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On July 04 2010 13:00 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 10:40 baller wrote:On July 04 2010 09:59 Malgrif wrote:On July 04 2010 09:34 Chill wrote:On July 04 2010 08:42 Malgrif wrote:
so he got baned for fooling everyone? this hardly seems justified. While I appreciate your well-thought out criticism which ignores the many explanations that have given and is based purely on assumption, I am going to have to maintain with my current course of action. Should this inconvenience you, please contact Kennigit via PM. he was baned because he carried on with his story and you didn't like that he was telling a fib. you used the excuse that "this" was the final straw and that he had a history of temp bans and bad posts, and his 4k post count was a bunch of junk to make a justification of why he was baned. however, no where in the rules of the site have i ever read that you can be banned for telling a lie or causing mass deception, you bent the rules as you saw fit and made an excuse for doing it. sure people agree with you, they view it as "catching the bad guy!, the justice hammer wins again!" but honestly there was no justice here, he broke no rule. maybe a temporary ban or a chance at a public apology for not listening to a moderator, but a perma ban for sharing a made up story is absurd. i will make an analogy that may help u understand better lets say theres a real life party. if ur like wuh?? a party is where people assemble to drink and talk with each other. ok so ur going to a party, and it is hosted by steve liquid and his friends. steve liquid has a lot of friends. lets say one of the kids going is named Xero. the party runs out of beer, and Xero says hes goin out to get some beer. but he doesn't actually get any beer. he lied. he lied to the party. so steve liquid says, get out, we dont want liars at our party. then someone named malcom grif says, totally unfair, theres no rule at the party saying u cant lie about mass deception. now, imagine urself as malcom grif, and "Xero" as dream)xero, and "steve liquid's party" as team liquid forums. do u see now? "oh shit baller that makes so much sense" u say? ur welcome. this is really dumb, sorry, but i care whether there's beer at a party a bit more than whether someone i don't know is telling the truth about a story. i'd imagine most people feel the same.
so what ur saying is, u'd rather surround urself with liars? has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like? please.
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Osaka27139 Posts
On July 04 2010 13:04 Malgrif wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 12:58 Manifesto7 wrote:On July 04 2010 11:04 Malgrif wrote:On July 04 2010 10:28 Chill wrote:On July 04 2010 09:59 Malgrif wrote:On July 04 2010 09:34 Chill wrote:On July 04 2010 08:42 Malgrif wrote:
so he got baned for fooling everyone? this hardly seems justified. While I appreciate your well-thought out criticism which ignores the many explanations that have given and is based purely on assumption, I am going to have to maintain with my current course of action. Should this inconvenience you, please contact Kennigit via PM. he was baned because he carried on with his story and you didn't like that he was telling a fib. you used the excuse that "this" was the final straw and that he had a history of temp bans and bad posts, and his 4k post count was a bunch of junk to make a justification of why he was baned. however, no where in the rules of the site have i ever read that you can be banned for telling a lie or causing mass deception, you bent the rules as you saw fit and made an excuse for doing it. sure people agree with you, they view it as "catching the bad guy!, the justice hammer wins again!" but honestly there was no justice here, he broke no rule. maybe a temporary ban or a chance at a public apology for not listening to a moderator, but a perma ban for sharing a made up story is absurd. There is no absolute ruleset as you imply here, so there was nothing to bend. Common sense supersedes all guidelines that we have laid out. Would you be happy with someone who lied to you for 3 days? Just act here like you're among friends. There are no explicit rules against starting websites to steal credit card numbers either. There are no explicit rules against posting as a hot girl and then releasing all the PMs you get. There are no explicit rules against a lot of things, but clearly you can see how they aren't conducive to a strong community. My logic is very clearly laid out; Don't call it absurd simply because you following another line of subjective reasoning. I understand why you and most of the community would be upset over his actions, but with all due respect, your reasoning is exactly why a perma ban is too harsh. I think you would agree with me if I suggest that common sense from our perspective says that he was a douche bag for what he did and this would mean that he deserves some sort of punishment. However, it was apparent from his actions that his common sense was telling him to defend his story and that he wasn't breaking any explicit rules on the website by doing so. I agree that he should have taken your pm more seriously, but again from his response it appears