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I agree with all TLO and Tyler have said in this thread. I love Liquid even more.
And you Liquid guys can make things right. Just kick all EG butt you come across in the coming tournaments! I'll be cheering you on! 
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On July 23 2011 03:28 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 03:01 Tranqje wrote:On July 23 2011 02:08 Beyonder wrote:On July 23 2011 02:03 Duka08 wrote:On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote:
And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves." I knew I was forgetting something. Yeppp, I wonder if other people put this situation in the light of the TL-EG team league discussion. It looks so hilarious.. FOR ESPORTS!! Yeh man, that shit was so real. TL asked for accomodation EG wasn't prepared to give, therefore, TL didn't want to participate, so they said just that. I still don't get the shitstorm that brought up. I don't get this one either. Obviously you 'TL-guys' are biased, wich is normal and i'm fine with. But no matter what happens and eg is involved and there everyone is jumping on the wagon and making it a superhuge deal, wich it really never is. Need some more hating i guess. I highly doubt anyone here knows exaclty how everything went down without anyone of you actually being there, but it sure sounds like you all do. Bring out the pitchforks! You see this is the thing - if you don't UNDERSTAND why we are upset, why not admit you don't understand? I mean, it is painfully difficult to not understand it when there's so many posts explaining their views, their opinions, and most importantly THEIR PRINCIPLES, but obviously it's still possible (whether because you didn't read it or chose to ignore it is irrelevant). You don't decide what's a "big deal" and what isn't. I decide what's a big deal for me. TLO decides what's a big deal for him. Every single person does that. If so many of us consider it a big deal, then you coming here and telling us how it isn't and how we're all overreacting based on something you consider to be the objective truth (but really isn't) is beyond ridiculous. This whole issue is ultimately a matter of personal standards and principles. You don't find it a big deal? That says enough about your personal standards and principles. Nobody is pissed off at EG because it's EG, or because of any specific person in EG. One year ago, there was no bad sentiment towards EG in the community whatsoever. Between that time and now, they have done many things to change that, and people's opinion of EG changed to reflect that. It's all a consequence of their actions - not some declared witch-hunt you're imagining. The worst thing is that EG still doesn't get it or they pretend not to get it. To me personally it's obvious that many people don't really understand the Starcraft community either (hence they don't understand why coach Lee is upset, why the Korean fans are upset, and why a lot of people on TL are upset). If you go look at all the threads related to this issue, you'll see absurd number of posts that say things like "well that's how things are done in football/basketball/soccer/counter-strike its perfectly normal" and consider it a catch-all argument - but guess what - THIS ISN'T football or basketball or soccer or counter-strike. Try to understand the community and try to understand how things are different here and how many of us want to keep it different, and you might understand why this is a fairly big deal and why we feel so strongly about it. If you don't want to try, that's fine as well - just don't presume to tell others what should and shouldn't be a big deal for them. The same goes for EG if they don't want to become the poison brand of SC2 (even more than they are already).
People have all the right to be upset, but so far in various threads about this topic i've heard this is comparable to:
-evil businesses killing people with toxic waste
-women being raped because the way they dress
-ww2 ( this guy was taking the piss i pressume, but hey, it's the internet, you never know)
- i didnt read the other 250 pages, so i'm sure there's more of these gems in there
Some other people are calling out to boycot EG's sponsors. I'm sure Intell, Monster and whoever else is sponsering them (and E-sports in general) are behind this masterplan of recruiting Puma without talking to his coach first.
Rooting for EG players apparantly is out of the question aswell: it's not like they actually have to do anything with it, but hey, they're all evil bastards right?
Let's say that again: They talked to Puma without talking to his coach first. alright it's disrespectfull to korean culture. but it is what it is, it's not the f*cking end of the world.
Everyone seems to be taking this moral high ground and portraying EG as this super evil company whilst they're all wearing there clothes made by 10 year olds who are nothing more then slaves, heathing there houses and driving there cars with products of these multinational supercompanies who are destroying the environment, etc....
For me personally, people should get some perspective. get off your high horse about shit that doesn't mean anything and show this same passion towards actual problems.
