Do you honestly believe that Tasteless, a Starcraft BW professional player, does not know the importance of drops?
This kind of stuff is what's bothersome. Half of you say they're just entertainers, but the other half hang on every word they say.
Neither Artosis nor Tasteless were remotely close to being BW pros, no matter how many times they say it, and they weren't top amateurs.
In their primes they were at the top of the US scene at the very least, which is probably the furthest you could go if you didn't live in korea at the time. I just can't see them not understanding some of the most basic RTS concepts after being at that level (it is nothing to scoff at).
Tasteless's opinion is that losing so many units in drops/harass is detrimental in the long run. This issue is also nothing new. Bisu even says he's stopped his harass heavy style against zerg because he thinks it's not worth it most of the time. I'm not saying he is correct, but his opinion is not unfounded. I think it's silly to think he lacks such basic RTS knowledge after having competed where they have.
The bottom line is people have different opinions about things. The OP's opinion differs from Tasteless' opinion, that's all. The quote you are referring to doesn't hang on to anything he is saying, it's just making the very fair assumption that Tasteless knows that Terran's don't intentionally send drops around with Mutas around half expecting to lose them.
On August 11 2011 20:46 Kraznaya wrote: First, I’ll address the much less important member of the pair, Tasteless. In some ways, I view Tasteless as the “custodian” of the cast, as he takes care of a lot of the menial tasks such as player introductions, play by play, and joking around about random things like critters (which I personally find grating, but a lot of people find this amusing, so more power to them and him), while Artosis attempts to do the real meaty analysis.
Saying that one is more important than the other is already showing your biased to a more strictly analytical cast that you want. If you have seen the LDHTV clips of Tastosis making jokes and talking about "critters" and random inside jokes, you'd realize that without their chemistry together over all these years they wouldn't be able to pick up each others jokes. This allows time to pass well between the games or in the boring start of the game... 9 pylon 13 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 18 core type of stuff.
On August 11 2011 20:46 Kraznaya wrote: Tasteless doesn’t offer much at all in the way of analysis, and when he does he’s often reduced to echoing Artosis’s statements or pointing out obvious blunders by players. Tasteless’s casting is most annoying to me when he attempts to unfairly criticize what he perceives as poor play, despite the fact that his lacking skill at SC2 play and analysis put him in no position to do so. The most salient example of this, which keeps happening over and over again throughout their casts ever since MMA’s dropship style became popularized at MLG Columbus, is his constant criticism of Terran usage of medivac octodrops against Zerg after Mutalisks have popped (“I’m not sure he should be doing this, this doesn’t look like it will work…”). He has a very simplistic view with regards to the goal of the drop: to cause materiel damage to the Zerg, whether in form tech buildings, drones, hatcheries, etc. However, this is not the only way medivac drops can improve a Terran’s position in a game against Zerg. For example, if a medivac was at the other side of a map and was picked off by Zerg’s mutas attempting to harass a far flung expansion, BUT the Terran managed to move his main marine-tank army to a forward position against the Zerg and siege up, the Terran has in fact used his medivacs to great effect. It is much easier to tank push against a Zerg when you are doing multipronged harass to divert units, but Tasteless doesn’t realize this, because that requires strategic depth and thinking which he isn’t applying to the game. This is personally aggravating to me because in essence, Tasteless is criticizing players who are far better than him for doing a tactical maneuver that he doesn’t understand, and a wide swathe of the audience viewing back home willingly takes his words at face value. Talk about a step backward for helping the SC2 community understand the game.
When he casts he is just saying that it is risky to do drops with mutalisks on the map, this creates suspense and has the audience questioning if it was actually the right move to do that particular drop. Tasteless does know that in the grand scheme of things that multi-pronged drops allow for an army to move up. Being a Master on the Korean server is damn good (KellyMilkies vouched for it) and the argument that you shouldn't criticize pros because you aren't a pro doesn't make sense. Look at any other sport, commentators are able to criticize peoples choices because there are multiple ways people can play the game. Arguing that Tasteless is ignorant or that he lacks understanding just isn't the case.
On August 11 2011 20:46 Kraznaya wrote: Personally, Tasteless as a caster reminds me a lot of Fruitdealer the SC2 player. Both are highly regarded for being basically the founding member of their respective profession (Tasteless the English Starcraft caster, Fruitdealer the SC2 champion), but time has worn them down and they seem a lot less inspired in doing their jobs than they did a long time ago. In particular, Tasteless had a much better head for BW analysis than he does for SC2, and he did it at a higher level, and his most salient points in his SC2 casts are often back analogies to BW. What does that tell me? That Tasteless isn’t really putting his heart and soul into wrapping his head around the ever evolving SC2 scene, and he’s coasting on prior reputation and experience to keep his seat warm. Throw in the rumors of constant drinking and partying in Seoul (and the obvious parallel here again), and I’d argue that Tasteless has been as disrespectful to his job as Fruitdealer has been to his (minus the blatant lying to sc2con, of course). I hope Tasteless either bucks up and starts taking his job seriously and quit to make room for a caster who actually has real respect for the SC2 scene (Wolf comes to mind).
This whole paragraph is full of horrible assumptions. Tasteless just wants to party, and doesn't have passion? Is that why Artosis talks about meeting tasteless everyday to talk about games, players and strategies? They stay up to date and talk about better ways to up their casting level. Tasteless is a play by play, captain obvious, make the audience laugh commentator. The cast has to be smooth, so instead of arguing high level stuff on air, Artosis takes the lead and tasteless props him up and asks him lowball questions. Saying wolf in this case just goes to show that you want two analytical commentators instead of a play-by-play.
On August 11 2011 20:46 Kraznaya wrote: With all that said, most of my issues with regards to Tastosis have to do with Artosis. Although probably the lesser half of the archon by reputation at the inception of GSL, Artosis has clearly superseded Tasteless in importance, due to both Tasteless’s lackadaisical attitude as detailed above, and his own dedication to attempting to provide strategic analysis. Adding that to the fact that Tasteless basically parrots Artosis’s opinion as much as possible, and it’s clear that any deep rooted issues with the cast begin and end with Artosis. While Artosis’s attempts to provide analysis are commendable, there are a gamut of issues involved.
