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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:12 SoManyDeadLings wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:48 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 18:47 Skvid wrote:
Partially outplayed, partially bad decision making by JD. I guess the pressure of the finals did its toll on him.
Anyways GG's Any win by any player will partially rely on mistakes by his opponent. I disagree. "Mistakes" is too broadly defined. If a 50apm player beats a 30apm player in a TvT because the 50apm player macros 1 second faster, would you say it's because the 50apm player is better or the 30apm player made a mistake? Same logic applies to a 500apm player vs a 300apm player. You can win simply by being faster and better than your opponent.
....... and since the other opponent is slower, thus not playing 'perfectly', thus making 'mistakes', ?
Not to mention, your example is GROSSLY over simplified.
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On May 29 2010 19:08 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:04 Nytefish wrote:
And about quick wins, there's such thing as mental and physical stamina, even if you're the best gamers in the world. and armchair sports psychologists like to pretend the threshold is at a definable location without any sort of logic or sense. jaedong can handle a single best of 5, i assure you. effort didn't zerg rush flash three times in a row because he was concerned he might be too tired to continue otherwise...
There's a lot more to a quick win than just the energy you save, a win from a cheesy play counts just as much as a hard fought management battle and getting a win can really undermine the confidence of your opponent.
Sure I'm not a psychologist, but what I say comes from experience in playing broodwar matches, something I think is far more relevant.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:11 Nytefish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:05 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:01 Nytefish wrote:
JD actually made the all-or-nothing micro choice on his first attempt. He could do a bunch of things:
1) Pick off outer buildings
2) Focus down the bunker with everything
3) Focus bunker but use half your hydras to target SCVs
He went for number 2, if it succeeds you will most likely win the game straight away, if it fails it should be over. That's just one of the standard trade-offs you encounter when cheesing. the bunker should be the lowest priority, under scvs, the two depots, the barracks, any goliaths, and any tanks. four marines aint shit to 20 hydras, why on earth would you focus fire a repairable structure with a bunch of hp -_- He was hoping it would die really fast in just a few seconds, turns out it was a bad decision since flash could fit so many SCV around it. So yes, it was a "dumb mistake" on his part I was just trying to explain the mentality behind it.
explain the mentality behind it? "hurp de durp hope this works LOL" isn't a mentality
you're talking about a player who has played thousands upon thousands of games of bw and telling me that jaedong's ability to recognize that a bunker with ten scvs around it probably isn't gonna die and really isn't his biggest concern goes out the window because of some mystical mental state he entered that allowed him to transcend bad decisions or at least excuse them because he really really really wanted to kill that bunker
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Braavos36375 Posts
in a related note
Liquibet
Rank Points Name
1 260 3 Lions
2 257 Hot_Bid
3 255 notrangerjoe
4 254 LunarDestiny
5 254 foodontable
6 253 skronch
7 253 miekniek
8 252 Gamjadori
9 251 writer22816
10 251 LoStYouRSkiLLS
FUUUUU
DAMN YOU 3 LIONS
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
I personally wouldn't anoint Effort as the best ZvTer right now over Jaedong just because Effort > Flash and Flash > Jaedong.
All Effort showed me was that he was able to mix things up, expose holes in opponent's defense, and capitalize on mistakes, which is all part of great gameplay. As for ZvT in general, I just don't think you can't judge Effort to be better than Jaedong based off three wins in the early game.
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On May 29 2010 19:08 Roffles wrote:
While I'm not a fan of Effort, I have to admit that his builds and gameplay were much more refined than Jaedong's. Sure, Flash made more missteps in his series vs Effort, but Effort was able to capitalize on those minor errors and take that to victory. His builds also showed that he was willing to switch things up once in a while, whereas I didn't see much of that from Jaedong.
You're right in it being more refined. Perhaps Jaedong is more dangerous if you can't deduce what's happening. Unfortunately for Jaedong, Flash is imba perceptive. Remember the double bunker on neo medusa vs Calm (I believe it was ) without even scouting the all in? Regardless, the only game I was truly disappointed in was the last game where he gave away his hydralisks in a pathetic manner. I want to see flash overcoming great obstacles not be given games. To Flash's credit though, he wouldn't let Jaedong out of his base without knowing what was coming (eg the scv + the vulture) which in itself is not very exciting but in the scope of the game is huge. Flash put down the second factory instead of what could have possibly been a starport when he saw the late natural gas.
