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TotalBiscuit: An Editorial - Page 4

Blogs > Treetop
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Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
17050 Posts
June 17 2011 06:03 GMT
#61
Something that I never understood was why people didn't simply ignore people they didn't like, enjoy, or agree with. If I don't like a certain player's casting or style, I'm not going to broadcast it to the entire world that I don't like them. It's only going to come out if someone asks me or if an appropriate situation arises. Plastering "I HATE TOTALBISCUIT" everywhere isn't an appropriate situation.
Moderator
jalstar
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States8198 Posts
June 17 2011 06:08 GMT
#62


I really don't get how TB can say that IdrA is a "bronze league caster". Apart from confusing an 8 pylon with a 9 pylon, (it was 8 in BW) IdrA delivers pretty much perfect play-by-play and analysis without relying on a co-caster.

I think what Total is trying to say is that voice matters, and while I agree, and I'd put Day9, Artosis, and Tasteless above IdrA in casting ability, I think that the ability to call a game correctly is far more important.
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
17050 Posts
June 17 2011 06:10 GMT
#63
That's only because you're invested in the game; in terms of bringing outsiders to be interested in SC2, I'd say enthusiasm and voice are much more important than simple dry commentary. Different circumstances require different things.
Moderator
Advocado
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Denmark994 Posts
June 17 2011 06:11 GMT
#64
Fact: Preseting your opinion as a fact does not make it an actual fact. I watch starcraft to get away from the common jocky commentators of football and horseracing.

Don't let every commentator in different sports be the same.

http://www.twitch.tv/advocadosc2
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
June 17 2011 06:12 GMT
#65
On June 17 2011 15:08 jalstar wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW5BYzqSiyw

I really don't get how TB can say that IdrA is a "bronze league caster". Apart from confusing an 8 pylon with a 9 pylon, (it was 8 in BW) IdrA delivers pretty much perfect play-by-play and analysis without relying on a co-caster.

I think what Total is trying to say is that voice matters, and while I agree, and I'd put Day9, Artosis, and Tasteless above IdrA in casting ability, I think that the ability to call a game correctly is far more important.


I think when people listen to idra, they're listening with another intent than with TB. While that's obvious, there is seriously no level of excitement or interest in the game, but rather the bare bones of the game. When idra talks, he preemptively says what's going to happen before it even does and in most cases, he's right. This gives him even more time to talk why that happen and what should have been done.

How many casters can do that and from idra's equal or similar experience?
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Keldrath
Profile Joined July 2010
United States449 Posts
June 17 2011 07:16 GMT
#66
well im a huge fan of both of them regardless of their interpersonal issues.

i think people overthink TB a bit too much. hes a persona, he shouldnt be taken as seriously as he is all the time.
If you want peace... prepare for war.
Deleted User 101379
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
4849 Posts
June 17 2011 15:48 GMT
#67
On June 17 2011 15:08 jalstar wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW5BYzqSiyw


I really don't get how TB can say that IdrA is a "bronze league caster". Apart from confusing an 8 pylon with a 9 pylon, (it was 8 in BW) IdrA delivers pretty much perfect play-by-play and analysis without relying on a co-caster.

I think what Total is trying to say is that voice matters, and while I agree, and I'd put Day9, Artosis, and Tasteless above IdrA in casting ability, I think that the ability to call a game correctly is far more important.


It's pure analysis, there is no play-by-play at all. It lacks any energy in that cast, all it has is IdrAs monotone voice lulling you to sleep with his (still very precise and excellent) analysis.

A perfect cast needs both energy and analysis, TB provides purely the first part, IdrA purely the second. Which part you prefer and which part you cannot live without is a personal preference, but of course it's always best if both exist. I can do without analysis as long as there is a lot of energy, others can do without energy as long as there is analysis...
Xaga
Profile Joined June 2010
United States163 Posts
June 17 2011 17:09 GMT
#68
While I think both Idra and TB shouldn't be having this fight, I have to say TB is handling this much worse than Idra. I know Idra always trash talks people, but that doesn't excuse him for this.

Both of these guys say the other is a bad caster (at least that's what I took from this), but how can you determine if they're bad? They're both considered to be good casters, but it's based entirely on preference. Their style of casting is completely different. They both have their pros and cons for the viewer, it all comes down to what you want.