Casts wouldn't be smooth if Tasteless and Artosis were arguing half the cast, this isn't some US talkshow were everyone is arguing and trying to make their point.
On August 11 2011 20:46 Kraznaya wrote: If you have any idea at all how SC2 works, it doesn’t take any effort at all to figure out which player Artosis is rooting for when you listen to him cast a game. He always has a rooting interest, and he will relentlessly note the “brilliance” of his anointed player while harping on his “uncertainty” about the choices of his disfavored side. This was plaintively obvious in Group D, when Artosis’s totem pole of preferred players ran something to the tune of Alicia = Nada > Coca > Keen. At the inception of Keen’s first game, Artosis immediately labeled Keen as the “by far the weakest player in the group.” Now, not only is that an erroneous statement (I’ll get to Artosis’s fast eroding knowledge of the Korean scene in general later, especially with regards to players who have not been in Code S long term), but Keen just beat Coca in Code A in Code A July and did an epic ceremony to back it up to boot. Artosis continued on to criticize Keen’s strategic choices, which consisted of hellion harassment off 2 base into a marine tank timing push designed to kill Coca’s third. Now, Artosis’s criticisms may have had some validity if they were playing on a Terran favored map, but they were playing on Bel Shir Beach, home of the 30% TvZ winrate, the bane of Jinro, and a map where it is nearly impossible for Terran to secure a third against Zerg, not to mention a fourth. Keen rolled the dice on a 2 base timing because he basically had no other choice, and played a hard fought game in which he ultimately lost. Interestingly, while Tasteless had a somewhat higher opinion of Keen prior to the game, praising him at the inception as a “scrappy player,” he was soon echoing Artosis’s sentiments and nitpicking every flaw in Keen’s play, presumably due to his lack of ability to win a TvZ on Zerg Shir Beach.
Before discussing Artosis’s mangling of analyzing Keen’s next game against Alicia, we first must contrast it by looking at a game with two players that Artosis respects, Nada vs Alicia. Alicia is well known for being one of Artosis’s pets, but Nada is a BW Legend, the Genius Terran (NOT the Renaissance Terran, for the love of all that is good and holy), and commands respect. Nada did a twist on the infamous TvP 1/1/1 all in, disguising his build as a marauder expand before switching add ons to arrive at the essential components for marine, tank, and banshee production. This was a creative build by Nada, but not anything that hasn’t been attempted before (for more disguised 1/1/1 all in builds, see MKP’s final against Sase at CPL China, where he opened marine octodrop + 3 hellion runby and fake 2 rax -> reactor cancel into 1/1/1 builds).
Nevertheless, Artosis continually praised Nada on the genius of his build, holding it as an example of good creative play. This actually isn’t a problem for Artosis when viewed in and of itself, but when you contrast how he analyzes this build to a disguised build by a player he dislikes, the bias is clear.
In the loser’s match between Keen and Alicia, Keen opened with a very unusual build after having scouted Alicia on close air positions Metalopolis and seeing Alicia take 2 gas. Having opened with the standard build for a 1 rax gasless FE, Keen opted to lay down 2 more rax for a total of 3 rax no gas upon completion of his orbital. Having seen this, Artosis immediately pounced on Keen and labeled him as a “sneaky player” trying to “sneak” his way past a “much better” player in Alicia by attempting an all in. Even after Keen followed up by planting a CC (thus making it a 3 naked rax expand), Artosis continued to label his build an all in and wondered why Keen didn’t bring all his scvs when he poked with his group of marines.
3 naked rax into an expand is clearly not an all in. In order to do a marine scv all in, you need to either bitbybit with your first 2 rax and hit immediately, or go up to 5 or 6 rax like TLO famously did against Idra. In terms of similar builds, it is closest to a 2 rax pressure into expand (zatic build, used very often by Polt in the GSL Super Tournament), or the 3 gate into expand that Protosses do. In fact, 3 naked rax is in effect the exact same amount of production structures as a standard Terran 2 rax (1 reactor and 1 tech lab). The build is designed to poke and pressure your opponent, denying an expansion with bunkers if he attempts to greedily expand too early, while remaining safe against all forms of pressure so that you yourself can take an expansion.
Why did Keen opt for this unusual 3 naked rax into expansion? Because he made a calculated read based on his scouting, opponent, and map. The game was played on Metalopolis close air positions, spots ideal for void ray play, a strong build against 1 rax gasless FE. Alicia is well known for void ray all ins (see his game against MKP in GSL July’s Code S group stage), and Keen scouted that Alicia had gone for two gas. In that position, it was a good read by Keen to expect a 3 gate void ray all in, against which he would have been miles ahead with his multitude of marines and ready expansion. However, upon seeing the fact that he was not harassed by void rays, Keen smartly used the ability of his build to pressure fast expansions to deny Alicia’s expansion. The fact that he was able to get up the ramp and kill a few sentries and probes was just gravy, and the build would have succeeded in denying Alicia’s expansion even if that had not happened. Keen continued to show savvy reactive play when he immediately threw down an engineering bay upon seeing Alicia’s low sentry count despite the quick two gas and lack of void rays, and killed all of Alicia’s DTs and wiped the floor with him for the rest of the (short) game.
Obviously, mistakes happen during casting. In fact, while watching the game, I initially assumed the same as Artosis when I saw Keen lay down 2 raxes after his orbital finished. However, when Keen did not lay down additional raxes and continued to bank up money, it was obvious that that was a gun ho assessment and he was planning somewhat different. However, Artosis never changed his diagnosis of the situation, continuing to label Keen’s build an “all-in” long after it clearly wasn’t, and only backtracked after Keen’s initial marine poke by justifying his analysis and saying he was “transitioning out of an all in.” Given that Artosis often has very tight strategic reads on positions, particularly in games with players he likes, such as Nada vs Alicia, I feel like his misanalysis was colored by his biases against Keen and toward Alicia, and his preconceived notions of Keen as a player, something that’s backed up by the rather unequal vocabulary that he uses to describe the two. Thus, with Artosis, the root of his misanalysis while casting generally comes from his biases. His biases, in turn, are often a product of his ignorance about players, especially new players just beginning to make a splash on the scene.
