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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 18:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:55 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
game 3's hydra bust plan was really dumb but i guess its true losing all your hydras attacking the wall over and over desperately trying to kill inconsequential bunkers is even dumber! Hmm I thought it was good if he just kills supply supply rax in that order to free the choke and have Flash be supply blocked I'm pretty sure he runs him over instead of losing 8 hydras on a bunker killing nothing.
he did a good job of hiding it but there are a lot of variables. about half the time your opponent's gonna see it coming in time to cancel the goliath they just started and make a tank. the other half of the time you have to win before siege mode finishes, and matchpoint aint exactly a hydra bust sorta map...
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On May 29 2010 18:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:55 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
game 3's hydra bust plan was really dumb but i guess its true losing all your hydras attacking the wall over and over desperately trying to kill inconsequential bunkers is even dumber! Hmm I thought it was good if he just kills supply supply rax in that order to free the choke and have Flash be supply blocked I'm pretty sure he runs him over instead of losing 8 hydras on a bunker killing nothing.
Uhm, couldn't he have just double expanded as soon as he had flash all bottled up? I really didn't see any logic in that play.
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On May 29 2010 18:52 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jaedong's builds were TERRIBLE i was giggling pretty hard in set 3
effort best zerg now i guess? lolol I did not even dream of saying this with a straight face just four weeks ago, but this month, Effort's the best Zerg on the planet.
We saw how horribly Effort failed once he was gunned by everyone. Jaedong has been dealing with it ever since he replaced Savior as the best gamer on the planet. Jaedong used to be so ahead of the pack in terms of micromanagement and multitasking skills, that these skills alone won him a lot of games, but these days that's sadly no longer the case.
We'll see how Effort deals with every other gamer around throwing every trick up their sleave in the book in order to bring him down now that he is in the spotlight again. If he survives that, then we can talk.
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On May 29 2010 19:00 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:57 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 18:55 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 18:54 Nytefish wrote:
JD's builds and preparation were good, it's just he needed to be at 100% to perform well with them. He's unfortunate to have an off-day in the finals but it happens to everyone. People who don't understand how variable a player's performance can be have never played BW properly. game 3's hydra bust plan was really dumb but i guess its true losing all your hydras attacking the wall over and over desperately trying to kill inconsequential bunkers is even dumber! Well hydra bust is hardly a build, it's more of a decision. By the 3rd game he really needed to swing the momentum so I don't blame him for trying it. Even if he dragged out a long game and won it, flash still had 2 lifelines. uhh... ok, it's not a build then. it's just an orderly progression along a predetermined optimal course. nothing like a build order whatsoever, it's just completely from the heart. i fail to see how losing with a terrible hydra bust is a better situation than winning game 3 and facing a 2-1 deficit, however daunting the task
The super greedy fake in game 1 and the 3 hatch in game 2 are obviously the result of JD predicting Flash's play, but he just wasn't in shape enough to execute properly. Of course it's possibly Flash would've won on any other day anyway, but it might not have been such a one sided domination.
And about quick wins, there's such thing as mental and physical stamina, even if you're the best gamers in the world.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:01 Nytefish wrote:
JD actually made the all-or-nothing micro choice on his first attempt. He could do a bunch of things:
1) Pick off outer buildings
2) Focus down the bunker with everything
3) Focus bunker but use half your hydras to target SCVs
He went for number 2, if it succeeds you will most likely win the game straight away, if it fails it should be over. That's just one of the standard trade-offs you encounter when cheesing.
the bunker should be the lowest priority, under scvs, the two depots, the barracks, any goliaths, and any tanks.
four marines aint shit to 20 hydras, why on earth would you focus fire a repairable structure with a bunch of hp -_-
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On May 29 2010 18:55 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I don't support this blog.
Flash is terrible for not picking different builds. He knew these builds would give him easy wins over an under performing Jaedong and should have thought about the fans more. We need to be entertained. Flash is so bad.
haha true.
then again, some people have the idea that flash plays a style that is perfect terran and watching that in action is itself entertaining 
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What do you guys think about an empty base counter with Muta-Ling vs Valk MnM in game 2?
Hmm? HMmm? I was hoping Jaedong would do it. Then he may have even scourged and cut off the valks on another out-path.