The problem I have with TB is how he responds to the people who don't like him, compared to how Idra deals with it. Idra has had haters for years, but rarely, if ever, does he feel the need to defend himself. He knows he's good, and that's enough for him.

TB feels the need to come on the forums and pick out the very few posts people make attacking him and insult that poster relentlessly. Why? You ignore the 50 posts of people complimenting you, and respond to the 2 people who don't like you. Why ignore your fans for someone who doesn't like you? You're not going to persuade someone to change their opinion on you by swearing at them and calling them stupid, you're just hurting your own image.
I don't understand this at all...
Whole
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States6046 Posts
June 17 2011 17:44 GMT
#69
On June 18 2011 00:48 Morfildur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2011 15:08 jalstar wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW5BYzqSiyw


I really don't get how TB can say that IdrA is a "bronze league caster". Apart from confusing an 8 pylon with a 9 pylon, (it was 8 in BW) IdrA delivers pretty much perfect play-by-play and analysis without relying on a co-caster.

I think what Total is trying to say is that voice matters, and while I agree, and I'd put Day9, Artosis, and Tasteless above IdrA in casting ability, I think that the ability to call a game correctly is far more important.


It's pure analysis, there is no play-by-play at all. It lacks any energy in that cast, all it has is IdrAs monotone voice lulling you to sleep with his (still very precise and excellent) analysis.

A perfect cast needs both energy and analysis, TB provides purely the first part, IdrA purely the second. Which part you prefer and which part you cannot live without is a personal preference, but of course it's always best if both exist. I can do without analysis as long as there is a lot of energy, others can do without energy as long as there is analysis...

You can't really call that a cast though. It was intended to be a pure analytical replay review. Not saying that his casting is very exciting, but it has a little more energy when he does the EG Master's Cup.
RaLakedaimon
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1564 Posts
June 17 2011 18:21 GMT
#70
Nice writeup and I agree with pretty much all of it since he has done great work on many games. Before he got into SC2 I watched him on youtube doing WoW videos and I don't even play WoW but yet I watched just because the personality he brought into the videos. He's great at what he does and more power to the guy, if he had all day to just dedicate to learning SC strategy etc I'm sure more would be into him. But as is I'm happy with the content he delivers and his casting is excellent and exiting. I'm glad we have TB around and I hope he sticks with SC2 even though people talk so much trash, hes a great member of the community.
Whole
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States6046 Posts
June 18 2011 20:06 GMT
#71
TB found a new cocaster...OGSMC!
Redmark
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada2129 Posts
June 18 2011 20:56 GMT
#72
On June 18 2011 02:09 Xaga wrote:
While I think both Idra and TB shouldn't be having this fight, I have to say TB is handling this much worse than Idra. I know Idra always trash talks people, but that doesn't excuse him for this.

Both of these guys say the other is a bad caster (at least that's what I took from this), but how can you determine if they're bad? They're both considered to be good casters, but it's based entirely on preference. Their style of casting is completely different. They both have their pros and cons for the viewer, it all comes down to what you want.

The problem I have with TB is how he responds to the people who don't like him, compared to how Idra deals with it. Idra has had haters for years, but rarely, if ever, does he feel the need to defend himself. He knows he's good, and that's enough for him.

TB feels the need to come on the forums and pick out the very few posts people make attacking him and insult that poster relentlessly. Why? You ignore the 50 posts of people complimenting you, and respond to the 2 people who don't like you. Why ignore your fans for someone who doesn't like you? You're not going to persuade someone to change their opinion on you by swearing at them and calling them stupid, you're just hurting your own image.
I don't understand this at all...

Huh? How many times has Idra gotten banned again?
They both respond to haters more than they should, just Idra does passive aggression and TB does plain aggression.
Draxtier
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada10 Posts
June 28 2011 23:29 GMT
#73
Although I find it all to be kind of silly, I think some rivalries are ultimately good for the SC2 community, and so long as it doesn't go too far, this is one of them. As destructive as they sound sometimes, rivalries between prominent personalities in the SC2 community add drama, generate a lot of interest and increase the emotional investment viewers have in the sport. Idra is far and away the most widely known and inflammatory player of SC2 in North America. Some people love him, some people hate him, but we all have feelings about him one way or another, and that's part of why we watch.