This is what I think of when you talk about being biased, Artosis is human, everyone is rooting for the players they like. Since you like Wolf so much, just look at him talking about the FXO players when someone else says that one of his players are weak or that they haven't put up results yet so they are unknown. He gets defensive too.
On August 11 2011 20:46 Kraznaya wrote: And that’s the last fault of Tastosis. They no longer have any finger on the pulse of the Korean SC2 scene, on what is going on the Korean ladder and who’s making a name for himself in Code A, GSTL, or even Korean Iccup Weeklys. Back in the Open Seasons, this was much more excusable, given the less structured nature of the scene and lesser expectations for good reporting. Now, though, we have people like Wolf (note: yes, Wolf has his own biases and misanalyses, but that’s another story for another day) giving us inside info on the inner workings of FXO-fOu, and all their practice partners and ladder opponents (which cover the entire scene). Coupled with the rather astounding lack of knowledge that Tastosis have of what’s going on in tournaments below Code S (I’m pretty certain that I watch more Korean SC2 games than they do at this point, and that’s part of their job), and you have casters with flawed impressions of what’s actually going on in the scene. This puts a hamper on their analysis, and makes their impressions of the metagame feel very dated as a result. Add that to the fact that Artosis tends to do a much better analyzing players who he knows and isn’t biased against, and you have a real cause for improvement in their casting.
This isn’t to say Artosis hasn’t improved at all since GSL’s inception. In fact, his biases used to be much more blatant, and I often had to mute the cast whenever a zerg was playing due to ridiculously one sided nature of his casts. However, Artosis showed commendable dedication toward improving his casting by switching to Protoss so he could have a less biased perspective on the metagame. I hope that he takes these criticisms about bias and lack of metagame knowledge hampering his analysis with the same amount of heart.
Inb4 tl;dr, YOU’RE RUINING ESPORTS, etc.
Do you watch SOTG, all Artosis talks about is watching Starcraft II every day of the week and catching up on every tournament and learning the meta-game. He knew it so well that when a new TvT just came out that no one has ever seen, he said, "Oh my god Tasteless, both of these guys are doing the exact same build (was a two Starport 1 banshee 1 viking build on Xel'naga) this meta-game has just came up over the weekend because I've never seen this before."
His Zerg bias wasn't anything new back then anyway, Zergs were having a hard time to 2 rax SCV all-in and it gets frustrating when that is all you see. Obviously it wasn't unfounded either, because Zerg has been getting buffs ever since.
Anyway, I think you are just being way too nit-picky and that you actually want 2 analytical casters who get into a discussion where both of them takes sides and argue their points. This would make people everywhere take sides against who is right and who is wrong and would have people discredit one caster over the other because of their viewpoint. Bringing up Tasteless's life outside of Starcraft II doesn't show his lack of passion for the game. Some of your criticisms are fair but some of your points should be taken out and some of your other points need to have a focus on how to fix these problems.
no, even if you're actually in medical school: 1) you are in no position to diagnose/psychoanalyze anyone and pass it off as legitimate. 2) you have no job as of now.
stop flattering yourself.
Someone needs to put on his sarcasm pants.
I'm not giving him medical advice. I won't do that until my name has an "M.D." following it. Just demonstrating that I've taken courses devoted to the points I brought up, and was simply applying them to the logic that we've all seen in this type of poster. Believe me or not, that's none of my concern.
And for the record, my real job (the one I get paid for, though the hours devoted to medical school is far and away in surpassing a job as well) actually does require lots of psychoanalysis. What that job is, is none of your concern, because you're an internet master and nobody could possibly have a decent grip of the psyche of a typical antisocial nerd.
On that note, I have to get ready for class. Cheers!
Actually, this post reminded me of the one thing I really wish they'd stop doing, which is calling almost any heavy aggression build an "all in."
I can't count the amount of times there has been an "all in" build that didn't end the game. It really bothers me because it's not just them, every caster does this, and very rarely is it true. It's the type of thing I expect to hear bad players blaming their losses on, not from the entire community of analytical casters.
Do you honestly believe that Tasteless, a Starcraft BW professional player, does not know the importance of drops?
This kind of stuff is what's bothersome. Half of you say they're just entertainers, but the other half hang on every word they say.
Neither Artosis nor Tasteless were remotely close to being BW pros, no matter how many times they say it, and they weren't top amateurs.
In their primes they were at the top of the US scene at the very least, which is probably the furthest you could go if you didn't live in korea at the time. I just can't see them not understanding some of the most basic RTS concepts after being at that level (it is nothing to scoff at).[
For a brief period Artosis was one of the better Ts in the US. But the US was worse than Canada and much worse than Europe. It'd be the equivalent of a low-mid NA GM today.
Seeing that line about how Tasteless doesn't respect his job enough made me angry actually. I think you have no clue of what you just said there, and the rest about him is none of your business.
The rest was mostly nitpicking in my eyes.
One point was good I guess: The part with the drops to gain a better position, alot of people don't see that most of the time (including me ofc) but I would say the following They are not on MBC/OGN-Caster level (yet) but they have the best chemistry out there and are, to put it simple, fun to watch.
ps: and wow your first response is some whining about TL standards -.-
Do you honestly believe that Tasteless, a Starcraft BW professional player, does not know the importance of drops?
This kind of stuff is what's bothersome. Half of you say they're just entertainers, but the other half hang on every word they say.
Neither Artosis nor Tasteless were remotely close to being BW pros, no matter how many times they say it, and they weren't top amateurs.
In their primes they were at the top of the US scene at the very least, which is probably the furthest you could go if you didn't live in korea at the time. I just can't see them not understanding some of the most basic RTS concepts after being at that level (it is nothing to scoff at).[
For a brief period Artosis was one of the better Ts in the US. But the US was worse than Canada and much worse than Europe. It'd be the equivalent of a low-mid NA GM today.
