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t_t.. so sad  i wanted a better finals like everyone else
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3 x 14cc makes me feel fucking terrible
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Partially outplayed, partially bad decision making by JD. I guess the pressure of the finals did its toll on him.
Anyways GG's
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i still don't know how he managed to win that first game.
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Braavos36372 Posts
On May 29 2010 18:47 Skvid wrote:
Partially outplayed, partially bad decision making by JD. I guess the pressure of the finals did its toll on him.
Anyways GG's
Any win by any player will partially rely on mistakes by his opponent.
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I agree. I was cheering for Jaedong. But Flash certainly won this convincingly, and he deserves the credit of the win.
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saying flash outplayed jaedong is the same as saying jaedong played poorly
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Braavos36372 Posts
On May 29 2010 18:49 Azrael1111 wrote:
saying flash outplayed jaedong is the same as saying jaedong played poorly
Ah, but I was simply stating the difference in my opinion and Plexa's.
I do not believe Flash cheesed his way to the win through some sort of imbalanced dirty Terran play, or that somehow JD is still better than Flash because Flash used 14cc three times.
I just want to recognize that one player played better than another on a given day, and that the better player deserves his title.
^This sentence applies to both the OSL and the MSL.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
jaedong's builds were TERRIBLE i was giggling pretty hard in set 3
effort best zerg now i guess? lolol
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Flash deserved it, but Jaedong simply looked sloppy in all 3 games.
I was very dissapointed in his play, and am very much hoping this isn't going to plunge him back into slumpville, but instead rocket him forwards to take the next finals.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
If you are stating that one player did in fact play better than the other I completely agree. And on that note I'd like to mention just how much less well played jaedong played. He played significantly less well than Flash imo.
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Braavos36372 Posts
On May 29 2010 18:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jaedong's builds were TERRIBLE i was giggling pretty hard in set 3
effort best zerg now i guess? lolol
I did not even dream of saying this with a straight face just four weeks ago, but this month, Effort's the best Zerg on the planet.
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On May 29 2010 18:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jaedong's builds were TERRIBLE i was giggling pretty hard in set 3
effort best zerg now i guess? lolol
My thoughts during this was:
"did he practice this build vs Lomo and think to himself 'this is unbeatable!' because of that?"
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On May 29 2010 18:46 Kenpachi wrote:t_t.. so sad i wanted a better finals like everyone else
Games 1 and 3 were pretty excellent, imo.
And exactly. I hope this win puts the scene in somewhat more perspective. Flash is the best player, but he's not unbeatable, and he can be beaten by intelligent aggression. But, the same as everything else, if you let him get away with unpunished abusive economic builds, he'll win.
Is EffOrt better than Jaedong? Who the hell knows? As tonight showed, they're completely different players. And we don't need to know at all. It's not important.
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I agree. Flash really deserved this win.
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On May 29 2010 18:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jaedong's builds were TERRIBLE i was giggling pretty hard in set 3
effort best zerg now i guess? lolol
No kidding. Set 3 was the most exciting of the games, there was this moment when the hydra bust seemed really strong, and it was. Too bad he didn't know when to quit.
I'm really disappointed. Oh well.
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[B]
effort best zerg now i guess? lolol
yeah lulz
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No one seems to care about JD`s build in the first set. I went crazy when I saw it. Still tough, completely outplayed.
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I thought Flash's MnM/Vessel control was pretty bad on fighting spirit, but he was already pretty far ahead from the 14 cc despite jaedong going 3 hatch before pool.
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JD's builds and preparation were good, it's just he needed to be at 100% to perform well with them. He's unfortunate to have an off-day in the finals but it happens to everyone. People who don't understand how variable a player's performance can be have never played BW properly.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 18:52 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jaedong's builds were TERRIBLE i was giggling pretty hard in set 3
effort best zerg now i guess? lolol I did not even dream of saying this with a straight face just four weeks ago, but this month, Effort's the best Zerg on the planet.
he's been so stylish lately, good management too, but i had a big smile on my face when he octoberzerged flash in the OSL final. players need to remember how to get down and dirty, everyone's fuckin "uncheesable" these days
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Out the 2 finals.
IF Flash won both osl and msl, flash = the man
IF Flash won first 1 as expected and jd wins 2nd 1, jd = the man
But with this outcome = wtfux
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He played very well.
Deserves the medal.
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Very disappointing finals.
I was cheering for Jaedong but
I would have been completely fine with Flash winning if there were really good games
But it was a big let down
Of course Flash played better, no doubt about it and of course he deserves the title.
Just getting that out of the way.
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Jaedong played absolutely horrible. I knew he'd suicide into the wall in game 3, was pretty tragic.
In game 2, did he build his first drone late contemplating a 4 pool? It looked like his 5th and 6th drones came out close together or I must be imagining?
Flash played solid, he should have done that against effort 
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I don't support this blog.
Flash is terrible for not picking different builds. He knew these builds would give him easy wins over an under performing Jaedong and should have thought about the fans more. We need to be entertained. Flash is so bad.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 18:54 Nytefish wrote:
JD's builds and preparation were good, it's just he needed to be at 100% to perform well with them. He's unfortunate to have an off-day in the finals but it happens to everyone. People who don't understand how variable a player's performance can be have never played BW properly.
game 3's hydra bust plan was really dumb but i guess its true losing all your hydras attacking the wall over and over desperately trying to kill inconsequential bunkers is even dumber!
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He was so happy after he knew he had won. Congrats Flash, a well deserved title, against a formidable opponent.
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Guys, flash is slumping, his vz went down to below 70%
SLUMPPPP!!!
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On May 29 2010 18:55 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:54 Nytefish wrote:
JD's builds and preparation were good, it's just he needed to be at 100% to perform well with them. He's unfortunate to have an off-day in the finals but it happens to everyone. People who don't understand how variable a player's performance can be have never played BW properly. game 3's hydra bust plan was really dumb but i guess its true losing all your hydras attacking the wall over and over desperately trying to kill inconsequential bunkers is even dumber!
Well hydra bust is hardly a build, it's more of a decision. By the 3rd game he really needed to swing the momentum so I don't blame him for trying it. Even if he dragged out a long game and won it, flash still had 2 lifelines.
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On May 29 2010 18:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:52 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 18:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jaedong's builds were TERRIBLE i was giggling pretty hard in set 3
effort best zerg now i guess? lolol I did not even dream of saying this with a straight face just four weeks ago, but this month, Effort's the best Zerg on the planet. he's been so stylish lately, good management too, but i had a big smile on my face when he octoberzerged flash in the OSL final. players need to remember how to get down and dirty, everyone's fuckin "uncheesable" these days
Exactly.. And I don't get it. What makes JD so good normally in BO5's is that he always have had the nerve to make 9pool with speed or 9 pool into fast mutas.
This game he just played so standard.
But probs to flash for being so ballsy.
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On May 29 2010 18:55 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:54 Nytefish wrote:
JD's builds and preparation were good, it's just he needed to be at 100% to perform well with them. He's unfortunate to have an off-day in the finals but it happens to everyone. People who don't understand how variable a player's performance can be have never played BW properly. game 3's hydra bust plan was really dumb but i guess its true losing all your hydras attacking the wall over and over desperately trying to kill inconsequential bunkers is even dumber!
I agree. I thought it was so retarded to just keep wasting hydras like that. Obviously at first he had to try and do some damage or end up severely behind, but still. Killing that last bunker was completely pointless.
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On May 29 2010 18:55 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:54 Nytefish wrote:
JD's builds and preparation were good, it's just he needed to be at 100% to perform well with them. He's unfortunate to have an off-day in the finals but it happens to everyone. People who don't understand how variable a player's performance can be have never played BW properly. game 3's hydra bust plan was really dumb but i guess its true losing all your hydras attacking the wall over and over desperately trying to kill inconsequential bunkers is even dumber!
Exactly again. Seemed like he didnt have a followup even though he have had 3 weeks of preparation.
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On May 29 2010 18:55 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
game 3's hydra bust plan was really dumb but i guess its true losing all your hydras attacking the wall over and over desperately trying to kill inconsequential bunkers is even dumber!
Hmm I thought it was good if he just kills supply supply rax in that order to free the choke and have Flash be supply blocked I'm pretty sure he runs him over instead of losing 8 hydras on a bunker killing nothing.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 18:57 Nytefish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:55 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 18:54 Nytefish wrote:
JD's builds and preparation were good, it's just he needed to be at 100% to perform well with them. He's unfortunate to have an off-day in the finals but it happens to everyone. People who don't understand how variable a player's performance can be have never played BW properly. game 3's hydra bust plan was really dumb but i guess its true losing all your hydras attacking the wall over and over desperately trying to kill inconsequential bunkers is even dumber! Well hydra bust is hardly a build, it's more of a decision. By the 3rd game he really needed to swing the momentum so I don't blame him for trying it. Even if he dragged out a long game and won it, flash still had 2 lifelines.
uhh... ok, it's not a build then. it's just an orderly progression along a predetermined optimal course. nothing like a build order whatsoever, it's just completely from the heart.
i fail to see how losing with a terrible hydra bust is a better situation than winning game 3 and facing a 2-1 deficit, however daunting the task
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Braavos36372 Posts
Or, he could stop making hydras and drone a lot earlier. He almost broke the push anyway, and had he made just a few drones one round earlier he almost certainly would have defended. Though I'm not sure Flash would've pushed at that timing if JD didn't lose so many hydras...
Regardless, I don't think Flash was losing this series no matter what JD did.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Jaedong hasn't had a good history with going for Hydra-busts against 14CC At that point, and on Match Point, I thought that going 2hatch muta like he did in their first encounter would have been better. But hey, I'm not a MSL finalist.
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JD actually made the all-or-nothing micro choice on his first attempt. He could do a bunch of things:
1) Pick off outer buildings
2) Focus down the bunker with everything
3) Focus bunker but use half your hydras to target SCVs
He went for number 2, if it succeeds you will most likely win the game straight away, if it fails it should be over. That's just one of the standard trade-offs you encounter when cheesing.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 18:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:55 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
game 3's hydra bust plan was really dumb but i guess its true losing all your hydras attacking the wall over and over desperately trying to kill inconsequential bunkers is even dumber! Hmm I thought it was good if he just kills supply supply rax in that order to free the choke and have Flash be supply blocked I'm pretty sure he runs him over instead of losing 8 hydras on a bunker killing nothing.
he did a good job of hiding it but there are a lot of variables. about half the time your opponent's gonna see it coming in time to cancel the goliath they just started and make a tank. the other half of the time you have to win before siege mode finishes, and matchpoint aint exactly a hydra bust sorta map...
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On May 29 2010 18:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:55 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
game 3's hydra bust plan was really dumb but i guess its true losing all your hydras attacking the wall over and over desperately trying to kill inconsequential bunkers is even dumber! Hmm I thought it was good if he just kills supply supply rax in that order to free the choke and have Flash be supply blocked I'm pretty sure he runs him over instead of losing 8 hydras on a bunker killing nothing.
Uhm, couldn't he have just double expanded as soon as he had flash all bottled up? I really didn't see any logic in that play.
