings of SC2.

In other words, they're viewing the game from their perspective and understanding as a player, and venomously hating casters that make comments that don't align perfectly with those preset views. This just implies a failure of players to understand both the fact that they are watching the games through a certain lens, and that casters are casting through a certain lens. Every person will have different natural and instinctual thoughts when they watch based off the distinct individual experiences they have had. Much of the time, some common things will end up being agreeable between you and the caster.

Another part, of course, is that some casters may give "better" performances one game or another. Sometimes, HD is a very good caster in my eyes, but I do see times where he makes cringe-worthy comments. Even the best can be prone to it. Of course, lots of people have trouble with accepting the variable nature of those performances, insisting "oh this caster ALWAYS does bad x, y, z," when in reality, that may be the case that the caster made such screwups a number more than not in recent games.

As always, I'm confused why people don't listen to the advice that admins of TL have to almost ALWAYS put in the white boxes for LR threads of tournaments: to just be positive and enjoy the games.
Dario Wünsch: I guess...Creator...met his maker *sunglasses*
blabber
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States4448 Posts
August 12 2011 07:30 GMT
#172
On August 12 2011 01:14 me_viet wrote:
Aren't Tastosis the highest level commentator around these days? You'll be hard pressed to find people better casters than them, unless they're pro players themselves.

They are the best commentating duo right now. They're pretty mediocre though. It's just that everyone else is so bad in comparison.
blabberrrrr
Dfgj
Profile Joined May 2008
Singapore5922 Posts
August 12 2011 07:37 GMT
#173
It's not common that you have someone who has the time and ability to play SC2 at a high level, have good enough character and speaking skills to cast well, and maintain in-depth knowledge about the scene, kept up to date for long periods of time.

Tastosis is the best we have, but SC2 is full of commentators sorely lacking in one or many of the above which make their flaws seem minor. It's not a huge surprise - pretty much all the high-profile casters are ascended amateurs and thus aren't going to be, in the end, totally comparable to professional sportscasters.

I still enjoy Tastosis games whenever they come on.
Honeybadger
Profile Joined August 2010
United States821 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 08:30:39
August 12 2011 08:27 GMT
#174
On August 12 2011 00:28 ZaloMonkada wrote:

What the heck man, it seems like you're just attacking the poster at this point o.o I thought he had valid points, even though he didnt have tact. You dont have to be polite to make a valid point (ex: idra)


The only way to stop these BM morons is to ostracize them. And maybe, just maybe, by shoving his own stupid circular logic back into his face, even if he doesn't admit it here, he might look back at himself and say "fuck, I really do come across as a dick."

and don't get me started on idra. I genuinely like the guy, but for fuck's sakes, grow a sack and act like a human being with some sportsmanship. I'm sure I could get along with him just dandy in person, so why can't I through the internet?

for e-sports to truly grow, the public needs to not view us as the angry, raging basement dwellers that the OP (and idra, BTW) portray.

"I like to tape my thumbs to my hands to see what it would be like to be a dinosaur."
Honeybadger
Profile Joined August 2010
United States821 Posts
August 12 2011 08:28 GMT
#175
On August 12 2011 16:30 blabber wrote:
They are the best commentating duo right now. They're pretty mediocre though. It's just that everyone else is so bad in comparison.


not that I disagree (I personally think QXC is my favorite caster) but what makes them mediocre if they're the best? That's setting a pretty arbitrary bar.
"I like to tape my thumbs to my hands to see what it would be like to be a dinosaur."
Dfgj
Profile Joined May 2008
Singapore5922 Posts
August 12 2011 08:35 GMT
#176
On August 12 2011 17:28 Honeybadger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:30 blabber wrote:
They are the best commentating duo right now. They're pretty mediocre though. It's just that everyone else is so bad in comparison.


not that I disagree (I personally think QXC is my favorite caster) but what makes them mediocre if they're the best? That's setting a pretty arbitrary bar.

A lot of things about casting can be measured with some degree of objectivity (speaking ability, accuracy of casts, etc) or by reference to others in the field (SC2 commentators aren't the only commentators in the world, after all).
Linkirvana
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Netherlands365 Posts
August 12 2011 09:55 GMT
#177
I do not agree with the OP, I have not noticed the AMAGAD ITS SO BAD kind of things the OP discribes. Also the examples given were not satisfactory, I could think of the same amount of examples for any other caster.

I feel that the OP might be too ignorant about what it's actually like to be a caster, and passes judgement way too quick. I've heard all kinds of casters say straight up bullshit, but from what I've been told that's part of the job, also especially with a co-caster you don't straight up call bullshit on what the other just said, it doesn't work like that.