Consistently making top 5 in WCG USA means he beat out the rest of NA, so IMO he would actually be the equivalent of like slush or kiwikaki. Tasteless was one of the few names that popped up when discussing top US protosses. But that's not really the main point anyways. Being even close to that level should excuse him from forgetting that drops aren't just for a material advantage and.at least make us respect his opinion.
On August 11 2011 21:39 Senx wrote: But this is the thing with the SC community, its constantly looking for flaws and hating on things instead of appreciating what we have or looking at the broader picture.
Luckily Tasteless, Day9 and Artosis have stopped reading these kind of TL threads or they'd probably commited suicide by now.
You guys need to take a step back and look at what you're actually complaining about.
But seriously though, HOW DARE tasteless and artosis be wrong in anything they say, I thought they were perfectly programmed robots. Flaws are for human beings, not for robots. This is pissing me off SOO much I have to go write a blog about it. Be right back.
Please, read the entirety post before making assumptions on what was said.
You're calling tasteless uninformed, that he calls things wrong and that he lacks passion.
You're calling artosis biased but that he has improved since switching to protoss.
This was my response.
And I wrote this post with the intention to highlight ways that they could improve, and point out that they do mistakes, in order to try to improve their casting and dispel myths about it at the same time.
To me everything you said in the OP is pretty blatantly obvious :p. Criticisms to things like Tasteless not adding much content and randomly saying inane things and Artosis bias have existed since the beginning. It's really nothing groundbreaking you are bringing up here.
There will always be blind fanboys for everything. If you followed BW before, you know that there are fanboys for Flash, Bisu, and Jaedong and they are all irrationally supportive of their respective players as well as borderline delusional at times. If someone becomes popular, that's just what happens, they get blind fanboys. There's no reason to conclude that because those fanboys exist that most people think Tasteless is a strategical genius and Artosis is the pinnacle of unbiased commentary.
Really I'm sure no one read this and thought "wow, I've never thought about it like that before". That's why you are getting people attacking you for nitpicking because what you've pointed out just seems like pointless criticism that is already well known and accepted as part of their charm as a commentary duo.
This.
Also OP, yeah they're not perfect but Tasteless is meant to be the general caster and Artosis is meant to provide the analysis. So Tasteless missing things in game doesn't matter. As for Artosis being biased, it either bothers you greatly or you don't really care. *And it was Tasteless who kept calling Keen's build an all-in and asking why he hadn't brought all his scv's - not Artosis.
I think Artosis being biased doesn't overall affect his commentary. If it bothers you, it's subjective whether you like it, like humour.
no, even if you're actually in medical school: 1) you are in no position to diagnose/psychoanalyze anyone and pass it off as legitimate. 2) you have no job as of now.
stop flattering yourself.
Someone needs to put on his sarcasm pants.
I'm not giving him medical advice. I won't do that until my name has an "M.D." following it. Just demonstrating that I've taken courses devoted to the points I brought up, and was simply applying them to the logic that we've all seen in this type of poster. Believe me or not, that's none of my concern.
And for the record, my real job (the one I get paid for, though the hours devoted to medical school is far and away in surpassing a job as well) actually does require lots of psychoanalysis. What that job is, is none of your concern, because you're an internet master and nobody could possibly have a decent grip of the psyche of a typical antisocial nerd.
On that note, I have to get ready for class. Cheers!
which part of your original post at the OP came off as sarcasm? you're delusional. you accuse him of attacking and insulting tastosis (i don't disagree with this assessment), then you proceed to do the same by insinuating that he's a typical basement dweller with no friends and acts in a mold fitting to whatever class you've taken - and this opinion is legitimized because of the fact that you're supposedly in medical school (which it isn't). and now, you become defensive when someone calls you out on that very fact. where's the sarcasm in all of that?
it's funny because in your posts in this thread, while being extremely defensive of tastosis, you've actually failed to rebut any of the OP's claims. instead, most of your posts have been thinly veiled jabs at his responses.
med school/future doctor or not, you come off as pretty condescending in your posts.
Do you honestly believe that Tasteless, a Starcraft BW professional player, does not know the importance of drops?
This kind of stuff is what's bothersome. Half of you say they're just entertainers, but the other half hang on every word they say.
Neither Artosis nor Tasteless were remotely close to being BW pros, no matter how many times they say it, and they weren't top amateurs.
Fine fine~ I'll rephrase it: Because Tasteless as well as Artosis were aiming to become BW pros, they looked to study the games as much as possible. Thus, they should understand the repercussions and the benefits of continuous drops. Happy now? xD
On August 11 2011 20:46 Kraznaya wrote: WARNING: THIS IS PRETTY FUCKING LONG AND KIND OF RANTY
Okay, after having my ears nearly bleed out listening to Tastosis attempt to GSL Group D on August 9th, I felt compelled to write up addressing a lot of problems I have with Tastosis casting. I’m doing this because Tastosis is a highly regarded brand name amongst foreigners, and their attempts at analysis often accepted without question by the community, despite the fact their casting is riddled with bias and errors. I understand that there are a lot of fans amongst the community who love Tastosis, not in the least because they provide “entertaining commentary” (which is subjective, so I won’t dwell upon that too much), and will dismiss this criticism out of hand. After all, Tastosis is theoretically good for ESPORTS, and hating on them is just uncool, or something. However, I feel as if blind acceptance of Tastosis casting, especially as flawed as it is, is a detriment to both the development of their improvement as casters and good analytical English casting as a whole, and so feel the need to detail the issues with their analysis.
First, I’ll address the much less important member of the pair, Tasteless. In some ways, I view Tasteless as the “custodian” of the cast, as he takes care of a lot of the menial tasks such as player introductions, play by play, and joking around about random things like critters (which I personally find grating, but a lot of people find this amusing, so more power to them and him), while Artosis attempts to do the real meaty analysis.
