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Maybe IT's just me - but why is EG the bad guy again? Because they approach players? Like every other team does? I'm sure HuK talked to TL before leaving millenium so TL can't be on a high horse about this.
Is it because they didn't release a statement? You know the ones that got them in trouble not ever 6 months ago by the same guys who are talking trash now?
Is it because they can afford to provide for their players and travel them around the world - and SALARY them?
And why are people feeling bad for TSL - you know the team that was founded when coach lee stole players from OGS - when they forced a player out, when he had not signed with EG, but simply told coach lee that he had been contacted by them.
I don't get why EG is the bad guy here. They wanted to help a player out with sponsorship and instead gets him kicked out of his house and meal ticket because they wanted to have him think it over with his coach instead of just signing him then and there like some other teams would.
ALSO:
Am i the only one who gets pissed when someone says that their twitter is personal and only reflects their opinions when just minutes before they were saying that Sirscoots' twitter was the official word of team EG. You can't have it both ways man.
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On July 23 2011 05:48 integrity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 05:43 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 23 2011 03:42 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 23 2011 03:36 Saechiis wrote:
It's obvious TSL didn't want to get rid PuMa. It's obvious that signing TSL's top player without contacting the manager is sneaky and immoral. It's obvious that the possibility to cheaply sign one of the best players in the world was more important to EG than the, again, obvious backlash it would cause. ...I'm so glad the TL community actually reads and finds out what happened before jumping to conclusions. Puma has not been signed with EG. There is nothing signed between Puma and EG. Puma is the one who requested that EG does not contact his coach.Again here is to the best of my knowledge how everthing went down based off of the 2 translated interviews, AGs statements on WoC and Xeris comments about EGs recruitment at NASL. Stop twisting the facts with your own bias. Puma didn't request anything. AG and Puma talked and decided it would be best for Puma to talk to the coach himself. i do understand why it is so wrong if the player decided that it would be best if he himself talked to the coach? it was pumas wishes....would it then be immoral if AG went behind puma back and talk to the coach anyway?
what are you even talking about? why would AG need to talk to the coach behind Puma's back?
When my 10 year old sister tells me she'll walk back home from her night class do I let her? Obviously not I go pick her up anyways. Does that mean I'm disrespecting her? No I care about her. Puma is a player, he's 19, playing Starcraft is his job. AG is responsible for management and communicating from other teams. For him to imply that Puma was somehow responsible for the miscommunication and ensuing fallout between him and the coach saying that "oh i didn't know, puma said it went well" is complete bullshit. It was never his responsibility in the first place, even if Puma said he would talk to the coach. AG knew the coach would obviously be upset to lose their star player (this point is not even up to debate) and conveniently used Puma to circumvent contacting the coach directly himself.
What I can't stand is how he kept dragging Puma down with him saying "he said he would do ___", "he said it went ___", and how they both agreed on a plan when the one pulling the strings was AG all along
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On July 23 2011 05:22 integrity wrote:
I just wanted to say that as a fan of Mr. TLO i am very sad to see someone i respect resolve to "Team Bashing" on matters that have nothing to do with him. i understand we all have opinions but /sigh "come on"
He can express his opinions just like anyone else. And besides, it's not even that extreme. He' just disspointed in the way this whole thing was handled. I htink a lot of people are.
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On July 23 2011 06:20 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 05:48 integrity wrote:On July 23 2011 05:43 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 23 2011 03:42 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 23 2011 03:36 Saechiis wrote:
It's obvious TSL didn't want to get rid PuMa. It's obvious that signing TSL's top player without contacting the manager is sneaky and immoral. It's obvious that the possibility to cheaply sign one of the best players in the world was more important to EG than the, again, obvious backlash it would cause. ...I'm so glad the TL community actually reads and finds out what happened before jumping to conclusions. Puma has not been signed with EG. There is nothing signed between Puma and EG. Puma is the one who requested that EG does not contact his coach.Again here is to the best of my knowledge how everthing went down based off of the 2 translated interviews, AGs statements on WoC and Xeris comments about EGs recruitment at NASL. Stop twisting the facts with your own bias. Puma didn't request anything. AG and Puma talked and decided it would be best for Puma to talk to the coach himself. i do understand why it is so wrong if the player decided that it would be best if he himself talked to the coach? it was pumas wishes....would it then be immoral if AG went behind puma back and talk to the coach anyway? what are you even talking about? why would AG need to talk to the coach behind Puma's back? When my 10 year old sister tells me she'll walk back home from her night class do I let her? Obviously not I go pick her up anyways. Puma is a player, he's 19, playing Starcraft is his job. AG is responsible for management and communicating from other teams. For him to imply that Puma was somehow responsible for the miscommunication and ensuing fallout between him and the coach saying that "oh i didn't know, puma said it went well" is complete bullshit. It was never his responsibility in the first place, even if Puma said he would talk to the coach. AG knew the coach would obviously be upset to lose their star player (this point is not even up to debate) and conveniently used Puma to circumvent contacting the coach directly himself. What I can't stand is how he kept dragging Puma down with him saying "he said he would do ___", "he said it went ___", and how they both agreed on a plan when the puppeteer was AG's all along.
