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On July 23 2011 06:19 VAR1ABLES wrote:
Maybe IT's just me - but why is EG the bad guy again? Because they approach players? Like every other team does? I'm sure HuK talked to TL before leaving millenium so TL can't be on a high horse about this.
TLO hardly mentions the way which EG approached Puma (although it might be implied). IMO, there was hardly anything wrong with the way EG approached Puma except for the part about cultural sensitivities.
What TLO didn't like was the way EG handled the situation. Not coming up with even a short statement to quell the rumors and then blaming Milkis for the problem getting out of hand, which was IMO extremely arrogant.
ALSO:
Am i the only one who gets pissed when someone says that their twitter is personal and only reflects their opinions when just minutes before they were saying that Sirscoots' twitter was the official word of team EG. You can't have it both ways man.
Milkis does not have any responsibility to any organization, TL included. SirScoots has a responsibility to EG. Nevertheless, I do agree that twitters meant to be personal (unless you're talking about organizations' official twitters.
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bravo.
for a well-funded organization with people trained to speak, how hard is it to communicate with the player & the player's manager?
talking to only the player basically states that the player's team and the player's manager/coach are worthless.
failing to own up for your actions makes you a coward, eg.
(or are eg's representatives cutting corners because they are lazy?)
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Other than the bad PR from EG, which they really need help on, I still don't see what they did wrong with regards to Puma.
Players, coaches, etc. are always looking at players from other teams. There are always behind-the-scenes talk about joining up or whatever. Anyone who doesn't think this happens in professional sports is naive.
That said, EG respected Puma's wishes to have him talk to the coach instead of EG. What is wrong with that?
The way I see it, TSL management should have kept it quiet until it was actually official the Puma was joining EG. Once TSL management was aware of Puma's position, they should have contacted EG, not go public with it.
As far as I know, there isn't even a contract yet! All this EG bashing and TL love-fest is ridiculous.
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On July 23 2011 07:15 VAR1ABLES wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 06:46 Eurekastreet wrote:On July 23 2011 06:19 VAR1ABLES wrote:
And why are people feeling bad for TSL - you know the team that was founded when coach lee stole players from OGS - when they forced a player out, when he had not signed with EG, but simply told coach lee that he had been contacted by them.
Didn't know about that part but still, 2 wrongs make a right ? No, but the point is TSL isn't exactly a bastion of freedom and ethics that everyone thinks they are. I feel no love towards them because of how they have treated their own countrymen in the past. Show nested quote +
ALSO:
Am i the only one who gets pissed when someone says that their twitter is personal and only reflects their opinions when just minutes before they were saying that Sirscoots' twitter was the official word of team EG. You can't have it both ways man.
Why ? Sirscoots is the voice of EG (at least to me, that's the only thing I know about him - and I am probably not the only one) while milkies is the voice of...milkies (same comment). To take another parallel, when incontrol was mod on TL , if some e-drama was taking place in between TL and EG and inc tweeted about it, his opinion would always be the one defending EG - and that's how it should be, it's his job - whereas if another drama was taking place between TL and xxxx, he'd always defend TL if he thought it was right - that's his opinion. You can have it both ways, people have multiple jobs/roles/faces. If milkies was to TL what Nazgul is, then I guess the situation would be different, but as far as I know he isn't (I might be misinformed, I actually dont know if he's a free lance team member or what not, but if he is the voice of TL, then I am wrong, just let me know about it). I'm sure there's EG haters out there but don't reduce any criticism to that. If they did sthg some us judge wrong, we're entitled to discuss it (and if we don't have all the info to have a proper judgment, well, it's up to them to remedy to this....until then, it seems few mistakes were made there, why not discuss about them ?) The problem is that - to my knowledge - Incontrol's twitter isn't the official voice of EG. Neither is idras, neither is sirscoots. None of their twitters are that of EG's. They're personal. Therefore - by milkis' standard - they can't be considered as "official" and must be considered "personal." It seems to be a double standard for "translators" or other bit players in the community. They're words arent' to be considered on their personal twitters, but if it's sirscoots - whose been around for 10 years and works for EG - then his word must be the official stance of EG, not just his opinion on the matter. But maybe that's just me, i like having the same bar set for all people, regardless of what level they serve.