Tasteless doesn’t offer much at all in the way of analysis, and when he does he’s often reduced to echoing Artosis’s statements or pointing out obvious blunders by players. Tasteless’s casting is most annoying to me when he attempts to unfairly criticize what he perceives as poor play, despite the fact that his lacking skill at SC2 play and analysis put him in no position to do so. The most salient example of this, which keeps happening over and over again throughout their casts ever since MMA’s dropship style became popularized at MLG Columbus, is his constant criticism of Terran usage of medivac octodrops against Zerg after Mutalisks have popped (“I’m not sure he should be doing this, this doesn’t look like it will work…”). He has a very simplistic view with regards to the goal of the drop: to cause materiel damage to the Zerg, whether in form tech buildings, drones, hatcheries, etc. However, this is not the only way medivac drops can improve a Terran’s position in a game against Zerg. For example, if a medivac was at the other side of a map and was picked off by Zerg’s mutas attempting to harass a far flung expansion, BUT the Terran managed to move his main marine-tank army to a forward position against the Zerg and siege up, the Terran has in fact used his medivacs to great effect. It is much easier to tank push against a Zerg when you are doing multipronged harass to divert units, but Tasteless doesn’t realize this, because that requires strategic depth and thinking which he isn’t applying to the game. This is personally aggravating to me because in essence, Tasteless is criticizing players who are far better than him for doing a tactical maneuver that he doesn’t understand, and a wide swathe of the audience viewing back home willingly takes his words at face value. Talk about a step backward for helping the SC2 community understand the game.
Personally, Tasteless as a caster reminds me a lot of Fruitdealer the SC2 player. Both are highly regarded for being basically the founding member of their respective profession (Tasteless the English Starcraft caster, Fruitdealer the SC2 champion), but time has worn them down and they seem a lot less inspired in doing their jobs than they did a long time ago. In particular, Tasteless had a much better head for BW analysis than he does for SC2, and he did it at a higher level, and his most salient points in his SC2 casts are often back analogies to BW. What does that tell me? That Tasteless isn’t really putting his heart and soul into wrapping his head around the ever evolving SC2 scene, and he’s coasting on prior reputation and experience to keep his seat warm. Throw in the rumors of constant drinking and partying in Seoul (and the obvious parallel here again), and I’d argue that Tasteless has been as disrespectful to his job as Fruitdealer has been to his (minus the blatant lying to sc2con, of course). I hope Tasteless either bucks up and starts taking his job seriously and quit to make room for a caster who actually has real respect for the SC2 scene (Wolf comes to mind).
With all that said, most of my issues with regards to Tastosis have to do with Artosis. Although probably the lesser half of the archon by reputation at the inception of GSL, Artosis has clearly superseded Tasteless in importance, due to both Tasteless’s lackadaisical attitude as detailed above, and his own dedication to attempting to provide strategic analysis. Adding that to the fact that Tasteless basically parrots Artosis’s opinion as much as possible, and it’s clear that any deep rooted issues with the cast begin and end with Artosis. While Artosis’s attempts to provide analysis are commendable, there are a gamut of issues involved.
If you have any idea at all how SC2 works, it doesn’t take any effort at all to figure out which player Artosis is rooting for when you listen to him cast a game. He always has a rooting interest, and he will relentlessly note the “brilliance” of his anointed player while harping on his “uncertainty” about the choices of his disfavored side. This was plaintively obvious in Group D, when Artosis’s totem pole of preferred players ran something to the tune of Alicia = Nada > Coca > Keen. At the inception of Keen’s first game, Artosis immediately labeled Keen as the “by far the weakest player in the group.” Now, not only is that an erroneous statement (I’ll get to Artosis’s fast eroding knowledge of the Korean scene in general later, especially with regards to players who have not been in Code S long term), but Keen just beat Coca in Code A in Code A July and did an epic ceremony to back it up to boot. Artosis continued on to criticize Keen’s strategic choices, which consisted of hellion harassment off 2 base into a marine tank timing push designed to kill Coca’s third. Now, Artosis’s criticisms may have had some validity if they were playing on a Terran favored map, but they were playing on Bel Shir Beach, home of the 30% TvZ winrate, the bane of Jinro, and a map where it is nearly impossible for Terran to secure a third against Zerg, not to mention a fourth. Keen rolled the dice on a 2 base timing because he basically had no other choice, and played a hard fought game in which he ultimately lost. Interestingly, while Tasteless had a somewhat higher opinion of Keen prior to the game, praising him at the inception as a “scrappy player,” he was soon echoing Artosis’s sentiments and nitpicking every flaw in Keen’s play, presumably due to his lack of ability to win a TvZ on Zerg Shir Beach.
Before discussing Artosis’s mangling of analyzing Keen’s next game against Alicia, we first must contrast it by looking at a game with two players that Artosis respects, Nada vs Alicia. Alicia is well known for being one of Artosis’s pets, but Nada is a BW Legend, the Genius Terran (NOT the Renaissance Terran, for the love of all that is good and holy), and commands respect. Nada did a twist on the infamous TvP 1/1/1 all in, disguising his build as a marauder expand before switching add ons to arrive at the essential components for marine, tank, and banshee production. This was a creative build by Nada, but not anything that hasn’t been attempted before (for more disguised 1/1/1 all in builds, see MKP’s final against Sase at CPL China, where he opened marine octodrop + 3 hellion runby and fake 2 rax -> reactor cancel into 1/1/1 builds).
Nevertheless, Artosis continually praised Nada on the genius of his build, holding it as an example of good creative play. This actually isn’t a problem for Artosis when viewed in and of itself, but when you contrast how he analyzes this build to a disguised build by a player he dislikes, the bias is clear.
In the loser’s match between Keen and Alicia, Keen opened with a very unusual build after having scouted Alicia on close air positions Metalopolis and seeing Alicia take 2 gas. Having opened with the standard build for a 1 rax gasless FE, Keen opted to lay down 2 more rax for a total of 3 rax no gas upon completion of his orbital. Having seen this, Artosis immediately pounced on Keen and labeled him as a “sneaky player” trying to “sneak” his way past a “much better” player in Alicia by attempting an all in. Even after Keen followed up by planting a CC (thus making it a 3 naked rax expand), Artosis continued to label his build an all in and wondered why Keen didn’t bring all his scvs when he poked with his group of marines.
