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On August 11 2011 21:49 lolsixtynine wrote: Tasteless lost his passion years ago
That's the voice I read this entire post in.
Tasteless actually has already replied to the people criticizing his doing anything other than starcraft 2 on his twitter a couple months ago.
+ Show Spoiler [Nick's response] +
On some level, I guess this can be taken almost as complementary that they're being held to such a high standard.
The personal attacks undo every valid point you make, unfortunately.
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All I got from your post is that you like the word salient and you don't know how to spell material. There's so much wrong with everything you said and I don't feel like writing you a book to explain why. If I had to take a stab in the dark I'd assume you're a pretty boring person. All in all your post is pretty bad.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 11 2011 20:46 Kraznaya wrote: WARNING: THIS IS PRETTY FUCKING LONG AND KIND OF RANTY
Okay, after having my ears nearly bleed out listening to Tastosis attempt to GSL Group D on August 9th, I felt compelled to write up addressing a lot of problems I have with Tastosis casting. I’m doing this because Tastosis is a highly regarded brand name amongst foreigners, and their attempts at analysis often accepted without question by the community, despite the fact their casting is riddled with bias and errors. I understand that there are a lot of fans amongst the community who love Tastosis, not in the least because they provide “entertaining commentary” (which is subjective, so I won’t dwell upon that too much), and will dismiss this criticism out of hand. After all, Tastosis is theoretically good for ESPORTS, and hating on them is just uncool, or something. However, I feel as if blind acceptance of Tastosis casting, especially as flawed as it is, is a detriment to both the development of their improvement as casters and good analytical English casting as a whole, and so feel the need to detail the issues with their analysis.
First, I’ll address the much less important member of the pair, Tasteless. In some ways, I view Tasteless as the “custodian” of the cast, as he takes care of a lot of the menial tasks such as player introductions, play by play, and joking around about random things like critters (which I personally find grating, but a lot of people find this amusing, so more power to them and him), while Artosis attempts to do the real meaty analysis.
Tasteless doesn’t offer much at all in the way of analysis, and when he does he’s often reduced to echoing Artosis’s statements or pointing out obvious blunders by players. Tasteless’s casting is most annoying to me when he attempts to unfairly criticize what he perceives as poor play, despite the fact that his lacking skill at SC2 play and analysis put him in no position to do so. The most salient example of this, which keeps happening over and over again throughout their casts ever since MMA’s dropship style became popularized at MLG Columbus, is his constant criticism of Terran usage of medivac octodrops against Zerg after Mutalisks have popped (“I’m not sure he should be doing this, this doesn’t look like it will work…”). He has a very simplistic view with regards to the goal of the drop: to cause materiel damage to the Zerg, whether in form tech buildings, drones, hatcheries, etc. However, this is not the only way medivac drops can improve a Terran’s position in a game against Zerg. For example, if a medivac was at the other side of a map and was picked off by Zerg’s mutas attempting to harass a far flung expansion, BUT the Terran managed to move his main marine-tank army to a forward position against the Zerg and siege up, the Terran has in fact used his medivacs to great effect. It is much easier to tank push against a Zerg when you are doing multipronged harass to divert units, but Tasteless doesn’t realize this, because that requires strategic depth and thinking which he isn’t applying to the game. This is personally aggravating to me because in essence, Tasteless is criticizing players who are far better than him for doing a tactical maneuver that he doesn’t understand, and a wide swathe of the audience viewing back home willingly takes his words at face value. Talk about a step backward for helping the SC2 community understand the game.
Personally, Tasteless as a caster reminds me a lot of Fruitdealer the SC2 player. Both are highly regarded for being basically the founding member of their respective profession (Tasteless the English Starcraft caster, Fruitdealer the SC2 champion), but time has worn them down and they seem a lot less inspired in doing their jobs than they did a long time ago. In particular, Tasteless had a much better head for BW analysis than he does for SC2, and he did it at a higher level, and his most salient points in his SC2 casts are often back analogies to BW. What does that tell me? That Tasteless isn’t really putting his heart and soul into wrapping his head around the ever evolving SC2 scene, and he’s coasting on prior reputation and experience to keep his seat warm. Throw in the rumors of constant drinking and partying in Seoul (and the obvious parallel here again), and I’d argue that Tasteless has been as disrespectful to his job as Fruitdealer has been to his (minus the blatant lying to sc2con, of course). I hope Tasteless either bucks up and starts taking his job seriously and quit to make room for a caster who actually has real respect for the SC2 scene (Wolf comes to mind).
With all that said, most of my issues with regards to Tastosis have to do with Artosis. Although probably the lesser half of the archon by reputation at the inception of GSL, Artosis has clearly superseded Tasteless in importance, due to both Tasteless’s lackadaisical attitude as detailed above, and his own dedication to attempting to provide strategic analysis. Adding that to the fact that Tasteless basically parrots Artosis’s opinion as much as possible, and it’s clear that any deep rooted issues with the cast begin and end with Artosis. While Artosis’s attempts to provide analysis are commendable, there are a gamut of issues involved.
If you have any idea at all how SC2 works, it doesn’t take any effort at all to figure out which player Artosis is rooting for when you listen to him cast a game. He always has a rooting interest, and he will relentlessly note the “brilliance” of his anointed player while harping on his “uncertainty” about the choices of his disfavored side. This was plaintively obvious in Group D, when Artosis’s totem pole of preferred players ran something to the tune of Alicia = Nada > Coca > Keen. At the inception of Keen’s first game, Artosis immediately labeled Keen as the “by far the weakest player in the group.” Now, not only is that an erroneous statement (I’ll get to Artosis’s fast eroding knowledge of the Korean scene in general later, especially with regards to players who have not been in Code S long term), but Keen just beat Coca in Code A in Code A July and did an epic ceremony to back it up to boot. Artosis continued on to criticize Keen’s strategic choices, which consisted of hellion harassment off 2 base into a marine tank timing push designed to kill Coca’s third. Now, Artosis’s criticisms may have had some validity if they were playing on a Terran favored map, but they were playing on Bel Shir Beach, home of the 30% TvZ winrate, the bane of Jinro, and a map where it is nearly impossible for Terran to secure a third against Zerg, not to mention a fourth. Keen rolled the dice on a 2 base timing because he basically had no other choice, and played a hard fought game in which he ultimately lost. Interestingly, while Tasteless had a somewhat higher opinion of Keen prior to the game, praising him at the inception as a “scrappy player,” he was soon echoing Artosis’s sentiments and nitpicking every flaw in Keen’s play, presumably due to his lack of ability to win a TvZ on Zerg Shir Beach.
