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I agree with OP's points, but I'm still more entertained by Tastosis than any other caster couple.
In the first GSL seasons artosis was really good and sharp, with spot on analysis, while it was clear tasteless didn't knew anything about starcraft 2. I didn't liked tasteless at that point.
Then they both were good for a long period, with tasteless finally knowing stuff about sc2, so it worked very well.
Then they stopped casting code A, then they stopped casting GSTL, then they even missed some code S days, so the situation now is that they don't have a clue about the rising players (see Keen), they don't know the player's styles, they don't know much about new builds and trends. It seems they're not watching the GSL when they're not casting it (at least for the majority of the time)
When they were casting everything they could talk about everything, knowing what they were talking about, they knew all the players. It's not the case anymore sadly.
And now tasteless is a lot more comfortable than before and he often talk on top of artosis or just cut him to say random, basic things, and I hate this, because often he just cuts an interesting sentence by artosis to just say some "fill time"/basic/play by play phrase.
Despite all that I'm still angry when they're not casting and I like them, but it seems they're not as good at their job than they were some months ago. They're very good at making their random talk interesting and funny.
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On August 13 2011 01:30 OneOther wrote:
Usually not a fan of these threads, but your points are actually valid for the most part. People assume such defensive positions against criticisms on Tasteless and Artosis, it's not very productive at all. The OP's suggestions could help improve the commentators, and each point had sound reasoning and evidence.
I have been a fan of Artosis' casting for a long time, especially back in the Brood War days. Despite some first-hand experiences of his bad manner online, I have always respected his casting. For me, Artosis' bias does not bother me as much as Tasteless' simple incapability. I view Tasteless as the main problem, not Artosis. I don't find Tasteless' jokes funny, his analysis are often so wrong, his exaggerations are tiresome, and his understanding of the game is simply lacking. I have always felt this way about him since Brood War. I like him as a person, especially for his hard work for the community, but I honestly have no idea why he is regarded so high in terms of commentating. He has never been good.
Artosis often has to agree with Tasteless' dumb analysis because he doesn't want to make him look stupid. This hampers their commentating as a duo.
EDIT: In my opinion, Chill is the best commentator around. He has the ideal balance of analysis, humor and other intangibles. (His jokes are actually funny/witty, unlike Tasteless and Artosis making critter jokes - hated listening to those 'tasteless' lines for a long time now) Guys like Chill and Day9 can't even be compared to Tasteless, and I hope there will be more commentators like them in the future for our community.
I'm happy to see someone else make the point I am about to.
Tasteless is the problem. Every time a Kpop girl appears on screen he makes some dumb joke about how he wants to marry her and even after the joke has died he continues on with "i actually decide who i want to spend the rest of my life with by looking at 3 second clips at the start of starcraft 2 games". This is just one example of many a lame jokes, and while this issue is certainly subjective, I am not the only one to feel that way, yearning for more professionalism in his casting.
He constantly mis-analyzes situations and it's actually amazing how Artosis can time and time again come up with phrases that don't let Tasteless look like the fool he is in that moment.
It's actually come to a point where they almost NEVER disagree with eachother and do their best to find a way to make every one but the most obvious of blunders seem intentional. Now is leaving these mistakes unrectified good or bad? I don't think every single mistake should be corrected, because that'd take up the majority of casting time, but I do wish that in response to Tasteless' "Oh my god, Player X is completely falling apart", Artosis would - in case Tasteless is actually wrong - more often say "Well I think that he's actually ahead at the moment" instead of "Yeah those blue flame hellions certainly killed quite a few units" and then trying to mix in more unrelated correct analyses to elevate the level of the cast.
Tasteless obviously doesn't have his heart in Starcraft 2 like he did in BW. The only analogies we ever hear out of him are in relation to BroodWar. When asked what he does in his spare-time it comes down to playing video games that aren't SC2 and going out partying and then "some voice acting stuff" almost as an afterthought.