as if he didn't think the validity of his story was the issue at hand. If he is sorry for his actions and understands why what he did was wrong from our perspective after he was caught, it would stand to reason to give him another chance and a lighter punishment, as no one knew what the consequences of his previous actions would be(since there were no explicit rules against this). this would be more justified then blindly banning someone from only one point of view. Banning people because we believe that they're being douche bags for the sake of being douche bags is both arrogant and abusive. Of course the first rule states that you can ban people however you see fit, but I believe that not allowing them to argue their stance is even less conducive to a strong community than breaking a rule based solely on a moderators judgement. On the off chance that you aren't just arguing for the sake of arguing, there is a long convention on teamliquid for banning people that tell made up bullshit stories. So while it may not be explicitly stated in the rules in the manner that you would like, it is a social norm that has been reinforced for years. Because you are (maybe) new to TL means that you are not aware of these social norms. It also means that maybe it isn't your place to argue this ban until you learn how TL society works. And banning people for being a douchebag is not arrogant. Don't be a douchebag. I'll patiently observe it's consistency. and I agree if they themselves believe they are douche bags then the ban is warranted, but if not then it should be debatable.
Here is some background reading for you while you wait.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=44011
Here is what I wrote there:
Much of this community is based upon real friendships, it cannot survive otherwise. It is too old. The mods at TL are not simply staff at a website, but are friends who share real feelings and spend time together. The people in clans like .smi are not together only because of a common game, they game together because they form a bond that could exist outside the game. Even this forum, which has many members no longer interested in the game of BW, still hangs together because people form a bond. When one person actively creates those bonds using lies, people get hurt. Be true to yourself online, and if you meet somebody who seems too good to be true, take it with a grain of salt.
Observing before arguing is a position that you may want to try in the future.
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On July 04 2010 13:01 djcube wrote:
"From the facts we know otherwise?" Yeah, that's because he CONTINUED on with his crap-story that Chill banned him on the spot. A mod told him to quit bullshitting and he didn't. End of story.
But man you sure are naive. People must lie to you straight through their teeth and you don't bat an eye. I really need to stop posting now b/c I've actually gotten irate by arguing with a brick wall. you aren't aware of the facts i see, a mod told him if he's lying he's baned. not to quit bullshitting or he'll get baned. please don't call me a brick wall when you don't even have the slightest idea of what i'm arguing.
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a ban is justifiable, that was a cruel thing to do against your gamerbros. that beeing said, i believe that he didnt want to hurt any feelings, just share a dream he dreams too often. but a permban over some interesting avant garde emotional trolling - i disagree wholeheartedly. it seems like there is way too much ego involved. we all dream, especially xero.. falling feels like flying, until you hit the ground.
song: + Show Spoiler +
the party analogy is ok, but perm ban is like socially killing him, because everybody is always at steve liquid's party... even though we have a strong community, it is still the internet. normally i would not care, but tl is a special place, and special places can be a good thing - if the rulers dont let it go their heads... i also found the foucalt ban disturbing. he is a sociologist, and its a good thing we have people trying to understand and criticize the way we humans treat eachother...
i've always respected chill, but lately i feel he has been unreasonable. did focault make him feel guilty? did xero made him feel sad? imho giving basic animalistic instincts much power in decisions should be avoided.
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Osaka27139 Posts
Chill is a wild beast that the rest of the staff cannot control.
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On July 04 2010 13:07 Malgrif wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 13:01 djcube wrote:
"From the facts we know otherwise?" Yeah, that's because he CONTINUED on with his crap-story that Chill banned him on the spot. A mod told him to quit bullshitting and he didn't. End of story.
But man you sure are naive. People must lie to you straight through their teeth and you don't bat an eye. I really need to stop posting now b/c I've actually gotten irate by arguing with a brick wall. you aren't aware of the facts i see, a mod told him if he's lying he's baned. not to quit bullshitting or he'll get baned. please don't call me a brick wall when you don't even have the slightest idea of what i'm arguing.