Before discussing Artosis’s mangling of analyzing Keen’s next game against Alicia, we first must contrast it by looking at a game with two players that Artosis respects, Nada vs Alicia. Alicia is well known for being one of Artosis’s pets, but Nada is a BW Legend, the Genius Terran (NOT the Renaissance Terran, for the love of all that is good and holy), and commands respect. Nada did a twist on the infamous TvP 1/1/1 all in, disguising his build as a marauder expand before switching add ons to arrive at the essential components for marine, tank, and banshee production. This was a creative build by Nada, but not anything that hasn’t been attempted before (for more disguised 1/1/1 all in builds, see MKP’s final against Sase at CPL China, where he opened marine octodrop + 3 hellion runby and fake 2 rax -> reactor cancel into 1/1/1 builds).
Nevertheless, Artosis continually praised Nada on the genius of his build, holding it as an example of good creative play. This actually isn’t a problem for Artosis when viewed in and of itself, but when you contrast how he analyzes this build to a disguised build by a player he dislikes, the bias is clear.
In the loser’s match between Keen and Alicia, Keen opened with a very unusual build after having scouted Alicia on close air positions Metalopolis and seeing Alicia take 2 gas. Having opened with the standard build for a 1 rax gasless FE, Keen opted to lay down 2 more rax for a total of 3 rax no gas upon completion of his orbital. Having seen this, Artosis immediately pounced on Keen and labeled him as a “sneaky player” trying to “sneak” his way past a “much better” player in Alicia by attempting an all in. Even after Keen followed up by planting a CC (thus making it a 3 naked rax expand), Artosis continued to label his build an all in and wondered why Keen didn’t bring all his scvs when he poked with his group of marines.
3 naked rax into an expand is clearly not an all in. In order to do a marine scv all in, you need to either bitbybit with your first 2 rax and hit immediately, or go up to 5 or 6 rax like TLO famously did against Idra. In terms of similar builds, it is closest to a 2 rax pressure into expand (zatic build, used very often by Polt in the GSL Super Tournament), or the 3 gate into expand that Protosses do. In fact, 3 naked rax is in effect the exact same amount of production structures as a standard Terran 2 rax (1 reactor and 1 tech lab). The build is designed to poke and pressure your opponent, denying an expansion with bunkers if he attempts to greedily expand too early, while remaining safe against all forms of pressure so that you yourself can take an expansion.
Why did Keen opt for this unusual 3 naked rax into expansion? Because he made a calculated read based on his scouting, opponent, and map. The game was played on Metalopolis close air positions, spots ideal for void ray play, a strong build against 1 rax gasless FE. Alicia is well known for void ray all ins (see his game against MKP in GSL July’s Code S group stage), and Keen scouted that Alicia had gone for two gas. In that position, it was a good read by Keen to expect a 3 gate void ray all in, against which he would have been miles ahead with his multitude of marines and ready expansion. However, upon seeing the fact that he was not harassed by void rays, Keen smartly used the ability of his build to pressure fast expansions to deny Alicia’s expansion. The fact that he was able to get up the ramp and kill a few sentries and probes was just gravy, and the build would have succeeded in denying Alicia’s expansion even if that had not happened. Keen continued to show savvy reactive play when he immediately threw down an engineering bay upon seeing Alicia’s low sentry count despite the quick two gas and lack of void rays, and killed all of Alicia’s DTs and wiped the floor with him for the rest of the (short) game.
Obviously, mistakes happen during casting. In fact, while watching the game, I initially assumed the same as Artosis when I saw Keen lay down 2 raxes after his orbital finished. However, when Keen did not lay down additional raxes and continued to bank up money, it was obvious that that was a gun ho assessment and he was planning somewhat different. However, Artosis never changed his diagnosis of the situation, continuing to label Keen’s build an “all-in” long after it clearly wasn’t, and only backtracked after Keen’s initial marine poke by justifying his analysis and saying he was “transitioning out of an all in.” Given that Artosis often has very tight strategic reads on positions, particularly in games with players he likes, such as Nada vs Alicia, I feel like his misanalysis was colored by his biases against Keen and toward Alicia, and his preconceived notions of Keen as a player, something that’s backed up by the rather unequal vocabulary that he uses to describe the two. Thus, with Artosis, the root of his misanalysis while casting generally comes from his biases. His biases, in turn, are often a product of his ignorance about players, especially new players just beginning to make a splash on the scene.
And that’s the last fault of Tastosis. They no longer have any finger on the pulse of the Korean SC2 scene, on what is going on the Korean ladder and who’s making a name for himself in Code A, GSTL, or even Korean Iccup Weeklys. Back in the Open Seasons, this was much more excusable, given the less structured nature of the scene and lesser expectations for good reporting. Now, though, we have people like Wolf (note: yes, Wolf has his own biases and misanalyses, but that’s another story for another day) giving us inside info on the inner workings of FXO-fOu, and all their practice partners and ladder opponents (which cover the entire scene). Coupled with the rather astounding lack of knowledge that Tastosis have of what’s going on in tournaments below Code S (I’m pretty certain that I watch more Korean SC2 games than they do at this point, and that’s part of their job), and you have casters with flawed impressions of what’s actually going on in the scene. This puts a hamper on their analysis, and makes their impressions of the metagame feel very dated as a result. Add that to the fact that Artosis tends to do a much better analyzing players who he knows and isn’t biased against, and you have a real cause for improvement in their casting.
This isn’t to say Artosis hasn’t improved at all since GSL’s inception. In fact, his biases used to be much more blatant, and I often had to mute the cast whenever a zerg was playing due to ridiculously one sided nature of his casts. However, Artosis showed commendable dedication toward improving his casting by switching to Protoss so he could have a less biased perspective on the metagame. I hope that he takes these criticisms about bias and lack of metagame knowledge hampering his analysis with the same amount of heart.
Inb4 tl;dr, YOU’RE RUINING ESPORTS, etc.
First, I'd state that you are of course entitled to your own opinions and your arguments holds validity to the extent that you are showing your opinions via your observations. However, I would argue that certain parts of your claims are somewhat misleading to the readers.
Let's start with the first point regarding Tasteless: you yourself highlight the fact that Tasteless is a "custodian" role, a.k.a. the play-by-play guy. With this point now highlighted, let's look at your arguments: In terms of the "parroting Artosis" or "pointing out blatantly obvious mistakes", he is, once again, a play-by-play caster. His role is to simply show what is going on. This casting part is integral. Even though you or I, a hardcore member of the community, may not need it, overall his play-by-play style needs to exist just as much as Artosis' role as an analyst. Football, soccer, Starcraft BW, majority of the 'casting duo' usually stays in this casting duo style.
Tasteless, in your point regarding MLG Columbus and MMA's dropship playstyle, he mentioned the points where he makes because he himself is a player and he has played the game to the extent of the metagame. Do you honestly believe that Tasteless, a Starcraft BW professional player, does not know the importance of drops? Why the drops are done? Drops were even more important and fragile back in Brood War in T v Z because they were scourges literally flying everywhere 1.5 times faster than the dropships, killing them whenever possible. To the regular viewers, they simply see drops as 'damage must be done to be paid off', so Tasteless, in my opinion, tones down his play-by-play casting to the level of the viewer.