SC2 is an amazing game, and an even more so amazing spectator sport for me. But in the end, it's just a game. And unless your livelyhood depends on it, you don't need to go overly crazy about everything.
tldr: people are ok to be pissed off and what not. but in the grand scheme of things, isn't all this hassle abit over the top?
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On July 23 2011 20:22 Tranqje wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 03:28 Talin wrote:On July 23 2011 03:01 Tranqje wrote:On July 23 2011 02:08 Beyonder wrote:On July 23 2011 02:03 Duka08 wrote:On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote:
And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves." I knew I was forgetting something. Yeppp, I wonder if other people put this situation in the light of the TL-EG team league discussion. It looks so hilarious.. FOR ESPORTS!! Yeh man, that shit was so real. TL asked for accomodation EG wasn't prepared to give, therefore, TL didn't want to participate, so they said just that. I still don't get the shitstorm that brought up. I don't get this one either. Obviously you 'TL-guys' are biased, wich is normal and i'm fine with. But no matter what happens and eg is involved and there everyone is jumping on the wagon and making it a superhuge deal, wich it really never is. Need some more hating i guess. I highly doubt anyone here knows exaclty how everything went down without anyone of you actually being there, but it sure sounds like you all do. Bring out the pitchforks! You see this is the thing - if you don't UNDERSTAND why we are upset, why not admit you don't understand? I mean, it is painfully difficult to not understand it when there's so many posts explaining their views, their opinions, and most importantly THEIR PRINCIPLES, but obviously it's still possible (whether because you didn't read it or chose to ignore it is irrelevant). You don't decide what's a "big deal" and what isn't. I decide what's a big deal for me. TLO decides what's a big deal for him. Every single person does that. If so many of us consider it a big deal, then you coming here and telling us how it isn't and how we're all overreacting based on something you consider to be the objective truth (but really isn't) is beyond ridiculous. This whole issue is ultimately a matter of personal standards and principles. You don't find it a big deal? That says enough about your personal standards and principles. Nobody is pissed off at EG because it's EG, or because of any specific person in EG. One year ago, there was no bad sentiment towards EG in the community whatsoever. Between that time and now, they have done many things to change that, and people's opinion of EG changed to reflect that. It's all a consequence of their actions - not some declared witch-hunt you're imagining. The worst thing is that EG still doesn't get it or they pretend not to get it. To me personally it's obvious that many people don't really understand the Starcraft community either (hence they don't understand why coach Lee is upset, why the Korean fans are upset, and why a lot of people on TL are upset). If you go look at all the threads related to this issue, you'll see absurd number of posts that say things like "well that's how things are done in football/basketball/soccer/counter-strike its perfectly normal" and consider it a catch-all argument - but guess what - THIS ISN'T football or basketball or soccer or counter-strike. Try to understand the community and try to understand how things are different here and how many of us want to keep it different, and you might understand why this is a fairly big deal and why we feel so strongly about it. If you don't want to try, that's fine as well - just don't presume to tell others what should and shouldn't be a big deal for them. The same goes for EG if they don't want to become the poison brand of SC2 (even more than they are already). Some other people are calling out to boycot EG's sponsors. I'm sure Intell, Monster and whoever else is sponsering them (and E-sports in general) are behind this masterplan of recruiting Puma without talking to his coach first.
Note: I'm not saying you should or shouldn't boycott, that's not the point I'm addressing.
But if you were to go about wanting to show dislike or upset with a team, the only way you have to go after them is to boycott their sponsors. It's not that Intel/Monster/etc are the "badguys", instead that boycotting them is just the only way one can express our dislike for it to be "felt", so to speak.
