Here the WC gets ballsy with a kick and then taken down. The elbows to the head, even if full force would more likely NOT be fight ending. Traditional martial artists tend to think of the human body as made of glass, even going far enough to sometimes doubt the effects of adrenaline.
Long story short. The thread gets bumped by some Kung Fu guy wishing for the OP to take the videos down because they mar Kung Fu's reputation. OP disagrees. Kung Fu Alex starts talking shit about how real fighting isn't "a bunch of wrestling" and that all he needs to do in that situation is eye gouge or bite. The two set up a challenge match in which our man BJJ Mark gives Alex a late Christmas gift.
And absolute hilarity ensues. This guy, who was talking a big game about studying Kung Fu for years (and he probably has), has some of the worst kicks I have seen. I mean, it really says something when a grappler has better kicks than you form-wise. Regardless, the dude does okay until he knocks BJJ down and runs into his guard (LOL). Anyways, the mock hands on face eye gouge wouldn't have done shit as Mark already had first an armbar, and then a triangle situated. Chalk another one up for real combat sports. Also, Major props to Mark, uneasywerewolf, and especially Kung Fu Alex for your time and willingness to improve and fight for what you believe in.
On December 29 2009 10:42 Kiarip wrote: Eh its ok.... what's this about combat arts vs traditional arts though?
Both Judo and Jujitsu are "traditional," I guess you can argue brazilian jujitsu isn't, but both Judo and Jujitsu do fine against BJJ.
Plus, I thought it was common sense that any grappling > striking at pretty much all lower skills levels of fighting :S
Judo can very much be a combat art. There is rly 2 different types of Judo, sport Judo, and combat Judo.
And it's been proven many times in the early UFC's that when it comes to single style vs style, BJJ > Wrestling > Thai Boxing > Boxing > everything else.
You would also b suprised how many people still think shit like Wu-shu, Tai Kwon-Do, etc will rule a fight. I have met TKD guys whom thought they could not be beat by a sissy BJJ guy, until I pulled guard and made them tap in a cpl seconds. It's a real wake up call for them....
And those vids were pretty cool, it's always fun to see a good BJJ guy against someone with no grappling experience.....
On December 29 2009 10:42 Kiarip wrote: Eh its ok.... what's this about combat arts vs traditional arts though?
Both Judo and Jujitsu are "traditional," I guess you can argue brazilian jujitsu isn't, but both Judo and Jujitsu do fine against BJJ.
Plus, I thought it was common sense that any grappling > striking at pretty much all lower skills levels of fighting :S
Judo can very much be a combat art. There is rly 2 different types of Judo, sport Judo, and combat Judo.
And it's been proven many times in the early UFC's that when it comes to single style vs style, BJJ > Wrestling > Thai Boxing > Boxing > everything else.
You would also b suprised how many people still think shit like Wu-shu, Tai Kwon-Do, etc will rule a fight. I have met TKD guys whom thought they could not be beat by a sissy BJJ guy, until I pulled guard and made them tap in a cpl seconds. It's a real wake up call for them....
And those vids were pretty cool, it's always fun to see a good BJJ guy against someone with no grappling experience.....
Well I disagree honestly. The majority of early UFC's were set up in such a way so that Gracie would win, and the competition level was pretty low.
If you're talking about an actual fight with no gloves, then a GREAT striker can quite literally kill a grappler/BJJ/w.e practitioner in the first moment there's contact.
As for single style vs style it's a pretty dumb thing to even talk about nowadays, such a thing doesn't exist nowadays.
Do you really think 'Alex' is a real representation of kung fu? That must be a joke, even a casual martial artist like me can throw far better kicks than that guy was doing.
Not to say that BJJ isn't effective -- obviously it is, judging by its success in UFC. It just isn't good to have this shitty fighter representing a style with such an old tradition
I was mainly pointing out how McDojo-ized many TMA's now are. The two fighters have both trained for 3-ish years. Also sending a message to those TMA people who think their black belt in strip mall tae kwon do can help them avoid teh deadly grapple by clawing like a bitch. Don't get me wrong, I trained in TKD and Kuk sool for a good part of my teen years, but luckily I eventually realized the errors in many TMA philosophies. Also yes, I realize I am generalizing the word TMA. I know Judo, BJJ, and maybe even MT can be considered TMA, but you guys should all know what I am talking about.