Let's make more direct comparisons to that of Starcraft BW since they are both E-sport games that are broadcasted fairly well.
Starcraft BW in Korea consist of 3 commentators: 1 play-by-play and 2 analysts. This style is used, but the Korean majority never criticize the 'play-by-play' commentator. Why? Because he does what he needs to do in his job description: mention what is happening. Why should he analyze? And let's say he does analyze: then he is simply hurting the 'flow' of the casting trio, and thus should actually try to avoid analyzing if possible.
*Your argument of the point of "Tasteless is criticizing players who are far better than him for doing a tactical maneuver that he doesn’t understand, and a wide swathe of the audience viewing back home willingly takes his words at face value. Talk about a step backward for helping the SC2 community understand the game." makes me want to point out that you yourself are doing the same thing. Please post your credentials and show that you are much better than Tasteless before you criticize him. You stating is saying that we the viewers should also not criticize players whenever we post on the LR Forums. Of course, the refutation might be, "oh but it's on live", well the internet is read daily and I'm certain that there are many who do read through the Live reports, so then in that case, we as well should never criticize or mention our opinions in the same sense.
*Then your analysis of Tasteless not having the same 'passion' for Starcraft 2. Perhaps this is true, perhaps this is not. We will never know until Tasteless himself informs us. But what we do know is that he is passionate about casting, he is passionate about E-sports, and he is simply not just 'cruising' through the fame that he has carried in the past just as Fruitdealer is. How do we know this? Because he still tries his best to fit his role as a play-by-play caster.
Another point that we should look at: "Artosis has clearly superseded Tasteless in importance, due to both Tasteless’s lackadaisical attitude as detailed above, and his own dedication to attempting to provide strategic analysis."
*To you, as a hardcore member of the community, may argue this that Artosis "clearly superseded" Tasteless. Why? Because we, as hardcore members of the community, simply want analysis to learn and get better at the game. But I would once again argue that Artosis is doing his job as an analyst and that Tasteless is doing his job as a play-by-play commentator. So in no way has Artosis "clearly supersede" Tasteless in any sense. They are both just doing their roles. Tasteless "parroting Artosis" is, a point to you, maybe a mistake that Tasteless occasionally does as this goes a little above that of his role, but I could also make a counterargument that he dumbs down Artosis' analysis to simpler ways and repetition of certain things never hurts to help increase the viewers' knowledge. It may annoy some people, but it will never hurt the learning, which is what Artosis' role is for.
Now let's look at your points regarding Artosis. I will once again give a point to your argument: Artosis is clearly passionate and very biased in his casts. The most infamous example is that of Nestea vs SCFou game 5 where he was literally screaming his head off for the older veteran to win. But let's look at your criticisms. First your mention of the Keen vs Coca game. Do you know why Keen is currently at the fame that he is? It is because of his ceremonies. He plays occasionally brilliant games and his attitude is certainly entertaining to watch, but really? Keen is not the underdog of this group? He does not have as much credentials as the rest. Coca has shown recent strong performances in the GSL Super Tourney and to Keen's credit, he has also done well in the Code A's, but it is hard to see from an objective point of view as Keen not being an underdog. Alicia has shown strong games in Code A, and NaDa is once again, just as in Starcraft 1, the most consistent player around. So, once again, hard to not see Keen as an underdog compared to the rest. Perhaps not the best wording from Artosis for calling Keen a "scrub" or a "sneaky player" but he is kind of a human being... I guess he should always think about 30 seconds before saying something just like how we make posts on forums right? Of course, this might be a case if Artosis did it every time, but for the most part, Artosis criticizes with evidence behind his harsh criticisms. TheBest? Uhh Banshee control was slightly sad to watch? BitbyBit? Please don't start on this point. There's plenty of evidence of Artosis being too harsh, but for the most part, at least he has evidence behind it.
*Then the next part of the 3 naked rax is not an all-in. Korean servers are infamous for doing this and it being an all-in. It's hard to not see this build in a server where aggression is famous for and it's a best of 1 and not first think, of it's an all-in. At the situations where Artosis found himself in, and from his previous games he casted and his experience on the Korean Ladder, in my opinion, Artosis certainly had enough justification to call it an all-in at the time he did. So to simply assume this as lack of understanding of the game is kind of iffy. And he would mention that he 'transitioned out of the all-in' and at that point, it was true. From a look at it, it was an all-in. Artosis mentioned that Keen was even on SCVs to that of Alicia's. What does that reveal? He used his economy for an army, and spent no time on SCVs. That shows an 'all-in'.
Another fact to note is that Artosis sees something different from us the viewers. He can see what the players click, where they are looking at, and what units they are producing etc. That's why he has mentioned that Clide was the best player in the world: He was playing like the current BW players back a few seasons ago and had the mechanics just like that of BW Players. So I would argue back that it's not Artosis' bias, but rather his observations that are different from that of the viewers that has him mentioning these views.
So while there are certainly big issues with biased commentary, but at least Artosis can justfiy his bias and can, in his analysis, actually analyze.
Your final point regarding them being 'out of loop of the Korean scene'. I'd once again give a point to you: they both have been busy for quite some time casting IPLs, GSLs, MLGs, etc. Yet I would once again make a counterargument that their constant tournament castings and their dedication to their job (perhaps not the game) allows them to learn and give good commentary. They at least admit when they don't know a build rather than say that they know what's going on. I guess I'm just confused that you aren't jumping on this point about Tastosis if your final argument is that they seem so out of loop in terms of their metagame understanding.
Final note: please don't use ad hominem arguments...I mean really? Tasteless going out partying is hurting his job? He has done casting for quite some time even before GSL, so I highly doubt that he suddenly thought he could party and give up his job out of nowhere.
tl;dr: Chill out, they're doing fine. Besides your arguments are very nitpicky.
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On August 11 2011 22:09 Artifice wrote: All I got from your post is that you like the word salient and you don't know how to spell material. There's so much wrong with everything you said and I don't feel like writing you a book to explain why. If I had to take a stab in the dark I'd assume you're a pretty boring person. All in all your post is pretty bad.
Materiel (from the French "matériel" for equipment or hardware, related to the word material) is a term used in English to refer to the equipment and supplies in military and commercial supply chain management.
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On August 11 2011 22:07 Kraznaya wrote:
Tact and respect are reserved for people who have earned it. And you clearly haven't, no matter how many Internet credentials you conjure up.
This makes me sad about the growth of esports. You're clearly a fabulous representative of a community that is obviously ready for the mainstream. And you must command an astounding echelon of friends with such an approachable, friendly attitude.