3 naked rax into an expand is clearly not an all in. In order to do a marine scv all in, you need to either bitbybit with your first 2 rax and hit immediately, or go up to 5 or 6 rax like TLO famously did against Idra. In terms of similar builds, it is closest to a 2 rax pressure into expand (zatic build, used very often by Polt in the GSL Super Tournament), or the 3 gate into expand that Protosses do. In fact, 3 naked rax is in effect the exact same amount of production structures as a standard Terran 2 rax (1 reactor and 1 tech lab). The build is designed to poke and pressure your opponent, denying an expansion with bunkers if he attempts to greedily expand too early, while remaining safe against all forms of pressure so that you yourself can take an expansion.
Why did Keen opt for this unusual 3 naked rax into expansion? Because he made a calculated read based on his scouting, opponent, and map. The game was played on Metalopolis close air positions, spots ideal for void ray play, a strong build against 1 rax gasless FE. Alicia is well known for void ray all ins (see his game against MKP in GSL July’s Code S group stage), and Keen scouted that Alicia had gone for two gas. In that position, it was a good read by Keen to expect a 3 gate void ray all in, against which he would have been miles ahead with his multitude of marines and ready expansion. However, upon seeing the fact that he was not harassed by void rays, Keen smartly used the ability of his build to pressure fast expansions to deny Alicia’s expansion. The fact that he was able to get up the ramp and kill a few sentries and probes was just gravy, and the build would have succeeded in denying Alicia’s expansion even if that had not happened. Keen continued to show savvy reactive play when he immediately threw down an engineering bay upon seeing Alicia’s low sentry count despite the quick two gas and lack of void rays, and killed all of Alicia’s DTs and wiped the floor with him for the rest of the (short) game.
Obviously, mistakes happen during casting. In fact, while watching the game, I initially assumed the same as Artosis when I saw Keen lay down 2 raxes after his orbital finished. However, when Keen did not lay down additional raxes and continued to bank up money, it was obvious that that was a gun ho assessment and he was planning somewhat different. However, Artosis never changed his diagnosis of the situation, continuing to label Keen’s build an “all-in” long after it clearly wasn’t, and only backtracked after Keen’s initial marine poke by justifying his analysis and saying he was “transitioning out of an all in.” Given that Artosis often has very tight strategic reads on positions, particularly in games with players he likes, such as Nada vs Alicia, I feel like his misanalysis was colored by his biases against Keen and toward Alicia, and his preconceived notions of Keen as a player, something that’s backed up by the rather unequal vocabulary that he uses to describe the two. Thus, with Artosis, the root of his misanalysis while casting generally comes from his biases. His biases, in turn, are often a product of his ignorance about players, especially new players just beginning to make a splash on the scene.
And that’s the last fault of Tastosis. They no longer have any finger on the pulse of the Korean SC2 scene, on what is going on the Korean ladder and who’s making a name for himself in Code A, GSTL, or even Korean Iccup Weeklys. Back in the Open Seasons, this was much more excusable, given the less structured nature of the scene and lesser expectations for good reporting. Now, though, we have people like Wolf (note: yes, Wolf has his own biases and misanalyses, but that’s another story for another day) giving us inside info on the inner workings of FXO-fOu, and all their practice partners and ladder opponents (which cover the entire scene). Coupled with the rather astounding lack of knowledge that Tastosis have of what’s going on in tournaments below Code S (I’m pretty certain that I watch more Korean SC2 games than they do at this point, and that’s part of their job), and you have casters with flawed impressions of what’s actually going on in the scene. This puts a hamper on their analysis, and makes their impressions of the metagame feel very dated as a result. Add that to the fact that Artosis tends to do a much better analyzing players who he knows and isn’t biased against, and you have a real cause for improvement in their casting.
This isn’t to say Artosis hasn’t improved at all since GSL’s inception. In fact, his biases used to be much more blatant, and I often had to mute the cast whenever a zerg was playing due to ridiculously one sided nature of his casts. However, Artosis showed commendable dedication toward improving his casting by switching to Protoss so he could have a less biased perspective on the metagame. I hope that he takes these criticisms about bias and lack of metagame knowledge hampering his analysis with the same amount of heart.
Inb4 tl;dr, YOU’RE RUINING ESPORTS, etc.
First, I'd state that you are of course entitled to your own opinions and your arguments holds validity to the extent that you are showing your opinions via your observations. However, I would argue that certain parts of your claims are somewhat misleading to the readers.
Let's start with the first point regarding Tasteless: you yourself highlight the fact that Tasteless is a "custodian" role, a.k.a. the play-by-play guy. With this point now highlighted, let's look at your arguments: In terms of the "parroting Artosis" or "pointing out blatantly obvious mistakes", he is, once again, a play-by-play caster. His role is to simply show what is going on. This casting part is integral. Even though you or I, a hardcore member of the community, may not need it, overall his play-by-play style needs to exist just as much as Artosis' role as an analyst. Football, soccer, Starcraft BW, majority of the 'casting duo' usually stays in this casting duo style.
Tasteless, in your point regarding MLG Columbus and MMA's dropship playstyle, he mentioned the points where he makes because he himself is a player and he has played the game to the extent of the metagame. Do you honestly believe that Tasteless, a Starcraft BW professional player, does not know the importance of drops? Why the drops are done? Drops were even more important and fragile back in Brood War in T v Z because they were scourges literally flying everywhere 1.5 times faster than the dropships, killing them whenever possible. To the regular viewers, they simply see drops as 'damage must be done to be paid off', so Tasteless, in my opinion, tones down his play-by-play casting to the level of the viewer.
Let's make more direct comparisons to that of Starcraft BW since they are both E-sport games that are broadcasted fairly well.