The WC guy isnt even any good. Proper WSLWC fighters can actually offer some problems for BJJ guys because we at least have proper counter grappling and take down defence. That WC guy has shit, of course he was going to be smashed by a good BJJ practitioner.
The sad thing with WC is that SO many teachers dont know anything, and have never put any of their teachings into real lift practice. What worked for WC guys in the 30s, 40s and 50s, in mainland chinese beimo competitions will not always work today. People just do not fight like they used to.
Good WC masters DO make modifications to the lessons, to incorporate new elements, to help the art progress. What I saw in that video makes me laugh, that guy doesnt know much at all.
Standing up, I would feel confident dismantling any BJJ guy of similar experience. Conversely, ont he ground, though I know limited submission defence (we cross-train with an adjacent Gracie school once/twice a month), I should be child's play for an experienced BJJ artist. One thing to consider though is how impractical BJJ is at street level - you can take down one guy, but then all of his friends kick you There is no honour at street level anymore, and thus BJJ has some ufortunate limitations, as do all grappling and submission martial arts, that are not shared by striking martial arts.
Its a difference of application really. BJJ will always be better than everything else for sports competition, but at the end of the day, for real world combat in the street or the battlefield, or against guys with weapons, striking martial arts are better. So it all comes down to context, the experience of the practitioners in question, and the reason for fighting.
Martial artists shouldnt be trying to prove to each other that their art is superior, we should all be trying to help each other develop what makes each martial art so unique and awesome. Thats why MMA is so great, the distinct elements of each martial art can compliment each other to make something even better.
On December 29 2009 11:11 NatsuTerran wrote: I was mainly pointing out how McDojo-ized many TMA's now are. The two fighters have both trained for 3-ish years. Also sending a message to those TMA people who think their black belt in strip mall tae kwon do can help them avoid teh deadly grapple by clawing like a bitch. Don't get me wrong, I trained in TKD and Kuk sool for a good part of my teen years, but luckily I eventually realized the errors in many TMA philosophies. Also yes, I realize I am generalizing the word TMA. I know Judo, BJJ, and maybe even MT can be considered TMA, but you guys should all know what I am talking about.
oh yeah, I really agree with you. I studied karate as a kid for about a year, then came back a couple years ago to martial arts with MMA at cung le's gym. It really wasn't until then I realized what a joke that particular karate dojo was. A lot of martial arts studios these days don't really teach actual combat arts, while BJJ is definitely a combat art. McDojo is a good term rofl
You can become an absolutely amazing fighter by training TKD or any TMA for that matter, you just have to do actual training and put in work, you also have to do actual fighting, or at least semi-full contact sparring.
Anytime a thread or a discussion like this starts up it always makes me laugh how eventually personal anecdotes always inevitably creep in about how someone switched from A to B, and has "seen the light."
There's a reason why BJJ, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Boxing are the main trained martial arts in MMA. Of course you'd get some outliers (lyoto machida for karate, some Judo/Sambo fighters, etc), but those 4 styles are pretty much considered the 'best' of the arts to learn.
It really doesn't matter which kung fu guy you get in there. Go to any of their practice sessions and you'll see the OP is completely right when they act like the human body is made of glass, thinking that they can reliably end the fight with some wacky roundhouse kick/backhand fist combination.
There's really no reason to have "style loyalty" and there's no one fighting style that can do everything. At extremely high levels of MMA it's feasible to do pure striking styles since they've drilled their wrestling so much that they can keep the fight standing if they want to. But for your average jackass who wants to learn some self-defense there's no better way to spend your time than taking a BJJ class for 6 to 12 months.