When Tasteless says "I'm gonna go home and play with THIS build", do you really believe him? Artosis constantly talks about watching VODs and how he's trying to figure out the current meta-game in Korea. The only thing we really hear from Tasteless in this regard is that he likes to do the Tasteless build on this map. Oh and he likes Cloak Banshee openers in TvT.
I don't want to say Tasteless needs to stop casting, because he's obviously very experienced at what he does but I think that
1) The stupid jokes need to stop
Can you even imagine a professional sports caster from another sport talking about going on a date with Kerrigan?
2) The repeating of Artosis needs to stop
try and listen for that, in every cast there's at least 5 occasions of Tasteless repeating Artosis' exact words with a slightly exaggerated inflection just seconds after
3) He needs to put more work into SC2
the Korean casters are all highly ranked Masters players and put their heart and soul into casting SC2, whereas for Tasteless it seems more like a nice hobby that he does on the side.
I would'nt have such a big problem with his casting if he were actually mature about reacting to criticism. But instead we just hear the sarcastic "All the angry forum nerds are saying "Tasteless has lost his passion" and "You're ruining Esports" hahahahaha".
Also:
Who do Tastosis think they are, cricizing a coach's decision who to send out in GSTL, when they don't even fucking recognize so many Korean players before the producers blend in their name? It's actually kind of sad when I recognize many more players than Tastosis in a single GSTL match, even though I'm a college student, for whom SC2 is just a hobby. And it's not even an issue for them, they say "Well ... we don't actually know all of the korean pros by face".
Well, you should. It's your job.
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On August 23 2011 22:45 MrCon wrote:
I agree with OP's points, but I'm still more entertained by Tastosis than any other caster couple.
In the first GSL seasons artosis was really good and sharp, with spot on analysis, while it was clear tasteless didn't knew anything about starcraft 2. I didn't liked tasteless at that point.
Then they both were good for a long period, with tasteless finally knowing stuff about sc2, so it worked very well.
Then they stopped casting code A, then they stopped casting GSTL, then they even missed some code S days, so the situation now is that they don't have a clue about the rising players (see Keen), they don't know the player's styles, they don't know much about new builds and trends. It seems they're not watching the GSL when they're not casting it (at least for the majority of the time)
When they were casting everything they could talk about everything, knowing what they were talking about, they knew all the players. It's not the case anymore sadly.
And now tasteless is a lot more comfortable than before and he often talk on top of artosis or just cut him to say random, basic things, and I hate this, because often he just cuts an interesting sentence by artosis to just say some "fill time"/basic/play by play phrase.
Despite all that I'm still angry when they're not casting and I like them, but it seems they're not as good at their job than they were some months ago. They're very good at making their random talk interesting and funny.
I agree on this post 100%
The last game was Genius vs Virus, and Genius lost to a 1-1-1 push, which can be only held with a fast Nexus (1 Gate, see Strategy forum for that) and the casting archon was criticizing Genius for playing greedy, while that was the only build he could do on that map.
At the same time, i don't know any other casters that can compare to them (except for Day9-DJ Wheat combo i guess).
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I agree with this blog, I still think tastosis is among the best casting duo, but pointing out their flaws so they can improve is always a GOOD thing for e-sports. Tasteless doesn't need to be GM to cast, but obviously being so would add more to the cast. A lot of the problems pointed out are true but very hard to correct (in terms of correctly analyzing play). It's easy to watch a game carefully as an observer but when you're forced to verbally describe what is happening in an entertaining manner in a real-time game to an audience it becomes much easier to mis-analyze what is occuring. There is far less time to analyze what a player is doing at such a deep level and for most people the level of analysis provided is good enough. I agree though that if they could provide even higher level analysis it would be awesome.