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On July 23 2011 18:27 shavi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 17:54 adeptz wrote:On July 23 2011 14:45 Apollo_Shards wrote:
Can someone PM me on what happened with EGs CS team that was similar to this? And I agree with you TLO. Why PM? This is history that people should know about. Basically after the fall of CGS, participating teams lost their nice salaries and had to find new sponsors/re-sign agreements with old sponsors (because most teams lost sponsors when they made the decision to join CGS). Complexity CS was in this situation, and all Jason Lake asked was for some time to find sponsors - note that this is the man who put his money on the line for a LONG time to grow/support/build that team into a dominant championship-winning team. AG's EG had a crapload of sponsors at that time because EG was the most stable organization to turn to when everyone else had jumped into CGS. Also note that AG was JL's good friend at that time, and assistant manager on the CGS team - so he knew the situation Complexity were in and basically "offered his business card" (see what i did there?) to the CS team without JL ever knowing. CS team accepts the offer, turns around and tells JL, "hey, we're going with EG". Conclusion: JL was hung out to dry with no team, and AG suddenly gets the #1 CS team in NA. But I like IdrA, JWong, and Ricky Ortiz so much.. Why couldn't they be on a different team. :< I hope this is just super biased or something. :/
Not biased at all, just telling it how it happened. Anybody following the cs scene back then would say the same (as someone else in this thread has already echoed my comments) - but don't take my word for it, search for the GotFrag archives and you can read them for yourself
On a side note, it shouldn't matter if this now makes you uncomfortable about EG - you should still support your favourite players (JWong, Idra, etc). Players and the organization that they're in are two separate things, you CAN choose to which entity you want your dollars to go to.
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On July 23 2011 23:00 adeptz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 18:27 shavi wrote:On July 23 2011 17:54 adeptz wrote:On July 23 2011 14:45 Apollo_Shards wrote:
Can someone PM me on what happened with EGs CS team that was similar to this? And I agree with you TLO. Why PM? This is history that people should know about. Basically after the fall of CGS, participating teams lost their nice salaries and had to find new sponsors/re-sign agreements with old sponsors (because most teams lost sponsors when they made the decision to join CGS). Complexity CS was in this situation, and all Jason Lake asked was for some time to find sponsors - note that this is the man who put his money on the line for a LONG time to grow/support/build that team into a dominant championship-winning team. AG's EG had a crapload of sponsors at that time because EG was the most stable organization to turn to when everyone else had jumped into CGS. Also note that AG was JL's good friend at that time, and assistant manager on the CGS team - so he knew the situation Complexity were in and basically "offered his business card" (see what i did there?) to the CS team without JL ever knowing. CS team accepts the offer, turns around and tells JL, "hey, we're going with EG". Conclusion: JL was hung out to dry with no team, and AG suddenly gets the #1 CS team in NA. But I like IdrA, JWong, and Ricky Ortiz so much.. Why couldn't they be on a different team. :< I hope this is just super biased or something. :/ Not biased at all, just telling it how it happened. Anybody following the cs scene back then would say the same (as someone else in this thread has already echoed my comments) - but don't take my word for it, search for the GotFrag archives and you can read them for yourself On a side note, it shouldn't matter if this now makes you uncomfortable about EG - you should still support your favourite players (JWong, Idra, etc). Players and the organization that they're in are two separate things, you CAN choose to which entity you want your dollars to go to.
I dunno, I find it hard to support a guy on a team that I am growing to despise more and more, I guess. :s I don't think I'll dislike the players because of their team or anything, but it certainly makes it more hard to root for them.