^^^^ completely agree with your last paragraph. Other than that, the guys at bullshido would have a field day with you, or call you a troll. I've actually seen a youtube video once where two BJJ guys were held at gunpoint by some gang. What ended up happening was the double leg >> Mount >> nonstop ground and pound. They didn't get their heads kicked in by the gang's buddies. They didn't erupt into a pool of lava after touching the broken glass and aids needles lying on the street. It went down just like in the above videos. I'm not sayiing BJJ is the be all end all of MA. But it's pretty damn good to know, and it does work in the street with modifications.
On December 29 2009 11:21 Kiarip wrote: You can become an absolutely amazing fighter by training TKD or any TMA for that matter, you just have to do actual training and put in work, you also have to do actual fighting, or at least semi-full contact sparring.
Anytime a thread or a discussion like this starts up it always makes me laugh how eventually personal anecdotes always inevitably creep in about how someone switched from A to B, and has "seen the light."
The reason many people see the light when switching to a style popular for mma is that mma sports actually have the actual training, work, and actual fighting.
There is just a difference in the mindset, obviously you can become an absolutely amazing fighting by training ANY style.
Well first and foremost BJJ is based on a 1 v 1 scenario. Multiple attacks would benefit Krav Maga more than any one art. Krav Maga is an art for multiple attackers on the street.
And how did they set up UFC 1 for gracie to win, his first match was vs a pro boxer. Didn't work out so hot for Jimmerson ( the boxer).
Yes a striker can KO a guy but in reality most fights do not end in one punch or kick. And all a BJJ only guy needs to do is take that shot coming in and he is in the clinch.
And if your school teaches grappling that is not standard Kung Fu, it's modified. So that dosen't count.
Hell Muhammad Ali had one pro MMA fight and got his legs kicked so bad that he was never right again. He couldn't just end it in one shot.
On December 29 2009 11:32 Diamondback2 wrote: Well first and foremost BJJ is based on a 1 v 1 scenario. Multiple attacks would benefit Krav Maga more than any one art. Krav Maga is an art for multiple attackers on the street.
And how did they set up UFC 1 for gracie to win, his first match was vs a pro boxer. Didn't work out so hot for Jimmerson ( the boxer).
Yes a striker can KO a guy but in reality most fights do not end in one punch or kick. And all a BJJ only guy needs to do is take that shot coming in and he is in the clinch.
And if your school teaches grappling that is not standard Kung Fu, it's modified. So that dosen't count.
Hell Muhammad Ali had one pro MMA fight and got his legs kicked so bad that he was never right again. He couldn't just end it in one shot.
Oh... so grapplers are allowed to cross train, and strikers aren't?
the first UFC's had terrible competition. Gracie was put in the brackets so that he would be as far from the Judo and Sumo guys as possible. Obviously there was Shamrock, whom.... Gracie also only had to meet in the finals. Convenient.
Actually most fights that don't involve gloves but do involve great strikers usually end really fast. And I'm not talking about KO. If you bring in an absolutely amazing grappler, who didn't study any striking, to fight Mike Tyson in his prime who knows that his opponent is a grappler, but also has no cross training... More often than not the grappler won't make it out alive.
On December 29 2009 11:25 NatsuTerran wrote: They didn't get their heads kicked in by the gang's buddies. Edit: Was quoting Jfazz
Why not? O_o
I have no idea. lol. Wish I could find that video again. I think the cops showed up around the time the gun disarm happened iirc. I've also heard from bouncers who have used BJJ that sometimes they get kicked in the head and sometimes they don't. It's a mixed bag and I guess it all depends on the crowd. If the crew has buddies though, I don't think striking is goiong to hep anymore than grappling. They are still gonna come up behind you and slam a chair on your back.
Striking allows one to at least remain somewhat mobile. The option to turn tail and run for the hills is always there, but if one is rolling around on the ground trying to force an armbar, well...
On December 29 2009 11:32 Diamondback2 wrote: Well first and foremost BJJ is based on a 1 v 1 scenario. Multiple attacks would benefit Krav Maga more than any one art. Krav Maga is an art for multiple attackers on the street.
