On July 23 2011 18:44 Usagi wrote: Cant help after reading all this about Milkis or not Milkis...
That given the standards and what he defended in WoC...
Milkis is as much asociated with TL as Puma was with TSL.
TSL gives practice and housing. TL gives a platform to get your word out and then go and do amazing things like spending the weekedn with MLG translating for the koreans.
ahhhh, double standards.
No.
Ahh. Manifest destiny. Can't believe there are actually a few people saying that TLO shouldn't be able to post this...his own opinion? whatttt?
And omg at the whole "we do this shit our way here, so of course we can just do the same anywhere else []korea[] har har har Uh-Mur-i-KA rulessss"
Thanks for adding to the discussion with a "No" this is the most well thought response I have had in a long while.
Great post Dario, also Beyonder pretty much nailed it. Also I like what Milkis said on WoC: "They have the supply and you are the one who wants something. So you will have to make them an offer and when you do it, it is expected that you do it in a very specific way". After Milkis said that, Alex and Wheat were speechless followed by an awkward silence of 5 seconds.
On July 24 2011 04:11 Exley wrote: Good luck finding any industry without intentional player poaching--- is there any other kind by the way?
For some reason people think buying players out is unethical/unacceptable when it's the other way around. It would be unfair to prohibit players from receiving better offers from different teams without the use of a contract. There was no contract, so Puma was free to receive better offers from EG. The fact that swooping in and buying valuable personnel is possible facilitates more money flowing into the port.
The "outrage" has been created out of thin air by A) ignorant people, B) A pro voicing his opinion, being out of his element, and C) how conducive the TL forums are to generating artificial controversy.
I hope you're not just throwing words around, and that is why I'd really like to hear what is your definition of "artificial controversy" and how is that conductive to the TL forums. Please?
Also, how are people ignorant when they object to EG's conduct? What knowledge do we lack?
As for the contract part it has been covered so many times in this and the other threads that I will not even bother to repeat the obvious flaw in logic there.
Artificial controversy is a hubbub created by the army of dramallamas that inhabit TL; thus, the TL forums are conducive to making controversy out of thin air.
People are ignorant because they are mistaken in thinking EG's conduct is unacceptable, since player-poaching is commonplace. Besides that, people are ignorant because they only read TLO's post and never took the time to learn about exactly what happened.
I dont think they should apologice in a one sided way.
I guess they have talked with him by now, and they will release some kind of joint explanation. Because coach Lee's action stirring up the drama was not acceptable either.
Oh, and Im sure if they talked things should be fine betwheen the parties, feels like a misscomunication that became internet drama.
On July 24 2011 04:11 Exley wrote: Good luck finding any industry without intentional player poaching--- is there any other kind by the way?
For some reason people think buying players out is unethical/unacceptable when it's the other way around. It would be unfair to prohibit players from receiving better offers from different teams without the use of a contract. There was no contract, so Puma was free to receive better offers from EG. The fact that swooping in and buying valuable personnel is possible facilitates more money flowing into the port.
The "outrage" has been created out of thin air by A) ignorant people, B) A pro voicing his opinion, being out of his element, and C) how conducive the TL forums are to generating artificial controversy.
I hope you're not just throwing words around, and that is why I'd really like to hear what is your definition of "artificial controversy" and how is that conductive to the TL forums. Please?
Also, how are people ignorant when they object to EG's conduct? What knowledge do we lack?
As for the contract part it has been covered so many times in this and the other threads that I will not even bother to repeat the obvious flaw in logic there.
Artificial controversy is a hubbub created by the army of dramallamas that inhabit TL; thus, the TL forums are conducive to making controversy out of thin air.
People are ignorant because they are mistaken in thinking EG's conduct is unacceptable, since player-poaching is commonplace. Besides that, people are ignorant because they only read TLO's post and never took the time to learn about exactly what happened.
In all threads regarding this subject I have seen many people that have genuine concern with the subject and have well developed and well articulated opinions which surely can be anything but a "hubbub". You can choose to take their points of view with more or less seriousness, or just disagree on principle, but dismissing them outright as "dramallamas" is.. well childish and immature, or just plain non-constructive in the least. If you decide to reply and join in the discussion you should try to contribute with something at least, otherwise what you say can be defined as "hubbub".