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On July 23 2011 20:22 Tranqje wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 03:28 Talin wrote:On July 23 2011 03:01 Tranqje wrote:On July 23 2011 02:08 Beyonder wrote:On July 23 2011 02:03 Duka08 wrote:On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote:
And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves." I knew I was forgetting something. Yeppp, I wonder if other people put this situation in the light of the TL-EG team league discussion. It looks so hilarious.. FOR ESPORTS!! Yeh man, that shit was so real. TL asked for accomodation EG wasn't prepared to give, therefore, TL didn't want to participate, so they said just that. I still don't get the shitstorm that brought up. I don't get this one either. Obviously you 'TL-guys' are biased, wich is normal and i'm fine with. But no matter what happens and eg is involved and there everyone is jumping on the wagon and making it a superhuge deal, wich it really never is. Need some more hating i guess. I highly doubt anyone here knows exaclty how everything went down without anyone of you actually being there, but it sure sounds like you all do. Bring out the pitchforks! You see this is the thing - if you don't UNDERSTAND why we are upset, why not admit you don't understand? I mean, it is painfully difficult to not understand it when there's so many posts explaining their views, their opinions, and most importantly THEIR PRINCIPLES, but obviously it's still possible (whether because you didn't read it or chose to ignore it is irrelevant). You don't decide what's a "big deal" and what isn't. I decide what's a big deal for me. TLO decides what's a big deal for him. Every single person does that. If so many of us consider it a big deal, then you coming here and telling us how it isn't and how we're all overreacting based on something you consider to be the objective truth (but really isn't) is beyond ridiculous. This whole issue is ultimately a matter of personal standards and principles. You don't find it a big deal? That says enough about your personal standards and principles. Nobody is pissed off at EG because it's EG, or because of any specific person in EG. One year ago, there was no bad sentiment towards EG in the community whatsoever. Between that time and now, they have done many things to change that, and people's opinion of EG changed to reflect that. It's all a consequence of their actions - not some declared witch-hunt you're imagining. The worst thing is that EG still doesn't get it or they pretend not to get it. To me personally it's obvious that many people don't really understand the Starcraft community either (hence they don't understand why coach Lee is upset, why the Korean fans are upset, and why a lot of people on TL are upset). If you go look at all the threads related to this issue, you'll see absurd number of posts that say things like "well that's how things are done in football/basketball/soccer/counter-strike its perfectly normal" and consider it a catch-all argument - but guess what - THIS ISN'T football or basketball or soccer or counter-strike. Try to understand the community and try to understand how things are different here and how many of us want to keep it different, and you might understand why this is a fairly big deal and why we feel so strongly about it. If you don't want to try, that's fine as well - just don't presume to tell others what should and shouldn't be a big deal for them. The same goes for EG if they don't want to become the poison brand of SC2 (even more than they are already). People have all the right to be upset, but so far in various threads about this topic i've heard this is comparable to: -evil businesses killing people with toxic waste -women being raped because the way they dress -ww2 ( this guy was taking the piss i pressume, but hey, it's the internet, you never know) - i didnt read the other 250 pages, so i'm sure there's more of these gems in there Some other people are calling out to boycot EG's sponsors. I'm sure Intell, Monster and whoever else is sponsering them (and E-sports in general) are behind this masterplan of recruiting Puma without talking to his coach first. Rooting for EG players apparantly is out of the question aswell: it's not like they actually have to do anything with it, but hey, they're all evil bastards right? Let's say that again: They talked to Puma without talking to his coach first. alright it's disrespectfull to korean culture. but it is what it is, it's not the f*cking end of the world. Everyone seems to be taking this moral high ground and portraying EG as this super evil company whilst they're all wearing there clothes made by 10 year olds who are nothing more then slaves, heathing there houses and driving there cars with products of these multinational supercompanies who are destroying the environment, etc....For me personally, people should get some perspective. get off your high horse about shit that doesn't mean anything and show this same passion towards actual problems. SC2 is an amazing game, and an even more so amazing spectator sport for me. But in the end, it's just a game. And unless your livelyhood depends on it, you don't need to go overly crazy about everything. tldr: people are ok to be pissed off and what not. but in the grand scheme of things, isn't all this hassle abit over the top?
That bolded part in your post rubs me wrong in every way possible. What the fuck do you mean by it?
If your concern is with the issues you're bringing up than you should be yelling the loudest, because child exploitation and environmental disregard are morally wrong and are unscrupulous business practices, just as player poaching is.
If you do not care and think this is something not worth the attention it is getting, and you still don't get it after reading all the posts about it, man, don't post. Just stick to EG and faboy it out till the end of time. Trying to call people hypocrites in such a sloppy fashion is just trolling.
From the way EG defended themselves on a friendly medium it was clear that they tried to approach some teams first but didn't like the money they needed to fork out to get players that way, then they got the idea to start innocently "handing out business cards" directly to the players. This, to me, is disgusting. Any player that resigns the contract with such an establishment, IMO, is directly supporting this behavior and are disgust worthy themselves. Sponsors that support such teams should be also made aware what they are actually giving their money to, some of them I am sure would heavily object in being represented that way.