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On May 29 2010 18:52 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jaedong's builds were TERRIBLE i was giggling pretty hard in set 3
effort best zerg now i guess? lolol I did not even dream of saying this with a straight face just four weeks ago, but this month, Effort's the best Zerg on the planet.
We saw how horribly Effort failed once he was gunned by everyone. Jaedong has been dealing with it ever since he replaced Savior as the best gamer on the planet. Jaedong used to be so ahead of the pack in terms of micromanagement and multitasking skills, that these skills alone won him a lot of games, but these days that's sadly no longer the case.
We'll see how Effort deals with every other gamer around throwing every trick up their sleave in the book in order to bring him down now that he is in the spotlight again. If he survives that, then we can talk.
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On May 29 2010 19:00 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:57 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 18:55 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 18:54 Nytefish wrote:
JD's builds and preparation were good, it's just he needed to be at 100% to perform well with them. He's unfortunate to have an off-day in the finals but it happens to everyone. People who don't understand how variable a player's performance can be have never played BW properly. game 3's hydra bust plan was really dumb but i guess its true losing all your hydras attacking the wall over and over desperately trying to kill inconsequential bunkers is even dumber! Well hydra bust is hardly a build, it's more of a decision. By the 3rd game he really needed to swing the momentum so I don't blame him for trying it. Even if he dragged out a long game and won it, flash still had 2 lifelines. uhh... ok, it's not a build then. it's just an orderly progression along a predetermined optimal course. nothing like a build order whatsoever, it's just completely from the heart. i fail to see how losing with a terrible hydra bust is a better situation than winning game 3 and facing a 2-1 deficit, however daunting the task
The super greedy fake in game 1 and the 3 hatch in game 2 are obviously the result of JD predicting Flash's play, but he just wasn't in shape enough to execute properly. Of course it's possibly Flash would've won on any other day anyway, but it might not have been such a one sided domination.
And about quick wins, there's such thing as mental and physical stamina, even if you're the best gamers in the world.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:01 Nytefish wrote:
JD actually made the all-or-nothing micro choice on his first attempt. He could do a bunch of things:
1) Pick off outer buildings
2) Focus down the bunker with everything
3) Focus bunker but use half your hydras to target SCVs
He went for number 2, if it succeeds you will most likely win the game straight away, if it fails it should be over. That's just one of the standard trade-offs you encounter when cheesing.
the bunker should be the lowest priority, under scvs, the two depots, the barracks, any goliaths, and any tanks.
four marines aint shit to 20 hydras, why on earth would you focus fire a repairable structure with a bunch of hp -_-
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On May 29 2010 18:55 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I don't support this blog.
Flash is terrible for not picking different builds. He knew these builds would give him easy wins over an under performing Jaedong and should have thought about the fans more. We need to be entertained. Flash is so bad.
haha true.
then again, some people have the idea that flash plays a style that is perfect terran and watching that in action is itself entertaining
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What do you guys think about an empty base counter with Muta-Ling vs Valk MnM in game 2?
Hmm? HMmm? I was hoping Jaedong would do it. Then he may have even scourged and cut off the valks on another out-path.
I felt that was the most winnable game, cuz he actually got to fight.. but the results were disaster.
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Braavos36372 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:04 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:52 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 18:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jaedong's builds were TERRIBLE i was giggling pretty hard in set 3
effort best zerg now i guess? lolol I did not even dream of saying this with a straight face just four weeks ago, but this month, Effort's the best Zerg on the planet. We saw how horribly Effort failed once he was gunned by everyone. Jaedong has been dealing with it ever since he replaced Savior as the best gamer on the planet. Jaedong used to be so ahead of the pack in terms of micromanagement and multitasking skills, that these skills alone won him a lot of games, but these days that's sadly no longer the case. We'll see how Effort deals with every other gamer around throwing every trick up their sleave in the book in order to bring him down now that he is in the spotlight again. If he survives that, then we can talk.
Note how I said "this month."
You really going to argue with that? Who was better this month? Effort's only two losses came in the OSL Finals.
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On May 29 2010 18:46 Hot_Bid wrote:
He worked hard and he deserves his title. Let's not take anything away from him by bad mouthing the games or his opponents "bad play" or make comments like "Jaedong played like crap and gave it away."
I don't think its the same situation and with Effort/Flash, because Effort actually isn't better than Flash, and only won due to a few ling rushes and flukes, etc
Can't really bad-mouth JD/Flash though, since Flash played so much better and the situations were so different from those of Effort/Flash
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:04 Nytefish wrote:
And about quick wins, there's such thing as mental and physical stamina, even if you're the best gamers in the world.
and armchair sports psychologists like to pretend the threshold is at a definable location without any sort of logic or sense. jaedong can handle a single best of 5, i assure you. effort didn't zerg rush flash three times in a row because he was concerned he might be too tired to continue otherwise...
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It really seems like JD didnt prepare anything special for this BO5. Maybe Flash 14cc just countered it but as people points out, that hydra bust had nothing on it and it was poorly executed.
JD said in the post game interview that he was regretfull he didnt get to show all the stuff he had prepared. But it seemed pretty meh exept for the first game.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
While I'm not a fan of Effort, I have to admit that his builds and gameplay were much more refined than Jaedong's. Sure, Flash made more missteps in his series vs Effort, but Effort was able to capitalize on those minor errors and take that to victory. His builds also showed that he was willing to switch things up once in a while, whereas I didn't see much of that from Jaedong.
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On May 29 2010 19:02 Lexpar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On May 29 2010 18:55 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
game 3's hydra bust plan was really dumb but i guess its true losing all your hydras attacking the wall over and over desperately trying to kill inconsequential bunkers is even dumber! Hmm I thought it was good if he just kills supply supply rax in that order to free the choke and have Flash be supply blocked I'm pretty sure he runs him over instead of losing 8 hydras on a bunker killing nothing. Uhm, couldn't he have just double expanded as soon as he had flash all bottled up? I really didn't see any logic in that play.
Not really. Terran doesn't stay bottled up when they have Siege Mode and Tanks coming. There's a window of time where you have to make something happen, otherwise Terran gets Tanks and can take their 3rd or push and JD hadn't even gone Lair at this point.
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On May 29 2010 19:06 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:04 Letmelose wrote:On May 29 2010 18:52 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 18:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jaedong's builds were TERRIBLE i was giggling pretty hard in set 3
effort best zerg now i guess? lolol I did not even dream of saying this with a straight face just four weeks ago, but this month, Effort's the best Zerg on the planet. We saw how horribly Effort failed once he was gunned by everyone. Jaedong has been dealing with it ever since he replaced Savior as the best gamer on the planet. Jaedong used to be so ahead of the pack in terms of micromanagement and multitasking skills, that these skills alone won him a lot of games, but these days that's sadly no longer the case. We'll see how Effort deals with every other gamer around throwing every trick up their sleave in the book in order to bring him down now that he is in the spotlight again. If he survives that, then we can talk. Note how I said "this month." You really going to argue with that? Who was better this month? Effort's only two losses came in the OSL Finals.
I thought you held Effort in higher regard than simply settling for him being the "flavour of the month". Even I expect more things from the kid, and I say that as someone who is more into Zero.
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Braavos36372 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:07 Nal_rAwr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:46 Hot_Bid wrote:
He worked hard and he deserves his title. Let's not take anything away from him by bad mouthing the games or his opponents "bad play" or make comments like "Jaedong played like crap and gave it away."
I don't think its the same situation and with Effort/Flash, because Effort actually isn't better than Flash, and only won due to a few ling rushes and flukes, etc Can't really bad-mouth JD/Flash though, since Flash played so much better and the situations were so different from those of Effort/Flash
lol it continues
STILL
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On May 29 2010 19:05 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:01 Nytefish wrote:
JD actually made the all-or-nothing micro choice on his first attempt. He could do a bunch of things:
1) Pick off outer buildings
2) Focus down the bunker with everything
3) Focus bunker but use half your hydras to target SCVs
He went for number 2, if it succeeds you will most likely win the game straight away, if it fails it should be over. That's just one of the standard trade-offs you encounter when cheesing. the bunker should be the lowest priority, under scvs, the two depots, the barracks, any goliaths, and any tanks. four marines aint shit to 20 hydras, why on earth would you focus fire a repairable structure with a bunch of hp -_-
He was hoping it would die really fast in just a few seconds, turns out it was a bad decision since flash could fit so many SCV around it. So yes, it was a "dumb mistake" on his part I was just trying to explain the mentality behind it.
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JD could've won that third game if he would've pulled back when the barracks went down...
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On May 29 2010 18:48 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:47 Skvid wrote:
Partially outplayed, partially bad decision making by JD. I guess the pressure of the finals did its toll on him.
Anyways GG's Any win by any player will partially rely on mistakes by his opponent.
I disagree. "Mistakes" is too broadly defined. If a 50apm player beats a 30apm player in a TvT because the 50apm player macros 1 second faster, would you say it's because the 50apm player is better or the 30apm player made a mistake? Same logic applies to a 500apm player vs a 300apm player.
You can win simply by being faster and better than your opponent.
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Braavos36372 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:10 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:06 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 19:04 Letmelose wrote:On May 29 2010 18:52 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 18:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jaedong's builds were TERRIBLE i was giggling pretty hard in set 3
effort best zerg now i guess? lolol I did not even dream of saying this with a straight face just four weeks ago, but this month, Effort's the best Zerg on the planet. We saw how horribly Effort failed once he was gunned by everyone. Jaedong has been dealing with it ever since he replaced Savior as the best gamer on the planet. Jaedong used to be so ahead of the pack in terms of micromanagement and multitasking skills, that these skills alone won him a lot of games, but these days that's sadly no longer the case. We'll see how Effort deals with every other gamer around throwing every trick up their sleave in the book in order to bring him down now that he is in the spotlight again. If he survives that, then we can talk. Note how I said "this month." You really going to argue with that? Who was better this month? Effort's only two losses came in the OSL Finals. I thought you held Effort in higher regard than simply settling for him being the "flavour of the month". Even I expect more things from the kid, and I say that as someone who is more into Zero.
What did you want me to say? That this proves that Effort is somehow better than Jaedong for the past two years? That's just stupid. Of course JD is the most accomplished and best Zerg in the history of StarCraft.
I just think its hilarious that people were discounting Effort's win as a "fluke" when we're clearly dealing with players (Flash, JD, Effort, etc) who are capable of beating each other in Bo5s.
Right now though, Effort's better than JD, at least in ZvT. It's been a long time since we've been able to say a Z is better than JD at any of the three MUs.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:12 SoManyDeadLings wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:48 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 18:47 Skvid wrote:
Partially outplayed, partially bad decision making by JD. I guess the pressure of the finals did its toll on him.
Anyways GG's Any win by any player will partially rely on mistakes by his opponent. I disagree. "Mistakes" is too broadly defined. If a 50apm player beats a 30apm player in a TvT because the 50apm player macros 1 second faster, would you say it's because the 50apm player is better or the 30apm player made a mistake? Same logic applies to a 500apm player vs a 300apm player. You can win simply by being faster and better than your opponent.