GGs Lee Young Ho!
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:16 Roffles wrote:
I personally wouldn't anoint Effort as the best ZvTer right now over Jaedong just because Effort > Flash and Flash > Jaedong.
All Effort showed me was that he was able to mix things up, expose holes in opponent's defense, and capitalize on mistakes, which is all part of great gameplay. As for ZvT in general, I just don't think you can't judge Effort to be better than Jaedong based off three wins in the early game.
jaedong's zvt is pretty garbage these days...
edit before some idiot comes at me with tlpd stats: people win with garbage in progaming all the time
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:16 Hot_Bid wrote:in a related note Show nested quote +Liquibet
Rank Points Name
1 260 3 Lions
2 257 Hot_Bid
3 255 notrangerjoe
4 254 LunarDestiny
5 254 foodontable
6 253 skronch
7 253 miekniek
8 252 Gamjadori
9 251 writer22816
10 251 LoStYouRSkiLLS FUUUUU DAMN YOU 3 LIONS
Ip ban ftw. Abuse of power, gogogogo!
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On May 29 2010 19:16 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:11 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:05 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:01 Nytefish wrote:
JD actually made the all-or-nothing micro choice on his first attempt. He could do a bunch of things:
1) Pick off outer buildings
2) Focus down the bunker with everything
3) Focus bunker but use half your hydras to target SCVs
He went for number 2, if it succeeds you will most likely win the game straight away, if it fails it should be over. That's just one of the standard trade-offs you encounter when cheesing. the bunker should be the lowest priority, under scvs, the two depots, the barracks, any goliaths, and any tanks. four marines aint shit to 20 hydras, why on earth would you focus fire a repairable structure with a bunch of hp -_- He was hoping it would die really fast in just a few seconds, turns out it was a bad decision since flash could fit so many SCV around it. So yes, it was a "dumb mistake" on his part I was just trying to explain the mentality behind it. explain the mentality behind it? "hurp de durp hope this works LOL" isn't a mentality you're talking about a player who has played thousands upon thousands of games of bw and telling me that jaedong's ability to recognize that a bunker with ten scvs around it probably isn't gonna die and really isn't his biggest concern goes out the window because of some mystical mental state he entered that allowed him to transcend bad decisions or at least excuse them because he really really really wanted to kill that bunker
What are we even arguing about?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:19 Nytefish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:16 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:11 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:05 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:01 Nytefish wrote:
JD actually made the all-or-nothing micro choice on his first attempt. He could do a bunch of things:
1) Pick off outer buildings
2) Focus down the bunker with everything
3) Focus bunker but use half your hydras to target SCVs
He went for number 2, if it succeeds you will most likely win the game straight away, if it fails it should be over. That's just one of the standard trade-offs you encounter when cheesing. the bunker should be the lowest priority, under scvs, the two depots, the barracks, any goliaths, and any tanks. four marines aint shit to 20 hydras, why on earth would you focus fire a repairable structure with a bunch of hp -_- He was hoping it would die really fast in just a few seconds, turns out it was a bad decision since flash could fit so many SCV around it. So yes, it was a "dumb mistake" on his part I was just trying to explain the mentality behind it. explain the mentality behind it? "hurp de durp hope this works LOL" isn't a mentality you're talking about a player who has played thousands upon thousands of games of bw and telling me that jaedong's ability to recognize that a bunker with ten scvs around it probably isn't gonna die and really isn't his biggest concern goes out the window because of some mystical mental state he entered that allowed him to transcend bad decisions or at least excuse them because he really really really wanted to kill that bunker What are we even arguing about?
you said some really boneheaded stuff about how a hydra bust goes down and now i'm telling you what a silly child you are, of course
don't mind me, i'm just a hater. fo real about the boneheadedness though, i pray you're not a zerg player!
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:17 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:16 Roffles wrote:
I personally wouldn't anoint Effort as the best ZvTer right now over Jaedong just because Effort > Flash and Flash > Jaedong.