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I recall nony saying his teammates on estro would frequently laugh at the korean BW commentators because their analysis of whats going on is often wrong. The commentators are often ex-BW pros so I think its pretty ridiculous to nitpick on attempts at indepth strategy analysis. Its impossible to know whats going on and whats the plan. Only the player and his teammates most likely know. I still see this is endless nitpicking
I guess your options are
1) never ever attempt to give insight
or 2) attempt to give insight and expect nerds to make threads analyzing your impromptu analysis
Although its very rare, artosis is the only commentator who ever says anything where I say to myself "wow, i didn't think of that" or "wow, i have never thought about that before"
I never feel enlightened with any caster, not even day9. Its usually repeating shit i've heard a thousand times or insight on strategy i've had on my own. I think this is why I'm significantly less critical on commentators. I don't go into every single game expecting artosis to blow my fucking mind or to be 100% correct. Its usually impossible to even be correct because there is rarely objective truth in terms of RTS strategy of what is best and what isn't. its all opinion generally
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I really appreciate someone giving a thought out criticism that actually cites examples, especially towards people who receive almost none.
I think it's about time someone explains how djwheat could improve, he bafflingly receives no criticism.
And less so but still somewhat importantly, day9, whose commentary has really diminished in quality over time, imo.
That said I don't think sc2 has a single commentator that understands the game nearly as well as a pro does. Artosis comes closest, but when I listen to idra commentate you can tell he knows what's going through the players' head and he knows how things will likely turn out. It's unfortunate that a person who spends a lot of time commentating would just be losing playing time, making their analysis worse, so we've got no one with pro player knowledge and understanding.
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On August 23 2011 23:12 Montana[TK] wrote:
1) The stupid jokes need to stop
Can you even imagine a professional sports caster from another sport talking about going on a date with Kerrigan?
I think it's hilarious when John Madden used to talk about food and turduckens.
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Just fyi, Artosis watches the Korean Weeklies, he's one of our longest running fans....
Of all the major misconceptions in Starcraft this one is the worst in my opinion:
Conception: Casting is easy, quick, and keeping up on every metagame shift ever is also easy
Reality: Casting is hard as hell, consumes a TON of time, and keeping up on even one region's metagame shifts is borderline impossible in today's current scene.
I have had the pleasure of meeting Tasteless, and saying he is "lost his passion" or whatever is insane. You know why he knew more about BW then SC2? He played the game for 12 years and there was only one region (which has very limited amount of games) you had to keep track of. Starcraft has only been out a bit over a year, the game has changed about 100 times (between patches and style shifts), and there is 5-6 major regions you have to pay attention to with all different style.
Edit: Also for the Artosis is biased thing, watch a UFC broadcast. Joe Rogan is the worst offender pretty much ever of this, and the UFC is the fastest growing sport in the world. It apparently is not a huge issue, and much like you ONLY the hardcore hardcore MMA (in your case SC) fans complain about it, no one else gives a shit.
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I agree with many of the sentiments in this blog. Unfortunately, all the other casters are simply worse. They are light on analysis, humor, and credibility. With Tastosis, you are truly taking the good with the bad. (Mostly good though)
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Just to add, people seem to forget or aren't around long enough to know that Tasteless got a lot of criticism during broodwar, too.
I dug up this and this thread.
The first one is a random live report thread for a day that tasteless actually didn't cast, but while bashing on the horrible SDM + random guy duo, Tasteless came up, too.
For example:
On July 26 2009 18:43 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2009 18:38 Patriot.dlk wrote:On July 26 2009 18:33 Manifesto7 wrote:
@ integral: It isn't too critical. I think it is embarrassing that Tasteless seems to not know what goes on in the pro scene.
--
Looks like the new guy is good at figuring out colours. I haven't really noticed or thought about this. Can you give an example of tasteless being clueless etc He is a nice guy, but what does he tell you in his casts that you don't already know? In addition, what does he not tell you in the casts that you do already know. I think it is pretty obvious by now that Tasteless, for as much love as he gets for going over there, does not keep up on what is going on in pro starcraft.
Feel free to skim it for fun, people suggesting that Artasteless (yes) would be a great duo ... 