Nah, mistakes are always made. The guy who minimizes his mistakes usually ends up winning.
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Baltimore, USA22251 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:12 SoManyDeadLings wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:48 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 18:47 Skvid wrote:
Partially outplayed, partially bad decision making by JD. I guess the pressure of the finals did its toll on him.
Anyways GG's Any win by any player will partially rely on mistakes by his opponent. I disagree. "Mistakes" is too broadly defined. If a 50apm player beats a 30apm player in a TvT because the 50apm player macros 1 second faster, would you say it's because the 50apm player is better or the 30apm player made a mistake? Same logic applies to a 500apm player vs a 300apm player. You can win simply by being faster and better than your opponent.
....... and since the other opponent is slower, thus not playing 'perfectly', thus making 'mistakes', ?
Not to mention, your example is GROSSLY over simplified.
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On May 29 2010 19:08 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:04 Nytefish wrote:
And about quick wins, there's such thing as mental and physical stamina, even if you're the best gamers in the world. and armchair sports psychologists like to pretend the threshold is at a definable location without any sort of logic or sense. jaedong can handle a single best of 5, i assure you. effort didn't zerg rush flash three times in a row because he was concerned he might be too tired to continue otherwise...
There's a lot more to a quick win than just the energy you save, a win from a cheesy play counts just as much as a hard fought management battle and getting a win can really undermine the confidence of your opponent.
Sure I'm not a psychologist, but what I say comes from experience in playing broodwar matches, something I think is far more relevant.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:11 Nytefish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:05 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:01 Nytefish wrote:
JD actually made the all-or-nothing micro choice on his first attempt. He could do a bunch of things:
1) Pick off outer buildings
2) Focus down the bunker with everything
3) Focus bunker but use half your hydras to target SCVs
He went for number 2, if it succeeds you will most likely win the game straight away, if it fails it should be over. That's just one of the standard trade-offs you encounter when cheesing. the bunker should be the lowest priority, under scvs, the two depots, the barracks, any goliaths, and any tanks. four marines aint shit to 20 hydras, why on earth would you focus fire a repairable structure with a bunch of hp -_- He was hoping it would die really fast in just a few seconds, turns out it was a bad decision since flash could fit so many SCV around it. So yes, it was a "dumb mistake" on his part I was just trying to explain the mentality behind it.
explain the mentality behind it? "hurp de durp hope this works LOL" isn't a mentality
you're talking about a player who has played thousands upon thousands of games of bw and telling me that jaedong's ability to recognize that a bunker with ten scvs around it probably isn't gonna die and really isn't his biggest concern goes out the window because of some mystical mental state he entered that allowed him to transcend bad decisions or at least excuse them because he really really really wanted to kill that bunker
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Braavos36372 Posts
in a related note
Liquibet
Rank Points Name
1 260 3 Lions
2 257 Hot_Bid
3 255 notrangerjoe
4 254 LunarDestiny
5 254 foodontable
6 253 skronch
7 253 miekniek
8 252 Gamjadori
9 251 writer22816
10 251 LoStYouRSkiLLS
FUUUUU
DAMN YOU 3 LIONS
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
I personally wouldn't anoint Effort as the best ZvTer right now over Jaedong just because Effort > Flash and Flash > Jaedong.
All Effort showed me was that he was able to mix things up, expose holes in opponent's defense, and capitalize on mistakes, which is all part of great gameplay. As for ZvT in general, I just don't think you can't judge Effort to be better than Jaedong based off three wins in the early game.
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On May 29 2010 19:08 Roffles wrote:
While I'm not a fan of Effort, I have to admit that his builds and gameplay were much more refined than Jaedong's. Sure, Flash made more missteps in his series vs Effort, but Effort was able to capitalize on those minor errors and take that to victory. His builds also showed that he was willing to switch things up once in a while, whereas I didn't see much of that from Jaedong.
You're right in it being more refined. Perhaps Jaedong is more dangerous if you can't deduce what's happening. Unfortunately for Jaedong, Flash is imba perceptive. Remember the double bunker on neo medusa vs Calm (I believe it was ) without even scouting the all in? Regardless, the only game I was truly disappointed in was the last game where he gave away his hydralisks in a pathetic manner. I want to see flash overcoming great obstacles not be given games. To Flash's credit though, he wouldn't let Jaedong out of his base without knowing what was coming (eg the scv + the vulture) which in itself is not very exciting but in the scope of the game is huge. Flash put down the second factory instead of what could have possibly been a starport when he saw the late natural gas.
GGs Lee Young Ho!
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:16 Roffles wrote:
I personally wouldn't anoint Effort as the best ZvTer right now over Jaedong just because Effort > Flash and Flash > Jaedong.
All Effort showed me was that he was able to mix things up, expose holes in opponent's defense, and capitalize on mistakes, which is all part of great gameplay. As for ZvT in general, I just don't think you can't judge Effort to be better than Jaedong based off three wins in the early game.
jaedong's zvt is pretty garbage these days...
edit before some idiot comes at me with tlpd stats: people win with garbage in progaming all the time
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Baltimore, USA22251 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:16 Hot_Bid wrote:in a related note Show nested quote +Liquibet
Rank Points Name
1 260 3 Lions
2 257 Hot_Bid
3 255 notrangerjoe
4 254 LunarDestiny
5 254 foodontable
6 253 skronch
7 253 miekniek
8 252 Gamjadori
9 251 writer22816
10 251 LoStYouRSkiLLS FUUUUU DAMN YOU 3 LIONS
Ip ban ftw. Abuse of power, gogogogo!
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On May 29 2010 19:16 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:11 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:05 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:01 Nytefish wrote:
JD actually made the all-or-nothing micro choice on his first attempt. He could do a bunch of things:
1) Pick off outer buildings
2) Focus down the bunker with everything
3) Focus bunker but use half your hydras to target SCVs
He went for number 2, if it succeeds you will most likely win the game straight away, if it fails it should be over. That's just one of the standard trade-offs you encounter when cheesing. the bunker should be the lowest priority, under scvs, the two depots, the barracks, any goliaths, and any tanks. four marines aint shit to 20 hydras, why on earth would you focus fire a repairable structure with a bunch of hp -_- He was hoping it would die really fast in just a few seconds, turns out it was a bad decision since flash could fit so many SCV around it. So yes, it was a "dumb mistake" on his part I was just trying to explain the mentality behind it. explain the mentality behind it? "hurp de durp hope this works LOL" isn't a mentality you're talking about a player who has played thousands upon thousands of games of bw and telling me that jaedong's ability to recognize that a bunker with ten scvs around it probably isn't gonna die and really isn't his biggest concern goes out the window because of some mystical mental state he entered that allowed him to transcend bad decisions or at least excuse them because he really really really wanted to kill that bunker
What are we even arguing about?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:19 Nytefish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:16 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:11 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:05 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:01 Nytefish wrote:
JD actually made the all-or-nothing micro choice on his first attempt. He could do a bunch of things:
1) Pick off outer buildings
2) Focus down the bunker with everything
3) Focus bunker but use half your hydras to target SCVs
He went for number 2, if it succeeds you will most likely win the game straight away, if it fails it should be over. That's just one of the standard trade-offs you encounter when cheesing. the bunker should be the lowest priority, under scvs, the two depots, the barracks, any goliaths, and any tanks. four marines aint shit to 20 hydras, why on earth would you focus fire a repairable structure with a bunch of hp -_- He was hoping it would die really fast in just a few seconds, turns out it was a bad decision since flash could fit so many SCV around it. So yes, it was a "dumb mistake" on his part I was just trying to explain the mentality behind it. explain the mentality behind it? "hurp de durp hope this works LOL" isn't a mentality you're talking about a player who has played thousands upon thousands of games of bw and telling me that jaedong's ability to recognize that a bunker with ten scvs around it probably isn't gonna die and really isn't his biggest concern goes out the window because of some mystical mental state he entered that allowed him to transcend bad decisions or at least excuse them because he really really really wanted to kill that bunker What are we even arguing about?
you said some really boneheaded stuff about how a hydra bust goes down and now i'm telling you what a silly child you are, of course
don't mind me, i'm just a hater. fo real about the boneheadedness though, i pray you're not a zerg player!
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:17 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:16 Roffles wrote:
I personally wouldn't anoint Effort as the best ZvTer right now over Jaedong just because Effort > Flash and Flash > Jaedong.
All Effort showed me was that he was able to mix things up, expose holes in opponent's defense, and capitalize on mistakes, which is all part of great gameplay. As for ZvT in general, I just don't think you can't judge Effort to be better than Jaedong based off three wins in the early game. jaedong's zvt is pretty garbage these days... edit before some idiot comes at me with tlpd stats: people win with garbage in progaming all the time
But then again, isn't everyone's ZvT garbage these days? Just seems that way these days. Zergs feasting on Protosses, Protosses getting shafted left and right, Terran cleaning up the Zergs. Back to how it used to be.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:22 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:17 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:16 Roffles wrote:
I personally wouldn't anoint Effort as the best ZvTer right now over Jaedong just because Effort > Flash and Flash > Jaedong.
All Effort showed me was that he was able to mix things up, expose holes in opponent's defense, and capitalize on mistakes, which is all part of great gameplay. As for ZvT in general, I just don't think you can't judge Effort to be better than Jaedong based off three wins in the early game. jaedong's zvt is pretty garbage these days... edit before some idiot comes at me with tlpd stats: people win with garbage in progaming all the time But then again, isn't everyone's ZvT garbage these days?
...yeah, more or less plz new maps
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On May 29 2010 19:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:19 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:16 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:11 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:05 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:01 Nytefish wrote:
JD actually made the all-or-nothing micro choice on his first attempt. He could do a bunch of things:
1) Pick off outer buildings
2) Focus down the bunker with everything
3) Focus bunker but use half your hydras to target SCVs
He went for number 2, if it succeeds you will most likely win the game straight away, if it fails it should be over. That's just one of the standard trade-offs you encounter when cheesing. the bunker should be the lowest priority, under scvs, the two depots, the barracks, any goliaths, and any tanks. four marines aint shit to 20 hydras, why on earth would you focus fire a repairable structure with a bunch of hp -_- He was hoping it would die really fast in just a few seconds, turns out it was a bad decision since flash could fit so many SCV around it. So yes, it was a "dumb mistake" on his part I was just trying to explain the mentality behind it. explain the mentality behind it? "hurp de durp hope this works LOL" isn't a mentality you're talking about a player who has played thousands upon thousands of games of bw and telling me that jaedong's ability to recognize that a bunker with ten scvs around it probably isn't gonna die and really isn't his biggest concern goes out the window because of some mystical mental state he entered that allowed him to transcend bad decisions or at least excuse them because he really really really wanted to kill that bunker What are we even arguing about? you said some really boneheaded stuff about how a hydra bust goes down and now i'm telling you what a silly child you are, of course don't mind me, i'm just a hater. fo real about the boneheadedness though, i pray you're not a zerg player!