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On August 11 2011 21:55 Jibba wrote: Saying Tasteless lost his passion is a polite way of saying he's a lot worse than he was when he casted BW.
Can we just get that out of the way already?
I think it's hard to say because his job is way different now than it was back then. As long as Artosis and Tasteless are paired together, you don't really need 2 people doing heavy analysis of the games.
There are times when Tasteless busts out a gem of in-game knowledge or something like that, but his general job right now is to "cater to the noobs" ( as he explained in S2/S3 ), so I think that's where his making fun of people who say he lost his passion comes from.
I do like the idea that someone mentioned that Tasteless could learn more about each player, what they do, etc. I think it would be challenging to get the Wolf-level understanding because Wolf actually lived in the FXO-Fou house, but at least like "Oh, this guy was practicing with X, Y, and Z so I would bet we see A or B builds out of him."
The OP itself is pretty meh. There's 1 salient point in it and a lot of misinformation or nitpicking otherwise. Artosis will always be bias, though, but he has improved dramatically in that regard. Constructive criticism is also usually not, by definition, using hostile language. That's kinda the whole idea.
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'the growth of esports' is the Godwin's Law of SC2
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On August 11 2011 21:53 Kraznaya wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 21:46 Senx wrote:On August 11 2011 21:41 Kraznaya wrote:On August 11 2011 21:39 Senx wrote: But this is the thing with the SC community, its constantly looking for flaws and hating on things instead of appreciating what we have or looking at the broader picture.
Luckily Tasteless, Day9 and Artosis have stopped reading these kind of TL threads or they'd probably commited suicide by now.
You guys need to take a step back and look at what you're actually complaining about.
But seriously though, HOW DARE tasteless and artosis be wrong in anything they say, I thought they were perfectly programmed robots. Flaws are for human beings, not for robots. This is pissing me off SOO much I have to go write a blog about it. Be right back. Please, read the entirety post before making assumptions on what was said. You're calling tasteless uninformed, that he calls things wrong and that he lacks passion. You're calling artosis biased but that he has improved since switching to protoss. This was my response. And I wrote this post with the intention to highlight ways that they could improve, and point out that they do mistakes, in order to try to improve their casting and dispel myths about it at the same time.
Well I don't know if you realize this, but every human makes misstake, none of us are perfect, Tastosis may be so liked because of some of their flaws, its what makes us special and unique.
They're going to keep making mistakes btw.
Also they don't read TL threads, in fact tasteless stopped reading it years ago because he says you'd go mental in days.
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5003 Posts
On August 11 2011 22:11 floor exercise wrote: 'the growth of esports' is the Godwin's Law of SC2
You must support everything no matter what for eSports!
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Tasteless, more like Passionless amirite?
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OP I think you need to take into consideration that just because the community puts Tastosis on a pedestal, doesn't mean that they are required to perform at a certain level. They don't suggest themselves better than any other casters. WHICH THEY ARE.
I think you are under the assumption that because they are so renowned that their margin for error be much tighter than other casters. Sure they make mistakes, but they continue to move forward. What would you suggest they do? Call a time-out to repent for their sins? You are entitled to your opinion, one that you have already conveyed, and I respect that. But it comes to a point in time where you don't have to respond to everyone in this thread regarding their opinion. We know where you stand. You don't have to counter-argue every individual who doesn't agree with you.
The great thing about this is it is all subjective. You can have your opinion and be right, I can have mine and be right. You also don't have to watch or listen to them ever again. That is your choice.
On August 11 2011 21:34 Honeybadger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 20:57 kellymilkies wrote: First of all, it is absolutely none of our business what they do outside of their job. I.E you saying Tasteless is partying or drinking in Seoul.
It's called relaxing after work and living his own life.
I think Tastosis in general are the best casting duo because of their chemistry. No one in that sense is better than them.
Tasteless is DEFINITELY masters, (and a really good one at that) and he's a protoss player, plus he plays both zerg and terran.
I know this because I DO play with him and I have watched him play first hand as well.
His understanding of the game as a player is really high, and him not being an analytic caster is because of his ROLE as part of the duo as Tastosis to be the "life" of the pair.
I don't even want to discuss about Dan, because he is far-by one of the pioneer of being an analytic caster.
Predictions are occasionally wrong as a caster because the meta-game in SC2 is evolving really quickly and sometimes it is hard to predict something correctly since 2rax CAN be all in, it can be 2 rax expand, 2 rax into blue flame into banshee, I mean, if we are talking about terran play here, Terran is such a flexible race compared to analyzing Protoss or Zerg which is usually easier to read.
But hey, what do I know :p \0/~ Owned hardcore (explaining the notion of predicting what someone will do with a very branching terran opening) by the woman that everyone thought knew nothing because of her accent. Fifty bucks says OP was one of the person who sent death threats to kelly when she was casting. (aside) Kelly FTW. One of the few girl SCII casters/players that I -really- respect, because she doesn't throw around the fact that she's a woman constantly as an attempt to get fans. Hell, I had to look up and see who wrote the post when I saw that she said she played -with- tastosis. It read like any other solid personality in the community.
She doesn't throw around the fact that shes a woman? Her name is KellyMilkies, and she posed for FHM with an interview about Starcraft. I'm glad you felt it necessary to openly confess your love and respect for Kelly in a thread that has nothing to do with her.
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On August 11 2011 22:07 Trumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 21:49 lolsixtynine wrote: Tasteless lost his passion years ago
That's the voice I read this entire post in. Tasteless actually has already replied to the people criticizing his doing anything other than starcraft 2 on his twitter a couple months ago. + Show Spoiler [Nick's response] +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPxY8lpYAUM On some level, I guess this can be taken almost as complementary that they're being held to such a high standard. The personal attacks undo every valid point you make, unfortunately. What is that video from lol
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On August 11 2011 22:14 Hermasaurus wrote:OP I think you need to take into consideration that just because the community puts Tastosis on a pedestal, doesn't mean that they are required to perform at a certain level. They don't suggest themselves better than any other casters. WHICH THEY ARE. I think you are under the assumption that because they are so renowned that their margin for error be much tighter than other casters. Sure they make mistakes, but they continue to move forward. What would you suggest they do? Call a time-out to repent for their sins? You are entitled to your opinion, one that you have already conveyed, and I respect that. But it comes to a point in time where you don't have to respond to everyone in this thread regarding their opinion. We know where you stand. You don't have to counter-argue every individual who doesn't agree with you. The great thing about this is it is all subjective. You can have your opinion and be right, I can have mine and be right. You also don't have to watch or listen to them ever again. That is your choice. Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 21:34 Honeybadger wrote:On August 11 2011 20:57 kellymilkies wrote: First of all, it is absolutely none of our business what they do outside of their job. I.E you saying Tasteless is partying or drinking in Seoul.