The entire industry built up around professional wrestling is about creating iconic characters that the audience will feel an emotional attachment toward, then pitting them against one another. In wrestling there are heroic figures, their are villains, and there are oddballs, all of which are fabricated purely for our entertainment. The more the audience responds to a wrestler, regardless of whether that response is positive or negative, the more successful they are since success and failure are measured by the size and passion of the audience, since that's the source of revenue.

I don't know how much of this feud is legitimate or fabricated, but just like rivalries between pro wrestlers, the rivalry between Idra and TotalBiscuit (or Idra and a long list of others) makes for a larger and more passionate audience, which is also the source of revenue for everyone involved in Starcraft II professionally.

The pitfall we have to avoid in esports is the possibility that the drama surrounding the competition overshadows the competition itself, which could lead to the same sort of fabricated performance and fake competition that is pro wrestling.

At the other end of the spectrum there is pure competition without any sort of emotional connection between the participants and their audience. This is what you have when you watch two people you've never heard of play, and you have no emotional investment in the outcome. Although there are purists who might think this is the perfect expression of competition, it's very bad for the potential success of a sport that depends on the size and passion of its audience for revenue. A feeling of empathy with competitors and an emotional investment in their success or failure is what makes a lot of people watch.

The trouble we're also running in to here is that some of the personalities involved in Starcraft II have tremendous influence over the opinions of their fans. If Idra says he hates someone, a horde of fanboys descend upon to that issue and spew out their own opinions with even greater vehemence and vitriol. People who might otherwise have failed to notice Idra's rival even exists suddenly have passionate feelings about them or what they stand for. To an extent, exercising that influence is fine. It's natural. It's also to be expected given the age of most SC2 fans, but there's a point where that influence can become very harmful if it's exercised carelessly.

To illustrate that point; on one of the Day[9] dailies, I remember seeing a player in the lower leagues flame Day9 in the game of his that was shown on a funday monday. Sean, being the awesome guy that he is, laughed it off and then went to great lengths to tell his fans that the guy is perfectly entitled to his opinion and then to explicitly encourage them to be friendly and polite to this guy if they ever met him on the ladder. If he hadn't done that, I don't doubt there could have been a tremendous backlash against some poor kid. His popularity gives Day9 that sort of influence.

Their popularity give Idra and TotalBiscuit the same sort of influence, but so long as they're only picking on other people who can take it, like one another, let the fans be fans and follow the drama like it actually matters, which it doesn't... but it's good for espoorts!
WolfgangKies
Profile Joined June 2011
25 Posts
June 29 2011 15:24 GMT
#74
On June 29 2011 08:29 Draxtier wrote:
Although I find it all to be kind of silly, I think some rivalries are ultimately good for the SC2 community, and so long as it doesn't go too far, this is one of them. As destructive as they sound sometimes, rivalries between prominent personalities in the SC2 community add drama, generate a lot of interest and increase the emotional investment viewers have in the sport. Idra is far and away the most widely known and inflammatory player of SC2 in North America. Some people love him, some people hate him, but we all have feelings about him one way or another, and that's part of why we watch.

The entire industry built up around professional wrestling is about creating iconic characters that the audience will feel an emotional attachment toward, then pitting them against one another. In wrestling there are heroic figures, their are villains, and there are oddballs, all of which are fabricated purely for our entertainment. The more the audience responds to a wrestler, regardless of whether that response is positive or negative, the more successful they are since success and failure are measured by the size and passion of the audience, since that's the source of revenue.

I don't know how much of this feud is legitimate or fabricated, but just like rivalries between pro wrestlers, the rivalry between Idra and TotalBiscuit (or Idra and a long list of others) makes for a larger and more passionate audience, which is also the source of revenue for everyone involved in Starcraft II professionally.

The pitfall we have to avoid in esports is the possibility that the drama surrounding the competition overshadows the competition itself, which could lead to the same sort of fabricated performance and fake competition that is pro wrestling.

At the other end of the spectrum there is pure competition without any sort of emotional connection between the participants and their audience. This is what you have when you watch two people you've never heard of play, and you have no emotional investment in the outcome. Although there are purists who might think this is the perfect expression of competition, it's very bad for the potential success of a sport that depends on the size and passion of its audience for revenue. A feeling of empathy with competitors and an emotional investment in their success or failure is what makes a lot of people watch.