All Effort showed me was that he was able to mix things up, expose holes in opponent's defense, and capitalize on mistakes, which is all part of great gameplay. As for ZvT in general, I just don't think you can't judge Effort to be better than Jaedong based off three wins in the early game. jaedong's zvt is pretty garbage these days... edit before some idiot comes at me with tlpd stats: people win with garbage in progaming all the time
But then again, isn't everyone's ZvT garbage these days? Just seems that way these days. Zergs feasting on Protosses, Protosses getting shafted left and right, Terran cleaning up the Zergs. Back to how it used to be.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:22 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:17 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:16 Roffles wrote:
I personally wouldn't anoint Effort as the best ZvTer right now over Jaedong just because Effort > Flash and Flash > Jaedong.
All Effort showed me was that he was able to mix things up, expose holes in opponent's defense, and capitalize on mistakes, which is all part of great gameplay. As for ZvT in general, I just don't think you can't judge Effort to be better than Jaedong based off three wins in the early game. jaedong's zvt is pretty garbage these days... edit before some idiot comes at me with tlpd stats: people win with garbage in progaming all the time But then again, isn't everyone's ZvT garbage these days?
...yeah, more or less  plz new maps
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On May 29 2010 19:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:19 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:16 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:11 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:05 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:01 Nytefish wrote:
JD actually made the all-or-nothing micro choice on his first attempt. He could do a bunch of things:
1) Pick off outer buildings
2) Focus down the bunker with everything
3) Focus bunker but use half your hydras to target SCVs
He went for number 2, if it succeeds you will most likely win the game straight away, if it fails it should be over. That's just one of the standard trade-offs you encounter when cheesing. the bunker should be the lowest priority, under scvs, the two depots, the barracks, any goliaths, and any tanks. four marines aint shit to 20 hydras, why on earth would you focus fire a repairable structure with a bunch of hp -_- He was hoping it would die really fast in just a few seconds, turns out it was a bad decision since flash could fit so many SCV around it. So yes, it was a "dumb mistake" on his part I was just trying to explain the mentality behind it. explain the mentality behind it? "hurp de durp hope this works LOL" isn't a mentality you're talking about a player who has played thousands upon thousands of games of bw and telling me that jaedong's ability to recognize that a bunker with ten scvs around it probably isn't gonna die and really isn't his biggest concern goes out the window because of some mystical mental state he entered that allowed him to transcend bad decisions or at least excuse them because he really really really wanted to kill that bunker What are we even arguing about? you said some really boneheaded stuff about how a hydra bust goes down and now i'm telling you what a silly child you are, of course don't mind me, i'm just a hater. fo real about the boneheadedness though, i pray you're not a zerg player!
I was talking more about what he could do rather than what he should do. When I listed those options earlier I didn't mean to imply they were all equal and valid choices in every situation.
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Protoss favored maps now? At least give those poor scum a chance!
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:25 Nytefish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:19 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:16 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:11 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:05 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:01 Nytefish wrote:
JD actually made the all-or-nothing micro choice on his first attempt. He could do a bunch of things:
1) Pick off outer buildings
2) Focus down the bunker with everything
3) Focus bunker but use half your hydras to target SCVs
He went for number 2, if it succeeds you will most likely win the game straight away, if it fails it should be over. That's just one of the standard trade-offs you encounter when cheesing. the bunker should be the lowest priority, under scvs, the two depots, the barracks, any goliaths, and any tanks. four marines aint shit to 20 hydras, why on earth would you focus fire a repairable structure with a bunch of hp -_- He was hoping it would die really fast in just a few seconds, turns out it was a bad decision since flash could fit so many SCV around it. So yes, it was a "dumb mistake" on his part I was just trying to explain the mentality behind it. explain the mentality behind it? "hurp de durp hope this works LOL" isn't a mentality you're talking about a player who has played thousands upon thousands of games of bw and telling me that jaedong's ability to recognize that a bunker with ten scvs around it probably isn't gonna die and really isn't his biggest concern goes out the window because of some mystical mental state he entered that allowed him to transcend bad decisions or at least excuse them because he really really really wanted to kill that bunker What are we even arguing about? you said some really boneheaded stuff about how a hydra bust goes down and now i'm telling you what a silly child you are, of course don't mind me, i'm just a hater. fo real about the boneheadedness though, i pray you're not a zerg player! I was talking more about what he could do rather than what he should do. When I listed those options earlier I didn't mean to imply they were all equal and valid choices in every situation.
whats the point of that? you might as well have included "send your hydras to the corner of the map and do nothing" to the list. its only slightly worse than putting half your hydras on the bunker and the other half on the scvs
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On May 29 2010 19:25 Megalisk wrote:
Protoss favored maps now? At least give those poor scum a chance!