It's called relaxing after work and living his own life.
I think Tastosis in general are the best casting duo because of their chemistry. No one in that sense is better than them.
Tasteless is DEFINITELY masters, (and a really good one at that) and he's a protoss player, plus he plays both zerg and terran.
I know this because I DO play with him and I have watched him play first hand as well.
His understanding of the game as a player is really high, and him not being an analytic caster is because of his ROLE as part of the duo as Tastosis to be the "life" of the pair.
I don't even want to discuss about Dan, because he is far-by one of the pioneer of being an analytic caster.
Predictions are occasionally wrong as a caster because the meta-game in SC2 is evolving really quickly and sometimes it is hard to predict something correctly since 2rax CAN be all in, it can be 2 rax expand, 2 rax into blue flame into banshee, I mean, if we are talking about terran play here, Terran is such a flexible race compared to analyzing Protoss or Zerg which is usually easier to read.
But hey, what do I know :p \0/~ Owned hardcore (explaining the notion of predicting what someone will do with a very branching terran opening) by the woman that everyone thought knew nothing because of her accent. Fifty bucks says OP was one of the person who sent death threats to kelly when she was casting. (aside) Kelly FTW. One of the few girl SCII casters/players that I -really- respect, because she doesn't throw around the fact that she's a woman constantly as an attempt to get fans. Hell, I had to look up and see who wrote the post when I saw that she said she played -with- tastosis. It read like any other solid personality in the community. She doesn't throw around the fact that shes a woman? Her name is KellyMilkies, and she posed for FHM with an interview about Starcraft. I'm glad you felt it necessary to openly confess your love and respect for Kelly in a thread that has nothing to do with her. is the "Milkies" what i think it is?
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On August 11 2011 22:00 Honeybadger wrote: Keep talking, broceratops. All you're doing is just driving home my very standard psychoanalysis with defensive explanations. Did I mention that I'm in medical school? Psych profiles are part of my job. And you are fitting a very distinct mold more closely with every sentence you spit out.
no, even if you're actually in medical school: 1) you are in no position to diagnose/psychoanalyze anyone and pass it off as legitimate. 2) you have no job as of now.
stop flattering yourself.
on topic though the OP isn't wrong in his criticisms IMO, but no one has ever said tastosis is perfect. they have their unique style that many enjoy, and i don't mind that at all. they've become the voice of GSL for me and i enjoy listening to them despite their shortcomings (as do many others i'm sure). bias exists in any kind of commentary - to want one without bias is just wishful thinking.
i also wonder how you can so easily say artosis has lost touch with the korean scene based on his casting style - which has always been to root for certain players over others. lost touch would be more akin to not knowing who any of the players are, which i don't ever see outside of when they did GSTL where B teamers show up to play.
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United States22883 Posts
Do you honestly believe that Tasteless, a Starcraft BW professional player, does not know the importance of drops? This kind of stuff is what's bothersome. Half of you say they're just entertainers, but the other half hang on every word they say.
Neither Artosis nor Tasteless were remotely close to being BW pros, no matter how many times they say it, and they weren't top amateurs.
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On August 11 2011 22:15 SenorChang wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 22:07 Trumpet wrote:On August 11 2011 21:49 lolsixtynine wrote: Tasteless lost his passion years ago
That's the voice I read this entire post in. Tasteless actually has already replied to the people criticizing his doing anything other than starcraft 2 on his twitter a couple months ago. + Show Spoiler [Nick's response] +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPxY8lpYAUM On some level, I guess this can be taken almost as complementary that they're being held to such a high standard. The personal attacks undo every valid point you make, unfortunately. What is that video from lol
The Legend of Zelda TV show. It was about as successful as the Super Mario Bros show, aka not at all.
Edit: @Jibba, is that really fair to say about Artosis? I mean, he clearly wasn't the best of the foreign players, but he placed well at WCG more than once. Not the top, but far from just an above average player.
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On August 11 2011 20:57 Kikimiki wrote: 1- No one's ruining esports. 2- People listen to casters they ENJOY, not casters that are the most analytic. 3- Why don't you do yourself a favour and post a commentary make a justin channel if you were that awesome and want to help esport and make some money...
Personally I LOVE analytic casters. The more analytic (with good analysis), the better. Sure I enjoy jokes and great personalities, but if that is all that a caster has to offer, I might as well mute the sound.
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On August 11 2011 22:14 Hermasaurus wrote: She doesn't throw around the fact that shes a woman? Her name is KellyMilkies, and she posed for FHM with an interview about Starcraft. I'm glad you felt it necessary to openly confess your love and respect for Kelly in a thread that has nothing to do with her.
Eh, it's really hard to notice her posting ID on TL. How many posts do you read that don't have a special TL avatar with the name of the poster first? 99% of the time I read the posts and only glance at the name if there was something worth considering about the post.
and I like to think that the FHM gig was just for getting starcraft 2 more out there using what she had. FHM is very much not a magazine ready by gamers. I could be wrong, but don't hurt my dreams!
And yes, It was a side-note. Did I not say that, in parenthesis, just before my little extra-rant?
I'm glad you felt the need to rip on kelly, based on my comment (which was predominantly about the OP,) in a thread that has nothing to do with her :D
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On August 11 2011 22:09 UTL_Unlimited wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 11 2011 20:46 Kraznaya wrote: WARNING: THIS IS PRETTY FUCKING LONG AND KIND OF RANTY
Okay, after having my ears nearly bleed out listening to Tastosis attempt to GSL Group D on August 9th, I felt compelled to write up addressing a lot of problems I have with Tastosis casting. I’m doing this because Tastosis is a highly regarded brand name amongst foreigners, and their attempts at analysis often accepted without question by the community, despite the fact their casting is riddled with bias and errors. I understand that there are a lot of fans amongst the community who love Tastosis, not in the least because they provide “entertaining commentary” (which is subjective, so I won’t dwell upon that too much), and will dismiss this criticism out of hand. After all, Tastosis is theoretically good for ESPORTS, and hating on them is just uncool, or something. However, I feel as if blind acceptance of Tastosis casting, especially as flawed as it is, is a detriment to both the development of their improvement as casters and good analytical English casting as a whole, and so feel the need to detail the issues with their analysis.
First, I’ll address the much less important member of the pair, Tasteless. In some ways, I view Tasteless as the “custodian” of the cast, as he takes care of a lot of the menial tasks such as player introductions, play by play, and joking around about random things like critters (which I personally find grating, but a lot of people find this amusing, so more power to them and him), while Artosis attempts to do the real meaty analysis.