Starcraft BW in Korea consist of 3 commentators: 1 play-by-play and 2 analysts. This style is used, but the Korean majority never criticize the 'play-by-play' commentator. Why? Because he does what he needs to do in his job description: mention what is happening. Why should he analyze? And let's say he does analyze: then he is simply hurting the 'flow' of the casting trio, and thus should actually try to avoid analyzing if possible.
*Your argument of the point of "Tasteless is criticizing players who are far better than him for doing a tactical maneuver that he doesn’t understand, and a wide swathe of the audience viewing back home willingly takes his words at face value. Talk about a step backward for helping the SC2 community understand the game." makes me want to point out that you yourself are doing the same thing. Please post your credentials and show that you are much better than Tasteless before you criticize him. You stating is saying that we the viewers should also not criticize players whenever we post on the LR Forums. Of course, the refutation might be, "oh but it's on live", well the internet is read daily and I'm certain that there are many who do read through the Live reports, so then in that case, we as well should never criticize or mention our opinions in the same sense.
*Then your analysis of Tasteless not having the same 'passion' for Starcraft 2. Perhaps this is true, perhaps this is not. We will never know until Tasteless himself informs us. But what we do know is that he is passionate about casting, he is passionate about E-sports, and he is simply not just 'cruising' through the fame that he has carried in the past just as Fruitdealer is. How do we know this? Because he still tries his best to fit his role as a play-by-play caster.
Another point that we should look at: "Artosis has clearly superseded Tasteless in importance, due to both Tasteless’s lackadaisical attitude as detailed above, and his own dedication to attempting to provide strategic analysis."
*To you, as a hardcore member of the community, may argue this that Artosis "clearly superseded" Tasteless. Why? Because we, as hardcore members of the community, simply want analysis to learn and get better at the game. But I would once again argue that Artosis is doing his job as an analyst and that Tasteless is doing his job as a play-by-play commentator. So in no way has Artosis "clearly supersede" Tasteless in any sense. They are both just doing their roles. Tasteless "parroting Artosis" is, a point to you, maybe a mistake that Tasteless occasionally does as this goes a little above that of his role, but I could also make a counterargument that he dumbs down Artosis' analysis to simpler ways and repetition of certain things never hurts to help increase the viewers' knowledge. It may annoy some people, but it will never hurt the learning, which is what Artosis' role is for.
Now let's look at your points regarding Artosis. I will once again give a point to your argument: Artosis is clearly passionate and very biased in his casts. The most infamous example is that of Nestea vs SCFou game 5 where he was literally screaming his head off for the older veteran to win. But let's look at your criticisms. First your mention of the Keen vs Coca game. Do you know why Keen is currently at the fame that he is? It is because of his ceremonies. He plays occasionally brilliant games and his attitude is certainly entertaining to watch, but really? Keen is not the underdog of this group? He does not have as much credentials as the rest. Coca has shown recent strong performances in the GSL Super Tourney and to Keen's credit, he has also done well in the Code A's, but it is hard to see from an objective point of view as Keen not being an underdog. Alicia has shown strong games in Code A, and NaDa is once again, just as in Starcraft 1, the most consistent player around. So, once again, hard to not see Keen as an underdog compared to the rest. Perhaps not the best wording from Artosis for calling Keen a "scrub" or a "sneaky player" but he is kind of a human being... I guess he should always think about 30 seconds before saying something just like how we make posts on forums right? Of course, this might be a case if Artosis did it every time, but for the most part, Artosis criticizes with evidence behind his harsh criticisms. TheBest? Uhh Banshee control was slightly sad to watch? BitbyBit? Please don't start on this point. There's plenty of evidence of Artosis being too harsh, but for the most part, at least he has evidence behind it.
*Then the next part of the 3 naked rax is not an all-in. Korean servers are infamous for doing this and it being an all-in. It's hard to not see this build in a server where aggression is famous for and it's a best of 1 and not first think, of it's an all-in. At the situations where Artosis found himself in, and from his previous games he casted and his experience on the Korean Ladder, in my opinion, Artosis certainly had enough justification to call it an all-in at the time he did. So to simply assume this as lack of understanding of the game is kind of iffy. And he would mention that he 'transitioned out of the all-in' and at that point, it was true. From a look at it, it was an all-in. Artosis mentioned that Keen was even on SCVs to that of Alicia's. What does that reveal? He used his economy for an army, and spent no time on SCVs. That shows an 'all-in'.
Another fact to note is that Artosis sees something different from us the viewers. He can see what the players click, where they are looking at, and what units they are producing etc. That's why he has mentioned that Clide was the best player in the world: He was playing like the current BW players back a few seasons ago and had the mechanics just like that of BW Players. So I would argue back that it's not Artosis' bias, but rather his observations that are different from that of the viewers that has him mentioning these views.
So while there are certainly big issues with biased commentary, but at least Artosis can justfiy his bias and can, in his analysis, actually analyze.
Your final point regarding them being 'out of loop of the Korean scene'. I'd once again give a point to you: they both have been busy for quite some time casting IPLs, GSLs, MLGs, etc. Yet I would once again make a counterargument that their constant tournament castings and their dedication to their job (perhaps not the game) allows them to learn and give good commentary. They at least admit when they don't know a build rather than say that they know what's going on. I guess I'm just confused that you aren't jumping on this point about Tastosis if your final argument is that they seem so out of loop in terms of their metagame understanding.
Final note: please don't use ad hominem arguments...I mean really? Tasteless going out partying is hurting his job? He has done casting for quite some time even before GSL, so I highly doubt that he suddenly thought he could party and give up his job out of nowhere.
tl;dr: Chill out, they're doing fine. Besides your arguments are very nitpicky.
UTL, thank you for your post. It's rare that I can agree to disagree with people on the Internet, but you bring up a lot of legitimate counterpoints to the discussion which I can respect.
