EPTOn December 29 2009 14:09 Kiarip wrote:
they're not even in the same weight category.
Bruce lee was 135 pounds.
they're not even in the same weight category.
Bruce lee was 135 pounds.
Have you SEEN him kick that 200 pound bag?
BJJ wins again - Page 3
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
Have you SEEN him kick that 200 pound bag? | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
But really, in about 3 of the 4 fights I've been in since knowing both, I got sucker punched, knocked down, jumped back up, threw a kick at their head level, and everyone backed the fuck off. I hit one guy with a roundhouse in the face and broke his nose before unloading like 8 kicks on him that ended with an axe kick bouncing his head off of the asphalt. He was still snoring when they put him on the stretcher. Just saying, unless you're up against a trained fighter, a traditional martial art is more than enough. | ||
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malathion
United States362 Posts
On December 29 2009 14:17 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Jujitsu is AWESOME for getting out of things, but in a real fight it's really hard to get someone stupid enough to jump into your guard. Man, I'm no black belt in BJJ but why even open your mouth if you know crap like this is going to come out? | ||
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statix
United States1760 Posts
On December 29 2009 14:17 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I started off in taekwondo when I was young and trained for over 10 years, got my black belt, and diversified into aikido, MMA and BJJ. I still think the most effective weapon in a fight is my kick, based on the fights I've been in. Jujitsu is AWESOME for getting out of things, but in a real fight it's really hard to get someone stupid enough to jump into your guard. Usually they knock you down, wait for you to get up, and rush you with hooks as you get up. Defensively, though, it's invaluable. But really, in about 3 of the 4 fights I've been in since knowing both, I got sucker punched, knocked down, jumped back up, threw a kick at their head level, and everyone backed the fuck off. I hit one guy with a roundhouse in the face and broke his nose before unloading like 8 kicks on him that ended with an axe kick bouncing his head off of the asphalt. He was still snoring when they put him on the stretcher. Just saying, unless you're up against a trained fighter, a traditional martial art is more than enough. Just lol at this. | ||
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Freyr
United States500 Posts
On December 29 2009 14:17 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I started off in taekwondo when I was young and trained for over 10 years, got my black belt, and diversified into aikido, MMA and BJJ. I still think the most effective weapon in a fight is my kick, based on the fights I've been in. Jujitsu is AWESOME for getting out of things, but in a real fight it's really hard to get someone stupid enough to jump into your guard. Usually they knock you down, wait for you to get up, and rush you with hooks as you get up. Defensively, though, it's invaluable. But really, in about 3 of the 4 fights I've been in since knowing both, I got sucker punched, knocked down, jumped back up, threw a kick at their head level, and everyone backed the fuck off. I hit one guy with a roundhouse in the face and broke his nose before unloading like 8 kicks on him that ended with an axe kick bouncing his head off of the asphalt. He was still snoring when they put him on the stretcher. Just saying, unless you're up against a trained fighter, a traditional martial art is more than enough. That's why you learn takedowns and throws! Grappling goes both ways you know. Also: under whom did you study BJJ? Edit: I think we should be cognizant of the limitations of the term "TMA". As an example, Judo and BJJ are older than Taekwondo, and all three are relatively modern. Aikido is also usually thrown in with TMA but it is also newer than Judo. Most schools of "Japanese" Jujutsu with which people would be familiar are probably not Japanese at all, and are in fact amalgamations of Judo, Aikido, and Karate (among others?) yet because people acknowledge Japanese JJ as a traditional art this fact is overlooked. These above example are ignoring active charlatanry and the like. | ||
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AmorVincitOmnia
Kenya3846 Posts
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udgnim
United States8024 Posts
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Equaoh
Canada427 Posts