The second one is actually a thread about commentators from 2 years ago and it is the same discussion people are having right now.
On October 03 2009 14:11 nebffa wrote:
I used to think Tasteless was really good but after watching a lot of GOM with him and SDM I realise they simply talk a lot about non-game related stuff and don't do that much analysis
On October 03 2009 14:20 selboN wrote:
If you want to here someone talk a lot, watch Husky. He's entertaining, depends how much depth you want.. He's probably only a C-ish player.
On October 03 2009 14:25 251 wrote:
Day[9] is the best. If he made commentary vods, I wouldn't watch anything else
On October 03 2009 14:40 EvilTeletubby wrote:This. If you're looking for dry, very analytical, in-depth game knowledge, Chill is spectacular.
On October 03 2009 14:46 RoieTRS wrote:
Tasteless and sdm have become, what seems like to me, the equivalent of a fighting game commentator that really doesn't talk about the game, and more on other stuff unless they see a big moment.
On October 03 2009 14:54 Whiplash wrote:
I'd rather listen to Tasteless/SDM over any other commentator any day they are by far the most entertaining.
Nothing changed, except maybe that day9's approval rate as the strategic mastermind dropped from 100% to 95%. 
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i'd rather be entertained by tastosis and not know who random gstl players are than listen to two robots with no personality
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I'm not gonna read any of the other comments since I'm pretty sure I know whats bound to be in there but after reading the OP I gotta admit I totally agree and of course people are bound to take what they say as truth because of there popularity but regardless your right about the biases they have (and most have) and that's something they should work on. I think Dan will improve over time but don't think the same of Nick, although I do think Nick's a funny guy which makes up for his lack of knowledge. Just my two cents and either way I still like them as a casting duo but I haven't taken there words as pure truth before either, very entertaining nonetheless.
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On August 24 2011 03:34 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Just fyi, Artosis watches the Korean Weeklies, he's one of our longest running fans....
Of all the major misconceptions in Starcraft this one is the worst in my opinion:
Conception: Casting is easy, quick, and keeping up on every metagame shift ever is also easy
Reality: Casting is hard as hell, consumes a TON of time, and keeping up on even one region's metagame shifts is borderline impossible in today's current scene.
I have had the pleasure of meeting Tasteless, and saying he is "lost his passion" or whatever is insane. You know why he knew more about BW then SC2? He played the game for 12 years and there was only one region (which has very limited amount of games) you had to keep track of. Starcraft has only been out a bit over a year, the game has changed about 100 times (between patches and style shifts), and there is 5-6 major regions you have to pay attention to with all different style.
Edit: Also for the Artosis is biased thing, watch a UFC broadcast. Joe Rogan is the worst offender pretty much ever of this, and the UFC is the fastest growing sport in the world. It apparently is not a huge issue, and much like you ONLY the hardcore hardcore MMA (in your case SC) fans complain about it, no one else gives a shit.
for those of us who don't cast regularly, perhaps you could explain exactly what it is that takes so much time? the stuff i can think of only applies to independent casters (like encoding, setting up equipment et cetera) whereas tastetosis has the whole GSL production crew.
also, they don't need to know or care about EU/NA metagame, since their primary job is clearly to cast the GSL. furthermore, the 1/1/1 is a pretty prevalent TvP issue that is constantly being debated about in korea (apparently even on sc2 talk shows), so them not knowing what the proper counters are is pretty silly.
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On August 24 2011 10:29 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 03:34 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Just fyi, Artosis watches the Korean Weeklies, he's one of our longest running fans....
Of all the major misconceptions in Starcraft this one is the worst in my opinion:
Conception: Casting is easy, quick, and keeping up on every metagame shift ever is also easy
Reality: Casting is hard as hell, consumes a TON of time, and keeping up on even one region's metagame shifts is borderline impossible in today's current scene.
