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I just got done finding and lurking this epic thread on Bullshido.net, the real men's martial arts website.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=63694
It starts off years ago with a friendly challenge match against a WC kung fu guy, shown here:
+ Show Spoiler +
A typical BJJ asswhooping following the basic flowchart of double leg >> Mount >> Profit
And here:
+ Show Spoiler +
Here the WC gets ballsy with a kick and then taken down. The elbows to the head, even if full force would more likely NOT be fight ending. Traditional martial artists tend to think of the human body as made of glass, even going far enough to sometimes doubt the effects of adrenaline.
Long story short. The thread gets bumped by some Kung Fu guy wishing for the OP to take the videos down because they mar Kung Fu's reputation. OP disagrees. Kung Fu Alex starts talking shit about how real fighting isn't "a bunch of wrestling" and that all he needs to do in that situation is eye gouge or bite. The two set up a challenge match in which our man BJJ Mark gives Alex a late Christmas gift.
+ Show Spoiler +
And absolute hilarity ensues. This guy, who was talking a big game about studying Kung Fu for years (and he probably has), has some of the worst kicks I have seen. I mean, it really says something when a grappler has better kicks than you form-wise. Regardless, the dude does okay until he knocks BJJ down and runs into his guard (LOL). Anyways, the mock hands on face eye gouge wouldn't have done shit as Mark already had first an armbar, and then a triangle situated. Chalk another one up for real combat sports. Also, Major props to Mark, uneasywerewolf, and especially Kung Fu Alex for your time and willingness to improve and fight for what you believe in.
 
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Eh its ok.... what's this about combat arts vs traditional arts though?
Both Judo and Jujitsu are "traditional," I guess you can argue brazilian jujitsu isn't, but both Judo and Jujitsu do fine against BJJ.
Plus, I thought it was common sense that any grappling > striking at pretty much all lower skills levels of fighting :S
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On December 29 2009 10:42 Kiarip wrote:
Eh its ok.... what's this about combat arts vs traditional arts though?
Both Judo and Jujitsu are "traditional," I guess you can argue brazilian jujitsu isn't, but both Judo and Jujitsu do fine against BJJ.
Plus, I thought it was common sense that any grappling > striking at pretty much all lower skills levels of fighting :S
Judo can very much be a combat art. There is rly 2 different types of Judo, sport Judo, and combat Judo.
And it's been proven many times in the early UFC's that when it comes to single style vs style, BJJ > Wrestling > Thai Boxing > Boxing > everything else.
You would also b suprised how many people still think shit like Wu-shu, Tai Kwon-Do, etc will rule a fight. I have met TKD guys whom thought they could not be beat by a sissy BJJ guy, until I pulled guard and made them tap in a cpl seconds. It's a real wake up call for them....
And those vids were pretty cool, it's always fun to see a good BJJ guy against someone with no grappling experience.....
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On December 29 2009 10:52 Diamondback2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2009 10:42 Kiarip wrote:
Eh its ok.... what's this about combat arts vs traditional arts though?
Both Judo and Jujitsu are "traditional," I guess you can argue brazilian jujitsu isn't, but both Judo and Jujitsu do fine against BJJ.
Plus, I thought it was common sense that any grappling > striking at pretty much all lower skills levels of fighting :S Judo can very much be a combat art. There is rly 2 different types of Judo, sport Judo, and combat Judo. And it's been proven many times in the early UFC's that when it comes to single style vs style, BJJ > Wrestling > Thai Boxing > Boxing > everything else. You would also b suprised how many people still think shit like Wu-shu, Tai Kwon-Do, etc will rule a fight. I have met TKD guys whom thought they could not be beat by a sissy BJJ guy, until I pulled guard and made them tap in a cpl seconds. It's a real wake up call for them.... And those vids were pretty cool, it's always fun to see a good BJJ guy against someone with no grappling experience.....
Well I disagree honestly. The majority of early UFC's were set up in such a way so that Gracie would win, and the competition level was pretty low.
If you're talking about an actual fight with no gloves, then a GREAT striker can quite literally kill a grappler/BJJ/w.e practitioner in the first moment there's contact.
As for single style vs style it's a pretty dumb thing to even talk about nowadays, such a thing doesn't exist nowadays.