So you honestly think it was a good idea that he continued adding on to a string of lies well after a mod told him he'd be banned if the story was false? The moment Chill told him he'd be banned if the story was a lie, he was well aware of the consequences, yet he still continued.
I'm not trying to play the mod here nor do I want to, but I don't see how direct disregard/disobedience to a mod doesn't qualify as a bannable offense.
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he was banned no matter what if he was lying under any circumstances
there isn't really anything to question.
if you haven't read the zia story, read it. if you read the zia story, shame on you for still thinking otherwise. i don't want to be part of a forum of liars.
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On July 04 2010 13:06 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 13:04 Malgrif wrote:On July 04 2010 12:58 Manifesto7 wrote:On July 04 2010 11:04 Malgrif wrote:On July 04 2010 10:28 Chill wrote:On July 04 2010 09:59 Malgrif wrote:On July 04 2010 09:34 Chill wrote:On July 04 2010 08:42 Malgrif wrote:
so he got baned for fooling everyone? this hardly seems justified. While I appreciate your well-thought out criticism which ignores the many explanations that have given and is based purely on assumption, I am going to have to maintain with my current course of action. Should this inconvenience you, please contact Kennigit via PM. he was baned because he carried on with his story and you didn't like that he was telling a fib. you used the excuse that "this" was the final straw and that he had a history of temp bans and bad posts, and his 4k post count was a bunch of junk to make a justification of why he was baned. however, no where in the rules of the site have i ever read that you can be banned for telling a lie or causing mass deception, you bent the rules as you saw fit and made an excuse for doing it. sure people agree with you, they view it as "catching the bad guy!, the justice hammer wins again!" but honestly there was no justice here, he broke no rule. maybe a temporary ban or a chance at a public apology for not listening to a moderator, but a perma ban for sharing a made up story is absurd. There is no absolute ruleset as you imply here, so there was nothing to bend. Common sense supersedes all guidelines that we have laid out. Would you be happy with someone who lied to you for 3 days? Just act here like you're among friends. There are no explicit rules against starting websites to steal credit card numbers either. There are no explicit rules against posting as a hot girl and then releasing all the PMs you get. There are no explicit rules against a lot of things, but clearly you can see how they aren't conducive to a strong community. My logic is very clearly laid out; Don't call it absurd simply because you following another line of subjective reasoning. I understand why you and most of the community would be upset over his actions, but with all due respect, your reasoning is exactly why a perma ban is too harsh. I think you would agree with me if I suggest that common sense from our perspective says that he was a douche bag for what he did and this would mean that he deserves some sort of punishment. However, it was apparent from his actions that his common sense was telling him to defend his story and that he wasn't breaking any explicit rules on the website by doing so. I agree that he should have taken your pm more seriously, but again from his response it appears as if he didn't think the validity of his story was the issue at hand. If he is sorry for his actions and understands why what he did was wrong from our perspective after he was caught, it would stand to reason to give him another chance and a lighter punishment, as no one knew what the consequences of his previous actions would be(since there were no explicit rules against this). this would be more justified then blindly banning someone from only one point of view. Banning people because we believe that they're being douche bags for the sake of being douche bags is both arrogant and abusive. Of course the first rule states that you can ban people however you see fit, but I believe that not allowing them to argue their stance is even less conducive to a strong community than breaking a rule based solely on a moderators judgement. On the off chance that you aren't just arguing for the sake of arguing, there is a long convention on teamliquid for banning people that tell made up bullshit stories. So while it may not be explicitly stated in the rules in the manner that you would like, it is a social norm that has been reinforced for years. Because you are (maybe) new to TL means that you are not aware of these social norms. It also means that maybe it isn't your place to argue this ban until you learn how TL society works. And banning people for being a douchebag is not arrogant. Don't be a douchebag. I'll patiently observe it's consistency. and I agree if they themselves believe they are douche bags then the ban is warranted, but if not then it should be debatable. Here is some background reading for you while you wait. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=44011Here is what I wrote there: Show nested quote +Much of this community is based upon real friendships, it cannot survive otherwise. It is too old. The mods at TL are not simply staff at a website, but are friends who share real feelings and spend time together. The people in clans like .smi are not together only because of a common game, they game together because they form a bond that could exist outside the game. Even this forum, which has many members no longer interested in the game of BW, still hangs together because people form a bond. When one person actively creates those bonds using lies, people get hurt. Be true to yourself online, and if you meet somebody who seems too good to be true, take it with a grain of salt. Observing before arguing is a position that you may want to try in the future. I understand the point you're trying to make, and I will refrain from being too critical in any sequential posts regarding the unwritten rules of tl. I also agree with what you have written, but I don't believe that what xero did is even close to the same magnitude as this zia character. you even wrote
+ Show Spoiler + Had IcedEarth been only at TL, it may have been let go.