puma is an adult not a child. if puma said he felt more comfortable to bring this topic to his team coach(which he is not bound legally) that is his decision. there is no reason to fault EG for that....(imo)
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I'm not too surprised to see TL players taking a stance against EG on this, I can even sympathise with defending Milkis in regards to Alex's comments about journalism. I do think that if you look at that question and apply it more widely it is a valid point. How many of the recent SC2 dramas have kicked off because of someone posting a half cocked story with minimal actual information. Whether that is Milkis OP_IS_MASTERS_FYI or anyone else.
On the surface this particular situation looks no different to Rain leaving, the only distinction perhaps is that Rain didn't mention to his coach who had shown interest (guessing here) and Puma did. Coach Lee has said that when Rain was signed he wasn't part of TSL, well Puma isn't signed and isn't part of TSL so this drama really is totally unnecessary.
It's nice to hear other players opinions, but I can't help feeling that a lot of the comments being made have more to do with existing feelings towards EG management than recent events. Defend Milkis, sure, the issue of whether he is translator or journalist/reporter is a grey area and it becomes a grey area when it gets linked to by the poster as 'Breaking news' and maintained as an ongoing story.
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To be honest i think when a player says "let me talk to my manager before you do." You as an interest have to accept the players decision. You have to because it might be the best way to do it. You also dont know the player and the coaches relationship. Plus its a betrayal in trust if you agree that they will talk to the coach first and then do it yourself, something that cant happen when starting a new business relationship
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On July 23 2011 06:25 xXFireandIceXx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 05:22 integrity wrote:
I just wanted to say that as a fan of Mr. TLO i am very sad to see someone i respect resolve to "Team Bashing" on matters that have nothing to do with him. i understand we all have opinions but /sigh "come on" He can express his opinions just like anyone else. And besides, it's not even that extreme. He' just disspointed in the way this whole thing was handled. I htink a lot of people are.
If he was only disappointed in the situation, why did he call EG evil, and not geniuses. I'm pretty sure someone could sue him and win (not that I think he should be sued).
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On July 23 2011 06:18 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 06:07 eggs wrote:On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote:
I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter. stopped reading there. 2:30 AM, "AMERICAN time." while everyone on TL was live streaming GSTL. just solidifies the fact that EG has no respect for the Korean scene. Wait not watching the GSL live at 2:30am means you don't respect the Korean scene? Seriously?
what? how did you even draw that conclusion from my post? the point was that EG didn't need to construct some well-written full PR statement with every detail. Scoots and Incontrol were awake and aware of the thread blowing up, but they chose to troll twitter and roll their eyes rather than make any sort of effort to clarify the situation.
this post from earlier in this thread shows how a simple post prevents crap from blowing up like it did in the PuMa/EG/TSL thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=246495¤tpage=4#74
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I think the biggest thing we need to remember, is that there is a difference between the EG Management, and the EG Players.
No one should get upset with IdrA, iNcontroL, Demuslim, etc.
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puma did not have a contract and eg talked to him about signing him on the team. Easy as pie. I don't agree with TLO saying EG are evil, they are just a team like any other. Coach lee is upset on his managerial skills, not on EG.
it's weird because i thought he was a really cool guy by watching hyung joon becomes a pro gamer
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On July 23 2011 06:19 VAR1ABLES wrote:
And why are people feeling bad for TSL - you know the team that was founded when coach lee stole players from OGS - when they forced a player out, when he had not signed with EG, but simply told coach lee that he had been contacted by them.