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On December 29 2009 12:02 Kiarip wrote: Also, I don't know if you caught it, but my original point was largely around the fact that BJJ teaches some stand up, and it teaches techniques against strikers, so BJJ is not actually a pure grappling style, so it's not really fair to have a Kung Fu fighter who was only taught striking to fight a BJJ fighter, because in reality Kung Fu also has grappling techniques, which are obviously aren't as effective, but they are there, and the guy obviously didn't know anything about them, so the only thing that this video proves is that his Wing Chun training sucks, and honestly most Wing Chun schools, and other TMA schools suck just like you said, but it's no reason to bag on TMA's effectiveness in combat. Most of TMA's aren't that less effective than other pure martial arts if the practitioner is actually skilled. Obviously pure martial arts aren't really effective styles in comparison to MMA in the first place, but MMA isn't really a style, by its intended definition it's the most effective way to fight. dude you just proved you don't know anything near enough to be poppin off adive about what will work in a cage. BJJ is grappling only, no strikes whatsoever. Period. Watch a BJJ match and count the strikes (here's a hint, it's always 0) And for the love of god you are saying that one style vs one style striker win. Let's take a quick look at the some of the first guys to win UFC tourney's: Gracie x3, Severen x2, Frye x2, Coleman x 2, Randy, Kerr x2, Miletich, Bolander, Sakuraba, & Hendo. Out of 23 UC tournys (which wer emore or less one style vs one style) grapplers won 15 of them. One was won by Marco Ruas whom can only be described as complete so not counting him strikers won 7 tourny's or roughly 30%. Which means according to those numbers Grapplers won 70% of the time. Can't argue with facts.... Than if you look at champions across all time in the UFC (not tourny's, defenses count as a title won, so do interm) you are looking at 63 UFC title won by grapplers and 32 won by strikers. So 66% of the time in the UFC grapplers hold the belt. the stats don't add up in your favor. sorry i know ur batshit nuts bout WC but in a fight (1v1, one style) Grappling > striking. it's been proven 100's of times 63 | ||
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jeddus
United States832 Posts
And my purple belt is under Renzo Gracie. Fights are fights. I've gotten jacked in the guard, I've ko'd people on the feet, I've been KO'd on the feet, I've submitted people from my back, and I've beaten them senseless on the top. "It is better to know something than to not know something" was some simple wisdom from Royce Gracie. You never know what is going to happen in a fight. True, my base is in brazilian jiu-jitsu. I love it. I love everything about it. But takedowns get stopped, people don't go into your guard, and often you are outsized and out conditioned. In the end, just fight ffs. Train wrestling. Train sambo. Train jiu-jitsu. Train MMA. Train krav maga. Train train train. Eventually you will find your own hybrid. Mine ended up being more of a mix of boxing and wrestling. I've lost to other jiu-jitsu players and I've beaten my fair share. When I lost, it wasn't because their style was better, it is because THEY were better than me. Just had more heart, their technique was solid, and I paid for mistakes. Oh, and Diamondback2, if you go out and get a copy of Renzo and Royler's "Brazilian Jiu-jitsu Theory and Technique" you will find they actually go over a number of strikes in it. Sports jiu-jitsu = "no strikes" Self-defense Jiu-jitsu = strike when it is to your advantage. | ||
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Freyr
United States500 Posts
On December 29 2009 16:19 Diamondback2 wrote: dude you just proved you don't know anything near enough to be poppin off adive about what will work in a cage. BJJ is grappling only, no strikes whatsoever. Period. Watch a BJJ match and count the strikes (here's a hint, it's always 0) And for the love of god you are saying that one style vs one style striker win. Let's take a quick look at the some of the first guys to win UFC tourney's: Gracie x3, Severen x2, Frye x2, Coleman x 2, Randy, Kerr x2, Miletich, Bolander, Sakuraba, & Hendo. Out of 23 UC tournys (which wer emore or less one style vs one style) grapplers won 15 of them. One was won by Marco Ruas whom can only be described as complete so not counting him strikers won 7 tourny's or roughly 30%. Which means according to those numbers Grapplers won 70% of the time. Can't argue with facts.... Than if you look at champions across all time in the UFC (not tourny's, defenses count as a title won, so do interm) you are looking at 63 UFC title won by grapplers and 32 won by strikers. So 66% of the time in the UFC grapplers hold the belt. the stats don't add up in your favor. sorry i know ur batshit nuts bout WC but in a fight (1v1, one style) Grappling > striking. it's been proven 100's of times 63 Are you sure? I've heard of BJJ schools having 'self defense' curricula, which sounds like it may involve some degree of striking. Obviously this isn't the meat and potatoes of BJJ, but there's no well defined universal BJJ curriculum either. Your reference to BJJ matches is kind of meaningless. There is no striking in Judo competition either, but strikes are, I assure, you, technically part of the art (incidentally