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Do you really think 'Alex' is a real representation of kung fu? That must be a joke, even a casual martial artist like me can throw far better kicks than that guy was doing.
Not to say that BJJ isn't effective -- obviously it is, judging by its success in UFC. It just isn't good to have this shitty fighter representing a style with such an old tradition 
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I was mainly pointing out how McDojo-ized many TMA's now are. The two fighters have both trained for 3-ish years. Also sending a message to those TMA people who think their black belt in strip mall tae kwon do can help them avoid teh deadly grapple by clawing like a bitch. Don't get me wrong, I trained in TKD and Kuk sool for a good part of my teen years, but luckily I eventually realized the errors in many TMA philosophies. Also yes, I realize I am generalizing the word TMA. I know Judo, BJJ, and maybe even MT can be considered TMA, but you guys should all know what I am talking about.
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The WC guy isnt even any good. Proper WSLWC fighters can actually offer some problems for BJJ guys because we at least have proper counter grappling and take down defence. That WC guy has shit, of course he was going to be smashed by a good BJJ practitioner.
The sad thing with WC is that SO many teachers dont know anything, and have never put any of their teachings into real lift practice. What worked for WC guys in the 30s, 40s and 50s, in mainland chinese beimo competitions will not always work today. People just do not fight like they used to.
Good WC masters DO make modifications to the lessons, to incorporate new elements, to help the art progress. What I saw in that video makes me laugh, that guy doesnt know much at all.
Standing up, I would feel confident dismantling any BJJ guy of similar experience. Conversely, ont he ground, though I know limited submission defence (we cross-train with an adjacent Gracie school once/twice a month), I should be child's play for an experienced BJJ artist. One thing to consider though is how impractical BJJ is at street level - you can take down one guy, but then all of his friends kick you There is no honour at street level anymore, and thus BJJ has some ufortunate limitations, as do all grappling and submission martial arts, that are not shared by striking martial arts.
Its a difference of application really. BJJ will always be better than everything else for sports competition, but at the end of the day, for real world combat in the street or the battlefield, or against guys with weapons, striking martial arts are better. So it all comes down to context, the experience of the practitioners in question, and the reason for fighting.
Martial artists shouldnt be trying to prove to each other that their art is superior, we should all be trying to help each other develop what makes each martial art so unique and awesome. Thats why MMA is so great, the distinct elements of each martial art can compliment each other to make something even better.
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On December 29 2009 11:11 NatsuTerran wrote:
I was mainly pointing out how McDojo-ized many TMA's now are. The two fighters have both trained for 3-ish years. Also sending a message to those TMA people who think their black belt in strip mall tae kwon do can help them avoid teh deadly grapple by clawing like a bitch. Don't get me wrong, I trained in TKD and Kuk sool for a good part of my teen years, but luckily I eventually realized the errors in many TMA philosophies. Also yes, I realize I am generalizing the word TMA. I know Judo, BJJ, and maybe even MT can be considered TMA, but you guys should all know what I am talking about.
oh yeah, I really agree with you. I studied karate as a kid for about a year, then came back a couple years ago to martial arts with MMA at cung le's gym. It really wasn't until then I realized what a joke that particular karate dojo was. A lot of martial arts studios these days don't really teach actual combat arts, while BJJ is definitely a combat art. McDojo is a good term rofl
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You can become an absolutely amazing fighter by training TKD or any TMA for that matter, you just have to do actual training and put in work, you also have to do actual fighting, or at least semi-full contact sparring.
Anytime a thread or a discussion like this starts up it always makes me laugh how eventually personal anecdotes always inevitably creep in about how someone switched from A to B, and has "seen the light."
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There's a reason why BJJ, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Boxing are the main trained martial arts in MMA. Of course you'd get some outliers (lyoto machida for karate, some Judo/Sambo fighters, etc), but those 4 styles are pretty much considered the 'best' of the arts to learn.
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It really doesn't matter which kung fu guy you get in there. Go to any of their practice sessions and you'll see the OP is completely right when they act like the human body is made of glass, thinking that they can reliably end the fight with some wacky roundhouse kick/backhand fist combination.
There's really no reason to have "style loyalty" and there's no one fighting style that can do everything. At extremely high levels of MMA it's feasible to do pure striking styles since they've drilled their wrestling so much that they can keep the fight standing if they want to. But for your average jackass who wants to learn some self-defense there's no better way to spend your time than taking a BJJ class for 6 to 12 months.