And how did they set up UFC 1 for gracie to win, his first match was vs a pro boxer. Didn't work out so hot for Jimmerson ( the boxer).
Yes a striker can KO a guy but in reality most fights do not end in one punch or kick. And all a BJJ only guy needs to do is take that shot coming in and he is in the clinch.
And if your school teaches grappling that is not standard Kung Fu, it's modified. So that dosen't count.
Hell Muhammad Ali had one pro MMA fight and got his legs kicked so bad that he was never right again. He couldn't just end it in one shot.
Actually most fights that don't involve gloves but do involve great strikers usually end really fast. And I'm not talking about KO. If you bring in an absolutely amazing grappler, who didn't study any striking, to fight Mike Tyson in his prime who knows that his opponent is a grappler, but also has no cross training... More often than not the grappler won't make it out alive.
A grappler of the same skill level of Mike Tyson would probably win imo. I'm a huge fan of striking, and I wouldn't have said that too long ago. Hell, the grappler could probably get away with just lying on his back staring at Tyson. You also seem to be placing a lot of emphasis on bare knuckle striking. There isn't THAT huge of a difference between knuckles and MMA gloves.
On December 29 2009 11:25 NatsuTerran wrote: They didn't get their heads kicked in by the gang's buddies. Edit: Was quoting Jfazz
Why not? O_o
I have no idea. lol. Wish I could find that video again. I think the cops showed up around the time the gun disarm happened iirc. I've also heard from bouncers who have used BJJ that sometimes they get kicked in the head and sometimes they don't. It's a mixed bag and I guess it all depends on the crowd. If the crew has buddies though, I don't think striking is goiong to hep anymore than grappling. They are still gonna come up behind you and slam a chair on your back.
Well striking keeps you more ready to use the actual best self-defense technique: sprinting.
Back when I was in high school I fought a lot in my neighborhood, and if there was more than one person, even if I had friends with me I'd be completely terrified to stay on the ground for too long even on top, because I was scared shitless of getting stabbed =/.
Thats a pretty bad example then. It makes sense to kick the crap out of someone when they go down ground Striking helps MUCH more than grappling in group fights. Sadly, I have been there. Guys who have to focus on 1v1 as opposed to been able to quickly switch opponents as context dictates are at a huge disafvantage, given the constant flux of position in such a confrontation. Just think about it...grappling is based on taking your opponents mobility away, so that you ahve control of the fight. Thats really smart. But you dont take away the opponents mobility in a group fight, just one of the guys. And thus you make yourself a target. Stikers dont do that.
In training fights, I have had more trouble with karate guys than BJJ, but probably that is because, as I said, I regularly cross-train with BJJ guys, so I have some idea what is going on. As a WSLWC fighter, we only really use punches (sometimes ascending heel kicks, but otherwise thats it), so closing the distance against a good kicker can be difficult. Ive had some pretty severe chest brusing, but as I am sure you know, sometimes you have to take some damage to close the distance, and then its all fun from there Nonetheless, I suffered a bad injury to my shoulder early this year breaking a kimura...nasty. BJJ guys are extremely difficult in a sporting context, but I would be much more wary of a good boxer/kickboxer in the street.
On December 29 2009 11:46 NatsuTerran wrote: A grappler of the same skill level of Mike Tyson would probably win imo. I'm a huge fan of striking, and I wouldn't have said that too long ago. Hell, the grappler could probably get away with just lying on his back staring at Tyson. You also seem to be placing a lot of emphasis on bare knuckle striking. There isn't THAT huge of a difference between knuckles and MMA gloves.
Actually, this is exactly what Antonio Inoki did to Muhammad Ali, and it almost ended his career.
Yeah, there isnt much difference at all between MMA gloves and knuckles. I prefer the gloves actually. A lot of WC guys make huge excuses about how that diminishes the power of our chain punching, but that is just excuses. If anything, they are great for the long term, because they protect your hands so much.
On December 29 2009 11:32 Diamondback2 wrote: Well first and foremost BJJ is based on a 1 v 1 scenario. Multiple attacks would benefit Krav Maga more than any one art. Krav Maga is an art for multiple attackers on the street.