I was talking more about what he could do rather than what he should do. When I listed those options earlier I didn't mean to imply they were all equal and valid choices in every situation.
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Protoss favored maps now? At least give those poor scum a chance!
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:25 Nytefish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:19 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:16 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:11 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:05 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:01 Nytefish wrote:
JD actually made the all-or-nothing micro choice on his first attempt. He could do a bunch of things:
1) Pick off outer buildings
2) Focus down the bunker with everything
3) Focus bunker but use half your hydras to target SCVs
He went for number 2, if it succeeds you will most likely win the game straight away, if it fails it should be over. That's just one of the standard trade-offs you encounter when cheesing. the bunker should be the lowest priority, under scvs, the two depots, the barracks, any goliaths, and any tanks. four marines aint shit to 20 hydras, why on earth would you focus fire a repairable structure with a bunch of hp -_- He was hoping it would die really fast in just a few seconds, turns out it was a bad decision since flash could fit so many SCV around it. So yes, it was a "dumb mistake" on his part I was just trying to explain the mentality behind it. explain the mentality behind it? "hurp de durp hope this works LOL" isn't a mentality you're talking about a player who has played thousands upon thousands of games of bw and telling me that jaedong's ability to recognize that a bunker with ten scvs around it probably isn't gonna die and really isn't his biggest concern goes out the window because of some mystical mental state he entered that allowed him to transcend bad decisions or at least excuse them because he really really really wanted to kill that bunker What are we even arguing about? you said some really boneheaded stuff about how a hydra bust goes down and now i'm telling you what a silly child you are, of course don't mind me, i'm just a hater. fo real about the boneheadedness though, i pray you're not a zerg player! I was talking more about what he could do rather than what he should do. When I listed those options earlier I didn't mean to imply they were all equal and valid choices in every situation.
whats the point of that? you might as well have included "send your hydras to the corner of the map and do nothing" to the list. its only slightly worse than putting half your hydras on the bunker and the other half on the scvs
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On May 29 2010 19:25 Megalisk wrote:
Protoss favored maps now? At least give those poor scum a chance!
The irony is if this happens, it just screws over the Terrans other than Flash even more. None of them are making any headway in leagues even with the good maps but Flash is masking this fact by crushinating everybody. Flash will continue to dominate on good P maps (Katrina/Medusa/etc.) and Terrans will just get owned even worse.
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Braavos36372 Posts
seriously, this result makes me so happy
all those flash fanboys whining and discounting effort's win in the OSL finals now can't say anything, because the exact same arguments apply to this MSL series
rofl
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:25 Megalisk wrote:
Protoss favored maps now? At least give those poor scum a chance!
honestly i'd almost be down for some katrina. a new season of protoss players winning will breathe some life into us, new maps new build orders!
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On May 29 2010 19:13 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:10 Letmelose wrote:On May 29 2010 19:06 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 19:04 Letmelose wrote:On May 29 2010 18:52 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 18:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jaedong's builds were TERRIBLE i was giggling pretty hard in set 3
effort best zerg now i guess? lolol I did not even dream of saying this with a straight face just four weeks ago, but this month, Effort's the best Zerg on the planet. We saw how horribly Effort failed once he was gunned by everyone. Jaedong has been dealing with it ever since he replaced Savior as the best gamer on the planet. Jaedong used to be so ahead of the pack in terms of micromanagement and multitasking skills, that these skills alone won him a lot of games, but these days that's sadly no longer the case. We'll see how Effort deals with every other gamer around throwing every trick up their sleave in the book in order to bring him down now that he is in the spotlight again. If he survives that, then we can talk. Note how I said "this month." You really going to argue with that? Who was better this month? Effort's only two losses came in the OSL Finals. I thought you held Effort in higher regard than simply settling for him being the "flavour of the month". Even I expect more things from the kid, and I say that as someone who is more into Zero. What did you want me to say? That this proves that Effort is somehow better than Jaedong for the past two years? That's just stupid. Of course JD is the most accomplished and best Zerg in the history of StarCraft. I just think its hilarious that people were discounting Effort's win as a "fluke" when we're clearly dealing with players (Flash, JD, Effort, etc) who are capable of beating each other in Bo5s. Right now though, Effort's better than JD, at least in ZvT. It's been a long time since we've been able to say a Z is better than JD at any of the three MUs.
It's been for quite some time now that the likes of Effort and Zero can literally play comparetively to Jaedong's absolute peak skill level. I was mistaken for thinking that you were basically predicting the ascension of Effort as the next big thing in Starcraft; something that I believe he is perfectly capable of being.
The thing is. It is easy (relatively speaking of course) to look great when things are going great for you, and everything is working out. Effort has both the mechanics and trickery to defeat Flash, and has shown that this month (something Jaedong totally failed in). However, what I feel like you are doing is "cashing-in" on Effort the moment he looked like the superior zerg in comparison with Jaedong.
Surely a fan such as yourself could have the faith in Effort to survive the oncoming onslaught, struggle through come rain or shine, and STILL look like the greatest zerg around, rather than taking a somewhat cheap shot at the greatest zerg around in the scene when he has just taken a low blow.
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Seems to me like Jaedong tried to do some cute things to get an edge. But he read the situations wrong and it failed epically.
Just like poker a lot of SC moves have an eV. Flash is playing well and consistently winning by making risky moves that pay off more often than not.
You make a decision and if it works out, you're praised as a genius. If you fail, then you were dumb/insane for trying it in the first place. The same can be said for Flash's games 1-2, and 3-5 vs Effort. Flash fans will deny that games 3-5 matter, because somehow Flash suddenly had a stroke and "wasn't playing like himself."
JD's play however was pretty risky with all these fast expansions and tiny army. He has the mechanics to play standard and keep up with Flash in terms of execution. I'm disappointed he didn't 2-hatch mutas at least once.
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On May 29 2010 19:27 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:25 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:19 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:16 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:11 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:05 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:01 Nytefish wrote:
JD actually made the all-or-nothing micro choice on his first attempt. He could do a bunch of things:
1) Pick off outer buildings
2) Focus down the bunker with everything
3) Focus bunker but use half your hydras to target SCVs
He went for number 2, if it succeeds you will most likely win the game straight away, if it fails it should be over. That's just one of the standard trade-offs you encounter when cheesing. the bunker should be the lowest priority, under scvs, the two depots, the barracks, any goliaths, and any tanks. four marines aint shit to 20 hydras, why on earth would you focus fire a repairable structure with a bunch of hp -_- He was hoping it would die really fast in just a few seconds, turns out it was a bad decision since flash could fit so many SCV around it. So yes, it was a "dumb mistake" on his part I was just trying to explain the mentality behind it. explain the mentality behind it? "hurp de durp hope this works LOL" isn't a mentality you're talking about a player who has played thousands upon thousands of games of bw and telling me that jaedong's ability to recognize that a bunker with ten scvs around it probably isn't gonna die and really isn't his biggest concern goes out the window because of some mystical mental state he entered that allowed him to transcend bad decisions or at least excuse them because he really really really wanted to kill that bunker What are we even arguing about? you said some really boneheaded stuff about how a hydra bust goes down and now i'm telling you what a silly child you are, of course don't mind me, i'm just a hater. fo real about the boneheadedness though, i pray you're not a zerg player! I was talking more about what he could do rather than what he should do. When I listed those options earlier I didn't mean to imply they were all equal and valid choices in every situation. whats the point of that? you might as well have included "send your hydras to the corner of the map and do nothing" to the list. its only slightly worse than putting half your hydras on the bunker and the other half on the scvs
The difference is all those options can work in given scenarios.
I said half because there's no point overkilling the SCVs, you might as well have the rest of your hydras shooting the bunker to make him want to keep them there repairing it.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
you read too much. hotbid is basically just drawing attention to how much better effort's been this month than jaedong, but the focus is the magnitude of that fact (because of jaedong's incredible powers) not braying about how jaedong ain't shit because he's an effort fan
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:27 Hot_Bid wrote:
seriously, this result makes me so happy
all those flash fanboys whining and discounting effort's win in the OSL finals now can't say anything, because the exact same arguments apply to this MSL series
rofl If Flash had made the same mistakes he made against Effort against Jaedong I have zero doubt that Jaedong would have won those games too 
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:27 Hot_Bid wrote:
seriously, this result makes me so happy
all those flash fanboys whining and discounting effort's win in the OSL finals now can't say anything, because the exact same arguments apply to this MSL series
rofl
Rofl, like this would ever happen. All fanboys are fucking lol.
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Braavos36372 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:28 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:13 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 19:10 Letmelose wrote:On May 29 2010 19:06 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 19:04 Letmelose wrote:On May 29 2010 18:52 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 18:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jaedong's builds were TERRIBLE i was giggling pretty hard in set 3
effort best zerg now i guess? lolol I did not even dream of saying this with a straight face just four weeks ago, but this month, Effort's the best Zerg on the planet. We saw how horribly Effort failed once he was gunned by everyone. Jaedong has been dealing with it ever since he replaced Savior as the best gamer on the planet. Jaedong used to be so ahead of the pack in terms of micromanagement and multitasking skills, that these skills alone won him a lot of games, but these days that's sadly no longer the case. We'll see how Effort deals with every other gamer around throwing every trick up their sleave in the book in order to bring him down now that he is in the spotlight again. If he survives that, then we can talk. Note how I said "this month." You really going to argue with that? Who was better this month? Effort's only two losses came in the OSL Finals. I thought you held Effort in higher regard than simply settling for him being the "flavour of the month". Even I expect more things from the kid, and I say that as someone who is more into Zero. What did you want me to say? That this proves that Effort is somehow better than Jaedong for the past two years? That's just stupid. Of course JD is the most accomplished and best Zerg in the history of StarCraft. I just think its hilarious that people were discounting Effort's win as a "fluke" when we're clearly dealing with players (Flash, JD, Effort, etc) who are capable of beating each other in Bo5s. Right now though, Effort's better than JD, at least in ZvT. It's been a long time since we've been able to say a Z is better than JD at any of the three MUs. It's been for quite some time now that the likes of Effort and Zero can literally play comparetively to Jaedong's absolute peak skill level. I was mistaken for thinking that you were basically predicting the ascension of Effort as the next big thing in Starcraft; something that I believe he is perfectly capable of being. The thing is. It is easy (relatively speaking of course) to look great when things are going great for you, and everything is working out. Effort has both the mechanics and trickery to defeat Flash, and has shown that this month (something Jaedong totally failed in). However, what I feel like you are doing is "cashing-in" on Effort the moment he looked like the superior zerg in comparison with Jaedong. Surely a fan such as yourself could have the faith in Effort to survive the oncoming onslaught, struggle through come rain or shine, and STILL look like the greatest zerg around, rather than taking a somewhat cheap shot at the greatest zerg around in the scene when he has just taken a low blow.
Since when is stating the obvious a "cheap shot."
I think its funny you view my blog as taking a shot at JD when its actually validating Effort's win. It has nothing to do with insulting JD. Have you read my article on JD?
I'm not a blind fanboy. I know Effort is not the second coming of JD. There probably will never be one, just like there was never a second Boxer.