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On July 24 2011 00:23 svarog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 20:22 Tranqje wrote:On July 23 2011 03:28 Talin wrote:On July 23 2011 03:01 Tranqje wrote:On July 23 2011 02:08 Beyonder wrote:On July 23 2011 02:03 Duka08 wrote:On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote:
And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves." I knew I was forgetting something. Yeppp, I wonder if other people put this situation in the light of the TL-EG team league discussion. It looks so hilarious.. FOR ESPORTS!! Yeh man, that shit was so real. TL asked for accomodation EG wasn't prepared to give, therefore, TL didn't want to participate, so they said just that. I still don't get the shitstorm that brought up. I don't get this one either. Obviously you 'TL-guys' are biased, wich is normal and i'm fine with. But no matter what happens and eg is involved and there everyone is jumping on the wagon and making it a superhuge deal, wich it really never is. Need some more hating i guess. I highly doubt anyone here knows exaclty how everything went down without anyone of you actually being there, but it sure sounds like you all do. Bring out the pitchforks! You see this is the thing - if you don't UNDERSTAND why we are upset, why not admit you don't understand? I mean, it is painfully difficult to not understand it when there's so many posts explaining their views, their opinions, and most importantly THEIR PRINCIPLES, but obviously it's still possible (whether because you didn't read it or chose to ignore it is irrelevant). You don't decide what's a "big deal" and what isn't. I decide what's a big deal for me. TLO decides what's a big deal for him. Every single person does that. If so many of us consider it a big deal, then you coming here and telling us how it isn't and how we're all overreacting based on something you consider to be the objective truth (but really isn't) is beyond ridiculous. This whole issue is ultimately a matter of personal standards and principles. You don't find it a big deal? That says enough about your personal standards and principles. Nobody is pissed off at EG because it's EG, or because of any specific person in EG. One year ago, there was no bad sentiment towards EG in the community whatsoever. Between that time and now, they have done many things to change that, and people's opinion of EG changed to reflect that. It's all a consequence of their actions - not some declared witch-hunt you're imagining. The worst thing is that EG still doesn't get it or they pretend not to get it. To me personally it's obvious that many people don't really understand the Starcraft community either (hence they don't understand why coach Lee is upset, why the Korean fans are upset, and why a lot of people on TL are upset). If you go look at all the threads related to this issue, you'll see absurd number of posts that say things like "well that's how things are done in football/basketball/soccer/counter-strike its perfectly normal" and consider it a catch-all argument - but guess what - THIS ISN'T football or basketball or soccer or counter-strike. Try to understand the community and try to understand how things are different here and how many of us want to keep it different, and you might understand why this is a fairly big deal and why we feel so strongly about it. If you don't want to try, that's fine as well - just don't presume to tell others what should and shouldn't be a big deal for them. The same goes for EG if they don't want to become the poison brand of SC2 (even more than they are already). People have all the right to be upset, but so far in various threads about this topic i've heard this is comparable to: -evil businesses killing people with toxic waste -women being raped because the way they dress -ww2 ( this guy was taking the piss i pressume, but hey, it's the internet, you never know) - i didnt read the other 250 pages, so i'm sure there's more of these gems in there Some other people are calling out to boycot EG's sponsors. I'm sure Intell, Monster and whoever else is sponsering them (and E-sports in general) are behind this masterplan of recruiting Puma without talking to his coach first. Rooting for EG players apparantly is out of the question aswell: it's not like they actually have to do anything with it, but hey, they're all evil bastards right? Let's say that again: They talked to Puma without talking to his coach first. alright it's disrespectfull to korean culture. but it is what it is, it's not the f*cking end of the world. Everyone seems to be taking this moral high ground and portraying EG as this super evil company whilst they're all wearing there clothes made by 10 year olds who are nothing more then slaves, heathing there houses and driving there cars with products of these multinational supercompanies who are destroying the environment, etc....For me personally, people should get some perspective. get off your high horse about shit that doesn't mean anything and show this same passion towards actual problems. SC2 is an amazing game, and an even more so amazing spectator sport for me. But in the end, it's just a game. And unless your livelyhood depends on it, you don't need to go overly crazy about everything. tldr: people are ok to be pissed off and what not. but in the grand scheme of things, isn't all this hassle abit over the top? That bolded part in your post rubs me wrong in every way possible. What the fuck do you mean by it? If your concern is with the issues you're bringing up than you should be yelling the loudest, because child exploitation and environmental disregard are morally wrong and are unscrupulous business practices, just as player poaching is. If you do not care and think this is something not worth the attention it is getting, and you still don't get it after reading all the posts about it, man, don't post. Just stick to EG and faboy it out till the end of time. Trying to call people hypocrites in such a sloppy fashion is just trolling. From the way EG defended themselves on a friendly medium it was clear that they tried to approach some teams first but didn't like the money they needed to fork out to get players that way, then they got the idea to start innocently "handing out business cards" directly to the players. This, to me, is disgusting. Any player that resigns the contract with such an establishment, IMO, is directly supporting this behavior and are disgust worthy themselves. Sponsors that support such teams should be also made aware what they are actually giving their money to, some of them I am sure would heavily object in being represented that way.
