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On December 29 2009 11:34 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2009 11:32 Diamondback2 wrote:
Well first and foremost BJJ is based on a 1 v 1 scenario. Multiple attacks would benefit Krav Maga more than any one art. Krav Maga is an art for multiple attackers on the street.
And how did they set up UFC 1 for gracie to win, his first match was vs a pro boxer. Didn't work out so hot for Jimmerson ( the boxer).
Yes a striker can KO a guy but in reality most fights do not end in one punch or kick. And all a BJJ only guy needs to do is take that shot coming in and he is in the clinch.
And if your school teaches grappling that is not standard Kung Fu, it's modified. So that dosen't count.
Hell Muhammad Ali had one pro MMA fight and got his legs kicked so bad that he was never right again. He couldn't just end it in one shot. Actually most fights that don't involve gloves but do involve great strikers usually end really fast. And I'm not talking about KO. If you bring in an absolutely amazing grappler, who didn't study any striking, to fight Mike Tyson in his prime who knows that his opponent is a grappler, but also has no cross training... More often than not the grappler won't make it out alive.
A grappler of the same skill level of Mike Tyson would probably win imo. I'm a huge fan of striking, and I wouldn't have said that too long ago. Hell, the grappler could probably get away with just lying on his back staring at Tyson.
You also seem to be placing a lot of emphasis on bare knuckle striking. There isn't THAT huge of a difference between knuckles and MMA gloves.
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On December 29 2009 11:41 NatsuTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2009 11:32 Kiarip wrote:On December 29 2009 11:25 NatsuTerran wrote:
They didn't get their heads kicked in by the gang's buddies.
Edit: Was quoting Jfazz Why not? O_o I have no idea. lol. Wish I could find that video again. I think the cops showed up around the time the gun disarm happened iirc. I've also heard from bouncers who have used BJJ that sometimes they get kicked in the head and sometimes they don't. It's a mixed bag and I guess it all depends on the crowd. If the crew has buddies though, I don't think striking is goiong to hep anymore than grappling. They are still gonna come up behind you and slam a chair on your back.
Well striking keeps you more ready to use the actual best self-defense technique: sprinting.
Back when I was in high school I fought a lot in my neighborhood, and if there was more than one person, even if I had friends with me I'd be completely terrified to stay on the ground for too long even on top, because I was scared shitless of getting stabbed =/.
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Thats a pretty bad example then. It makes sense to kick the crap out of someone when they go down ground  Striking helps MUCH more than grappling in group fights. Sadly, I have been there. Guys who have to focus on 1v1 as opposed to been able to quickly switch opponents as context dictates are at a huge disafvantage, given the constant flux of position in such a confrontation. Just think about it...grappling is based on taking your opponents mobility away, so that you ahve control of the fight. Thats really smart. But you dont take away the opponents mobility in a group fight, just one of the guys. And thus you make yourself a target. Stikers dont do that.
In training fights, I have had more trouble with karate guys than BJJ, but probably that is because, as I said, I regularly cross-train with BJJ guys, so I have some idea what is going on. As a WSLWC fighter, we only really use punches (sometimes ascending heel kicks, but otherwise thats it), so closing the distance against a good kicker can be difficult. Ive had some pretty severe chest brusing, but as I am sure you know, sometimes you have to take some damage to close the distance, and then its all fun from there  Nonetheless, I suffered a bad injury to my shoulder early this year breaking a kimura...nasty. BJJ guys are extremely difficult in a sporting context, but I would be much more wary of a good boxer/kickboxer in the street.
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On December 29 2009 11:46 NatsuTerran wrote:
A grappler of the same skill level of Mike Tyson would probably win imo. I'm a huge fan of striking, and I wouldn't have said that too long ago. Hell, the grappler could probably get away with just lying on his back staring at Tyson.
You also seem to be placing a lot of emphasis on bare knuckle striking. There isn't THAT huge of a difference between knuckles and MMA gloves.
Actually, this is exactly what Antonio Inoki did to Muhammad Ali, and it almost ended his career.
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Yeah, there isnt much difference at all between MMA gloves and knuckles. I prefer the gloves actually. A lot of WC guys make huge excuses about how that diminishes the power of our chain punching, but that is just excuses. If anything, they are great for the long term, because they protect your hands so much.