Well it's incidental to the whole conversation but yeah ideally you should set the same bar for all people, unfortunately the game is rigged at the start,....a bit player in the community is probably free to express his personal opinion at pretty much any time, a guy who's worked 10 years for a company and gets money at the end of each month is never gonna communicate his personal opinion on a public channel if it goes against his company's communication policy (unless he is willing to start looking for a job quickly after that)...
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I don't have a problem with EG but blaming milkis for the controversy was really stupid. EG needs to take some accountability for it's own actions.
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I don't see how EG did anything so terribly wrong, myself. If there was a contract, sure, talk to the people who have the contract.
When you want contractual arrangements with someone, you talk to the legal entity that is responsible for that person's current contract, be it a manager, team, or whatever. When there is no contract, you talk to the person you want to hire.
Imagine it this way. As an adult, you interview for a job. You impress the interviewer, and they make an offer. Would you, as a legal adult, want them to have to ask your mother's permission to hire you? No. Absolutely not. While you may respect her opinion or not, she has no legal say in the matter, and even informing her beforehand is at most a courtesy.
As to Milkis, while I understand he only translated the news originally, and he does a great service to the community as such, the fact of the matter is this: He allowed himself to be drawn in to an editorial role. Once he stopped translating and started giving opinions, even at request, he's no longer a neutral party. And coming from someone who didn't follow BW religiously, he sounded pretty biased against EG, at least on WoC.
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EG should just rename to Evil Empire. The higher ups in the organization seem like complete jerks with some of the stuff they have pulled. They don't have passion for E-Sports they just want to make as much money from it as possible.
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TLO, why so clear, concise, and awesome?
I didn't watch Weapon of Choice the other day, but it looks like I have to now. I can't believe they would attack a volunteer translator. Trying to blame the situation on Milkis? That's pathetic.
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On July 23 2011 09:14 CongoJack wrote:
EG should just rename to Evil Empire. The higher ups in the organization seem like complete jerks with some of the stuff they have pulled. They don't have passion for E-Sports they just want to make as much money from it as possible this goes for the players of EG as well.
The sponsors as a whole are also just out to make money. I've never heard anyone scream and rant about the big corporations that dump a huge prize pool on a tournament just being in it for the money. But that's what it is. Without corporate involvement, Esports wouldn't exist on the level it does. Hard to have professional gamers when nobody is paying them, and people tend to pay money to make money. Welcome to entertainment.
Yes, there are parts of the scene that legitimately just love being able to make money off of what they love, but overall, this is only possible at the end of the day because of big corporations trying to make money. Don't complain about it, be thankful for it.
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On July 23 2011 09:40 Muffinman53 wrote:
TLO, why so clear, concise, and awesome?
I didn't watch Weapon of Choice the other day, but it looks like I have to now. I can't believe they would attack a volunteer translator. Trying to blame the situation on Milkis? That's pathetic.
he wasn't blaming him for the situation. he was simply try to imply (in a non accusatory way) that the people posting these big topic articles should have some journalistic integrity and try to get the full story instead of going live to a big audience with only one side.
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On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote:
Oh man the best part about the whole EG-Puma debate was Milkis (a neutral party, translator) being attacked by the EG's Executive director on Weapon of Choice for not contacting EG about their stance, while all he did was translate (and provide an opinion on his own twitter). The hilarity in this situation is AMAZING. EG did not contact coach lee, EG did not try to explain anything, EG did literally nothing. So a translator should be responsible for EG public relations. Fail...
And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves." And that was an official topic on their own tournament...
Hypocrits.
My thoughts exactly. So true it hurts, you are a brave and proud sir Milkis
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This is being asked out of actual curiosity, not a desire to inflame: Do people actually feel that during the course of WoC, Milki's maintained an unbiased translator-only role? The impression I've gotten here is that he really is biased enough on the subject matter that it isn't entirely unreasonable that EG would hope he would get their side of the story.
Yes, he only translated, but even translation can bring with it personal bias, with or without intent. Certainly if I heard of a big news event through a biased source, I'd want to hear both sides of the story, and if the source providing the news didn't provide both sides of the story, and I recognized a level of bias, I would take the entire thing with a grain of salt.