Poaching/headhunting is a natural part of eSports, professional sports, business, and life in general. Sponsors and people in general are aware of this and won't deem it disgusting or morally bankrupt like the extremely vocal minority does on TL forums.
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I'm glad I'm on the same page as my fav players. EG is such a joke of a team.
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On July 24 2011 02:00 Ezze wrote:
I'm glad I'm on the same page as my fav players. EG is such a joke of a team.
It's not the players, but the way in which EG does things. I mean, even with the EG-TL incident during the Masters Cup, you can see the way in which TL and EG operate are different. Alex Garfield can get the job done, period. He can get it done. But in the process, he doesn't really seem to care about the polite or custom way to do things. Like Tyler said, AG probably knew in his mind that he should've talked to Manager Lee first, but he didn't. AG has had tons of experience in the field and I can't believe he doesn't even know this simple tradition. So it's just EG management that I slightly dislike, not so much the players.
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On July 24 2011 01:35 Exley wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:23 svarog wrote:On July 23 2011 20:22 Tranqje wrote:On July 23 2011 03:28 Talin wrote:On July 23 2011 03:01 Tranqje wrote:On July 23 2011 02:08 Beyonder wrote:On July 23 2011 02:03 Duka08 wrote:On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote:
And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves." I knew I was forgetting something. Yeppp, I wonder if other people put this situation in the light of the TL-EG team league discussion. It looks so hilarious.. FOR ESPORTS!! Yeh man, that shit was so real. TL asked for accomodation EG wasn't prepared to give, therefore, TL didn't want to participate, so they said just that. I still don't get the shitstorm that brought up. I don't get this one either. Obviously you 'TL-guys' are biased, wich is normal and i'm fine with. But no matter what happens and eg is involved and there everyone is jumping on the wagon and making it a superhuge deal, wich it really never is. Need some more hating i guess. I highly doubt anyone here knows exaclty how everything went down without anyone of you actually being there, but it sure sounds like you all do. Bring out the pitchforks! You see this is the thing - if you don't UNDERSTAND why we are upset, why not admit you don't understand? I mean, it is painfully difficult to not understand it when there's so many posts explaining their views, their opinions, and most importantly THEIR PRINCIPLES, but obviously it's still possible (whether because you didn't read it or chose to ignore it is irrelevant). You don't decide what's a "big deal" and what isn't. I decide what's a big deal for me. TLO decides what's a big deal for him. Every single person does that. If so many of us consider it a big deal, then you coming here and telling us how it isn't and how we're all overreacting based on something you consider to be the objective truth (but really isn't) is beyond ridiculous. This whole issue is ultimately a matter of personal standards and principles. You don't find it a big deal? That says enough about your personal standards and principles. Nobody is pissed off at EG because it's EG, or because of any specific person in EG. One year ago, there was no bad sentiment towards EG in the community whatsoever. Between that time and now, they have done many things to change that, and people's opinion of EG changed to reflect that. It's all a consequence of their actions - not some declared witch-hunt you're imagining. The worst thing is that EG still doesn't get it or they pretend not to get it. To me personally it's obvious that many people don't really understand the Starcraft community either (hence they don't understand why coach Lee is upset, why the Korean fans are upset, and why a lot of people on TL are upset). If you go look at all the threads related to this issue, you'll see absurd number of posts that say things like "well that's how things are done in football/basketball/soccer/counter-strike its perfectly normal" and consider it a catch-all argument - but guess what - THIS ISN'T football or basketball or soccer or counter-strike. Try to understand the community and try to understand how things are different here and how many of us want to keep it different, and you might understand why this is a fairly big deal and why we feel so strongly about it. If you don't want to try, that's fine as well - just don't presume to tell others what should and shouldn't be a big deal for them. The same goes for EG if they don't want to become the poison brand of SC2 (even more than they are already). People have all the right to be upset, but so far in various threads about this topic