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On December 29 2009 11:46 NatsuTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2009 11:34 Kiarip wrote:On December 29 2009 11:32 Diamondback2 wrote:
Well first and foremost BJJ is based on a 1 v 1 scenario. Multiple attacks would benefit Krav Maga more than any one art. Krav Maga is an art for multiple attackers on the street.
And how did they set up UFC 1 for gracie to win, his first match was vs a pro boxer. Didn't work out so hot for Jimmerson ( the boxer).
Yes a striker can KO a guy but in reality most fights do not end in one punch or kick. And all a BJJ only guy needs to do is take that shot coming in and he is in the clinch.
And if your school teaches grappling that is not standard Kung Fu, it's modified. So that dosen't count.
Hell Muhammad Ali had one pro MMA fight and got his legs kicked so bad that he was never right again. He couldn't just end it in one shot. Actually most fights that don't involve gloves but do involve great strikers usually end really fast. And I'm not talking about KO. If you bring in an absolutely amazing grappler, who didn't study any striking, to fight Mike Tyson in his prime who knows that his opponent is a grappler, but also has no cross training... More often than not the grappler won't make it out alive. A grappler of the same skill level of Mike Tyson would probably win imo. I'm a huge fan of striking, and I wouldn't have said that too long ago. Hell, the grappler could probably get away with just lying on his back staring at Tyson. You also seem to be placing a lot of emphasis on bare knuckle striking. There isn't THAT huge of a difference between knuckles and MMA gloves.
Tyson knocked people out with BOXING gloves. He would break peoples skulls (along with his knuckles) if he hit that hard with no gloves.
I don't think the grappler would win to be honest. I'm not talking about BJJ even because that has some stand up. I'm talking about pure grappler with no stand up training other than instinctual stuff. He would have been training against other grapplers so he's training how to throw/avoid throw in the clinch or how to get an advantageous hold in the clinch right away, but not against someone who can beat him without entering clinch, while Tyson as a pure striker really only needs to hit him, and incidently that's what you train for against other strikers, so if he knows that the guy is a grappler, he would obviously realize that the guy's natural tendency is to get up close, so as long as he watches his feet, he's gonna catch the guy.
Obviously the grappler can like on his back, and it'd be a draw. more than likely.
Also, I don't know if you caught it, but my original point was largely around the fact that BJJ teaches some stand up, and it teaches techniques against strikers, so BJJ is not actually a pure grappling style, so it's not really fair to have a Kung Fu fighter who was only taught striking to fight a BJJ fighter, because in reality Kung Fu also has grappling techniques, which are obviously aren't as effective, but they are there, and the guy obviously didn't know anything about them, so the only thing that this video proves is that his Wing Chun training sucks, and honestly most Wing Chun schools, and other TMA schools suck just like you said, but it's no reason to bag on TMA's effectiveness in combat. Most of TMA's aren't that less effective than other pure martial arts if the practitioner is actually skilled. Obviously pure martial arts aren't really effective styles in comparison to MMA in the first place, but MMA isn't really a style, by its intended definition it's the most effective way to fight.
MMA to fighting is what Parkour is to transportation.
Actually, this is exactly what Antonio Inoki did to Muhammad Ali, and it almost ended his career.
Legs kicks combined with good wrestling skills beat pure boxers. Alert all the presses.
Not but really, this has very little to do with the discussion at hand.
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On December 29 2009 11:32 Diamondback2 wrote:
Hell Muhammad Ali had one pro MMA fight and got his legs kicked so bad that he was never right again. He couldn't just end it in one shot.
Thats a lie, japanese wrestler spent whole match on the ground and every time he got up he got punched and stayed on his back kicking alis legs every time he approached. Retarded rules back then, this shit went on for 15 rounds and they ended up tied 3-3. Ali was pissed but he was never dominated once during the fight. He wouldve won the same fight today with current MMA rules.
And the OP is amusing, how dare you judge whole art based off seeing one horrible amateur.
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You're right in that if Tyson gets a clean hook to the jaw the fight would be over. But when you have such a phenomenal striker I figured he would be matched by a phenomenal grappler. I was thinking of someone like Genki Sudo, who could just monkey jump on Tyson and drag it to the ground somehow lol. Also, my BJJ school teaches absolutely no standup. The only thing I have ever learned that involved us standing up is the double leg takedown and a basic judo throw.