The trouble we're also running in to here is that some of the personalities involved in Starcraft II have tremendous influence over the opinions of their fans. If Idra says he hates someone, a horde of fanboys descend upon to that issue and spew out their own opinions with even greater vehemence and vitriol. People who might otherwise have failed to notice Idra's rival even exists suddenly have passionate feelings about them or what they stand for. To an extent, exercising that influence is fine. It's natural. It's also to be expected given the age of most SC2 fans, but there's a point where that influence can become very harmful if it's exercised carelessly.

To illustrate that point; on one of the Day[9] dailies, I remember seeing a player in the lower leagues flame Day9 in the game of his that was shown on a funday monday. Sean, being the awesome guy that he is, laughed it off and then went to great lengths to tell his fans that the guy is perfectly entitled to his opinion and then to explicitly encourage them to be friendly and polite to this guy if they ever met him on the ladder. If he hadn't done that, I don't doubt there could have been a tremendous backlash against some poor kid. His popularity gives Day9 that sort of influence.

Their popularity give Idra and TotalBiscuit the same sort of influence, but so long as they're only picking on other people who can take it, like one another, let the fans be fans and follow the drama like it actually matters, which it doesn't... but it's good for espoorts!


This is probably the best post regarding the subject, and also the best way to look at the whole controversy/rivalry (whatever you want to call it) thing between Totalbiscuit and Idra or rather at any dispute of this sort.
All that it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing
FreshNoThyme
Profile Joined March 2008
United States356 Posts
June 29 2011 22:33 GMT
#75
I think the topic of TB has been covered extensively here, so I'll just give a quick suggestion:

If you want to see the epitome of English eSports casting, look back into some old Counter-Strike 1.5-1.6 CPLs and large LANs. Few casters today (other than Tastosis) come close. I was opposed to watching other people play matches (essentially, opposed to following eSports) until I witnessed the brilliant casting that lasted over 5 years in the CS scene.

I'm sure djwheat can give you guys some insight into that. GotFrag coverage was legendary.
CrewelTee
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada20 Posts
July 15 2011 05:31 GMT
#76
Dont see how you can expect TB to know everything about SC it takes alot of time to get really good at the game and he just doesnt have the free time with all the content he posts daily.
If the glove dont fit youre full of shit
Shockk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany2269 Posts
July 15 2011 06:30 GMT
#77
Draxtier's well-written post is a nice summary of why rivalries can actually good, but:

The amount of hate specifically directed towards TotalBiscuit on this forum and elsewhere is ridiculous.This doesn't even factor in the recent issue with IdrA. TB seems to be getting flak at every opportunity for no apparent reason, and I don't see this happening with other casters or commentators. There are others with a unique style, others that are as outspoken as he is, but he's in a unique situation where loads of people will start bashing him.

Why? He's an excellent caster, regardless of whether you like his style or not. I happen to enjoy his work, others may not and that's ok, but why all the hate? I don't get it. As far as I know, he hasn't done anything that made him deserve this kind of special negative attention, as he's done a lot of great commentation over the time he's been active for / in SC2. He isn't only passionate aboout gaming, but he's also trained in what he's doing and good at it as well. This is a rare combination that few other casters can offer. Like him or not, you have to admit that.

Long story short, if you don't like him, ignore him, but respect what he does. He hasn't deserved this special treatment of bashing exclusively directed towards him.
Deleted User 101379
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
4849 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-15 06:54:25
July 15 2011 06:53 GMT
#78
On July 15 2011 15:30 Shockk wrote:
Draxtier's well-written post is a nice summary of why rivalries can actually good, but:

The amount of hate specifically directed towards TotalBiscuit on this forum and elsewhere is ridiculous.This doesn't even factor in the recent issue with IdrA. TB seems to be getting flak at every opportunity for no apparent reason, and I don't see this happening with other casters or commentators. There are others with a unique style, others that are as outspoken as he is, but he's in a unique situation where loads of people will start bashing him.

Why? He's an excellent caster, regardless of whether you like his style or not. I happen to enjoy his work, others may not and that's ok, but why all the hate? I don't get it. As far as I know, he hasn't done anything that made him deserve this kind of special negative attention, as he's done a lot of great commentation over the time he's been active for / in SC2. He isn't only passionate aboout gaming, but he's also trained in what he's doing and good at it as well. This is a rare combination that few other casters can offer. Like him or not, you have to admit that.