I felt that was the most winnable game, cuz he actually got to fight.. but the results were disaster.
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Braavos36401 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:04 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:52 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 18:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jaedong's builds were TERRIBLE i was giggling pretty hard in set 3
effort best zerg now i guess? lolol I did not even dream of saying this with a straight face just four weeks ago, but this month, Effort's the best Zerg on the planet. We saw how horribly Effort failed once he was gunned by everyone. Jaedong has been dealing with it ever since he replaced Savior as the best gamer on the planet. Jaedong used to be so ahead of the pack in terms of micromanagement and multitasking skills, that these skills alone won him a lot of games, but these days that's sadly no longer the case. We'll see how Effort deals with every other gamer around throwing every trick up their sleave in the book in order to bring him down now that he is in the spotlight again. If he survives that, then we can talk.
Note how I said "this month."
You really going to argue with that? Who was better this month? Effort's only two losses came in the OSL Finals.
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On May 29 2010 18:46 Hot_Bid wrote:
He worked hard and he deserves his title. Let's not take anything away from him by bad mouthing the games or his opponents "bad play" or make comments like "Jaedong played like crap and gave it away."
I don't think its the same situation and with Effort/Flash, because Effort actually isn't better than Flash, and only won due to a few ling rushes and flukes, etc
Can't really bad-mouth JD/Flash though, since Flash played so much better and the situations were so different from those of Effort/Flash
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:04 Nytefish wrote:
And about quick wins, there's such thing as mental and physical stamina, even if you're the best gamers in the world.
and armchair sports psychologists like to pretend the threshold is at a definable location without any sort of logic or sense. jaedong can handle a single best of 5, i assure you. effort didn't zerg rush flash three times in a row because he was concerned he might be too tired to continue otherwise...
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It really seems like JD didnt prepare anything special for this BO5. Maybe Flash 14cc just countered it but as people points out, that hydra bust had nothing on it and it was poorly executed.
JD said in the post game interview that he was regretfull he didnt get to show all the stuff he had prepared. But it seemed pretty meh exept for the first game.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
While I'm not a fan of Effort, I have to admit that his builds and gameplay were much more refined than Jaedong's. Sure, Flash made more missteps in his series vs Effort, but Effort was able to capitalize on those minor errors and take that to victory. His builds also showed that he was willing to switch things up once in a while, whereas I didn't see much of that from Jaedong.
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On May 29 2010 19:02 Lexpar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On May 29 2010 18:55 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
game 3's hydra bust plan was really dumb but i guess its true losing all your hydras attacking the wall over and over desperately trying to kill inconsequential bunkers is even dumber! Hmm I thought it was good if he just kills supply supply rax in that order to free the choke and have Flash be supply blocked I'm pretty sure he runs him over instead of losing 8 hydras on a bunker killing nothing. Uhm, couldn't he have just double expanded as soon as he had flash all bottled up? I really didn't see any logic in that play.
Not really. Terran doesn't stay bottled up when they have Siege Mode and Tanks coming. There's a window of time where you have to make something happen, otherwise Terran gets Tanks and can take their 3rd or push and JD hadn't even gone Lair at this point.
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On May 29 2010 19:06 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:04 Letmelose wrote:On May 29 2010 18:52 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 18:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jaedong's builds were TERRIBLE i was giggling pretty hard in set 3
effort best zerg now i guess? lolol I did not even dream of saying this with a straight face just four weeks ago, but this month, Effort's the best Zerg on the planet. We saw how horribly Effort failed once he was gunned by everyone. Jaedong has been dealing with it ever since he replaced Savior as the best gamer on the planet. Jaedong used to be so ahead of the pack in terms of micromanagement and multitasking skills, that these skills alone won him a lot of games, but these days that's sadly no longer the case. We'll see how Effort deals with every other gamer around throwing every trick up their sleave in the book in order to bring him down now that he is in the spotlight again. If he survives that, then we can talk. Note how I said "this month." You really going to argue with that? Who was better this month? Effort's only two losses came in the OSL Finals.
I thought you held Effort in higher regard than simply settling for him being the "flavour of the month". Even I expect more things from the kid, and I say that as someone who is more into Zero.