English is not my first language but I find your explanation why people are ignorant to be insufficient. I think it is arrogant on your part to presume that people haven't read more on the matter and that their opinions are based on the amount of gas they have passed in the last few days. It is obvious that EG's conduct IS unacceptable because so many people protest against it on the ground that "it is unacceptable". You could try to downplay the fact all you want but the sheer amount of posts is enough to prove this point I think.
And at the very end, your claim is very much like saying that it is always a "vocal minority" that is presenting their opinions, with the intent to imply that the "unvocal majority" is actually with the completely opposite impression on the matter at hand, which is in truth just a bunch of bullshit and a pitiful attempt to deflect and derail.
Ok first of all: sorry if I've been ignorant I really couldn't be bothered to read this whole damn thread to see where its going. (ill pay you to make a summary thread and keep it updated)(not not really but do it) I read until like page 20
Secondly: my own opinion on it
Is it just me but did it really feel like AG was attacking Milkis during WoC? I was saying to myself at the time 'not attacking your down right nukeing him'. Clearly AG plays terran.
I certainly think that EG took the wrong way to try and communicate with players. I've read that EG has been handing out cards to players, and that it was their idea of supporting ESPORTS, but are you really supporting ESPORTS if you cause such a shit storm after you try to recruit someone? I dont own a team, but if I did, I would have tried to build a relationship with the player and team like FXO did with fOu, and its said that fOu gladly released that player (his name escapes me) gladly and that there is like no bad blood between the teams at all (well team now). I certainly think that EG went about it the wrong way. Ok fine you hand out cards great, but to get into talks with a player behind a teams back is certainly well a little disrespectful of the team and coach, and while I havent heard what really went on between them, EG havent really been transparent about it either.
Granted they didnt post at 2am, and people who really expect them to have done it are well a little insane and impatient. Even if they did decide to make a public announcement at 2am, not everyone would have read it and wake up to a shit storm.
Personally I think AG really did go too far on WoC. He was really really forward and pressured Milkis for not contacting them and stuff, but do you really need to shoot the messenger? I dont believe a translator is a journalist, he isnt getting paid money and he isnt receiving anything in return (except for maybe fame ) so why should be held accountable for translating a article that someone else posted?
I think what TLO said was well put. Sounds a little hurt and unhappy but it was well put regardless.
One more thing: thank you TL community for generally not rageing and posting well thought posts, I still feel sorry for the mods to have to sift through 28 pages though xD
On July 24 2011 04:11 Exley wrote: Good luck finding any industry without intentional player poaching--- is there any other kind by the way?
But I don't want to find another "industry" because I don't care how it's done elsewhere (well I do, but that's not the subject here).
All I care about is teams that do it in Starcraft receiving a sufficient amount of public backlash so that they would avoid doing it in the future.
On July 24 2011 04:11 Exley wrote: For some reason people think buying players out is unethical/unacceptable when it's the other way around.
Well done on trying to instruct others on what moral standards should they adopt and what should they find ethical. I'm sure a lot of people will change their mind after having read your post.
If I say it's unethical, it means I find it unethical. I also find your stance to be wrong, and your grasp of ethics to be horrible. Which I'm sure means as much to you as your opinion of my opinion means to me.
So don't waste your time on that.
On July 24 2011 04:11 Exley wrote: The "outrage" has been created out of thin air by A) ignorant people, B) A pro voicing his opinion, being out of his element, and C) how conducive the TL forums are to generating artificial controversy.
Such a pointless inflammatory statement. You're in no position to pass judgement on other people, nor is that the topic here.
On July 23 2011 14:45 Apollo_Shards wrote: Can someone PM me on what happened with EGs CS team that was similar to this? And I agree with you TLO.
Why PM? This is history that people should know about.
Basically after the fall of CGS, participating teams lost their nice salaries and had to find new sponsors/re-sign agreements with old sponsors (because most teams lost sponsors when they made the decision to join CGS). Complexity CS was in this situation, and all Jason Lake asked was for some time to find sponsors - note that this is the man who put his money on the line for a LONG time to grow/support/build that team into a dominant championship-winning team.
AG's EG had a crapload of sponsors at that time because EG was the most stable organization to turn to when everyone else had jumped into CGS.