Tasteless doesn’t offer much at all in the way of analysis, and when he does he’s often reduced to echoing Artosis’s statements or pointing out obvious blunders by players. Tasteless’s casting is most annoying to me when he attempts to unfairly criticize what he perceives as poor play, despite the fact that his lacking skill at SC2 play and analysis put him in no position to do so. The most salient example of this, which keeps happening over and over again throughout their casts ever since MMA’s dropship style became popularized at MLG Columbus, is his constant criticism of Terran usage of medivac octodrops against Zerg after Mutalisks have popped (“I’m not sure he should be doing this, this doesn’t look like it will work…”). He has a very simplistic view with regards to the goal of the drop: to cause materiel damage to the Zerg, whether in form tech buildings, drones, hatcheries, etc. However, this is not the only way medivac drops can improve a Terran’s position in a game against Zerg. For example, if a medivac was at the other side of a map and was picked off by Zerg’s mutas attempting to harass a far flung expansion, BUT the Terran managed to move his main marine-tank army to a forward position against the Zerg and siege up, the Terran has in fact used his medivacs to great effect. It is much easier to tank push against a Zerg when you are doing multipronged harass to divert units, but Tasteless doesn’t realize this, because that requires strategic depth and thinking which he isn’t applying to the game. This is personally aggravating to me because in essence, Tasteless is criticizing players who are far better than him for doing a tactical maneuver that he doesn’t understand, and a wide swathe of the audience viewing back home willingly takes his words at face value. Talk about a step backward for helping the SC2 community understand the game.
Personally, Tasteless as a caster reminds me a lot of Fruitdealer the SC2 player. Both are highly regarded for being basically the founding member of their respective profession (Tasteless the English Starcraft caster, Fruitdealer the SC2 champion), but time has worn them down and they seem a lot less inspired in doing their jobs than they did a long time ago. In particular, Tasteless had a much better head for BW analysis than he does for SC2, and he did it at a higher level, and his most salient points in his SC2 casts are often back analogies to BW. What does that tell me? That Tasteless isn’t really putting his heart and soul into wrapping his head around the ever evolving SC2 scene, and he’s coasting on prior reputation and experience to keep his seat warm. Throw in the rumors of constant drinking and partying in Seoul (and the obvious parallel here again), and I’d argue that Tasteless has been as disrespectful to his job as Fruitdealer has been to his (minus the blatant lying to sc2con, of course). I hope Tasteless either bucks up and starts taking his job seriously and quit to make room for a caster who actually has real respect for the SC2 scene (Wolf comes to mind).
With all that said, most of my issues with regards to Tastosis have to do with Artosis. Although probably the lesser half of the archon by reputation at the inception of GSL, Artosis has clearly superseded Tasteless in importance, due to both Tasteless’s lackadaisical attitude as detailed above, and his own dedication to attempting to provide strategic analysis. Adding that to the fact that Tasteless basically parrots Artosis’s opinion as much as possible, and it’s clear that any deep rooted issues with the cast begin and end with Artosis. While Artosis’s attempts to provide analysis are commendable, there are a gamut of issues involved.
If you have any idea at all how SC2 works, it doesn’t take any effort at all to figure out which player Artosis is rooting for when you listen to him cast a game. He always has a rooting interest, and he will relentlessly note the “brilliance” of his anointed player while harping on his “uncertainty” about the choices of his disfavored side. This was plaintively obvious in Group D, when Artosis’s totem pole of preferred players ran something to the tune of Alicia = Nada > Coca > Keen. At the inception of Keen’s first game, Artosis immediately labeled Keen as the “by far the weakest player in the group.” Now, not only is that an erroneous statement (I’ll get to Artosis’s fast eroding knowledge of the Korean scene in general later, especially with regards to players who have not been in Code S long term), but Keen just beat Coca in Code A in Code A July and did an epic ceremony to back it up to boot. Artosis continued on to criticize Keen’s strategic choices, which consisted of hellion harassment off 2 base into a marine tank timing push designed to kill Coca’s third. Now, Artosis’s criticisms may have had some validity if they were playing on a Terran favored map, but they were playing on Bel Shir Beach, home of the 30% TvZ winrate, the bane of Jinro, and a map where it is nearly impossible for Terran to secure a third against Zerg, not to mention a fourth. Keen rolled the dice on a 2 base timing because he basically had no other choice, and played a hard fought game in which he ultimately lost. Interestingly, while Tasteless had a somewhat higher opinion of Keen prior to the game, praising him at the inception as a “scrappy player,” he was soon echoing Artosis’s sentiments and nitpicking every flaw in Keen’s play, presumably due to his lack of ability to win a TvZ on Zerg Shir Beach.
Before discussing Artosis’s mangling of analyzing Keen’s next game against Alicia, we first must contrast it by looking at a game with two players that Artosis respects, Nada vs Alicia. Alicia is well known for being one of Artosis’s pets, but Nada is a BW Legend, the Genius Terran (NOT the Renaissance Terran, for the love of all that is good and holy), and commands respect. Nada did a twist on the infamous TvP 1/1/1 all in, disguising his build as a marauder expand before switching add ons to arrive at the essential components for marine, tank, and banshee production. This was a creative build by Nada, but not anything that hasn’t been attempted before (for more disguised 1/1/1 all in builds, see MKP’s final against Sase at CPL China, where he opened marine octodrop + 3 hellion runby and fake 2 rax -> reactor cancel into 1/1/1 builds).
Nevertheless, Artosis continually praised Nada on the genius of his build, holding it as an example of good creative play. This actually isn’t a problem for Artosis when viewed in and of itself, but when you contrast how he analyzes this build to a disguised build by a player he dislikes, the bias is clear.
In the loser’s match between Keen and Alicia, Keen opened with a very unusual build after having scouted Alicia on close air positions Metalopolis and seeing Alicia take 2 gas. Having opened with the standard build for a 1 rax gasless FE, Keen opted to lay down 2 more rax for a total of 3 rax no gas upon completion of his orbital. Having seen this, Artosis immediately pounced on Keen and labeled him as a “sneaky player” trying to “sneak” his way past a “much better” player in Alicia by attempting an all in. Even after Keen followed up by planting a CC (thus making it a 3 naked rax expand), Artosis continued to label his build an all in and wondered why Keen didn’t bring all his scvs when he poked with his group of marines.
3 naked rax into an expand is clearly not an all in. In order to do a marine scv all in, you need to either bitbybit with your first 2 rax and hit immediately, or go up to 5 or 6 rax like TLO famously did against Idra. In terms of similar builds, it is closest to a 2 rax pressure into expand (zatic build, used very often by Polt in the GSL Super Tournament), or the 3 gate into expand that Protosses do. In fact, 3 naked rax is in effect the exact same amount of production structures as a standard Terran 2 rax (1 reactor and 1 tech lab). The build is designed to poke and pressure your opponent, denying an expansion with bunkers if he attempts to greedily expand too early, while remaining safe against all forms of pressure so that you yourself can take an expansion.