But what I do know is the best player from my favorite team rose from a horrible slump after the worst betrayal of CJ and its fans ever, and won the OSL. There was mass whining about how he didn't deserve it, and he played "cheesy" or it was a fluke, or Flash just handed it to him.
And to watch Flash one week later kick the crap out of JD after Effort helped him practice... well that's pretty cool.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:31 Nytefish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:27 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:25 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:19 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:16 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:11 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:05 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:01 Nytefish wrote:
JD actually made the all-or-nothing micro choice on his first attempt. He could do a bunch of things:
1) Pick off outer buildings
2) Focus down the bunker with everything
3) Focus bunker but use half your hydras to target SCVs
He went for number 2, if it succeeds you will most likely win the game straight away, if it fails it should be over. That's just one of the standard trade-offs you encounter when cheesing. the bunker should be the lowest priority, under scvs, the two depots, the barracks, any goliaths, and any tanks. four marines aint shit to 20 hydras, why on earth would you focus fire a repairable structure with a bunch of hp -_- He was hoping it would die really fast in just a few seconds, turns out it was a bad decision since flash could fit so many SCV around it. So yes, it was a "dumb mistake" on his part I was just trying to explain the mentality behind it. explain the mentality behind it? "hurp de durp hope this works LOL" isn't a mentality you're talking about a player who has played thousands upon thousands of games of bw and telling me that jaedong's ability to recognize that a bunker with ten scvs around it probably isn't gonna die and really isn't his biggest concern goes out the window because of some mystical mental state he entered that allowed him to transcend bad decisions or at least excuse them because he really really really wanted to kill that bunker What are we even arguing about? you said some really boneheaded stuff about how a hydra bust goes down and now i'm telling you what a silly child you are, of course don't mind me, i'm just a hater. fo real about the boneheadedness though, i pray you're not a zerg player! I was talking more about what he could do rather than what he should do. When I listed those options earlier I didn't mean to imply they were all equal and valid choices in every situation. whats the point of that? you might as well have included "send your hydras to the corner of the map and do nothing" to the list. its only slightly worse than putting half your hydras on the bunker and the other half on the scvs The difference is all those options can work in given scenarios. I said half because there's no point overkilling the SCVs, you might as well have the rest of your hydras shooting the bunker to make him want to keep them there repairing it.
treating bw as a series of imaginary scenarios only works if those scenarios have some sort of logical basis
you are trying (or tried to in your original post) justify a tremendously stupid work of micro by saying it was 'just one of many options & his mentality dictated that he chose this one'. that's BONEHEADED
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SC is such a fickle game.
If Flash moves out with slightly more caution in game 3 (it was a brilliant play by Effort but just saying) there's a good chance he wins that game and nobody's talking about Effort right now.
Similarly if Jaedong micros slightly better in game 2 at the muta/scourge/ling exchange (his Mutas basically didn't take shots and then he failed to get all 3 Valks with 3 Scourge hitting one) it might completely swing the pace of the series. Or if the Hydra bust is handled slightly better or Flash doesn't get his SCVs around the Bunker as completely.
At this level, tiny things swing everything. It's incredible to think about "what-ifs" sometimes.
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On May 29 2010 19:28 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:25 Megalisk wrote:
Protoss favored maps now? At least give those poor scum a chance! honestly i'd almost be down for some katrina. a new season of protoss players winning will breathe some life into us, new maps new build orders!
I'd actually like to see some toss dominance for once (can't believe I'm saying this O_O), I was never around to see toss raping everything, hell, even just a toss making it to a finals, and at least being competitive (movie -_-), would be nice. Perhaps free will get his wish next season.
AND BRING BACK HEARTBREAK RIDGE, IT MAY SUCK FOR TOSS BUT DAMN ITS A SEXY MAP
Also, Effort won this MSL for Flash, GJ EFFORT!
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Not going to argue, but these games left a bad taste in my mouth, just as the OSL finals did. T_T
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Braavos36372 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:31 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:27 Hot_Bid wrote:
seriously, this result makes me so happy
all those flash fanboys whining and discounting effort's win in the OSL finals now can't say anything, because the exact same arguments apply to this MSL series
rofl If Flash had made the same mistakes he made against Effort against Jaedong I have zero doubt that Jaedong would have won those games too
Lol Flash plays horrible loses to Effort, Flash plays great beats JD. It's all about Flash isn't it. Can't you just recognize good play when it happens? If you discount Effort's win in OSL as a "fluke" you're discounting Flash's win in MSL as a fluke. You can literally take your blog, replace "early attack" with "14cc" and rewrite it to fit this series. It was 100% wrong when you wrote it, and it's still wrong now. Both Effort and Flash deserve their titles.
Effort was even in Game 0 (killed a valk) and in Game 1 (not a rush) midgame. He was marginally ahead mid to late game in Game 2. He made a great ling micro attack in Game 3. He played an awesome management, scouting, and sense Game in Game 4. And is it Effort's fault that Flash defended poorly in Game 5?
Effort played great in the OSL Final and deserved his win. But you however say he's "still bad" and doesn't deserve it because his race was imbalanced, early Zerg aggression is imbalanced, and punishing 14cc is "dirty." Please.
Btw, Jaedong's win over Flash in GOM 3-0 used much of the same builds Effort did, but nobody is discounting those as flukes are they? Also is this game a fluke???
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On May 29 2010 18:56 Iplaythings wrote:
Guys, flash is slumping, his vz went down to below 70%
SLUMPPPP!!!
after playing JD went back up BARELY above 70%
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On May 29 2010 19:33 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:31 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:27 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:25 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:19 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:16 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:11 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:05 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:01 Nytefish wrote:
JD actually made the all-or-nothing micro choice on his first attempt. He could do a bunch of things:
1) Pick off outer buildings
2) Focus down the bunker with everything
3) Focus bunker but use half your hydras to target SCVs
He went for number 2, if it succeeds you will most likely win the game straight away, if it fails it should be over. That's just one of the standard trade-offs you encounter when cheesing. the bunker should be the lowest priority, under scvs, the two depots, the barracks, any goliaths, and any tanks. four marines aint shit to 20 hydras, why on earth would you focus fire a repairable structure with a bunch of hp -_- He was hoping it would die really fast in just a few seconds, turns out it was a bad decision since flash could fit so many SCV around it. So yes, it was a "dumb mistake" on his part I was just trying to explain the mentality behind it. explain the mentality behind it? "hurp de durp hope this works LOL" isn't a mentality you're talking about a player who has played thousands upon thousands of games of bw and telling me that jaedong's ability to recognize that a bunker with ten scvs around it probably isn't gonna die and really isn't his biggest concern goes out the window because of some mystical mental state he entered that allowed him to transcend bad decisions or at least excuse them because he really really really wanted to kill that bunker What are we even arguing about? you said some really boneheaded stuff about how a hydra bust goes down and now i'm telling you what a silly child you are, of course don't mind me, i'm just a hater. fo real about the boneheadedness though, i pray you're not a zerg player! I was talking more about what he could do rather than what he should do. When I listed those options earlier I didn't mean to imply they were all equal and valid choices in every situation. whats the point of that? you might as well have included "send your hydras to the corner of the map and do nothing" to the list. its only slightly worse than putting half your hydras on the bunker and the other half on the scvs The difference is all those options can work in given scenarios. I said half because there's no point overkilling the SCVs, you might as well have the rest of your hydras shooting the bunker to make him want to keep them there repairing it. treating bw as a series of imaginary scenarios only works if those scenarios have some sort of logical basis you are trying (or tried to in your original post) justify a tremendously stupid work of micro by saying it was 'just one of many options & his mentality dictated that he chose this one'. that's BONEHEADED
I wasn't trying to justify a mistake, just trying to figure out the thought process behind it. You seem to have this impression that I'm trying to say mistakes like that are acceptable, that's probably miscommunication from me earlier.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:40 Nytefish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:33 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:31 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:27 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:25 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:19 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:16 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:11 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:05 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
[quote]
the bunker should be the lowest priority, under scvs, the two depots, the barracks, any goliaths, and any tanks.
four marines aint shit to 20 hydras, why on earth would you focus fire a repairable structure with a bunch of hp -_- He was hoping it would die really fast in just a few seconds, turns out it was a bad decision since flash could fit so many SCV around it. So yes, it was a "dumb mistake" on his part I was just trying to explain the mentality behind it. explain the mentality behind it? "hurp de durp hope this works LOL" isn't a mentality you're talking about a player who has played thousands upon thousands of games of bw and telling me that jaedong's ability to recognize that a bunker with ten scvs around it probably isn't gonna die and really isn't his biggest concern goes out the window because of some mystical mental state he entered that allowed him to transcend bad decisions or at least excuse them because he really really really wanted to kill that bunker What are we even arguing about? you said some really boneheaded stuff about how a hydra bust goes down and now i'm telling you what a silly child you are, of course don't mind me, i'm just a hater. fo real about the boneheadedness though, i pray you're not a zerg player! I was talking more about what he could do rather than what he should do. When I listed those options earlier I didn't mean to imply they were all equal and valid choices in every situation. whats the point of that? you might as well have included "send your hydras to the corner of the map and do nothing" to the list. its only slightly worse than putting half your hydras on the bunker and the other half on the scvs The difference is all those options can work in given scenarios. I said half because there's no point overkilling the SCVs, you might as well have the rest of your hydras shooting the bunker to make him want to keep them there repairing it. treating bw as a series of imaginary scenarios only works if those scenarios have some sort of logical basis you are trying (or tried to in your original post) justify a tremendously stupid work of micro by saying it was 'just one of many options & his mentality dictated that he chose this one'. that's BONEHEADED I wasn't trying to justify a mistake, just trying to figure out the thought process behind it. You seem to have this impression that I'm trying to say mistakes like that are acceptable, that's probably miscommunication from me earlier.
i'm trying to make you a better poster here. it's still an entirely meaningless statement. when you try to figure out the thought process behind a stupid move, you're just creating scenarios in your head where you figure a guy might do the stupid move in question. the problem with that is it's still a stupid move, so what does the thought process behind it matter?