Didn't know about that part but still, 2 wrongs make a right ?
ALSO:
Am i the only one who gets pissed when someone says that their twitter is personal and only reflects their opinions when just minutes before they were saying that Sirscoots' twitter was the official word of team EG. You can't have it both ways man.
Why ? Sirscoots is the voice of EG (at least to me, that's the only thing I know about him - and I am probably not the only one) while milkies is the voice of...milkies (same comment).
To take another parallel, when incontrol was mod on TL , if some e-drama was taking place in between TL and EG and inc tweeted about it, his opinion would always be the one defending EG - and that's how it should be, it's his job - whereas if another drama was taking place between TL and xxxx, he'd always defend TL if he thought it was right - that's his opinion. You can have it both ways, people have multiple jobs/roles/faces. If milkies was to TL what Nazgul is, then I guess the situation would be different, but as far as I know he isn't (I might be misinformed, I actually dont know if he's a free lance team member or what not, but if he is the voice of TL, then I am wrong, just let me know about it).
I'm sure there's EG haters out there but don't reduce any criticism to that. If they did sthg some us judge wrong, we're entitled to discuss it (and if we don't have all the info to have a proper judgment, well, it's up to them to remedy to this....until then, it seems few mistakes were made there, why not discuss about them ?)
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On July 23 2011 06:25 xXFireandIceXx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 05:22 integrity wrote:
I just wanted to say that as a fan of Mr. TLO i am very sad to see someone i respect resolve to "Team Bashing" on matters that have nothing to do with him. i understand we all have opinions but /sigh "come on" He can express his opinions just like anyone else. And besides, it's not even that extreme. He' just disspointed in the way this whole thing was handled. I htink a lot of people are.
i have no problem with him expressing his opinion. but as a player i would have expected "team bashing" was beneath him
and as a fan...i thought it was necessary that i let him know
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On July 23 2011 06:32 TheStonerer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 06:25 xXFireandIceXx wrote:On July 23 2011 05:22 integrity wrote:
I just wanted to say that as a fan of Mr. TLO i am very sad to see someone i respect resolve to "Team Bashing" on matters that have nothing to do with him. i understand we all have opinions but /sigh "come on" He can express his opinions just like anyone else. And besides, it's not even that extreme. He' just disspointed in the way this whole thing was handled. I htink a lot of people are. If he was only disappointed in the situation, why did he call EG evil, and not geniuses. I'm pretty sure someone could sue him and win (not that I think he should be sued).
I am of the idea that EG management has to be very angry with TL already for those comments, that only go on top of Tyler's repeated bashing of anything EG does.
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On July 23 2011 06:49 Usagi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 06:32 TheStonerer wrote:On July 23 2011 06:25 xXFireandIceXx wrote:On July 23 2011 05:22 integrity wrote:
I just wanted to say that as a fan of Mr. TLO i am very sad to see someone i respect resolve to "Team Bashing" on matters that have nothing to do with him. i understand we all have opinions but /sigh "come on" He can express his opinions just like anyone else. And besides, it's not even that extreme. He' just disspointed in the way this whole thing was handled. I htink a lot of people are. If he was only disappointed in the situation, why did he call EG evil, and not geniuses. I'm pretty sure someone could sue him and win (not that I think he should be sued). I am of the idea that EG management has to be very angry with TL already for those comments, that only go on top of Tyler's repeated bashing of anything EG does.
Well its like TLO said. If they want to play the bad guy then they better be ready to accept the criticism...
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TLO summing up everybody's thoughts like a boss.
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On July 23 2011 06:46 Eurekastreet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 06:19 VAR1ABLES wrote:
And why are people feeling bad for TSL - you know the team that was founded when coach lee stole players from OGS - when they forced a player out, when he had not signed with EG, but simply told coach lee that he had been contacted by them.
Didn't know about that part but still, 2 wrongs make a right ?
No, but the point is TSL isn't exactly a bastion of freedom and ethics that everyone thinks they are. I feel no love towards them because of how they have treated their own countrymen in the past.
Show nested quote +
ALSO:
Am i the only one who gets pissed when someone says that their twitter is personal and only reflects their opinions when just minutes before they were saying that Sirscoots' twitter was the official word of team EG. You can't have it both ways man.