And how did they set up UFC 1 for gracie to win, his first match was vs a pro boxer. Didn't work out so hot for Jimmerson ( the boxer).
Yes a striker can KO a guy but in reality most fights do not end in one punch or kick. And all a BJJ only guy needs to do is take that shot coming in and he is in the clinch.
And if your school teaches grappling that is not standard Kung Fu, it's modified. So that dosen't count.
Hell Muhammad Ali had one pro MMA fight and got his legs kicked so bad that he was never right again. He couldn't just end it in one shot.
Actually most fights that don't involve gloves but do involve great strikers usually end really fast. And I'm not talking about KO. If you bring in an absolutely amazing grappler, who didn't study any striking, to fight Mike Tyson in his prime who knows that his opponent is a grappler, but also has no cross training... More often than not the grappler won't make it out alive.
A grappler of the same skill level of Mike Tyson would probably win imo. I'm a huge fan of striking, and I wouldn't have said that too long ago. Hell, the grappler could probably get away with just lying on his back staring at Tyson. You also seem to be placing a lot of emphasis on bare knuckle striking. There isn't THAT huge of a difference between knuckles and MMA gloves.
Tyson knocked people out with BOXING gloves. He would break peoples skulls (along with his knuckles) if he hit that hard with no gloves.
I don't think the grappler would win to be honest. I'm not talking about BJJ even because that has some stand up. I'm talking about pure grappler with no stand up training other than instinctual stuff. He would have been training against other grapplers so he's training how to throw/avoid throw in the clinch or how to get an advantageous hold in the clinch right away, but not against someone who can beat him without entering clinch, while Tyson as a pure striker really only needs to hit him, and incidently that's what you train for against other strikers, so if he knows that the guy is a grappler, he would obviously realize that the guy's natural tendency is to get up close, so as long as he watches his feet, he's gonna catch the guy.
Obviously the grappler can like on his back, and it'd be a draw. more than likely.
Also, I don't know if you caught it, but my original point was largely around the fact that BJJ teaches some stand up, and it teaches techniques against strikers, so BJJ is not actually a pure grappling style, so it's not really fair to have a Kung Fu fighter who was only taught striking to fight a BJJ fighter, because in reality Kung Fu also has grappling techniques, which are obviously aren't as effective, but they are there, and the guy obviously didn't know anything about them, so the only thing that this video proves is that his Wing Chun training sucks, and honestly most Wing Chun schools, and other TMA schools suck just like you said, but it's no reason to bag on TMA's effectiveness in combat. Most of TMA's aren't that less effective than other pure martial arts if the practitioner is actually skilled. Obviously pure martial arts aren't really effective styles in comparison to MMA in the first place, but MMA isn't really a style, by its intended definition it's the most effective way to fight.
MMA to fighting is what Parkour is to transportation.
Actually, this is exactly what Antonio Inoki did to Muhammad Ali, and it almost ended his career.
Legs kicks combined with good wrestling skills beat pure boxers. Alert all the presses.
Not but really, this has very little to do with the discussion at hand.
On December 29 2009 11:32 Diamondback2 wrote: Hell Muhammad Ali had one pro MMA fight and got his legs kicked so bad that he was never right again. He couldn't just end it in one shot.
Thats a lie, japanese wrestler spent whole match on the ground and every time he got up he got punched and stayed on his back kicking alis legs every time he approached. Retarded rules back then, this shit went on for 15 rounds and they ended up tied 3-3. Ali was pissed but he was never dominated once during the fight. He wouldve won the same fight today with current MMA rules. And the OP is amusing, how dare you judge whole art based off seeing one horrible amateur.
You're right in that if Tyson gets a clean hook to the jaw the fight would be over. But when you have such a phenomenal striker I figured he would be matched by a phenomenal grappler. I was thinking of someone like Genki Sudo, who could just monkey jump on Tyson and drag it to the ground somehow lol. Also, my BJJ school teaches absolutely no standup. The only thing I have ever learned that involved us standing up is the double leg takedown and a basic judo throw.