you could have posted something about how you figure jaedong probably made 3 hatcheries instead of 2 because a fortune teller told him 3 was his lucky number and the statement would have just as much substance as your hypothetical hydra bust checklist
if you say something intelligent about hydra busts i'll leave you alone
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On May 29 2010 19:45 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:40 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:33 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:31 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:27 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:25 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:19 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:16 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:11 Nytefish wrote:
[quote]
He was hoping it would die really fast in just a few seconds, turns out it was a bad decision since flash could fit so many SCV around it. So yes, it was a "dumb mistake" on his part I was just trying to explain the mentality behind it. explain the mentality behind it? "hurp de durp hope this works LOL" isn't a mentality you're talking about a player who has played thousands upon thousands of games of bw and telling me that jaedong's ability to recognize that a bunker with ten scvs around it probably isn't gonna die and really isn't his biggest concern goes out the window because of some mystical mental state he entered that allowed him to transcend bad decisions or at least excuse them because he really really really wanted to kill that bunker What are we even arguing about? you said some really boneheaded stuff about how a hydra bust goes down and now i'm telling you what a silly child you are, of course don't mind me, i'm just a hater. fo real about the boneheadedness though, i pray you're not a zerg player! I was talking more about what he could do rather than what he should do. When I listed those options earlier I didn't mean to imply they were all equal and valid choices in every situation. whats the point of that? you might as well have included "send your hydras to the corner of the map and do nothing" to the list. its only slightly worse than putting half your hydras on the bunker and the other half on the scvs The difference is all those options can work in given scenarios. I said half because there's no point overkilling the SCVs, you might as well have the rest of your hydras shooting the bunker to make him want to keep them there repairing it. treating bw as a series of imaginary scenarios only works if those scenarios have some sort of logical basis you are trying (or tried to in your original post) justify a tremendously stupid work of micro by saying it was 'just one of many options & his mentality dictated that he chose this one'. that's BONEHEADED I wasn't trying to justify a mistake, just trying to figure out the thought process behind it. You seem to have this impression that I'm trying to say mistakes like that are acceptable, that's probably miscommunication from me earlier. i'm trying to make you a better poster here. it's still an entirely meaningless statement. when you try to figure out the thought process behind a stupid move, you're just creating scenarios in your head where you figure a guy might do the stupid move in question. the problem with that is it's still a stupid move, so what does the thought process behind it matter? you could have posted something about how you figure jaedong probably made 3 hatcheries instead of 2 because a fortune teller told him 3 was his lucky number and the statement would have just as much substance as your hypothetical hydra bust checklist
Because he did the stupid decision so I'm relating it to the games I've played where something similar has happened. I can see that it was dumb in that particular game, but it doesn't always turn out that badly.
Of course I'm only a C+ player so it's possible that targeting the bunker is always a dumb move and my opponents just suck.
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It pains me to say it, but Flash was 2 leagues ahead of both Effort and Jaedong. I feel so bad he didn't win both titles this year, he clearly deserved it.
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Braavos36372 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:48 Smu wrote:
It pains me to say it, but Flash was 2 leagues ahead of both Effort and Jaedong. I feel so bad he didn't win both titles this year, he clearly deserved it.
wow and all this time i thought that the player who actually wins the finals deserves to win the finals more than the player that loses
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:48 Nytefish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:45 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:40 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:33 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:31 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:27 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:25 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:19 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:16 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
[quote]
explain the mentality behind it? "hurp de durp hope this works LOL" isn't a mentality
you're talking about a player who has played thousands upon thousands of games of bw and telling me that jaedong's ability to recognize that a bunker with ten scvs around it probably isn't gonna die and really isn't his biggest concern goes out the window because of some mystical mental state he entered that allowed him to transcend bad decisions or at least excuse them because he really really really wanted to kill that bunker What are we even arguing about? you said some really boneheaded stuff about how a hydra bust goes down and now i'm telling you what a silly child you are, of course don't mind me, i'm just a hater. fo real about the boneheadedness though, i pray you're not a zerg player! I was talking more about what he could do rather than what he should do. When I listed those options earlier I didn't mean to imply they were all equal and valid choices in every situation. whats the point of that? you might as well have included "send your hydras to the corner of the map and do nothing" to the list. its only slightly worse than putting half your hydras on the bunker and the other half on the scvs The difference is all those options can work in given scenarios. I said half because there's no point overkilling the SCVs, you might as well have the rest of your hydras shooting the bunker to make him want to keep them there repairing it. treating bw as a series of imaginary scenarios only works if those scenarios have some sort of logical basis you are trying (or tried to in your original post) justify a tremendously stupid work of micro by saying it was 'just one of many options & his mentality dictated that he chose this one'. that's BONEHEADED I wasn't trying to justify a mistake, just trying to figure out the thought process behind it. You seem to have this impression that I'm trying to say mistakes like that are acceptable, that's probably miscommunication from me earlier. i'm trying to make you a better poster here. it's still an entirely meaningless statement. when you try to figure out the thought process behind a stupid move, you're just creating scenarios in your head where you figure a guy might do the stupid move in question. the problem with that is it's still a stupid move, so what does the thought process behind it matter? you could have posted something about how you figure jaedong probably made 3 hatcheries instead of 2 because a fortune teller told him 3 was his lucky number and the statement would have just as much substance as your hypothetical hydra bust checklist Because he did the stupid decision so I'm relating it to the games I've played where something similar has happened. I can see that it was dumb in that particular game, but it doesn't always turn out that badly.
thank you for admitting you are drawing on your own experiences making stupid decisions. realize what a vast disconnect there is between your experiences in these situations, and jaedong's. now your post also could have read, "jaedong could have won if he went guardians after his hydra bust failed"
edit: i wasnt kidding i'm just picking on you because your post contained strange information regarding hydra busts
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:36 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:31 Plexa wrote:On May 29 2010 19:27 Hot_Bid wrote:
seriously, this result makes me so happy
all those flash fanboys whining and discounting effort's win in the OSL finals now can't say anything, because the exact same arguments apply to this MSL series
rofl If Flash had made the same mistakes he made against Effort against Jaedong I have zero doubt that Jaedong would have won those games too Lol Flash plays horrible loses to Effort, Flash plays great beats JD. It's all about Flash isn't it. Can't you just recognize good play when it happens? If you discount Effort's win in OSL as a "fluke" you're discounting Flash's win in MSL as a fluke. You can literally take your blog, replace "early attack" with "14cc" and rewrite it to fit this series. It was 100% wrong when you wrote it, and it's still wrong now. Both Effort and Flash deserve their titles. Effort was even in Game 0 (killed a valk) and in Game 1 (not a rush) midgame. He was marginally ahead mid to late game in Game 2. He made a great ling micro attack in Game 3. He played an awesome management, scouting, and sense Game in Game 4. And is it Effort's fault that Flash defended poorly in Game 5? Effort played great in the OSL Final and deserved his win. But you however say he's "still bad" and doesn't deserve it because his race was imbalanced, early Zerg aggression is imbalanced, and punishing 14cc is "dirty." Please. Btw, Jaedong's win over Flash in GOM 3-0 used much of the same builds Effort did, but nobody is discounting those as flukes are they? Check my fantasy team fool
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effort played better on the day of the finals, so he won fair and square and deservedly. I think Flash is still the overall better player, but finals aren't won by overall statistics, they're won on the day! Anyone who discounts effort's OSL win just because of Flash's stats is silly.
Flash completely made up for his loss in the OSL today though, and I think he'll come right back and win the Golden Mouse next season
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:51 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:48 Smu wrote:
It pains me to say it, but Flash was 2 leagues ahead of both Effort and Jaedong. I feel so bad he didn't win both titles this year, he clearly deserved it. wow and all this time i thought that the player who actually wins the finals deserves to win the finals more than the player that loses
no, its the player who wanted it reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeal bad, way more than the other guy. you gotta want it, you know?!
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On May 29 2010 19:52 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:48 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:45 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:40 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:33 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:31 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:27 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:25 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:19 Nytefish wrote:
[quote]
What are we even arguing about?
you said some really boneheaded stuff about how a hydra bust goes down and now i'm telling you what a silly child you are, of course don't mind me, i'm just a hater. fo real about the boneheadedness though, i pray you're not a zerg player! I was talking more about what he could do rather than what he should do. When I listed those options earlier I didn't mean to imply they were all equal and valid choices in every situation. whats the point of that? you might as well have included "send your hydras to the corner of the map and do nothing" to the list. its only slightly worse than putting half your hydras on the bunker and the other half on the scvs The difference is all those options can work in given scenarios. I said half because there's no point overkilling the SCVs, you might as well have the rest of your hydras shooting the bunker to make him want to keep them there repairing it. treating bw as a series of imaginary scenarios only works if those scenarios have some sort of logical basis you are trying (or tried to in your original post) justify a tremendously stupid work of micro by saying it was 'just one of many options & his mentality dictated that he chose this one'. that's BONEHEADED I wasn't trying to justify a mistake, just trying to figure out the thought process behind it. You seem to have this impression that I'm trying to say mistakes like that are acceptable, that's probably miscommunication from me earlier. i'm trying to make you a better poster here. it's still an entirely meaningless statement. when you try to figure out the thought process behind a stupid move, you're just creating scenarios in your head where you figure a guy might do the stupid move in question. the problem with that is it's still a stupid move, so what does the thought process behind it matter? you could have posted something about how you figure jaedong probably made 3 hatcheries instead of 2 because a fortune teller told him 3 was his lucky number and the statement would have just as much substance as your hypothetical hydra bust checklist Because he did the stupid decision so I'm relating it to the games I've played where something similar has happened. I can see that it was dumb in that particular game, but it doesn't always turn out that badly. thank you for admitting you are drawing on your own experiences making stupid decisions. realize what a vast disconnect there is between your experiences in these situations, and jaedong's. now your post also could have read, "jaedong could have won if he went guardians after his hydra bust failed"
Yes it was a mistake to talk as if I was trying to state fact rather than what my own limited knowledge devised, but I was typing it out quickly and didn't have time to add disclaimers onto the end of every single post.
Anyway what I posted is true at least up to whatever rank I got to, so take from that what you will. I'm not trying to advise progamers on how to hydra bust lol.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:54 Nytefish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:52 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:48 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:45 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:40 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:33 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:31 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:27 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 29 2010 19:25 Nytefish wrote:On May 29 2010 19:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
[quote]
you said some really boneheaded stuff about how a hydra bust goes down and now i'm telling you what a silly child you are, of course
don't mind me, i'm just a hater. fo real about the boneheadedness though, i pray you're not a zerg player! I was talking more about what he could do rather than what he should do. When I listed those options earlier I didn't mean to imply they were all equal and valid choices in every situation. whats the point of that? you might as well have included "send your hydras to the corner of the map and do nothing" to the list. its only slightly worse than putting half your hydras on the bunker and the other half on the scvs The difference is all those options can work in given scenarios. I said half because there's no point overkilling the SCVs, you might as well have the rest of your hydras shooting the bunker to make him want to keep them there repairing it. treating bw as a series of imaginary scenarios only works if those scenarios have some sort of logical basis you are trying (or tried to in your original post) justify a tremendously stupid work of micro by saying it was 'just one of many options & his mentality dictated that he chose this one'. that's BONEHEADED I wasn't trying to justify a mistake, just trying to figure out the thought process behind it. You seem to have this impression that I'm trying to say mistakes like that are acceptable, that's probably miscommunication from me earlier. i'm trying to make you a better poster here. it's still an entirely meaningless statement. when you try to figure out the thought process behind a stupid move, you're just creating scenarios in your head where you figure a guy might do the stupid move in question. the problem with that is it's still a stupid move, so what does the thought process behind it matter? you could have posted something about how you figure jaedong probably made 3 hatcheries instead of 2 because a fortune teller told him 3 was his lucky number and the statement would have just as much substance as your hypothetical hydra bust checklist Because he did the stupid decision so I'm relating it to the games I've played where something similar has happened. I can see that it was dumb in that particular game, but it doesn't always turn out that badly. thank you for admitting you are drawing on your own experiences making stupid decisions. realize what a vast disconnect there is between your experiences in these situations, and jaedong's. now your post also could have read, "jaedong could have won if he went guardians after his hydra bust failed" Yes it was a mistake to talk as if I was trying to state fact rather than what my own limited knowledge devised, but I was typing it out quickly and didn't have time to add disclaimers onto the end of every single post.
huzzah, i've won the day. hopefully everyone remembers my victory on this day instead of flash's
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Too bad you won against a nobody who was being polite and humble in the first place .