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Those videos were so depressing to watch. I mean is that all that Kung Fu guy had? Why are his kicks so strange(I trained in TDK)? I mean was he trying to leg sweep the guy? IF that was the case, why the fuck would u want to leg sweep the guy and drop down to him just to gouge his eyes since he's trained in BJJ; that's just asking for a tap out.
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On December 29 2009 12:08 sassme wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2009 11:32 Diamondback2 wrote:
Hell Muhammad Ali had one pro MMA fight and got his legs kicked so bad that he was never right again. He couldn't just end it in one shot. Thats a lie, japanese wrestler spent whole match on the ground and every time he got up he got punched and stayed on his back kicking alis legs every time he approached. Retarded rules back then, this shit went on for 15 rounds and they ended up tied 3-3. Ali was pissed but he was never dominated once during the fight. He wouldve won the same fight today with current MMA rules. And the OP is amusing, how dare you judge whole art based off seeing one horrible amateur.
ahahahaha
HOW DARE YOU!!
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The last fight looked fake from both people. Both people were throwing very weak kicks. And yes, I realize he went out - held it a bit too long I guess.
Also, gouging and biting does invalidate a lot of BJJ. If your opponent can chew through your throat or bite off your finger or put a finger through your eye-socket, you can no longer:
1) Allow his hands near your face. This happens all the time in the guard or any BJJ position, though.
2) Allow your hands near his mouth. I guess this can be avoided without too much trouble.
3) Allow his mouth near your face. This comes up a bunch in BJJ positions.
BJJ is obviously very useful, but it's not a real combat system. If you are fighting to the death against someone, a ton of BJJ situations will get your nose bitten off or your eye's gouged out. If you are fighting in a rule-laden MMA environment, though, it's fantastic, as that is what is designed to do well in.
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I'm not gonna argue with you, but if you want it, the guys at bullshido have been through the deadly eye gouge dead horse so much that they automatically call people trolls if they bring it up.
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If you're fighting to the death, why not just run and get a weapon first?
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On December 29 2009 12:35 NatsuTerran wrote:
I'm not gonna argue with you, but if you want it, the guys at bullshido have been through the deadly eye gouge dead horse so much that they automatically call people trolls if they bring it up.
What about surgically replaced nails of steel?
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On December 29 2009 12:38 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2009 12:35 NatsuTerran wrote:
I'm not gonna argue with you, but if you want it, the guys at bullshido have been through the deadly eye gouge dead horse so much that they automatically call people trolls if they bring it up. What about surgically replaced nails of steel?
Or a wicked knife that pops out of your boot like in Wild Wild West.
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Seems to me that you don't know jack shit about what you're actually saying. You're big leaguing.
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Bruce Lee vs Gracie (when they were both in their prime)- now that would be a fight. My money would be on Bruce Lee.
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On December 29 2009 13:52 tomatriedes wrote:
Bruce Lee vs Gracie (when they were both in their prime)- now that would be a fight. My money would be on Bruce Lee.
Rickson by armbar
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they're not even in the same weight category.
Bruce lee was 135 pounds.
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It's frustrating watching those videos. I'm not even sure how to respond.
We have "TMA" guys come into the gym (I've been involved with mma for a little over two years now...primarily Muay Thai and BJJ) all the time claiming that they've trained in (insert whatever TMA you want) and that it has the most practical street applications and blah blah blah. We just kind of laugh in our heads while nodding/smiling at the guy.
After 5 minutes of actually stepping out of their karate kid box to roll/wrestle/spar/(whatever really) they realize how their style of doing things certainly has a few errors which can be exploited relatively easily.
I would never agree to fight one of these guys. It's just seems like such a classless thing to do since you know 99.9% of the time the fight will end once it hits the mat. It's like an adult fighting a little kid at that point.
That BJJ guy was what...a blue belt? He had coaches there helping him and flopped to his butt every chance he got; all vs a guy with 0 ground experience and elementary stand up skills. What the fuck?
What if he had sunk in the arm bar? God knows the kid wouldn't have tapped and had his arm broken. Uggh.
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EPT