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Malgrif, your stubbornness inspires me.
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He isn't banned because he told a bullshit story insomuch as he deliberately disregarded Chill's warning, which is never a wise thing to do ^^
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On July 04 2010 13:01 Malgrif wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 12:54 mainerd wrote:On July 04 2010 12:47 Malgrif wrote:
trying to gain attention through lying about something is being a douche bag? jeez you judge people too harshly, look around you, people do it all the time.
depends on who you choose to surround yourself with.. bold faced liars?? knowing who to trust when and knowing when allowing people to get away with stuff is better then challenging everyone. know when to fight and know when to let things go. (this really has nothing to do with the matter at hand) that's just my philosophy about how to handle people and i'm sure most of you will say that you don't surround yourself with liars, and that in itself, not to be cliche, is a lie.
you and i have different standards i suppose. i've never been able to get along with someone after finding out they were dishonest to me to the degree op was(and elaborating for days on it, thats O.o). you can argue everyone is dishonest in their own way, but not everyone creates intricate fabrications at the expense of others. that is not a common trait among all humans.
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On July 04 2010 13:05 baller wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 13:00 jalstar wrote:On July 04 2010 10:40 baller wrote:On July 04 2010 09:59 Malgrif wrote:On July 04 2010 09:34 Chill wrote:On July 04 2010 08:42 Malgrif wrote:
so he got baned for fooling everyone? this hardly seems justified. While I appreciate your well-thought out criticism which ignores the many explanations that have given and is based purely on assumption, I am going to have to maintain with my current course of action. Should this inconvenience you, please contact Kennigit via PM. he was baned because he carried on with his story and you didn't like that he was telling a fib. you used the excuse that "this" was the final straw and that he had a history of temp bans and bad posts, and his 4k post count was a bunch of junk to make a justification of why he was baned. however, no where in the rules of the site have i ever read that you can be banned for telling a lie or causing mass deception, you bent the rules as you saw fit and made an excuse for doing it. sure people agree with you, they view it as "catching the bad guy!, the justice hammer wins again!" but honestly there was no justice here, he broke no rule. maybe a temporary ban or a chance at a public apology for not listening to a moderator, but a perma ban for sharing a made up story is absurd. i will make an analogy that may help u understand better lets say theres a real life party. if ur like wuh?? a party is where people assemble to drink and talk with each other. ok so ur going to a party, and it is hosted by steve liquid and his friends. steve liquid has a lot of friends. lets say one of the kids going is named Xero. the party runs out of beer, and Xero says hes goin out to get some beer. but he doesn't actually get any beer. he lied. he lied to the party. so steve liquid says, get out, we dont want liars at our party. then someone named malcom grif says, totally unfair, theres no rule at the party saying u cant lie about mass deception. now, imagine urself as malcom grif, and "Xero" as dream)xero, and "steve liquid's party" as team liquid forums. do u see now? "oh shit baller that makes so much sense" u say? ur welcome. this is really dumb, sorry, but i care whether there's beer at a party a bit more than whether someone i don't know is telling the truth about a story. i'd imagine most people feel the same. so what ur saying is, u'd rather surround urself with liars? has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like? please.
the ban is acceptable because of the scale, if he had just said, hey i got laid last night, lol jk no i didn't, then there wouldn't have been a ban.