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Why is this interesting again?
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^^^^ completely agree with your last paragraph. Other than that, the guys at bullshido would have a field day with you, or call you a troll. I've actually seen a youtube video once where two BJJ guys were held at gunpoint by some gang. What ended up happening was the double leg >> Mount >> nonstop ground and pound. They didn't get their heads kicked in by the gang's buddies. They didn't erupt into a pool of lava after touching the broken glass and aids needles lying on the street. It went down just like in the above videos. I'm not sayiing BJJ is the be all end all of MA. But it's pretty damn good to know, and it does work in the street with modifications.
Edit: Was quoting Jfazz
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On December 29 2009 11:21 Kiarip wrote:
You can become an absolutely amazing fighter by training TKD or any TMA for that matter, you just have to do actual training and put in work, you also have to do actual fighting, or at least semi-full contact sparring.
Anytime a thread or a discussion like this starts up it always makes me laugh how eventually personal anecdotes always inevitably creep in about how someone switched from A to B, and has "seen the light."
The reason many people see the light when switching to a style popular for mma is that mma sports actually have the actual training, work, and actual fighting.
There is just a difference in the mindset, obviously you can become an absolutely amazing fighting by training ANY style.
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Well first and foremost BJJ is based on a 1 v 1 scenario. Multiple attacks would benefit Krav Maga more than any one art. Krav Maga is an art for multiple attackers on the street.
And how did they set up UFC 1 for gracie to win, his first match was vs a pro boxer. Didn't work out so hot for Jimmerson ( the boxer).
Yes a striker can KO a guy but in reality most fights do not end in one punch or kick. And all a BJJ only guy needs to do is take that shot coming in and he is in the clinch.
And if your school teaches grappling that is not standard Kung Fu, it's modified. So that dosen't count.
Hell Muhammad Ali had one pro MMA fight and got his legs kicked so bad that he was never right again. He couldn't just end it in one shot.
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On December 29 2009 11:25 NatsuTerran wrote:
They didn't get their heads kicked in by the gang's buddies.
Edit: Was quoting Jfazz
Why not? O_o
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On December 29 2009 11:32 Diamondback2 wrote:
Well first and foremost BJJ is based on a 1 v 1 scenario. Multiple attacks would benefit Krav Maga more than any one art. Krav Maga is an art for multiple attackers on the street.
And how did they set up UFC 1 for gracie to win, his first match was vs a pro boxer. Didn't work out so hot for Jimmerson ( the boxer).
Yes a striker can KO a guy but in reality most fights do not end in one punch or kick. And all a BJJ only guy needs to do is take that shot coming in and he is in the clinch.
And if your school teaches grappling that is not standard Kung Fu, it's modified. So that dosen't count.
Hell Muhammad Ali had one pro MMA fight and got his legs kicked so bad that he was never right again. He couldn't just end it in one shot.
Oh... so grapplers are allowed to cross train, and strikers aren't?
the first UFC's had terrible competition. Gracie was put in the brackets so that he would be as far from the Judo and Sumo guys as possible. Obviously there was Shamrock, whom.... Gracie also only had to meet in the finals. Convenient.
Actually most fights that don't involve gloves but do involve great strikers usually end really fast. And I'm not talking about KO. If you bring in an absolutely amazing grappler, who didn't study any striking, to fight Mike Tyson in his prime who knows that his opponent is a grappler, but also has no cross training... More often than not the grappler won't make it out alive.
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On December 29 2009 11:32 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2009 11:25 NatsuTerran wrote:
They didn't get their heads kicked in by the gang's buddies.
Edit: Was quoting Jfazz Why not? O_o
I have no idea. lol. Wish I could find that video again. I think the cops showed up around the time the gun disarm happened iirc. I've also heard from bouncers who have used BJJ that sometimes they get kicked in the head and sometimes they don't. It's a mixed bag and I guess it all depends on the crowd. If the crew has buddies though, I don't think striking is goiong to hep anymore than grappling. They are still gonna come up behind you and slam a chair on your back.
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Striking allows one to at least remain somewhat mobile. The option to turn tail and run for the hills is always there, but if one is rolling around on the ground trying to force an armbar, well...
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EPT