Those videos were so depressing to watch. I mean is that all that Kung Fu guy had? Why are his kicks so strange(I trained in TDK)? I mean was he trying to leg sweep the guy? IF that was the case, why the fuck would u want to leg sweep the guy and drop down to him just to gouge his eyes since he's trained in BJJ; that's just asking for a tap out.
On December 29 2009 11:32 Diamondback2 wrote: Hell Muhammad Ali had one pro MMA fight and got his legs kicked so bad that he was never right again. He couldn't just end it in one shot.
Thats a lie, japanese wrestler spent whole match on the ground and every time he got up he got punched and stayed on his back kicking alis legs every time he approached. Retarded rules back then, this shit went on for 15 rounds and they ended up tied 3-3. Ali was pissed but he was never dominated once during the fight. He wouldve won the same fight today with current MMA rules. And the OP is amusing, how dare you judge whole art based off seeing one horrible amateur.
The last fight looked fake from both people. Both people were throwing very weak kicks. And yes, I realize he went out - held it a bit too long I guess.
Also, gouging and biting does invalidate a lot of BJJ. If your opponent can chew through your throat or bite off your finger or put a finger through your eye-socket, you can no longer:
1) Allow his hands near your face. This happens all the time in the guard or any BJJ position, though. 2) Allow your hands near his mouth. I guess this can be avoided without too much trouble. 3) Allow his mouth near your face. This comes up a bunch in BJJ positions.
BJJ is obviously very useful, but it's not a real combat system. If you are fighting to the death against someone, a ton of BJJ situations will get your nose bitten off or your eye's gouged out. If you are fighting in a rule-laden MMA environment, though, it's fantastic, as that is what is designed to do well in.
I'm not gonna argue with you, but if you want it, the guys at bullshido have been through the deadly eye gouge dead horse so much that they automatically call people trolls if they bring it up.
On December 29 2009 12:35 NatsuTerran wrote: I'm not gonna argue with you, but if you want it, the guys at bullshido have been through the deadly eye gouge dead horse so much that they automatically call people trolls if they bring it up.
On December 29 2009 12:35 NatsuTerran wrote: I'm not gonna argue with you, but if you want it, the guys at bullshido have been through the deadly eye gouge dead horse so much that they automatically call people trolls if they bring it up.
What about surgically replaced nails of steel?
Or a wicked knife that pops out of your boot like in Wild Wild West.
On December 29 2009 13:52 tomatriedes wrote: Bruce Lee vs Gracie (when they were both in their prime)- now that would be a fight. My money would be on Bruce Lee.
It's frustrating watching those videos. I'm not even sure how to respond.
We have "TMA" guys come into the gym (I've been involved with mma for a little over two years now...primarily Muay Thai and BJJ) all the time claiming that they've trained in (insert whatever TMA you want) and that it has the most practical street applications and blah blah blah. We just kind of laugh in our heads while nodding/smiling at the guy.
After 5 minutes of actually stepping out of their karate kid box to roll/wrestle/spar/(whatever really) they realize how their style of doing things certainly has a few errors which can be exploited relatively easily.
I would never agree to fight one of these guys. It's just seems like such a classless thing to do since you know 99.9% of the time the fight will end once it hits the mat. It's like an adult fighting a little kid at that point.
That BJJ guy was what...a blue belt? He had coaches there helping him and flopped to his butt every chance he got; all vs a guy with 0 ground experience and elementary stand up skills. What the fuck?
What if he had sunk in the arm bar? God knows the kid wouldn't have tapped and had his arm broken. Uggh.
I started off in taekwondo when I was young and trained for over 10 years, got my black belt, and diversified into aikido, MMA and BJJ. I still think the most effective weapon in a fight is my kick, based on the fights I've been in. Jujitsu is AWESOME for getting out of things, but in a real fight it's really hard to get someone stupid enough to jump into your guard. Usually they knock you down, wait for you to get up, and rush you with hooks as you get up. Defensively, though, it's invaluable.