(of course this is just loser making excuses xD)
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:57 Nytefish wrote:Too bad you won against a nobody who was being polite and humble in the first place . (of course this is just loser making excuses xD)
it's cool, its +1 for me and statistics are EVERYTHING in bw
edit: sorry for trollin in your blog hotbid. feel free to heckle everyone who posts in mine
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On May 29 2010 19:32 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:28 Letmelose wrote:On May 29 2010 19:13 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 19:10 Letmelose wrote:On May 29 2010 19:06 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 19:04 Letmelose wrote:On May 29 2010 18:52 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 18:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jaedong's builds were TERRIBLE i was giggling pretty hard in set 3
effort best zerg now i guess? lolol I did not even dream of saying this with a straight face just four weeks ago, but this month, Effort's the best Zerg on the planet. We saw how horribly Effort failed once he was gunned by everyone. Jaedong has been dealing with it ever since he replaced Savior as the best gamer on the planet. Jaedong used to be so ahead of the pack in terms of micromanagement and multitasking skills, that these skills alone won him a lot of games, but these days that's sadly no longer the case. We'll see how Effort deals with every other gamer around throwing every trick up their sleave in the book in order to bring him down now that he is in the spotlight again. If he survives that, then we can talk. Note how I said "this month." You really going to argue with that? Who was better this month? Effort's only two losses came in the OSL Finals. I thought you held Effort in higher regard than simply settling for him being the "flavour of the month". Even I expect more things from the kid, and I say that as someone who is more into Zero. What did you want me to say? That this proves that Effort is somehow better than Jaedong for the past two years? That's just stupid. Of course JD is the most accomplished and best Zerg in the history of StarCraft. I just think its hilarious that people were discounting Effort's win as a "fluke" when we're clearly dealing with players (Flash, JD, Effort, etc) who are capable of beating each other in Bo5s. Right now though, Effort's better than JD, at least in ZvT. It's been a long time since we've been able to say a Z is better than JD at any of the three MUs. It's been for quite some time now that the likes of Effort and Zero can literally play comparetively to Jaedong's absolute peak skill level. I was mistaken for thinking that you were basically predicting the ascension of Effort as the next big thing in Starcraft; something that I believe he is perfectly capable of being. The thing is. It is easy (relatively speaking of course) to look great when things are going great for you, and everything is working out. Effort has both the mechanics and trickery to defeat Flash, and has shown that this month (something Jaedong totally failed in). However, what I feel like you are doing is "cashing-in" on Effort the moment he looked like the superior zerg in comparison with Jaedong. Surely a fan such as yourself could have the faith in Effort to survive the oncoming onslaught, struggle through come rain or shine, and STILL look like the greatest zerg around, rather than taking a somewhat cheap shot at the greatest zerg around in the scene when he has just taken a low blow. Since when is stating the obvious a "cheap shot." I think its funny you view my blog as taking a shot at JD when its actually validating Effort's win. It has nothing to do with insulting JD. Have you read my article on JD? I'm not a blind fanboy. I know Effort is not the second coming of JD. There probably will never be one, just like there was never a second Boxer. But what I do know is the best player from my favorite team rose from a horrible slump after the worst betrayal of CJ and its fans ever, and won the OSL. There was mass whining about how he didn't deserve it, and he played "cheesy" or it was a fluke, or Flash just handed it to him. And to watch Flash one week later kick the crap out of JD after Effort helped him practice... well that's pretty cool.
It feels like a cheap shot, because you know and I know the actual skill level (be it micromanagement, multitasking skills or in-game intuition) between the top level players is paper-thin. That's why we see so much risks being taken, because the players need it in order to win. The days of Jaedong taking everything Bisu could throw at him, and still coming up on top, or deconstructing Flash with his superhuman Hive play on Loki 2 are long gone, BUT, Jaedong has shown incredible longetivity as the top dog around, the likes of which is somewhat remeniscent to Nada. Effort outsmarted Flash, but we know that it took a little bit of luck on his side. We all know Flash had luck in his side, because there were some glaring holes in his play in order to come out ahead that he would have never made against a lesser opponent. In the end, results are results, but it irks me when Effort fans try to crown their prince the moment Jaedong falls to Flash. I don't deny it, but I feel like it sells both Jaedong and Effort short.
Jaedong has been pretty much there regardless of the map balance, the opponent, his personal biorhythm and the ever fickle-lady luck. Picking THIS moment, like you expect Effort to fall short in comparison with Jaedong (not neccessarily just his past accolades) later on, irks me. It feels wrong to compare to two even the situation is pretty much screaming for it... I don't know... maybe I'm just fucking pissed off.
I want to see a zerg that deals with every terran gayness there is in the book, and just stomps them to the ground for being the pussies they are. I'd be more than happy to settle for that zerg being Effort. We both know that he isn't there yet. Jaedong's game style isn't suited for that kind of play, and his astounding mechanical advantage over others is a thing of the past... FUCK... I'm just ranting... just go ahead and celebrate... I personally feel that you are selling Effort somewhat short if you think this will be the highlight of his career.
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Baltimore, USA22251 Posts
I feel like you write a lot without making any actual points -_-
Made worse because I think you're actually agreeing with everything HB has said but just... not agreeing?
Maybe it's just too late/early.
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On May 29 2010 20:07 EvilTeletubby wrote:I feel like you write a lot without making any actual points -_- Made worse because I think you're actually agreeing with everything HB has said but just... not agreeing? Maybe it's just too late/early.
I'm rambling because I'm pissed off. I saw Effort>Jaedong and instantly switched to psycho-babble mode. Gonna stop now.
Just one thing.
I just want anyone who is a firm supporter of Effort to show a little restraint when trying to pick this moment to compare the two players. It's unfair for both players. We already know Effort can play better than Jaedong on any given day. Hell, he's been capable of doing it since last year. I know it's the first time he's shown it on the highest stage, but don't sell him short by celebrating like it'll be his last time. Whatever, I'm probably not making any sense at all.
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Braavos36372 Posts
On May 29 2010 20:01 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:32 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 19:28 Letmelose wrote:On May 29 2010 19:13 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 19:10 Letmelose wrote:On May 29 2010 19:06 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 19:04 Letmelose wrote:On May 29 2010 18:52 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 18:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jaedong's builds were TERRIBLE i was giggling pretty hard in set 3
effort best zerg now i guess? lolol I did not even dream of saying this with a straight face just four weeks ago, but this month, Effort's the best Zerg on the planet. We saw how horribly Effort failed once he was gunned by everyone. Jaedong has been dealing with it ever since he replaced Savior as the best gamer on the planet. Jaedong used to be so ahead of the pack in terms of micromanagement and multitasking skills, that these skills alone won him a lot of games, but these days that's sadly no longer the case. We'll see how Effort deals with every other gamer around throwing every trick up their sleave in the book in order to bring him down now that he is in the spotlight again. If he survives that, then we can talk. Note how I said "this month." You really going to argue with that? Who was better this month? Effort's only two losses came in the OSL Finals. I thought you held Effort in higher regard than simply settling for him being the "flavour of the month". Even I expect more things from the kid, and I say that as someone who is more into Zero. What did you want me to say? That this proves that Effort is somehow better than Jaedong for the past two years? That's just stupid. Of course JD is the most accomplished and best Zerg in the history of StarCraft. I just think its hilarious that people were discounting Effort's win as a "fluke" when we're clearly dealing with players (Flash, JD, Effort, etc) who are capable of beating each other in Bo5s. Right now though, Effort's better than JD, at least in ZvT. It's been a long time since we've been able to say a Z is better than JD at any of the three MUs. It's been for quite some time now that the likes of Effort and Zero can literally play comparetively to Jaedong's absolute peak skill level. I was mistaken for thinking that you were basically predicting the ascension of Effort as the next big thing in Starcraft; something that I believe he is perfectly capable of being. The thing is. It is easy (relatively speaking of course) to look great when things are going great for you, and everything is working out. Effort has both the mechanics and trickery to defeat Flash, and has shown that this month (something Jaedong totally failed in). However, what I feel like you are doing is "cashing-in" on Effort the moment he looked like the superior zerg in comparison with Jaedong. Surely a fan such as yourself could have the faith in Effort to survive the oncoming onslaught, struggle through come rain or shine, and STILL look like the greatest zerg around, rather than taking a somewhat cheap shot at the greatest zerg around in the scene when he has just taken a low blow. Since when is stating the obvious a "cheap shot." I think its funny you view my blog as taking a shot at JD when its actually validating Effort's win. It has nothing to do with insulting JD. Have you read my article on JD? I'm not a blind fanboy. I know Effort is not the second coming of JD. There probably will never be one, just like there was never a second Boxer. But what I do know is the best player from my favorite team rose from a horrible slump after the worst betrayal of CJ and its fans ever, and won the OSL. There was mass whining about how he didn't deserve it, and he played "cheesy" or it was a fluke, or Flash just handed it to him. And to watch Flash one week later kick the crap out of JD after Effort helped him practice... well that's pretty cool. It feels like a cheap shot, because you know and I know the actual skill level (be it micromanagement, multitasking skills or in-game intuition) between the top level players is paper-thin. That's why we see so much risks being taken, because the players need it in order to win. The days of Jaedong taking everything Bisu could throw at him, and still coming up on top, or deconstructing Flash with his superhuman Hive play on Loki 2 are long gone, BUT, Jaedong has shown incredible longetivity as the top dog around, the likes of which is somewhat remeniscent to Nada. Effort outsmarted Flash, but we know that it took a little bit of luck on his side. We all know Flash had luck in his side, because there were some glaring holes in his play in order to come out ahead that he would have never made against a lesser opponent. In the end, results are results, but it irks me when Effort fans try to crown their prince the moment Jaedong falls to Flash. I don't deny it, but I feel like it sells both Jaedong and Effort short. Jaedong has been pretty much there regardless of the map balance, the opponent, his personal biorhythm and the ever fickle-lady luck. Picking THIS moment, like you expect Effort to fall short in comparison with Jaedong (not neccessarily just his past accolades) later on, irks me. It feels wrong to compare to two even the situation is pretty much screaming for it... I don't know... maybe I'm just fucking pissed off. I want to see a zerg that deals with every terran gayness there is in the book, and just stomps them to the ground for being the pussies they are. I'd be more than happy to settle for that zerg being Effort. We both know that he isn't there yet. Jaedong's game style isn't suited for that kind of play, and his astounding mechanical advantage over others is a thing of the past... FUCK... I'm just ranting... just go ahead and celebrate... I personally feel that you are selling Effort somewhat short if you think this will be the highlight of his career.