Why ? Sirscoots is the voice of EG (at least to me, that's the only thing I know about him - and I am probably not the only one) while milkies is the voice of...milkies (same comment). To take another parallel, when incontrol was mod on TL , if some e-drama was taking place in between TL and EG and inc tweeted about it, his opinion would always be the one defending EG - and that's how it should be, it's his job - whereas if another drama was taking place between TL and xxxx, he'd always defend TL if he thought it was right - that's his opinion. You can have it both ways, people have multiple jobs/roles/faces. If milkies was to TL what Nazgul is, then I guess the situation would be different, but as far as I know he isn't (I might be misinformed, I actually dont know if he's a free lance team member or what not, but if he is the voice of TL, then I am wrong, just let me know about it). I'm sure there's EG haters out there but don't reduce any criticism to that. If they did sthg some us judge wrong, we're entitled to discuss it (and if we don't have all the info to have a proper judgment, well, it's up to them to remedy to this....until then, it seems few mistakes were made there, why not discuss about them ?)
The problem is that - to my knowledge - Incontrol's twitter isn't the official voice of EG. Neither is idras, neither is sirscoots. None of their twitters are that of EG's. They're personal. Therefore - by milkis' standard - they can't be considered as "official" and must be considered "personal."
It seems to be a double standard for "translators" or other bit players in the community. They're words arent' to be considered on their personal twitters, but if it's sirscoots - whose been around for 10 years and works for EG - then his word must be the official stance of EG, not just his opinion on the matter.
But maybe that's just me, i like having the same bar set for all people, regardless of what level they serve.
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On July 23 2011 07:06 Tomfour wrote:
TLO summing up everybody's thoughts like a boss.
me =! everybody
Your opinion is not that of everybody, have that clear.
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Thank you TLO. I'm so happy to have my thoughts expressed by someone who people listen to 
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On July 23 2011 07:03 Virtuous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 06:49 Usagi wrote:On July 23 2011 06:32 TheStonerer wrote:On July 23 2011 06:25 xXFireandIceXx wrote:On July 23 2011 05:22 integrity wrote:
I just wanted to say that as a fan of Mr. TLO i am very sad to see someone i respect resolve to "Team Bashing" on matters that have nothing to do with him. i understand we all have opinions but /sigh "come on" He can express his opinions just like anyone else. And besides, it's not even that extreme. He' just disspointed in the way this whole thing was handled. I htink a lot of people are. If he was only disappointed in the situation, why did he call EG evil, and not geniuses. I'm pretty sure someone could sue him and win (not that I think he should be sued). I am of the idea that EG management has to be very angry with TL already for those comments, that only go on top of Tyler's repeated bashing of anything EG does. Well its like TLO said. If they want to play the bad guy then they better be ready to accept the criticism...
Funny thing is TL wasn't very good at accepting that game criticism back.
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I'm with EG on this one. Granted, their PR damage control doesn't seem to be the best, but at its core this whole issue is about EG asking an un-signed player if he wants to sign up with them.
Regardless how people "feel" about EG's approaching a player despite him representing a different team at the time, that's just business. I have my current job because a good friend of mine approached me about working for him instead of my employer at the time. I gave my 2-weeks notice and now enjoy a better job and salary. He didn't have to go to my employer and negotiate terms to let me work for him. This is how non-contract work rolls, regardless of industry. If you want your employee to complete certain obligations/go through negotiations before they can be released, get a contract.
Besides, if anything, I actually think EG's move is good for esports overall. This incident has shone a light on how under-developed the business side of esports really is, and I believe will give a good boot to the butt of those in charge of developing better regulations and rules (e.g. Korea SC2 Player's Association, perhaps?) to create a more developed environment.
In short, if you ("you" meaning these Korean teams and coaches) don't like it, then fix it. Don't get mad at EG for being worlds ahead of you in terms of business management. Catch up: have players you want to keep sign contracts, establish better regulations and rules, get sponsors so you can pay your contracted players. Established sports scenes don't run on good intentions and rainbow unicorns; why are people getting in an uproar when they realize the same applies to esports?
In regards to TLO's OP: I agree that EG needs better PR. They shouldn't be getting overly defensive against a translator; that's just silly and unnecessary. They should just straight-up send a clear apology Milkis' way (assuming they haven't already) and be happy with their acquisition of PuMa.
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EPT