so are leg locks, neck cranks and other techniques that are illegal in competition). Kiarip - I really think you are underestimating how hard it is to stop a good grappler from taking you down without appreciable grappling experience. Your argument about grapplers being used to outdoing other grapplers in the clinch goes both ways - a boxer is used to hitting people who are trying to box with him. It is possible that a boxer could knock someone out before he got a hold of him but we can see how resilient people are - that would not be easy to do consistently. If a good grappler takes an uninitiated grappler to the ground the latter man is not likely to be getting up. Once on the ground the boxer's skillset is essentially useless, and he will be abused by the grappler. If the striker is just running away the grappler must obviously just be a better runner in order to catch him, but if the striker is trying to fight, every strike is an opportunity for the grappler to move in. I agree that following someone to the ground in a self defense situation is probably not a good idea due to the potential for other attackers (a situation like this actually happened recently to an acquaintance), but I don't know that anyone is saying it is. Grappling would most likely actually help you avoid being dragged to the ground in a self defense situation. | ||
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statix
United States1760 Posts
On December 29 2009 16:42 jeddus wrote: Oddly enough, I don't "lol" at Zerg_Russian or find him completely offbase. And my purple belt is under Renzo Gracie. Fights are fights. I've gotten jacked in the guard, I've ko'd people on the feet, I've been KO'd on the feet, I've submitted people from my back, and I've beaten them senseless on the top. "It is better to know something than to not know something" was some simple wisdom from Royce Gracie. You never know what is going to happen in a fight. True, my base is in brazilian jiu-jitsu. I love it. I love everything about it. But takedowns get stopped, people don't go into your guard, and often you are outsized and out conditioned. You're saying a lot of things that are really strange. -You're a purple belt in bjj.(which only sounds strange given the following) -You don't find anything about Zerg_Russian's post off base at all even though he says Jiu Jitsu has no use defensively. -You claim that you've submitted people from your guard as if it's some sort of miraculous feat. Hell...being a purple under Renzo I'd sure hope you'd accomplished this by now. Freaking white's at the local BJJ shop submit people from their guard. -You say sometimes "people don't go into your guard" as if that is the only position a person would ever be in danger when facing a bjj practitioner. Did you go to Renzo's academy or an affiliate? Who gave you your purple? How long did it take to get your blue/purple? Just curious is all  | ||
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statix
United States1760 Posts
On December 29 2009 16:59 Freyr wrote: Are you sure? I've heard of BJJ schools having 'self defense' curricula, which sounds like it may involve some degree of striking. Obviously this isn't the meat and potatoes of BJJ, but there's no well defined universal BJJ curriculum either. I've hopped around among a few different BJJ schools and submissions wrestling places which all teach completely different. Most BJJ schools teach pure submission/position and only with a gi They also teach things liek open hand slaps to the ears and heel strikes to the legs/abdomen. These places often teach basic things like a jab-->push kick---> double leg which was all you really needed like 15 years ago. Stuff doesnt really work now. | ||
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Freyr
United States500 Posts
On December 29 2009 17:08 statix wrote: You're saying a lot of things that are really strange. -You're a purple belt in bjj.(which only sounds strange given the following) -You don't find anything about Zerg_Russian's post off base at all even though he says Jiu Jitsu has no use defensively. -You claim that you've submitted people from your guard as if it's some sort of miraculous feat. Hell...being a purple under Renzo I'd sure hope you'd accomplished this by now. Freaking white's at the local BJJ shop submit people from their guard. -You say sometimes "people don't go into your guard" as if that is the only position a person would ever be in danger when facing a bjj practitioner. Did you go to Renzo's academy or an affiliate? Who gave you your purple? How long did it take to get your blue/purple? Just curious is all I gathered he meant submitting someone in a "real fight" rather than in BJJ class. The guard comment is pretty odd though. I am not a very good or experienced grappler, but I don't imagine I would ever think to deliberately go inside someone's guard (unless we were starting in guard). It is more like, I get trapped in someone's guard after trying to get around it, or I have a strong position and they get their guard back. | ||