"i will bring beer to a party" is a worse lie than "i just got laid" by the way, dunno why you can't tell the difference.
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Calgary25977 Posts
On July 04 2010 13:32 Elegy wrote:
He isn't banned because he told a bullshit story insomuch as he deliberately disregarded Chill's warning, which is never a wise thing to do ^^
It's a combination of both.
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I don't see how this is comparable. If a real-life friend who was supposedly female and handicapped turned out to be neither, I would no longer be friends with them. Has anyone really disowned a friend because they lied about getting some?
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On July 04 2010 13:33 mainerd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 13:01 Malgrif wrote:On July 04 2010 12:54 mainerd wrote:On July 04 2010 12:47 Malgrif wrote:
trying to gain attention through lying about something is being a douche bag? jeez you judge people too harshly, look around you, people do it all the time.
depends on who you choose to surround yourself with.. bold faced liars?? knowing who to trust when and knowing when allowing people to get away with stuff is better then challenging everyone. know when to fight and know when to let things go. (this really has nothing to do with the matter at hand) that's just my philosophy about how to handle people and i'm sure most of you will say that you don't surround yourself with liars, and that in itself, not to be cliche, is a lie. you and i have different standards i suppose. i've never been able to get along with someone after finding out they were dishonest to me to the degree op was(and elaborating for days on it, thats O.o). you can argue everyone is dishonest in their own way, but not everyone creates intricate fabrications at the expense of others. that is not a common trait among all humans.
i disagree, people make up wild stories that don't happen all the time. if the story isn't completely made up it might be greatly exaggerated, which is a common trait among humans.
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On July 04 2010 13:45 jalstar wrote:I don't see how this is comparable. If a real-life friend who was supposedly female and handicapped turned out to be neither, I would no longer be friends with them. Has anyone really disowned a friend because they lied about getting some?
I get what you're saying, but that's not the really the right context in this case. It seems like a lot of people were "emotionally involved" and rooting for this guy; it wasn't a simple matter of just telling your friend, "hey, I got laid,"
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On July 04 2010 13:56 djcube wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 13:45 jalstar wrote:I don't see how this is comparable. If a real-life friend who was supposedly female and handicapped turned out to be neither, I would no longer be friends with them. Has anyone really disowned a friend because they lied about getting some? I get what you're saying, but that's not the really the right context in this case. It seems like a lot of people were "emotionally involved" and rooting for this guy; it wasn't a simple matter of just telling your friend, "hey, I got laid,"
Right, and that's why banning him was the right decision, it's malicious to try to get the community emotionally involved like that. I'm just saying that comparing to someone saying they're the opposite gender and a paraplegic is a bit silly, these are two different scales.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On July 04 2010 13:02 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 13:00 jalstar wrote:On July 04 2010 10:40 baller wrote:On July 04 2010 09:59 Malgrif wrote:On July 04 2010 09:34 Chill wrote:On July 04 2010 08:42 Malgrif wrote:
so he got baned for fooling everyone? this hardly seems justified. While I appreciate your well-thought out criticism which ignores the many explanations that have given and is based purely on assumption, I am going to have to maintain with my current course of action. Should this inconvenience you, please contact Kennigit via PM. he was baned because he carried on with his story and you didn't like that he was telling a fib. you used the excuse that "this" was the final straw and that he had a history of temp bans and bad posts, and his 4k post count was a bunch of junk to make a justification of why he was baned. however, no where in the rules of the site have i ever read that you can be banned for telling a lie or causing mass deception, you bent the rules as you saw fit and made an excuse for doing it. sure people agree with you, they view it as "catching the bad guy!, the justice hammer wins again!" but honestly there was no justice here, he broke no rule. maybe a temporary ban or a chance at a public apology for not listening to a moderator, but a perma ban for sharing a made up story is absurd. i will make an analogy that may help u understand better lets say theres a real life party. if ur like wuh?? a party is where people assemble to drink and talk with each other. ok so ur going to a party, and it is hosted by steve liquid and his friends. steve liquid has a lot of friends. lets say one of the kids going is named Xero. the party runs out of beer, and Xero says hes goin out to get some beer. but he doesn't actually get any beer. he lied. he lied to the party. so steve liquid says, get out, we dont want liars at our party. then someone named malcom grif says, totally unfair, theres no rule at the party saying u cant lie about mass deception. now, imagine urself as malcom grif, and "Xero" as dream)xero, and "steve liquid's party" as team liquid forums. do u see now? "oh shit baller that makes so much sense" u say? ur welcome. this is really dumb, sorry, but i care whether there's beer at a party a bit more than whether someone i don't know is telling the truth about a story. i'd imagine most people feel the same. think of it this way, people who went to the party expected there to be beer, people on the internet don't log on and think "oh boy everything i read is going to be true!" Really? Beer is more important than honesty? edit--- you may be correct.