First, I have nothing against JD, I just used the MSL finals as a way to stick it to those Flash fans who tried so hard to belittle what Effort did.
I don't think I'm selling Effort short at all.
- His mentor and best player on CJ betrayed the entire team and him in a cheating scandal
- He slumped ridiculously badly (like 9 straight losses ZvT right before)
- He had an equipment malfunction and a ridiculous marathon tiebreaker
- He faced the best PvZ atm (Kal) and 3-0s him
- He then faces a player many say is the best ever, who just made consecutive double finals
- He was losing 0-2 and came back 3-2 in the most prestigious tourney finals
I don't think many things top that. Five weeks ago I was wondering if Effort would make the Ro16 let alone win the finals in such a manner.
I think it's ok to just be happy about this instead of somehow wanting Effort to win more titles immediately.
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On May 29 2010 18:48 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:47 Skvid wrote:
Partially outplayed, partially bad decision making by JD. I guess the pressure of the finals did its toll on him.
Anyways GG's Any win by any player will partially rely on mistakes by his opponent.
Yeah I'm getting pretty tired that people just keep on saying "player X didnt really win, player Y just lost" and "player x only won because player Y played terrible"
Just like effort only beat Kal because Kal failed and because ZvP is imba, not because effort played well.
Even in this series where JD had some very questionable decisionmaking in game 3 I'm, as a JD fan, not afraid to say that flash simply outplayed JD and fully deserved the win.
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Braavos36372 Posts
in game 3 jaedong broke down mentally and played on tilt after losing the first two games. if you and i and every fan could see that such a hydra break wouldn't work (the second and third times jd tried to break), why was jd so intent on forcing it?
i feel jd did not have a lot of mental strength this series. its very difficult to come back from 2-0 down, it requires a huge amount of balls and willpower to do what effort did in the osl finals, especially against someone as strong as flash.
i feel this psychological aspect, which is huge in SC (think about all the practice bonjwas who fail on TV), got sorely overlooked in these two finals. all the idiots saying "stupid 3 game cheese win" completely ignore that its almost impossibly difficult to pull it off down 0-2.
edit: to all the jd fans, this doesn't mean i believe jd is weak mentally, i just mean he failed psychologically under pressure this time because he really did have a good chance in game 3 even after the first failed attack. he came back from 1-0 down many times, he just didn't have it this time.
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On May 29 2010 20:13 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:48 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 18:47 Skvid wrote:
Partially outplayed, partially bad decision making by JD. I guess the pressure of the finals did its toll on him.
Anyways GG's Any win by any player will partially rely on mistakes by his opponent. Yeah I'm getting pretty tired that people just keep on saying "player X didnt really win, player Y just lost" and "player x only won because player Y played terrible" Just like effort only beat Kal because Kal failed and because ZvP is imba, not because effort played well. Even in this series where JD had some very questionable decisionmaking in game 3 I'm, as a JD fan, not afraid to say that flash simply outplayed JD and fully deserved the win.
Yeah the discussion got sidetracked a lot about how JD's hydra bust was done badly. But I was quite surprised how fast Flash got seige mode research out, it seemed like he started it far before seeing the mass hydras.
Or maybe the exciting situation distorted my interpretation of time, did anyone catch when he started the research?
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On May 29 2010 20:16 Hot_Bid wrote:
i feel this psychological aspect, which is huge in SC (think about all the practice bonjwas who fail on TV), got sorely overlooked in these two finals. all the idiots saying "stupid 3 game cheese win" completely ignore that its almost impossibly difficult to pull it off down 0-2.
People tend to over look a lot of the aspects of the game. You frequently see people in live report threads complaining about how so and so is playing terribly, they're usually judging 99% on the micro that is happening on the screen. "omg flash lost a vessel to scourge, he's playing horribly"
It's also quite ridiculous how judgemental people are of player's builds even though they have no idea of what kind of build order guessing might be going on. "player x is so dumb for going that build, of course player y will suspect it".
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well he never got mines so it was the first thing he researched.
yeah you're right Hot_Bid.
I mean we all know that Jaedong is usually very strong mentally, just look at the OSL finals vs fantasy but this time I guess Flash's bonwjalike image and the way he lost game 1 and 2 must have gotten to him.
Really does make me appreciate effort's accomplishment even more.
On May 29 2010 20:22 Nytefish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 20:16 Hot_Bid wrote:
i feel this psychological aspect, which is huge in SC (think about all the practice bonjwas who fail on TV), got sorely overlooked in these two finals. all the idiots saying "stupid 3 game cheese win" completely ignore that its almost impossibly difficult to pull it off down 0-2.
People tend to over look a lot of the aspects of the game. You frequently see people in live report threads complaining about how so and so is playing terribly, they're usually judging 99% on the micro that is happening on the screen. "omg flash lost a vessel to scourge, he's playing horribly" It's also quite ridiculous how judgemental people are of player's builds even though they have no idea of what kind of build order guessing might be going on. "player x is so dumb for going that build, of course player y will suspect it".
Amen to that
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On May 29 2010 20:13 Hot_Bid wrote:- He faced the best PvZ atm (Kal) and 3-0s him
Link
Waa?
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On May 29 2010 20:13 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 20:01 Letmelose wrote:On May 29 2010 19:32 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 19:28 Letmelose wrote:On May 29 2010 19:13 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 19:10 Letmelose wrote:On May 29 2010 19:06 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 19:04 Letmelose wrote:On May 29 2010 18:52 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 18:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
jaedong's builds were TERRIBLE i was giggling pretty hard in set 3
effort best zerg now i guess? lolol I did not even dream of saying this with a straight face just four weeks ago, but this month, Effort's the best Zerg on the planet. We saw how horribly Effort failed once he was gunned by everyone. Jaedong has been dealing with it ever since he replaced Savior as the best gamer on the planet. Jaedong used to be so ahead of the pack in terms of micromanagement and multitasking skills, that these skills alone won him a lot of games, but these days that's sadly no longer the case. We'll see how Effort deals with every other gamer around throwing every trick up their sleave in the book in order to bring him down now that he is in the spotlight again. If he survives that, then we can talk. Note how I said "this month." You really going to argue with that? Who was better this month? Effort's only two losses came in the OSL Finals. I thought you held Effort in higher regard than simply settling for him being the "flavour of the month". Even I expect more things from the kid, and I say that as someone who is more into Zero. What did you want me to say? That this proves that Effort is somehow better than Jaedong for the past two years? That's just stupid. Of course JD is the most accomplished and best Zerg in the history of StarCraft. I just think its hilarious that people were discounting Effort's win as a "fluke" when we're clearly dealing with players (Flash, JD, Effort, etc) who are capable of beating each other in Bo5s. Right now though, Effort's better than JD, at least in ZvT. It's been a long time since we've been able to say a Z is better than JD at any of the three MUs. It's been for quite some time now that the likes of Effort and Zero can literally play comparetively to Jaedong's absolute peak skill level. I was mistaken for thinking that you were basically predicting the ascension of Effort as the next big thing in Starcraft; something that I believe he is perfectly capable of being. The thing is. It is easy (relatively speaking of course) to look great when things are going great for you, and everything is working out. Effort has both the mechanics and trickery to defeat Flash, and has shown that this month (something Jaedong totally failed in). However, what I feel like you are doing is "cashing-in" on Effort the moment he looked like the superior zerg in comparison with Jaedong. Surely a fan such as yourself could have the faith in Effort to survive the oncoming onslaught, struggle through come rain or shine, and STILL look like the greatest zerg around, rather than taking a somewhat cheap shot at the greatest zerg around in the scene when he has just taken a low blow. Since when is stating the obvious a "cheap shot." I think its funny you view my blog as taking a shot at JD when its actually validating Effort's win. It has nothing to do with insulting JD. Have you read my article on JD? I'm not a blind fanboy. I know Effort is not the second coming of JD. There probably will never be one, just like there was never a second Boxer. But what I do know is the best player from my favorite team rose from a horrible slump after the worst betrayal of CJ and its fans ever, and won the OSL. There was mass whining about how he didn't deserve it, and he played "cheesy" or it was a fluke, or Flash just handed it to him. And to watch Flash one week later kick the crap out of JD after Effort helped him practice... well that's pretty cool. It feels like a cheap shot, because you know and I know the actual skill level (be it micromanagement, multitasking skills or in-game intuition) between the top level players is paper-thin. That's why we see so much risks being taken, because the players need it in order to win. The days of Jaedong taking everything Bisu could throw at him, and still coming up on top, or deconstructing Flash with his superhuman Hive play on Loki 2 are long gone, BUT, Jaedong has shown incredible longetivity as the top dog around, the likes of which is somewhat remeniscent to Nada. Effort outsmarted Flash, but we know that it took a little bit of luck on his side. We all know Flash had luck in his side, because there were some glaring holes in his play in order to come out ahead that he would have never made against a lesser opponent. In the end, results are results, but it irks me when Effort fans try to crown their prince the moment Jaedong falls to Flash. I don't deny it, but I feel like it sells both Jaedong and Effort short. Jaedong has been pretty much there regardless of the map balance, the opponent, his personal biorhythm and the ever fickle-lady luck. Picking THIS moment, like you expect Effort to fall short in comparison with Jaedong (not neccessarily just his past accolades) later on, irks me. It feels wrong to compare to two even the situation is pretty much screaming for it... I don't know... maybe I'm just fucking pissed off. I want to see a zerg that deals with every terran gayness there is in the book, and just stomps them to the ground for being the pussies they are. I'd be more than happy to settle for that zerg being Effort. We both know that he isn't there yet. Jaedong's game style isn't suited for that kind of play, and his astounding mechanical advantage over others is a thing of the past... FUCK... I'm just ranting... just go ahead and celebrate... I personally feel that you are selling Effort somewhat short if you think this will be the highlight of his career. First, I have nothing against JD, I just used the MSL finals as a way to stick it to those Flash fans who tried so hard to belittle what Effort did. I don't think I'm selling Effort short at all. - His mentor and best player on CJ betrayed the entire team and him in a cheating scandal
- He slumped ridiculously badly (like 9 straight losses ZvT right before)
- He had an equipment malfunction and a ridiculous marathon tiebreaker
- He faced the best PvZ atm (Kal) and 3-0s him
- He then faces a player many say is the best ever, who just made consecutive double finals
- He was losing 0-2 and came back 3-2 in the most prestigious tourney finals I don't think many things top that. Five weeks ago I was wondering if Effort would make the Ro16 let alone win the finals in such a manner. I think it's ok to just be happy about this instead of somehow wanting Effort to win more titles immediately.
man, effort must have been downbuzzing hard after all that. he really had it tough for a while, lots of problems coming together at the same time.
whilst im disappointed with jaedong's questionable thinking, im happy that flash got at least one title this season after all the carving he's been doing lately. i think im even happier considering how close he was to winning the osl too, and how bitter it mustve been to lose 3 games in a row
i know that both flash and jd will be back next season. id love to see a 3rd flash v jaedong msl
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