I have had the pleasure of meeting Tasteless, and saying he is "lost his passion" or whatever is insane. You know why he knew more about BW then SC2? He played the game for 12 years and there was only one region (which has very limited amount of games) you had to keep track of. Starcraft has only been out a bit over a year, the game has changed about 100 times (between patches and style shifts), and there is 5-6 major regions you have to pay attention to with all different style.
Edit: Also for the Artosis is biased thing, watch a UFC broadcast. Joe Rogan is the worst offender pretty much ever of this, and the UFC is the fastest growing sport in the world. It apparently is not a huge issue, and much like you ONLY the hardcore hardcore MMA (in your case SC) fans complain about it, no one else gives a shit. for those of us who don't cast regularly, perhaps you could explain exactly what it is that takes so much time? the stuff i can think of only applies to independent casters (like encoding, setting up equipment et cetera) whereas tastetosis has the whole GSL production crew. also, they don't need to know or care about EU/NA metagame, since their primary job is clearly to cast the GSL. furthermore, the 1/1/1 is a pretty prevalent TvP issue that is constantly being debated about in korea (apparently even on sc2 talk shows), so them not knowing what the proper counters are is pretty silly.
You don't just roll out of bed and cast GSL. There's like 100 things a day you have to do (hair, makeup, etc). The reason you never know this is because it's behind the scenes. The scale of a GSL cast is up there with normal tv productions. Just because they aren't encoding video does not mean they prance in and go.
How can you say it's silly not to know the counters when the debate is if there is any counters?
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Tasteless' role is similar to DJWheat's.' It's funny because when Nick did his first cast... it was with DJWheat at WCG. Bit of a role reversal when you add Artosis into the mix. I guess they figure someone has to do it.
Honestly, it isn't that hard to be unbiased, but viewers might find it boring. Part of your job as a sportscaster and play-by-play announcer is to sell whatever it is you are selling. Rogan does it pretty well. That's not to say you won't hear people talking shit about him all the time because they do.
All about the hype. In reality, you don't have to rant about how you are the biggest fan of such and such. Base it off stats.
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On August 24 2011 12:01 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 10:29 rauk wrote:On August 24 2011 03:34 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Just fyi, Artosis watches the Korean Weeklies, he's one of our longest running fans....
Of all the major misconceptions in Starcraft this one is the worst in my opinion:
Conception: Casting is easy, quick, and keeping up on every metagame shift ever is also easy
Reality: Casting is hard as hell, consumes a TON of time, and keeping up on even one region's metagame shifts is borderline impossible in today's current scene.
I have had the pleasure of meeting Tasteless, and saying he is "lost his passion" or whatever is insane. You know why he knew more about BW then SC2? He played the game for 12 years and there was only one region (which has very limited amount of games) you had to keep track of. Starcraft has only been out a bit over a year, the game has changed about 100 times (between patches and style shifts), and there is 5-6 major regions you have to pay attention to with all different style.
Edit: Also for the Artosis is biased thing, watch a UFC broadcast. Joe Rogan is the worst offender pretty much ever of this, and the UFC is the fastest growing sport in the world. It apparently is not a huge issue, and much like you ONLY the hardcore hardcore MMA (in your case SC) fans complain about it, no one else gives a shit. for those of us who don't cast regularly, perhaps you could explain exactly what it is that takes so much time? the stuff i can think of only applies to independent casters (like encoding, setting up equipment et cetera) whereas tastetosis has the whole GSL production crew. also, they don't need to know or care about EU/NA metagame, since their primary job is clearly to cast the GSL. furthermore, the 1/1/1 is a pretty prevalent TvP issue that is constantly being debated about in korea (apparently even on sc2 talk shows), so them not knowing what the proper counters are is pretty silly. You don't just roll out of bed and cast GSL. There's like 100 things a day you have to do (hair, makeup, etc). The reason you never know this is because it's behind the scenes. The scale of a GSL cast is up there with normal tv productions. Just because they aren't encoding video does not mean they prance in and go. How can you say it's silly not to know the counters when the debate is if there is any counters?
hair makeup etc is exactly what i'm referring to when i say tastetosis has the GSL production crew to take care of things. i find it difficult to believe that spending 6 hours in the makeup room is what prevents them from recognizing the players in the tournament they're supposed to cast. presumably they still have use of their eyes and brain and can study or read up, or even have an intern show them flash cards or read out loud to them.
i'd say it's silly that artosis pushes a build as a counter that has been proven by better players than he as unviable.