Yes, he was continually asked for opinion and perspective. But he made it very clear what he thought was right and wrong in the situation in his opinion, and his perspective neatly coincided with his opinion.
Not saying there's anything wrong with having opinions or standing by them, but I'm just curious why people feel he should be getting "diplomatic immunity" as it were, when he didn't maintain his translation only role.
Example: If I hear something news-ish on the O'Reilly factor, you bet your ass I'm looking for the whole story later.
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the Dagon Knight4000 Posts
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote:
The hilarity in this situation is AMAZING. EG did not contact coach lee, EG did not try to explain anything, EG did literally nothing.
Look, it's pretty straightforward.
Milkis, as a disconnected third party, should take responsibility for his actions (even if they're just translations of other people's work) and make an effort to contact everyone involved in stuff he translates in his free time, just in case one of the parties involved can't string together a coherent message within eighteen hours.
By contrast, EG as an involved party in a transaction shouldn't be required to contact other parties affected by that transaction. That would be preposterous.
I can't believe how some people are finding this hard to understand, it seems cut and dry to me.
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On July 22 2011 22:44 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 22:43 Snerren wrote:
Why are people so god damn worked up about this? Headhunting and playerscalping is common in every high level sport there is. And its not like they stole Puma and he did not want to join and is beeing forced to play with EG. They gave him an offer HE took it. What's the problem? in english football its illegal for you to contact any player under contract without the consent of the team he is contracted too
keyword "contracted" puma had none
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Good on you Milkis. You're doing a great job, and I hope you continue to translate.
EG you are a great team and you do good work in the community with tournaments/content etc. However you need some help with the way you present yourselves in public. Best hire an experienced community manager/PR person.
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I just watched the latest episode of Weapon of Choice and I've read alot of the replies to this thread. I stopped watching Weapon of Choice as soon as they started attacking Milki, as I thought it was uncalled for. I do think though that EG didn't do anything wrong. Puma wasn'y under contract so that makes him by any sport I know of a free agent. I don't know alot about the SC2 community and don't pretend to but I don't think that you can blame EG for picking up Puma. I actually think people should be celebrating this and its impact on Esports. People should stop trying to attack EG, I think that after listening to Weapon of Choice that alot people saw Alex Garfield and thus EG in bad light which led to this positive situation turning into a problem. In a couple of years I think that we will look upon EG's signing of Puma as the first of many signings that will help to develop Esports. I understand many of the points I brought up have already been brought up, but I just thought I would throw in my two cents.
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On July 23 2011 05:28 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 05:22 integrity wrote:
I just wanted to say that as a fan of Mr. TLO i am very sad to see someone i respect resolve to "Team Bashing" on matters that have nothing to do with him. i understand we all have opinions but /sigh "come on" then how do you feel about the executive director of a team bashing the shit out of a translator whos not even part of a team/organization?
If milkis stopped for a second and started making sense on WoC, I would maybe agree with you
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On July 23 2011 11:01 JingleHell wrote:
This is being asked out of actual curiosity, not a desire to inflame: Do people actually feel that during the course of WoC, Milki's maintained an unbiased translator-only role? The impression I've gotten here is that he really is biased enough on the subject matter that it isn't entirely unreasonable that EG would hope he would get their side of the story.
Yes, he only translated, but even translation can bring with it personal bias, with or without intent. Certainly if I heard of a big news event through a biased source, I'd want to hear both sides of the story, and if the source providing the news didn't provide both sides of the story, and I recognized a level of bias, I would take the entire thing with a grain of salt.
Yes, he was continually asked for opinion and perspective. But he made it very clear what he thought was right and wrong in the situation in his opinion, and his perspective neatly coincided with his opinion.
Not saying there's anything wrong with having opinions or standing by them, but I'm just curious why people feel he should be getting "diplomatic immunity" as it were, when he didn't maintain his translation only role.
Example: If I hear something news-ish on the O'Reilly factor, you bet your ass I'm looking for the whole story later.
Becauase O'Reilly is payed, Milkis isn't.
Because Milkis is a volunteer.