But really, in about 3 of the 4 fights I've been in since knowing both, I got sucker punched, knocked down, jumped back up, threw a kick at their head level, and everyone backed the fuck off. I hit one guy with a roundhouse in the face and broke his nose before unloading like 8 kicks on him that ended with an axe kick bouncing his head off of the asphalt. He was still snoring when they put him on the stretcher.
Just saying, unless you're up against a trained fighter, a traditional martial art is more than enough.
On December 29 2009 14:17 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Jujitsu is AWESOME for getting out of things, but in a real fight it's really hard to get someone stupid enough to jump into your guard.
Man, I'm no black belt in BJJ but why even open your mouth if you know crap like this is going to come out?
On December 29 2009 14:17 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I started off in taekwondo when I was young and trained for over 10 years, got my black belt, and diversified into aikido, MMA and BJJ. I still think the most effective weapon in a fight is my kick, based on the fights I've been in. Jujitsu is AWESOME for getting out of things, but in a real fight it's really hard to get someone stupid enough to jump into your guard. Usually they knock you down, wait for you to get up, and rush you with hooks as you get up. Defensively, though, it's invaluable.
But really, in about 3 of the 4 fights I've been in since knowing both, I got sucker punched, knocked down, jumped back up, threw a kick at their head level, and everyone backed the fuck off. I hit one guy with a roundhouse in the face and broke his nose before unloading like 8 kicks on him that ended with an axe kick bouncing his head off of the asphalt. He was still snoring when they put him on the stretcher.
Just saying, unless you're up against a trained fighter, a traditional martial art is more than enough.
On December 29 2009 14:17 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I started off in taekwondo when I was young and trained for over 10 years, got my black belt, and diversified into aikido, MMA and BJJ. I still think the most effective weapon in a fight is my kick, based on the fights I've been in. Jujitsu is AWESOME for getting out of things, but in a real fight it's really hard to get someone stupid enough to jump into your guard. Usually they knock you down, wait for you to get up, and rush you with hooks as you get up. Defensively, though, it's invaluable.
But really, in about 3 of the 4 fights I've been in since knowing both, I got sucker punched, knocked down, jumped back up, threw a kick at their head level, and everyone backed the fuck off. I hit one guy with a roundhouse in the face and broke his nose before unloading like 8 kicks on him that ended with an axe kick bouncing his head off of the asphalt. He was still snoring when they put him on the stretcher.
Just saying, unless you're up against a trained fighter, a traditional martial art is more than enough.
That's why you learn takedowns and throws! Grappling goes both ways you know.
Also: under whom did you study BJJ?
Edit: I think we should be cognizant of the limitations of the term "TMA". As an example, Judo and BJJ are older than Taekwondo, and all three are relatively modern. Aikido is also usually thrown in with TMA but it is also newer than Judo.
Most schools of "Japanese" Jujutsu with which people would be familiar are probably not Japanese at all, and are in fact amalgamations of Judo, Aikido, and Karate (among others?) yet because people acknowledge Japanese JJ as a traditional art this fact is overlooked.
These above example are ignoring active charlatanry and the like.
On December 29 2009 12:02 Kiarip wrote: Also, I don't know if you caught it, but my original point was largely around the fact that BJJ teaches some stand up, and it teaches techniques against strikers, so BJJ is not actually a pure grappling style, so it's not really fair to have a Kung Fu fighter who was only taught striking to fight a BJJ fighter, because in reality Kung Fu also has grappling techniques, which are obviously aren't as effective, but they are there, and the guy obviously didn't know anything about them, so the only thing that this video proves is that his Wing Chun training sucks, and honestly most Wing Chun schools, and other TMA schools suck just like you said, but it's no reason to bag on TMA's effectiveness in combat. Most of TMA's aren't that less effective than other pure martial arts if the practitioner is actually skilled. Obviously pure martial arts aren't really effective styles in comparison to MMA in the first place, but MMA isn't really a style, by its intended definition it's the most effective way to fight.
dude you just proved you don't know anything near enough to be poppin off adive about what will work in a cage.