Long story short, if you don't like him, ignore him, but respect what he does. He hasn't deserved this special treatment of bashing exclusively directed towards him.


<sarcasm>
But he is hurting ESPORTS!
</sarcasm>

Anyways, i agree, he seems to recieve a lot of undeserved hate. Yes, he doesn't know as much about the game as Day9 and Yes, he is not Tastosis, but he is still a caster that introduces a lot of people to the SC2 scene. If you don't like him, ignore him. If he casts your favourite players in a tournament... well, mute him or just endure it.

TB might recieve more hate than other pure play-by-play casters because he's casting in a lot more of the big tournaments and is a lot more active in the scene - which IMHO is great, though a lot of the analysis-purists would rather have him disappear completely. TB tries to learn and he is really improving, but SC2 is just a sidejob, he doesn't have the time to practice until he is grandmasters.

He is still contributing as much as he can to the scene, like the tournament he held with the revenue from his stream or pointing people to the more advanced casters like Day[9] (He even says "if you want to donate me, don't, donate to Day9"... how many others do that?)

Just because he is not the right caster for YOU doesn't mean he has no right to be a caster at all.

If you want to flame any caster, flame me, because i'm neither entertaining _nor_ do i have game knowledge and i still dared to cast games (and maybe i'd get more than 5 subscribers )
phiinix
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1169 Posts
July 15 2011 07:40 GMT
#79
i like tb but you're going to state "facts", make sure they're "facts". I ****** hate people who try to use literal description words to make a point, only to be wrong. (my head blew up, literally)
DystopiaX
Profile Joined October 2010
United States16236 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-15 08:24:33
July 15 2011 08:20 GMT
#80
On June 17 2011 15:12 Torte de Lini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2011 15:08 jalstar wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW5BYzqSiyw

I really don't get how TB can say that IdrA is a "bronze league caster". Apart from confusing an 8 pylon with a 9 pylon, (it was 8 in BW) IdrA delivers pretty much perfect play-by-play and analysis without relying on a co-caster.

I think what Total is trying to say is that voice matters, and while I agree, and I'd put Day9, Artosis, and Tasteless above IdrA in casting ability, I think that the ability to call a game correctly is far more important.


I think when people listen to idra, they're listening with another intent than with TB. While that's obvious, there is seriously no level of excitement or interest in the game, but rather the bare bones of the game. When idra talks, he preemptively says what's going to happen before it even does and in most cases, he's right. This gives him even more time to talk why that happen and what should have been done.

How many casters can do that and from idra's equal or similar experience?

I think it's personal preference. TB's coming at it from a very TB-style angle- it's not so much about analysis and game knowledge as it is having a good sounding voice and excitement/hype, whereas IdrA is coming at it the way Idra comes at everything- from a knowledge based, fuck-all-else perspective. Personally I like the IdrA style better because many people have the TB-like quality of being able to shout about things, but few people know the game as well as IdrA does, so what he brings into a cast is unique, which is his unique game knowledge. In that sense, I would say TB is wrong that he's a "bronze league caster", he would be if TB's style is all that mattered in casting, but it doesn't, and IdrA makes for a great analytical caster and caster in general even though he doesn't have an awesome accent or the willingness to shout into his mike whenever units attack each other.

edit- that being said, what annoys me about Totalbiscuit isn't his casting. I've admitted I don't like that, and it's not a problem for me. I'm not going around bitching about it or yelling on forums about how shit he is. His style isn't the kind of casting I'm looking for, and that's fine. The problem I have with him is that he insists on jumping on twitter or whatever forum/thread insulted him latest and getting into a pissing match with whoever called him out. Anyone who is as widely viewed as Totalbiscuit is going to have haters, but many people who are as popular as him have learned to ignore the haters- Day9, for example, says that he never posts or even views forums anymore cause it's not really worth his time. However, TB insists on running his mouth on twitter or TL and yelling at/arguing with whoever insulted him latest. Some people may say ignore that too, but it's been enough non-TB related threads that that's not really feasible. TB haters should shut up, I agree, but TB should stop responding to haters as well. I get the whole forum-interaction thing, but interacting with fans and arguing with trolls and haters are two separate things.
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