The irony is if this happens, it just screws over the Terrans other than Flash even more. None of them are making any headway in leagues even with the good maps but Flash is masking this fact by crushinating everybody. Flash will continue to dominate on good P maps (Katrina/Medusa/etc.) and Terrans will just get owned even worse.
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Braavos36375 Posts
seriously, this result makes me so happy
all those flash fanboys whining and discounting effort's win in the OSL finals now can't say anything, because the exact same arguments apply to this MSL series
rofl
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:25 Megalisk wrote:
Protoss favored maps now? At least give those poor scum a chance!
honestly i'd almost be down for some katrina. a new season of protoss players winning will breathe some life into us, new maps new build orders!
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On May 29 2010 19:13 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:10 Letmelose wrote:On May 29 2010 19:06 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 19:04 Letmelose wrote:On May 29 2010 18:52 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 18:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jaedong's builds were TERRIBLE i was giggling pretty hard in set 3
effort best zerg now i guess? lolol I did not even dream of saying this with a straight face just four weeks ago, but this month, Effort's the best Zerg on the planet. We saw how horribly Effort failed once he was gunned by everyone. Jaedong has been dealing with it ever since he replaced Savior as the best gamer on the planet. Jaedong used to be so ahead of the pack in terms of micromanagement and multitasking skills, that these skills alone won him a lot of games, but these days that's sadly no longer the case. We'll see how Effort deals with every other gamer around throwing every trick up their sleave in the book in order to bring him down now that he is in the spotlight again. If he survives that, then we can talk. Note how I said "this month." You really going to argue with that? Who was better this month? Effort's only two losses came in the OSL Finals. I thought you held Effort in higher regard than simply settling for him being the "flavour of the month". Even I expect more things from the kid, and I say that as someone who is more into Zero. What did you want me to say? That this proves that Effort is somehow better than Jaedong for the past two years? That's just stupid. Of course JD is the most accomplished and best Zerg in the history of StarCraft. I just think its hilarious that people were discounting Effort's win as a "fluke" when we're clearly dealing with players (Flash, JD, Effort, etc) who are capable of beating each other in Bo5s. Right now though, Effort's better than JD, at least in ZvT. It's been a long time since we've been able to say a Z is better than JD at any of the three MUs.
It's been for quite some time now that the likes of Effort and Zero can literally play comparetively to Jaedong's absolute peak skill level. I was mistaken for thinking that you were basically predicting the ascension of Effort as the next big thing in Starcraft; something that I believe he is perfectly capable of being.
The thing is. It is easy (relatively speaking of course) to look great when things are going great for you, and everything is working out. Effort has both the mechanics and trickery to defeat Flash, and has shown that this month (something Jaedong totally failed in). However, what I feel like you are doing is "cashing-in" on Effort the moment he looked like the superior zerg in comparison with Jaedong.
Surely a fan such as yourself could have the faith in Effort to survive the oncoming onslaught, struggle through come rain or shine, and STILL look like the greatest zerg around, rather than taking a somewhat cheap shot at the greatest zerg around in the scene when he has just taken a low blow.
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Seems to me like Jaedong tried to do some cute things to get an edge. But he read the situations wrong and it failed epically.
Just like poker a lot of SC moves have an eV. Flash is playing well and consistently winning by making risky moves that pay off more often than not.
You make a decision and if it works out, you're praised as a genius. If you fail, then you were dumb/insane for trying it in the first place. The same can be said for Flash's games 1-2, and 3-5 vs Effort. Flash fans will deny that games 3-5 matter, because somehow Flash suddenly had a stroke and "wasn't playing like himself."
JD's play however was pretty risky with all these fast expansions and tiny army. He has the mechanics to play standard and keep up with Flash in terms of execution. I'm disappointed he didn't 2-hatch mutas at least once.
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EPT