LOL so good.
On July 04 2010 12:09 Djzapz wrote:
Those people just don't realize that if someone shits on your carpet you're allowed to kick them out of your house.
This is a good analogy as well...
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United States10774 Posts
On July 04 2010 13:50 Malgrif wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 13:33 mainerd wrote:On July 04 2010 13:01 Malgrif wrote:On July 04 2010 12:54 mainerd wrote:On July 04 2010 12:47 Malgrif wrote:
trying to gain attention through lying about something is being a douche bag? jeez you judge people too harshly, look around you, people do it all the time.
depends on who you choose to surround yourself with.. bold faced liars?? knowing who to trust when and knowing when allowing people to get away with stuff is better then challenging everyone. know when to fight and know when to let things go. (this really has nothing to do with the matter at hand) that's just my philosophy about how to handle people and i'm sure most of you will say that you don't surround yourself with liars, and that in itself, not to be cliche, is a lie. you and i have different standards i suppose. i've never been able to get along with someone after finding out they were dishonest to me to the degree op was(and elaborating for days on it, thats O.o). you can argue everyone is dishonest in their own way, but not everyone creates intricate fabrications at the expense of others. that is not a common trait among all humans. i disagree, people make up wild stories that don't happen all the time. if the story isn't completely made up it might be greatly exaggerated, which is a common trait among humans.
uhm, not many people people fabricate stories over a series of five blogs and even post fake pictures to go along with them. people lie about little things all the time, but the scale matters here. it is not a common human trait to do what this xero guy pulled off, making up elaborate stories to deceive an entire community for many days. people like him should be banned.
also, good god, man.
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On July 04 2010 15:12 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 13:50 Malgrif wrote:On July 04 2010 13:33 mainerd wrote:On July 04 2010 13:01 Malgrif wrote:On July 04 2010 12:54 mainerd wrote:On July 04 2010 12:47 Malgrif wrote:
trying to gain attention through lying about something is being a douche bag? jeez you judge people too harshly, look around you, people do it all the time.
depends on who you choose to surround yourself with.. bold faced liars?? knowing who to trust when and knowing when allowing people to get away with stuff is better then challenging everyone. know when to fight and know when to let things go. (this really has nothing to do with the matter at hand) that's just my philosophy about how to handle people and i'm sure most of you will say that you don't surround yourself with liars, and that in itself, not to be cliche, is a lie. you and i have different standards i suppose. i've never been able to get along with someone after finding out they were dishonest to me to the degree op was(and elaborating for days on it, thats O.o). you can argue everyone is dishonest in their own way, but not everyone creates intricate fabrications at the expense of others. that is not a common trait among all humans. i disagree, people make up wild stories that don't happen all the time. if the story isn't completely made up it might be greatly exaggerated, which is a common trait among humans. uhm, not many people people fabricate stories over a series of five blogs and even post fake pictures to go along with them. people lie about little things all the time, but the scale matters here. it is not a common human trait to do what this xero guy pulled off, making up elaborate stories to deceive an entire community for many days. people like him should be banned. also, good god, man. when i was discussing this i wasn't talking about xero at allllllllll, ugh this is pointless, people are misinterpreting and mixing up my arguments >_>.
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EPT