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Braavos36401 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:07 Nal_rAwr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:46 Hot_Bid wrote:
He worked hard and he deserves his title. Let's not take anything away from him by bad mouthing the games or his opponents "bad play" or make comments like "Jaedong played like crap and gave it away."
I don't think its the same situation and with Effort/Flash, because Effort actually isn't better than Flash, and only won due to a few ling rushes and flukes, etc Can't really bad-mouth JD/Flash though, since Flash played so much better and the situations were so different from those of Effort/Flash
lol it continues
STILL
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On May 29 2010 19:05 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:01 Nytefish wrote:
JD actually made the all-or-nothing micro choice on his first attempt. He could do a bunch of things:
1) Pick off outer buildings
2) Focus down the bunker with everything
3) Focus bunker but use half your hydras to target SCVs
He went for number 2, if it succeeds you will most likely win the game straight away, if it fails it should be over. That's just one of the standard trade-offs you encounter when cheesing. the bunker should be the lowest priority, under scvs, the two depots, the barracks, any goliaths, and any tanks. four marines aint shit to 20 hydras, why on earth would you focus fire a repairable structure with a bunch of hp -_-
He was hoping it would die really fast in just a few seconds, turns out it was a bad decision since flash could fit so many SCV around it. So yes, it was a "dumb mistake" on his part I was just trying to explain the mentality behind it.
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JD could've won that third game if he would've pulled back when the barracks went down... 
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On May 29 2010 18:48 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:47 Skvid wrote:
Partially outplayed, partially bad decision making by JD. I guess the pressure of the finals did its toll on him.
Anyways GG's Any win by any player will partially rely on mistakes by his opponent.
I disagree. "Mistakes" is too broadly defined. If a 50apm player beats a 30apm player in a TvT because the 50apm player macros 1 second faster, would you say it's because the 50apm player is better or the 30apm player made a mistake? Same logic applies to a 500apm player vs a 300apm player.
You can win simply by being faster and better than your opponent.
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Braavos36401 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:10 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:06 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 19:04 Letmelose wrote:On May 29 2010 18:52 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 18:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jaedong's builds were TERRIBLE i was giggling pretty hard in set 3
effort best zerg now i guess? lolol I did not even dream of saying this with a straight face just four weeks ago, but this month, Effort's the best Zerg on the planet. We saw how horribly Effort failed once he was gunned by everyone. Jaedong has been dealing with it ever since he replaced Savior as the best gamer on the planet. Jaedong used to be so ahead of the pack in terms of micromanagement and multitasking skills, that these skills alone won him a lot of games, but these days that's sadly no longer the case. We'll see how Effort deals with every other gamer around throwing every trick up their sleave in the book in order to bring him down now that he is in the spotlight again. If he survives that, then we can talk. Note how I said "this month." You really going to argue with that? Who was better this month? Effort's only two losses came in the OSL Finals. I thought you held Effort in higher regard than simply settling for him being the "flavour of the month". Even I expect more things from the kid, and I say that as someone who is more into Zero.
What did you want me to say? That this proves that Effort is somehow better than Jaedong for the past two years? That's just stupid. Of course JD is the most accomplished and best Zerg in the history of StarCraft.
I just think its hilarious that people were discounting Effort's win as a "fluke" when we're clearly dealing with players (Flash, JD, Effort, etc) who are capable of beating each other in Bo5s.
Right now though, Effort's better than JD, at least in ZvT. It's been a long time since we've been able to say a Z is better than JD at any of the three MUs.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:12 SoManyDeadLings wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:48 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 18:47 Skvid wrote:
Partially outplayed, partially bad decision making by JD. I guess the pressure of the finals did its toll on him.
Anyways GG's Any win by any player will partially rely on mistakes by his opponent. I disagree. "Mistakes" is too broadly defined. If a 50apm player beats a 30apm player in a TvT because the 50apm player macros 1 second faster, would you say it's because the 50apm player is better or the 30apm player made a mistake? Same logic applies to a 500apm player vs a 300apm player. You can win simply by being faster and better than your opponent.
Nah, mistakes are always made. The guy who minimizes his mistakes usually ends up winning.
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EPT