Your points hold up if someone was actually doing a careful analysis of the games, but this is not the case, they are casting. And to me the insight they provide is good enough - telling us what they at first glance find probable is all they can do.

On a final note I'd refer to Chill's unbiased cast if that's what you so desire. Blaming Artosis for being human is rediculous.
rauk
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States2228 Posts
August 12 2011 11:35 GMT
#178
On August 12 2011 17:27 Honeybadger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 00:28 ZaloMonkada wrote:

What the heck man, it seems like you're just attacking the poster at this point o.o I thought he had valid points, even though he didnt have tact. You dont have to be polite to make a valid point (ex: idra)


The only way to stop these BM morons is to ostracize them. And maybe, just maybe, by shoving his own stupid circular logic back into his face, even if he doesn't admit it here, he might look back at himself and say "fuck, I really do come across as a dick."

and don't get me started on idra. I genuinely like the guy, but for fuck's sakes, grow a sack and act like a human being with some sportsmanship. I'm sure I could get along with him just dandy in person, so why can't I through the internet?

for e-sports to truly grow, the public needs to not view us as the angry, raging basement dwellers that the OP (and idra, BTW) portray.



yea kraz is such a dick. how dare he criticize tastetosis on valid points; i'm kicking him out of usc esports next semester.
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 16:35:44
August 12 2011 16:30 GMT
#179
Usually not a fan of these threads, but your points are actually valid for the most part. People assume such defensive positions against criticisms on Tasteless and Artosis, it's not very productive at all. The OP's suggestions could help improve the commentators, and each point had sound reasoning and evidence.

I have been a fan of Artosis' casting for a long time, especially back in the Brood War days. Despite some first-hand experiences of his bad manner online, I have always respected his casting. For me, Artosis' bias does not bother me as much as Tasteless' simple incapability. I view Tasteless as the main problem, not Artosis. I don't find Tasteless' jokes funny, his analysis are often so wrong, his exaggerations are tiresome, and his understanding of the game is simply lacking. I have always felt this way about him since Brood War. I like him as a person, especially for his hard work for the community, but I honestly have no idea why he is regarded so high in terms of commentating. He has never been good.

Artosis often has to agree with Tasteless' dumb analysis because he doesn't want to make him look stupid. This hampers their commentating as a duo.

EDIT: In my opinion, Chill is the best commentator around. He has the ideal balance of analysis, humor and other intangibles. (His jokes are actually funny/witty, unlike Tasteless and Artosis making critter jokes - hated listening to those 'tasteless' lines for a long time now) Guys like Chill and Day9 can't even be compared to Tasteless, and I hope there will be more commentators like them in the future for our community.
fush
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada563 Posts
August 12 2011 18:28 GMT
#180
On August 12 2011 17:27 Honeybadger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 00:28 ZaloMonkada wrote:

What the heck man, it seems like you're just attacking the poster at this point o.o I thought he had valid points, even though he didnt have tact. You dont have to be polite to make a valid point (ex: idra)


The only way to stop these BM morons is to ostracize them. And maybe, just maybe, by shoving his own stupid circular logic back into his face, even if he doesn't admit it here, he might look back at himself and say "fuck, I really do come across as a dick."

and don't get me started on idra. I genuinely like the guy, but for fuck's sakes, grow a sack and act like a human being with some sportsmanship. I'm sure I could get along with him just dandy in person, so why can't I through the internet?

for e-sports to truly grow, the public needs to not view us as the angry, raging basement dwellers that the OP (and idra, BTW) portray.



has it occurred to you that you're no different from the very persona that you're accusing the OP of having?

the OP provided an opinion, backed with what he deemed as relevant examples. now you and i may not agree with him but he has given us a quality blog post and something to think about. all you've done is openly attack the OP and implicitly done the same to everyone who agrees with him, categorized them into a subclass of "raging basement dwellers" and "morons", all the while not providing any means of defending your own point of view.

frankly, i doubt any professional will take criticism personally. tastosis shouldn't take posts like this and grow bitter about the community, they should be glad that people care enough to point out obvious flaws (albeit in this case, the criticism wasn't voiced very tactfully), and i'm sure they see better than anyone how they can improve upon. on sotg, artosis said something about day9/destiny fans being too hardcore, and i took it as a commentary on fans (such as yourself maybe?) who view their idol as some form of infallible god figure who can do no wrong. that isn't productive for anyone, and only leads to complacency for lesser people.
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