Also note that AG was JL's good friend at that time, and assistant manager on the CGS team - so he knew the situation Complexity were in and basically "offered his business card" (see what i did there?) to the CS team without JL ever knowing.
CS team accepts the offer, turns around and tells JL, "hey, we're going with EG". Conclusion: JL was hung out to dry with no team, and AG suddenly gets the #1 CS team in NA.
But I like IdrA, JWong, and Ricky Ortiz so much.. Why couldn't they be on a different team. :<
I hope this is just super biased or something. :/
It's pretty hard to not sound biased when describing what happened - it's pretty much exactly what went down.
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves."
I knew I was forgetting something.
Yeppp, I wonder if other people put this situation in the light of the TL-EG team league discussion. It looks so hilarious..
FOR ESPORTS!!
Yeh man, that shit was so real. TL asked for accomodation EG wasn't prepared to give, therefore, TL didn't want to participate, so they said just that. I still don't get the shitstorm that brought up.
I don't get this one either. Obviously you 'TL-guys' are biased, wich is normal and i'm fine with.
But no matter what happens and eg is involved and there everyone is jumping on the wagon and making it a superhuge deal, wich it really never is.
Need some more hating i guess. I highly doubt anyone here knows exaclty how everything went down without anyone of you actually being there, but it sure sounds like you all do.
Bring out the pitchforks!
You see this is the thing - if you don't UNDERSTAND why we are upset, why not admit you don't understand?
I mean, it is painfully difficult to not understand it when there's so many posts explaining their views, their opinions, and most importantly THEIR PRINCIPLES, but obviously it's still possible (whether because you didn't read it or chose to ignore it is irrelevant).
You don't decide what's a "big deal" and what isn't. I decide what's a big deal for me. TLO decides what's a big deal for him. Every single person does that. If so many of us consider it a big deal, then you coming here and telling us how it isn't and how we're all overreacting based on something you consider to be the objective truth (but really isn't) is beyond ridiculous.
This whole issue is ultimately a matter of personal standards and principles. You don't find it a big deal? That says enough about your personal standards and principles.
Nobody is pissed off at EG because it's EG, or because of any specific person in EG. One year ago, there was no bad sentiment towards EG in the community whatsoever. Between that time and now, they have done many things to change that, and people's opinion of EG changed to reflect that. It's all a consequence of their actions - not some declared witch-hunt you're imagining. The worst thing is that EG still doesn't get it or they pretend not to get it.
To me personally it's obvious that many people don't really understand the Starcraft community either (hence they don't understand why coach Lee is upset, why the Korean fans are upset, and why a lot of people on TL are upset). If you go look at all the threads related to this issue, you'll see absurd number of posts that say things like "well that's how things are done in football/basketball/soccer/counter-strike its perfectly normal" and consider it a catch-all argument - but guess what - THIS ISN'T football or basketball or soccer or counter-strike.
Try to understand the community and try to understand how things are different here and how many of us want to keep it different, and you might understand why this is a fairly big deal and why we feel so strongly about it. If you don't want to try, that's fine as well - just don't presume to tell others what should and shouldn't be a big deal for them. The same goes for EG if they don't want to become the poison brand of SC2 (even more than they are already).
People have all the right to be upset, but so far in various threads about this topic i've heard this is comparable to:
-evil businesses killing people with toxic waste -women being raped because the way they dress -ww2 ( this guy was taking the piss i pressume, but hey, it's the internet, you never know) - i didnt read the other 250 pages, so i'm sure there's more of these gems in there
Some other people are calling out to boycot EG's sponsors. I'm sure Intell, Monster and whoever else is sponsering them (and E-sports in general) are behind this masterplan of recruiting Puma without talking to his coach first.
Rooting for EG players apparantly is out of the question aswell: it's not like they actually have to do anything with it, but hey, they're all evil bastards right?
Let's say that again: They talked to Puma without talking to his coach first. alright it's disrespectfull to korean culture. but it is what it is, it's not the f*cking end of the world.
Everyone seems to be taking this moral high ground and portraying EG as this super evil company whilst they're all wearing there clothes made by 10 year olds who are nothing more then slaves, heathing there houses and driving there cars with products of these multinational supercompanies who are destroying the environment, etc....