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statix
United States1760 Posts
On December 29 2009 17:23 Freyr wrote: I gathered he meant submitting someone in a "real fight" rather than in BJJ class. The guard comment is pretty odd though. I am not a very good or experienced grappler, but I don't imagine I would ever think to deliberately go inside someone's guard (unless we were starting in guard). It is more like, I get trapped in someone's guard after trying to get around it, or I have a strong position and they get their guard back. Guard is probably the least desirable position to be in for me (other than being mounted) When you're in a good position and your opponent manages to get you back into his guard it's like " ahhh now i have to work alllll over again to get that position back + it's easier for him to sweep/submit me now." frustrating for sure. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17813 Posts
(movie starts about 25 sec into it) | ||
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jfazz
Australia672 Posts
I think when we discuss moderately skilled fighters (so not black belts, but not whites either), without cross-training, grappling does come out on top. Most strikers just do not know how to shut down a grappler, and only train against other strikers. At the same time, though grapplers afr often training against other grapplers, that is not fundamentally a bad thing, as the physics of takedowns, passing guard and submission attempts are the same. Basically, you dont need to train specifically against strikers, as grappling will work against them, while a striker MUST cross train, or he will have very little chance against a grappler. However, once we look at elite level fighters, the discussion becomes irrelevant. Look at Mirko Fillopovic, his takedown defence was insane, he even submitted Kevin Randleman, yet Cro Cop was the most feared striker of his era. He took his kickboxing and added elements to help round it out (most sprawl defence, some groundwork). I think strikers need a REALLY good mental game to fight against grapplers. As stated by a previous poster, a grapplers strategy can often be as simple as takedown, mount, submit. And its true. Strikers dont have it so easy, as saying "ill just punch him out" doesnt make a lot of sense. Different striking styles have to be taken into consideration, as well as stance, whether they are neuteral or leading with a foot, where their hands are, how they move their torsos etc etc etc. Even randoms can be a little tricky to fight, while I imagine they are deadfish to a grappler. Having said all of that, I weigh only 68kg, and I can KO someone with chainpunch. So striking martial arts do teach you something, but as others have said, you need a good teacher, as the McDojo problem is all to real. I have trained for two years under a Master, who trained under Wong Shun Leung, who was Yip Man's top student, and I have only recently made it to the second form in modified WSLWC. And I train 2 nights a week for three hours in pure WC, 1 afternoon a week crosstraining with a Gracie BJJ school. Our second form is perhaps the equivalent of a red belt, with third form being a blackbelt. First form sort of runs the ambit of everything else, people are often in it for a long time. However, there is another WC school nearby, and I know students there are into third form, training once a week for a year. Which is ridicuous. But that is the problem with striking martial arts in general, its very easy for teachers to feed their student "martial magic" rather than the real stuff, just to make money. I know TKD and karate have had similar problems. Some people just suck. I think with grappling, its much harder to fake, because you can train safely adnd put it into practice. If I wasn't doing full contact training, I would just have to take it for granted that what I am learning works, but thankfully I know that it does. Yet most striking martial arts have no contact training whatsoever, and resultantly the fighters they breed cannot take or give a punch, arent used to getting tired and dont know how to think in combat. So they are awful. If I could start completely over, I would still do WSLWC. Having used it repeatedly, I know it does what it is meant to - give you tools to fight. As my Sifu says, "you should master the system, not let the system master you". He encourages us to bring in elements form other martial arts to better round out our styles. I dont think anyone style cannot benefit from crosstraining. The greatest BJJ fighters of all time, the Nogueira brothers, are both amazing strikers (they train with the cuban national boxing team ffs!). Lets all chill, and watch some UFC highlight videos. You are welcome! | ||
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Onisparda
Canada516 Posts
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jfazz
Australia672 Posts
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WheelOfTime
Canada331 Posts
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