Why did Keen opt for this unusual 3 naked rax into expansion? Because he made a calculated read based on his scouting, opponent, and map. The game was played on Metalopolis close air positions, spots ideal for void ray play, a strong build against 1 rax gasless FE. Alicia is well known for void ray all ins (see his game against MKP in GSL July’s Code S group stage), and Keen scouted that Alicia had gone for two gas. In that position, it was a good read by Keen to expect a 3 gate void ray all in, against which he would have been miles ahead with his multitude of marines and ready expansion. However, upon seeing the fact that he was not harassed by void rays, Keen smartly used the ability of his build to pressure fast expansions to deny Alicia’s expansion. The fact that he was able to get up the ramp and kill a few sentries and probes was just gravy, and the build would have succeeded in denying Alicia’s expansion even if that had not happened. Keen continued to show savvy reactive play when he immediately threw down an engineering bay upon seeing Alicia’s low sentry count despite the quick two gas and lack of void rays, and killed all of Alicia’s DTs and wiped the floor with him for the rest of the (short) game.
Obviously, mistakes happen during casting. In fact, while watching the game, I initially assumed the same as Artosis when I saw Keen lay down 2 raxes after his orbital finished. However, when Keen did not lay down additional raxes and continued to bank up money, it was obvious that that was a gun ho assessment and he was planning somewhat different. However, Artosis never changed his diagnosis of the situation, continuing to label Keen’s build an “all-in” long after it clearly wasn’t, and only backtracked after Keen’s initial marine poke by justifying his analysis and saying he was “transitioning out of an all in.” Given that Artosis often has very tight strategic reads on positions, particularly in games with players he likes, such as Nada vs Alicia, I feel like his misanalysis was colored by his biases against Keen and toward Alicia, and his preconceived notions of Keen as a player, something that’s backed up by the rather unequal vocabulary that he uses to describe the two. Thus, with Artosis, the root of his misanalysis while casting generally comes from his biases. His biases, in turn, are often a product of his ignorance about players, especially new players just beginning to make a splash on the scene.
And that’s the last fault of Tastosis. They no longer have any finger on the pulse of the Korean SC2 scene, on what is going on the Korean ladder and who’s making a name for himself in Code A, GSTL, or even Korean Iccup Weeklys. Back in the Open Seasons, this was much more excusable, given the less structured nature of the scene and lesser expectations for good reporting. Now, though, we have people like Wolf (note: yes, Wolf has his own biases and misanalyses, but that’s another story for another day) giving us inside info on the inner workings of FXO-fOu, and all their practice partners and ladder opponents (which cover the entire scene). Coupled with the rather astounding lack of knowledge that Tastosis have of what’s going on in tournaments below Code S (I’m pretty certain that I watch more Korean SC2 games than they do at this point, and that’s part of their job), and you have casters with flawed impressions of what’s actually going on in the scene. This puts a hamper on their analysis, and makes their impressions of the metagame feel very dated as a result. Add that to the fact that Artosis tends to do a much better analyzing players who he knows and isn’t biased against, and you have a real cause for improvement in their casting.
This isn’t to say Artosis hasn’t improved at all since GSL’s inception. In fact, his biases used to be much more blatant, and I often had to mute the cast whenever a zerg was playing due to ridiculously one sided nature of his casts. However, Artosis showed commendable dedication toward improving his casting by switching to Protoss so he could have a less biased perspective on the metagame. I hope that he takes these criticisms about bias and lack of metagame knowledge hampering his analysis with the same amount of heart.
Inb4 tl;dr, YOU’RE RUINING ESPORTS, etc.
First, I'd state that you are of course entitled to your own opinions and your arguments holds validity to the extent that you are showing your opinions via your observations. However, I would argue that certain parts of your claims are somewhat misleading to the readers. Let's start with the first point regarding Tasteless: you yourself highlight the fact that Tasteless is a "custodian" role, a.k.a. the play-by-play guy. With this point now highlighted, let's look at your arguments: In terms of the "parroting Artosis" or "pointing out blatantly obvious mistakes", he is, once again, a play-by-play caster. His role is to simply show what is going on. This casting part is integral. Even though you or I, a hardcore member of the community, may not need it, overall his play-by-play style needs to exist just as much as Artosis' role as an analyst. Football, soccer, Starcraft BW, majority of the 'casting duo' usually stays in this casting duo style. Tasteless, in your point regarding MLG Columbus and MMA's dropship playstyle, he mentioned the points where he makes because he himself is a player and he has played the game to the extent of the metagame. Do you honestly believe that Tasteless, a Starcraft BW professional player, does not know the importance of drops? Why the drops are done? Drops were even more important and fragile back in Brood War in T v Z because they were scourges literally flying everywhere 1.5 times faster than the dropships, killing them whenever possible. To the regular viewers, they simply see drops as 'damage must be done to be paid off', so Tasteless, in my opinion, tones down his play-by-play casting to the level of the viewer. Let's make more direct comparisons to that of Starcraft BW since they are both E-sport games that are broadcasted fairly well. Starcraft BW in Korea consist of 3 commentators: 1 play-by-play and 2 analysts. This style is used, but the Korean majority never criticize the 'play-by-play' commentator. Why? Because he does what he needs to do in his job description: mention what is happening. Why should he analyze? And let's say he does analyze: then he is simply hurting the 'flow' of the casting trio, and thus should actually try to avoid analyzing if possible. *Your argument of the point of "Tasteless is criticizing players who are far better than him for doing a tactical maneuver that he doesn’t understand, and a wide swathe of the audience viewing back home willingly takes his words at face value. Talk about a step backward for helping the SC2 community understand the game." makes me want to point out that you yourself are doing the same thing. Please post your credentials and show that you are much better than Tasteless before you criticize him. You stating is saying that we the viewers should also not criticize players whenever we post on the LR Forums. Of course, the refutation might be, "oh but it's on live", well the internet is read daily and I'm certain that there are many who do read through the Live reports, so then in that case, we as well should never criticize or mention our opinions in the same sense. *Then your analysis of Tasteless not having the same 'passion' for Starcraft 2. Perhaps this is true, perhaps this is not. We will never know until Tasteless himself informs us. But what we do know is that he is passionate about casting, he is passionate about E-sports, and he is simply not just 'cruising' through the fame that he has carried in the past just as Fruitdealer is. How do we know this? Because he still tries his best to fit his role as a play-by-play caster. Another point that we should look at: "Artosis has clearly superseded Tasteless in importance, due to both Tasteless’s lackadaisical attitude as detailed above, and his own dedication to attempting to provide strategic analysis." *To you, as a hardcore member of the community, may argue this that Artosis "clearly superseded" Tasteless. Why? Because we, as hardcore members of the community, simply want analysis to learn and get better at the game. But I would once again argue that Artosis is doing his job as an analyst and that Tasteless is doing his job as a play-by-play commentator. So in no way has Artosis "clearly