For me personally, people should get some perspective. get off your high horse about shit that doesn't mean anything and show this same passion towards actual problems.
SC2 is an amazing game, and an even more so amazing spectator sport for me. But in the end, it's just a game. And unless your livelyhood depends on it, you don't need to go overly crazy about everything.
tldr: people are ok to be pissed off and what not. but in the grand scheme of things, isn't all this hassle abit over the top?
And who are you to dictate what people should take seriously and how they should take perspective on subjects?
I called you guys dramallamas because that's exactly what you are.
EG poached a player behind TSL's coaching staff when there was no legal protection. They violated no rules, and despite Tyler's insistence that EG and AG are liars, they haven't seemed to misinform on the topic at hand. After a brief miscommunication between TSL and EG, Milkis made a post and some tweets, TLO followed up with this blog, and suddenly a controversy was born.
It has since been blown out of proportion by the dramallamas who have made it into a question of ethics when it never needed to be. This is about legality and the infrastructure needed to prevent things like this from happening again. Many dramallamas have cited their personal dislike of EG members and past controversies; some have even called for sponsors to pull support from EG. Good luck with that.
EG did what many competitive teams/businesses/firms/people would do. Does EG have any regrets? Probably, but they also have one of the best players in the world on a contract.
You don't like it? Deal with it, because it's a fact of life that people make offers behind the backs of others, whether its ethical or not. Teams know this... sponsors know this... people with common sense know this.
Tyler used to call EG unprofessional in the way they do business and he did it way back in a SotG episode. And I honestly thought Tyler was being a hater and dismissed it, as time goes on it looks like Tyler is on the money.
On July 24 2011 06:50 Exley wrote: I called you guys dramallamas because that's exactly what you are.
EG poached a player behind TSL's coaching staff when there was no legal protection. They violated no rules, and despite Tyler's insistence that EG and AG are liars, they haven't seemed to misinform on the topic at hand. After a brief miscommunication between TSL and EG, Milkis made a post and some tweets, TLO followed up with this blog, and suddenly a controversy was born.
It has since been blown out of proportion by the dramallamas who have made it into a question of ethics when it never needed to be. This is about legality and the infrastructure needed to prevent things like this from happening again. Many dramallamas have cited their personal dislike of EG members and past controversies; some have even called for sponsors to pull support from EG. Good luck with that.
EG did what many competitive teams/businesses/firms/people would do. Does EG have any regrets? Probably, but they also have one of the best players in the world on a contract.
You don't like it? Deal with it, because it's a fact of life that people make offers behind the backs of others, whether its ethical or not. Teams know this... sponsors know this... people with common sense know this.
I will not go through the whole debate with you over again. If you wish to read up on my opinions on the issue you can easily find my posts. But from the reactions from teams and proplayers as well as fans in Korea and internationally it is obvious that people do not like this. And sponsors do care what fans like or dislike, and teams care what sponsors like or dislike. People with common sense know this.
I agree that there are scumbags that do awful things behind other people's backs and that is a fact of life. But embracing them and what they do is sad and shows personal lack of testicular fortitude, and there is no drama in that.
business is for businessmen, but I`m a just a fan and I feel like TLO and many others in this blog. EG did wrong in the first place and when everything became public they handled the whole situation wrong (again). How cant they see this has a huge effect?! Korean players might not be flying over to participate in foreign events, cuz their management fears for them to get stolen. And what about the PR damage. Example: TL has a Team and EG has a Team - both Teams have hardware sponsors and now guess whose teams Hardwaresponsor will sell more equipment. The one whose Team is loved in the community, or the one that is "not so loved" (to put it polite)? Math can be so easy... . In addition, don`t forget the longterm effect - once you have a fucked up image, it is almost impossible to lose it again.
On July 25 2011 12:11 Logginurkeyz wrote: blaming Milkis for bad PR by EG is like bombing for peace...
Really Milkis don't worry about EG. SirScoots has threatened to sue me over shit I've said over a stream while being under no contract to them because I talked about how shady EG does shit.
Keep your chin up! I really enjoyed the translation you did and don't let all this shit get you down. EG is a greedy team and they do some really shady shit behind the scenes. You're doing a great job bringing some of that out.
EPT
) so why should be held accountable for translating a article that someone else posted? 