i've heard this is comparable to: -evil businesses killing people with toxic waste -women being raped because the way they dress -ww2 ( this guy was taking the piss i pressume, but hey, it's the internet, you never know) - i didnt read the other 250 pages, so i'm sure there's more of these gems in there Some other people are calling out to boycot EG's sponsors. I'm sure Intell, Monster and whoever else is sponsering them (and E-sports in general) are behind this masterplan of recruiting Puma without talking to his coach first. Rooting for EG players apparantly is out of the question aswell: it's not like they actually have to do anything with it, but hey, they're all evil bastards right? Let's say that again: They talked to Puma without talking to his coach first. alright it's disrespectfull to korean culture. but it is what it is, it's not the f*cking end of the world. Everyone seems to be taking this moral high ground and portraying EG as this super evil company whilst they're all wearing there clothes made by 10 year olds who are nothing more then slaves, heathing there houses and driving there cars with products of these multinational supercompanies who are destroying the environment, etc....For me personally, people should get some perspective. get off your high horse about shit that doesn't mean anything and show this same passion towards actual problems. SC2 is an amazing game, and an even more so amazing spectator sport for me. But in the end, it's just a game. And unless your livelyhood depends on it, you don't need to go overly crazy about everything. tldr: people are ok to be pissed off and what not. but in the grand scheme of things, isn't all this hassle abit over the top? That bolded part in your post rubs me wrong in every way possible. What the fuck do you mean by it? If your concern is with the issues you're bringing up than you should be yelling the loudest, because child exploitation and environmental disregard are morally wrong and are unscrupulous business practices, just as player poaching is. If you do not care and think this is something not worth the attention it is getting, and you still don't get it after reading all the posts about it, man, don't post. Just stick to EG and faboy it out till the end of time. Trying to call people hypocrites in such a sloppy fashion is just trolling. From the way EG defended themselves on a friendly medium it was clear that they tried to approach some teams first but didn't like the money they needed to fork out to get players that way, then they got the idea to start innocently "handing out business cards" directly to the players. This, to me, is disgusting. Any player that resigns the contract with such an establishment, IMO, is directly supporting this behavior and are disgust worthy themselves. Sponsors that support such teams should be also made aware what they are actually giving their money to, some of them I am sure would heavily object in being represented that way. Poaching/headhunting is a natural part of eSports, professional sports, business, and life in general. Sponsors and people in general are aware of this and won't deem it disgusting or morally bankrupt like the extremely vocal minority does on TL forums.
Here it's not natural, it's not ethical, and it obviously isn't acceptable (can't you tell?)
If EG likes how it's done in other e-sports, they should stick to other e-sports. Or start a basketball team. But don't bring that attitude to Starcraft.
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No... it's fine here. Swooping in and sniping personnel is acceptable so long as its legal. Puma wasn't even under a contract before he signed with EG... so what exactly are people mad about... that EG didn't contact TSL before signing a player that was not under contract?
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On July 24 2011 03:21 Exley wrote:
No... it's fine here.
How can you possibly claim that it's fine when you can see and read with your own eyes that it's not fine and it's not acceptable?
There are 3 threads about it. There is a translation of Korean reactions to it as well. Known players and managers have disagreed with the way it was done.
Go ahead and add up the numbers.
It might be fine for you, and you might only care about the legality of it - but the fact there's a massive outrage indicates that it's not fine here, it's not fine in Korea, and teams will probably be wise to think twice about pulling something like this in the future.
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Because the minority is extremely vocal. And sponsors aren't going to care about a team offering a contract to an essentially unsigned player. And a western team has acquired one of the best players int he world, and this player now has a solid contract giving him stability. And the "massive outrage" has been generated largely by miscommunication rather than any wrongdoing.