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I agree with the OP's points, however I feel like Tastosis are better than most other casters, and their casting, while not perfect, is more consistently tolerable than most other english casters today.
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I don't find other casting combinations that fun to listen to really. Its weird. To not fall asleep, I need to hear some casting, but often I am not entertained by the casting at all. Tastosis are my favourite followed by Bitterdam then DayJwheat. I love DayJwheat because they can make things sound exciting without being completely wrong about everything (IGN commentators). Day 9 has the fundamentals required of any caster and would be even better if his analysis were slightly more in depth. He is also an excellent observer which is something other casters are pretty bad at.
I love Bitterdam because of the honesty about everything. Their analysis is very good as well and they have lovely voices. I especially love Bitter's 'I have no idea what's going on' because it tells me that something which is not immediately obvious is happening. I hate hearing 'and the Terran is going to poke with the marines, just to see what's going on. Oh he stims and wins. gg guess Protoss is too greedy.'
I love Tastosis the most because they still give the best analysis bar none, have best chemistry, and make the cast super enjoyable to listen to. I am willing to listen to slightly underwhelming games such as Keen vs Coca BECAUSE Tastosis are casting it. Artosis still has the best knowledge of all the casters because his analysis is the most ballzy. What I mean by this is that with Artosis, he isn't going to say 'he is getting the reactor on his barracks so he can switch it with the factory to make hellions,' he is going to be much more insightful, and comment on how it will work against his opponent's build. As for Tasteless, he was the person that introduced me to Starcraft pro gaming so I may be biased, but he is my favourite caster for Starcraft in general. His jokes are really funny and I'm sure he is a very skilled player himself.
Everyone is saying how it doesn't seem like he plays at all and all that, but if Kellymilkies is to be believed, Tasteless is masters on Korea. I just think his casting style has changed so much ever since he started dual casting instead of solo casting. You could tell with SuperDanielMan and Lilsusie that he was lowering the amount of analysis he was doing compared to his first season and that was in BW, where you certainly had no case at all to deny his knowledge.
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The more time you spend on screen the greater the odds that you'll eventually screw up, so I can accept that it happens from time to time. Actually, I also enjoy casting by less knowledgeable casters too, so I guess it shouldn't be too surprising that I'm lenient with Artosis on this. And with the amount of time they spend casting, it's not surprising Tasteless talks a lot about unrelated stuff. I can't say I enjoy it, but I have no idea how they can actually still have anything to talk about. I certainly couldn't do it.
Really, the only real problem I've noticed with Tastosis is that they seem to be developing a hostility with the fans. Actually, I haven't noticed that in the most recent casts, but not long ago I felt that a game couldn't pass by without them mocking the fans for being wrong, or having different opinions than them, or worse, for being right while one of them made an error. And every time Tasteless would use that whiny voice and say "No Tasteless, [something that's obviously wrong]" or "Tastosis made a mistake! How dare you not be a perfect human being!".
If I never hear that shrill "satirical" voice again, I'm more than happy with Tastosis' casts.
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To be fair tasteless had very little idea about high level bw as well which annoyed the hell out of me. Artosis to the contrary was a solid player himself who knew most ins and outs. Artosis was and is by far the best caster out there simply because he is intelligent, humorous,ironic and easy to listen to. Not one other caster meets this criteria.
I rather have him cast by himself like he used to do because every time he isnt talking the quality of the product drops.
Advice to OP - find something worthy to nitpick on, if all you got is Artosis bias - you dont get the concept. Artosis is sick homer and him being biased is a part of his charm.
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EPT