Because Milkis is fucking invaluable to our community therefore we don't want to alienate him, attack him, or lose his contributions.
Because we love Milkis. <3
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On July 23 2011 11:29 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 11:01 JingleHell wrote:
This is being asked out of actual curiosity, not a desire to inflame: Do people actually feel that during the course of WoC, Milki's maintained an unbiased translator-only role? The impression I've gotten here is that he really is biased enough on the subject matter that it isn't entirely unreasonable that EG would hope he would get their side of the story.
Yes, he only translated, but even translation can bring with it personal bias, with or without intent. Certainly if I heard of a big news event through a biased source, I'd want to hear both sides of the story, and if the source providing the news didn't provide both sides of the story, and I recognized a level of bias, I would take the entire thing with a grain of salt.
Yes, he was continually asked for opinion and perspective. But he made it very clear what he thought was right and wrong in the situation in his opinion, and his perspective neatly coincided with his opinion.
Not saying there's anything wrong with having opinions or standing by them, but I'm just curious why people feel he should be getting "diplomatic immunity" as it were, when he didn't maintain his translation only role.
Example: If I hear something news-ish on the O'Reilly factor, you bet your ass I'm looking for the whole story later. Becauase O'Reilly is payed, Milkis isn't. Because Milkis is a volunteer. Because Milkis is fucking invaluable to our community therefore we don't want to alienate him, attack him, or lose his contributions. Because we love Milkis. <3
Is that really all the answer my question merits? I felt I was asking a reasonable question, with multiple valid points and a reasonable analogy, and all I get back is a string of incoherent babble that doesn't even answer my question.
How does getting paid affect the fact that he chose to editorialize? He revealed his bias, and then took personal offense at being called on it. I didn't think the way it was called out was so far out of line. Translation is providing news. A reporter doesn't (hopefully) invent the story, he just brings it to the market. A translator moves it to a different market, but that doesn't prevent the translator from being the reporter to the community he brings it to.
So please, answer my questions with something rational.
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On July 23 2011 11:36 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 11:29 ghrur wrote:On July 23 2011 11:01 JingleHell wrote:
This is being asked out of actual curiosity, not a desire to inflame: Do people actually feel that during the course of WoC, Milki's maintained an unbiased translator-only role? The impression I've gotten here is that he really is biased enough on the subject matter that it isn't entirely unreasonable that EG would hope he would get their side of the story.
Yes, he only translated, but even translation can bring with it personal bias, with or without intent. Certainly if I heard of a big news event through a biased source, I'd want to hear both sides of the story, and if the source providing the news didn't provide both sides of the story, and I recognized a level of bias, I would take the entire thing with a grain of salt.
Yes, he was continually asked for opinion and perspective. But he made it very clear what he thought was right and wrong in the situation in his opinion, and his perspective neatly coincided with his opinion.
Not saying there's anything wrong with having opinions or standing by them, but I'm just curious why people feel he should be getting "diplomatic immunity" as it were, when he didn't maintain his translation only role.
Example: If I hear something news-ish on the O'Reilly factor, you bet your ass I'm looking for the whole story later. Becauase O'Reilly is payed, Milkis isn't. Because Milkis is a volunteer. Because Milkis is fucking invaluable to our community therefore we don't want to alienate him, attack him, or lose his contributions. Because we love Milkis. <3 Is that really all the answer my question merits? I felt I was asking a reasonable question, with multiple valid points and a reasonable analogy, and all I get back is a string of incoherent babble that doesn't even answer my question. How does getting paid affect the fact that he chose to editorialize? He revealed his bias, and then took personal offense at being called on it. I didn't think the way it was called out was so far out of line. Translation is providing news. A reporter doesn't (hopefully) invent the story, he just brings it to the market. A translator moves it to a different market, but that doesn't prevent the translator from being the reporter to the community he brings it to. So please, answer my questions with something rational.
Sorry you don't understand.
Allow me to spell it out for you.
Volunteer = diplomatic immunity. Got it? Get it? Good!
To answer your first question, yes, that's all it merits.
EG deserves nothing from Milkis. We deserve nothing from Milkis. He has no standards. I'm just happy he translates for us at all. Not happy? Go translate yourself and be non-biased. I won't.
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EPT