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Wow TLO summarized all my thoughts on this perfectly. Thank you!
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On July 24 2011 03:41 Exley wrote:
Because the minority is extremely vocal. And sponsors aren't going to care about a team offering a contract to an essentially unsigned player. And a western team has acquired one of the best players int he world, and this player now has a solid contract giving him stability. And the "massive outrage" has been generated largely by miscommunication rather than any wrongdoing.
It must be some vocal minority to make a 200 page thread in a couple of hours.
The massive outrage is not due to some honest mistake or due to miscommunication but due to intentional player poaching.
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On July 24 2011 03:53 svarog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 03:41 Exley wrote:
Because the minority is extremely vocal. And sponsors aren't going to care about a team offering a contract to an essentially unsigned player. And a western team has acquired one of the best players int he world, and this player now has a solid contract giving him stability. And the "massive outrage" has been generated largely by miscommunication rather than any wrongdoing. It must be some vocal minority to make a 200 page thread in a couple of hours. The massive outrage is not due to some honest mistake or due to miscommunication but due to intentional player poaching.
The fact that the original blog post isn't even about the player poaching but instead the calling out a translator and that this got so far off topic so fast should speak volumes that this community cares pretty heavily about the subject.
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Good luck finding any industry without intentional player poaching--- is there any other kind by the way?
For some reason people think buying players out is unethical/unacceptable when it's the other way around. It would be unfair to prohibit players from receiving better offers from different teams without the use of a contract. There was no contract, so Puma was free to receive better offers from EG. The fact that swooping in and buying valuable personnel is possible facilitates more money flowing into the sport.
The "outrage" has been created out of thin air by A) ignorant people, B) A pro voicing his opinion, being out of his element, and C) how conducive the TL forums are to generating artificial controversy.
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On July 24 2011 04:11 Exley wrote:
Good luck finding any industry without intentional player poaching--- is there any other kind by the way?
For some reason people think buying players out is unethical/unacceptable when it's the other way around. It would be unfair to prohibit players from receiving better offers from different teams without the use of a contract. There was no contract, so Puma was free to receive better offers from EG. The fact that swooping in and buying valuable personnel is possible facilitates more money flowing into the port.
The "outrage" has been created out of thin air by A) ignorant people, B) A pro voicing his opinion, being out of his element, and C) how conducive the TL forums are to generating artificial controversy.
I hope you're not just throwing words around, and that is why I'd really like to hear what is your definition of "artificial controversy" and how is that conductive to the TL forums. Please?
Also, how are people ignorant when they object to EG's conduct? What knowledge do we lack?
As for the contract part it has been covered so many times in this and the other threads that I will not even bother to repeat the obvious flaw in logic there.
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On July 23 2011 04:18 JadedKnight wrote:
I have to disagree with you TLO sorry. This is how professional sports team run (at least in America). If there is a player that's a free agent or on the waiver wire, other teams will try to snatch them up even without "caring about consequences towards third parties." EG had no responsibility to contact TSL regarding their attempt to acquire Puma IMHO!
It's hard for me to see this as the same as professional sports. In professional sports, there aren't players that play for a team for no contract. In Starcraft, there are. A free agent is a player without a team. PuMa is on a team. PuMa is something in the middle of a free agent and a contracted player, and therefore the system of acquiring said player becomes a lot more difficult.
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On July 23 2011 05:41 Slasher wrote:
I'm not fucking Zlasher.
LOL.
On July 23 2011 18:44 Usagi wrote:
Cant help after reading all this about Milkis or not Milkis...
That given the standards and what he defended in WoC...
Milkis is as much asociated with TL as Puma was with TSL.
TSL gives practice and housing.
TL gives a platform to get your word out and then go and do amazing things like spending the weekedn with MLG translating for the koreans.
ahhhh, double standards.
No.
Ahh. Manifest destiny.
Can't believe there are actually a few people saying that TLO shouldn't be able to post this...his own opinion? whatttt?
And omg at the whole "we do this shit our way here, so of course we can just do the same anywhere else []korea[] har har har Uh-Mur-i-KA rulessss"
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EPT