Regarding Tasteless: Yes, he is the play by play caster and the "jokes person" on the cast. I have no problem with this. In fact, that's everything I want him to be. My wording on these tasks may have been a little harsh in the post ("menial tasks," etc.), but I have no problem with Tasteless fulfilling these duties if he doesn't want to steep himself into analysis. The problems with Tasteless are twofold: he sometimes attempts to do analysis, and when he does, he does it badly, and his excitement and enthusiasm for the game often seems forced or misplaced. If Tasteless didn't attempt to do analysis, he wouldn't be making the egregious mistakes that open himself to criticism. If Tasteless is truly attempting to "dumb down the game" for newbies, then he shouldn't be blatantly incorrect comments! He should instead be offering relevant advice that is useful (Nestea is producing a lot of drones to achieve full saturation of his mineral lines, that will really help his economy, etc.). Instead, he's trying to call player tactics bad because of his lack of understanding of the SC2 metagame.
Also, my comment on Artosis passing Tasteless was based on TL forum regard for each over the course of the last year.
Regarding Artosis: You know, it's funny... but TheBest is probably a much better player than Artosis gives him credit for. TheBest has eliminated MKP from ICCup Korean weeklies, and is in the top 5 of the FXO-fou house rankings. Yet... Artosis gives viewers the impression that TheBest is a player, mostly because he literally only has three games in the Ro8 of the Super Tournament against MKP to judge him on. In fact, TheBest is a pretty good example of what's wrong with Artosis's analysis, not what's right: he has a distorted view of the Korean scene because he only sees what goes on in the games he casts in Code S.
Also, it's pretty strange that you're claiming that there's an all in that exists on the Korean server of 3 naked rax with scv pull against Protoss. I've never heard of or seen this before. Marine scv all ins against Protoss consist of at least 5 raxes.
In regards to your response to Tasteless, while he does make incorrect statements, I don't believe he makes them all the time. Once again, he may or may not be as knowledgeable as Artosis, but from what I've seen from Tasteless in the past and because he knows how to study the game, I'll give him some leeway and say he does make mistakes and sometimes he does do weird things.
In regards to Artosis: he does address TheBest on State of the Game. He stated that he heard from the FXO crew that TheBest plays verbatim: "Sick macro games" during practice and he and NoNy acknowledge that because TheBest knows he just has to win a Best of 3, they cheese. But from the games that Artosis has casted and has seen, (can't see everything after all~) he has to say that TheBest is pretty bad in terms of playing in the GSL. I mean...strafing a Banshee on top of marines while they are shooting is pretty.....questionable. So while I am giving a point to you, another way of looking at it is that Artosis cannot access all the replays that every player has and cannot watch every game. He certainly tries, but it's hard for him. This is more an appeal to him being a person with a limited amount of time, but he has also mentioned that to his knowledge, that there are almost no other tournaments other than the GSL in Korea. So once again, a point to you in regards to him maybe not being able to access everything because he does not know them.
Also, the all in does exist >.> I was sitting next to a friend of mine (silver league so take it with a grain of salt) and he got rushed like that in a T v P. (Another grain of salt: he plays Z...) However, I will admit I was literally laughing my ass off while this was happening because he was typing the sickest cuss words in the world while getting all-ined like this.
Do you honestly believe that Tasteless, a Starcraft BW professional player, does not know the importance of drops?
This kind of stuff is what's bothersome. Half of you say they're just entertainers, but the other half hang on every word they say.
Neither Artosis nor Tasteless were remotely close to being BW pros, no matter how many times they say it, and they weren't top amateurs.
This ~~ But honestly tasteless deterioration as a caster started even before sc2 came out, at some point during the bw GSLs can't remember when he just seemed to stop putting any time or effort at all into his job beside actually showing up for casts. He didn't know which builds were "in" or which players were hot and so on. As a result he would look at a player performing a newly popularised tactical maneuver and scream "this is a terrible decision, he going to lose the game because of it!!" And when the player won and did the same thing again in the next set he would yet again repeat "Didnt he learn anything last time, those units are going to die!..." So yeah, "lost his passion" seems like a fairly succint way of putting it to me.
I think it's sort of a catch 22 situation. Either you're nto good enough to understand and tastosis will offer much more insight than you can, and once you get good enough you don't really need casters, so having casters with actual banter and chemistry is pretty much what you're looking for.
Not sure how healthy a thread is that is essentially filled with caster bashing (not the OP, but everyone's comments), but my 2 cents:
I'd honestly have to agree with the OP, I couldn't stand artosis in any of the nestea games from last season. "you have to attack him at 100 or 200 supply" --why? Is the game different because the player you're casting is really really good? And during the finals not a single word of analysis was spoken. Just praise that he went mutas or rejoicement that the overseer push was perfectly calculated rather than explain why it is great... it's just annoying to listen too and it results in people not knowing the correct time to go mutas, or the correct time to do a tier 1 push with tier 2 upgrades so I hit people on the ladder who go 2 hatch straight to mutas and expect to win.
Holy shit man, I was reading this and I was basically nodding my head because I agree 100% on all the points you made. I have always been very curious how people like Tastosis so much. They are not even close to best casters out there. Only time when Tastosis were acceptable was during MLG Columbus where they didn't throw around the stupid "jokes" that they normally do during GSL.
Good thing that someone finally said what must be said.
I've read through the OP as well as most of the post, however the main argument I am seeing is just hypocritical nip-picking. I know this phrase has been repeated constantly in this thread, but from my perspective I just see that your complaining about how the casting pair can improve, however if one of your arguments is that because of there skill there analysis is sometimes in-accurate, then what position are you in to comment on how they can improve as casters? have you been casting for 5years? do you know what it's like? I know how this can be seen as an attack on you however I just think instead of providing "constructive criticism" you are just slating 2 of the most well respected casters in sc2. As well as this, I also think your assumptions of tasteless isn't a good player and is the "lesser" of the pair to be ridiculous. What do you know about what Nick does in his spare time? Do you watch him play 24/7? Have some respect for people just doing there job and doing a good one at that, everyone makes mistakes and some of the ones you have stated cannot even be seen as "mistakes" from a casters POV, just variations on a very expansive game.