supersede" Tasteless in any sense. They are both just doing their roles. Tasteless "parroting Artosis" is, a point to you, maybe a mistake that Tasteless occasionally does as this goes a little above that of his role, but I could also make a counterargument that he dumbs down Artosis' analysis to simpler ways and repetition of certain things never hurts to help increase the viewers' knowledge. It may annoy some people, but it will never hurt the learning, which is what Artosis' role is for. Now let's look at your points regarding Artosis. I will once again give a point to your argument: Artosis is clearly passionate and very biased in his casts. The most infamous example is that of Nestea vs SCFou game 5 where he was literally screaming his head off for the older veteran to win. But let's look at your criticisms. First your mention of the Keen vs Coca game. Do you know why Keen is currently at the fame that he is? It is because of his ceremonies. He plays occasionally brilliant games and his attitude is certainly entertaining to watch, but really? Keen is not the underdog of this group? He does not have as much credentials as the rest. Coca has shown recent strong performances in the GSL Super Tourney and to Keen's credit, he has also done well in the Code A's, but it is hard to see from an objective point of view as Keen not being an underdog. Alicia has shown strong games in Code A, and NaDa is once again, just as in Starcraft 1, the most consistent player around. So, once again, hard to not see Keen as an underdog compared to the rest. Perhaps not the best wording from Artosis for calling Keen a "scrub" or a "sneaky player" but he is kind of a human being... I guess he should always think about 30 seconds before saying something just like how we make posts on forums right? Of course, this might be a case if Artosis did it every time, but for the most part, Artosis criticizes with evidence behind his harsh criticisms. TheBest? Uhh Banshee control was slightly sad to watch? BitbyBit? Please don't start on this point. There's plenty of evidence of Artosis being too harsh, but for the most part, at least he has evidence behind it. *Then the next part of the 3 naked rax is not an all-in. Korean servers are infamous for doing this and it being an all-in. It's hard to not see this build in a server where aggression is famous for and it's a best of 1 and not first think, of it's an all-in. At the situations where Artosis found himself in, and from his previous games he casted and his experience on the Korean Ladder, in my opinion, Artosis certainly had enough justification to call it an all-in at the time he did. So to simply assume this as lack of understanding of the game is kind of iffy. And he would mention that he 'transitioned out of the all-in' and at that point, it was true. From a look at it, it was an all-in. Artosis mentioned that Keen was even on SCVs to that of Alicia's. What does that reveal? He used his economy for an army, and spent no time on SCVs. That shows an 'all-in'. Another fact to note is that Artosis sees something different from us the viewers. He can see what the players click, where they are looking at, and what units they are producing etc. That's why he has mentioned that Clide was the best player in the world: He was playing like the current BW players back a few seasons ago and had the mechanics just like that of BW Players. So I would argue back that it's not Artosis' bias, but rather his observations that are different from that of the viewers that has him mentioning these views. So while there are certainly big issues with biased commentary, but at least Artosis can justfiy his bias and can, in his analysis, actually analyze. Your final point regarding them being 'out of loop of the Korean scene'. I'd once again give a point to you: they both have been busy for quite some time casting IPLs, GSLs, MLGs, etc. Yet I would once again make a counterargument that their constant tournament castings and their dedication to their job (perhaps not the game) allows them to learn and give good commentary. They at least admit when they don't know a build rather than say that they know what's going on. I guess I'm just confused that you aren't jumping on this point about Tastosis if your final argument is that they seem so out of loop in terms of their metagame understanding. Final note: please don't use ad hominem arguments...I mean really? Tasteless going out partying is hurting his job? He has done casting for quite some time even before GSL, so I highly doubt that he suddenly thought he could party and give up his job out of nowhere. tl;dr: Chill out, they're doing fine. Besides your arguments are very nitpicky.
UTL, thank you for your post. It's rare that I can agree to disagree with people on the Internet, but you bring up a lot of legitimate counterpoints to the discussion which I can respect.
Regarding Tasteless: Yes, he is the play by play caster and the "jokes person" on the cast. I have no problem with this. In fact, that's everything I want him to be. My wording on these tasks may have been a little harsh in the post ("menial tasks," etc.), but I have no problem with Tasteless fulfilling these duties if he doesn't want to steep himself into analysis. The problems with Tasteless are twofold: he sometimes attempts to do analysis, and when he does, he does it badly, and his excitement and enthusiasm for the game often seems forced or misplaced. If Tasteless didn't attempt to do analysis, he wouldn't be making the egregious mistakes that open himself to criticism. If Tasteless is truly attempting to "dumb down the game" for newbies, then he shouldn't be blatantly incorrect comments! He should instead be offering relevant advice that is useful (Nestea is producing a lot of drones to achieve full saturation of his mineral lines, that will really help his economy, etc.). Instead, he's trying to call player tactics bad because of his lack of understanding of the SC2 metagame.
Also, my comment on Artosis passing Tasteless was based on TL forum regard for each over the course of the last year.
Regarding Artosis: You know, it's funny... but TheBest is probably a much better player than Artosis gives him credit for. TheBest has eliminated MKP from ICCup Korean weeklies, and is in the top 5 of the FXO-fou house rankings. Yet... Artosis gives viewers the impression that TheBest is a player, mostly because he literally only has three games in the Ro8 of the Super Tournament against MKP to judge him on. In fact, TheBest is a pretty good example of what's wrong with Artosis's analysis, not what's right: he has a distorted view of the Korean scene because he only sees what goes on in the games he casts in Code S.
Also, it's pretty strange that you're claiming that there's an all in that exists on the Korean server of 3 naked rax with scv pull against Protoss. I've never heard of or seen this before. Marine scv all ins against Protoss consist of at least 5 raxes.
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Make it about the fucking players and stop worrying about this stupid horseshit. Why do you know tasteless drinks alot and what is wrong with artosis having favorite players. Nada is the greatest starcraft player ever so fuck off. Tasteless is comfortable enough up there to actually make funny jokes and have real interactions with artosis. Wolf and doa or whoever else make me actually mute the stream and not want to watch. I guess you prefer uncomfortable nerds with terrible jokes with phony hahaha laughs. If tastosis make changes to "improve" for you then I will like them less so would they be improving or not. Depends who you ask.
I just want to know what the fuck the pulse of the korean ladder means and how that matters. So they obviously should have no social lives, play ladder 6 hours a day so than can have a "pulse" on it, then visit all the team houses 3 times a week so they can know all about the code a players, and then of course do all their work for GOM. Not everything you see is going to be exactly how you want it to be but it might be perfect for someone else so get the fuck over it and stop watching if it bothers you that much. If there are enough people like you then changes will happen.
Yea and people need to stop thinking there was some kind of pro scene for brood war in the states and that tasteless and artosis were anywhere close to pro players.
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