BJJ is grappling only, no strikes whatsoever. Period. Watch a BJJ match and count the strikes (here's a hint, it's always 0)
And for the love of god you are saying that one style vs one style striker win.
Let's take a quick look at the some of the first guys to win UFC tourney's:
Gracie x3, Severen x2, Frye x2, Coleman x 2, Randy, Kerr x2, Miletich, Bolander, Sakuraba, & Hendo. Out of 23 UC tournys (which wer emore or less one style vs one style) grapplers won 15 of them. One was won by Marco Ruas whom can only be described as complete so not counting him strikers won 7 tourny's or roughly 30%. Which means according to those numbers Grapplers won 70% of the time. Can't argue with facts....
Than if you look at champions across all time in the UFC (not tourny's, defenses count as a title won, so do interm) you are looking at 63 UFC title won by grapplers and 32 won by strikers. So 66% of the time in the UFC grapplers hold the belt.
the stats don't add up in your favor. sorry i know ur batshit nuts bout WC but in a fight (1v1, one style) Grappling > striking. it's been proven 100's of times
Oddly enough, I don't "lol" at Zerg_Russian or find him completely offbase.
And my purple belt is under Renzo Gracie.
Fights are fights.
I've gotten jacked in the guard, I've ko'd people on the feet, I've been KO'd on the feet, I've submitted people from my back, and I've beaten them senseless on the top.
"It is better to know something than to not know something" was some simple wisdom from Royce Gracie.
You never know what is going to happen in a fight.
True, my base is in brazilian jiu-jitsu. I love it. I love everything about it. But takedowns get stopped, people don't go into your guard, and often you are outsized and out conditioned.
Mine ended up being more of a mix of boxing and wrestling. I've lost to other jiu-jitsu players and I've beaten my fair share.
When I lost, it wasn't because their style was better, it is because THEY were better than me. Just had more heart, their technique was solid, and I paid for mistakes.
Oh, and Diamondback2, if you go out and get a copy of Renzo and Royler's "Brazilian Jiu-jitsu Theory and Technique" you will find they actually go over a number of strikes in it.
Sports jiu-jitsu = "no strikes" Self-defense Jiu-jitsu = strike when it is to your advantage.
On December 29 2009 12:02 Kiarip wrote: Also, I don't know if you caught it, but my original point was largely around the fact that BJJ teaches some stand up, and it teaches techniques against strikers, so BJJ is not actually a pure grappling style, so it's not really fair to have a Kung Fu fighter who was only taught striking to fight a BJJ fighter, because in reality Kung Fu also has grappling techniques, which are obviously aren't as effective, but they are there, and the guy obviously didn't know anything about them, so the only thing that this video proves is that his Wing Chun training sucks, and honestly most Wing Chun schools, and other TMA schools suck just like you said, but it's no reason to bag on TMA's effectiveness in combat. Most of TMA's aren't that less effective than other pure martial arts if the practitioner is actually skilled. Obviously pure martial arts aren't really effective styles in comparison to MMA in the first place, but MMA isn't really a style, by its intended definition it's the most effective way to fight.
dude you just proved you don't know anything near enough to be poppin off adive about what will work in a cage.
BJJ is grappling only, no strikes whatsoever. Period. Watch a BJJ match and count the strikes (here's a hint, it's always 0)
And for the love of god you are saying that one style vs one style striker win.
Let's take a quick look at the some of the first guys to win UFC tourney's:
Gracie x3, Severen x2, Frye x2, Coleman x 2, Randy, Kerr x2, Miletich, Bolander, Sakuraba, & Hendo. Out of 23 UC tournys (which wer emore or less one style vs one style) grapplers won 15 of them. One was won by Marco Ruas whom can only be described as complete so not counting him strikers won 7 tourny's or roughly 30%. Which means according to those numbers Grapplers won 70% of the time. Can't argue with facts....
Than if you look at champions across all time in the UFC (not tourny's, defenses count as a title won, so do interm) you are looking at 63 UFC title won by grapplers and 32 won by strikers. So 66% of the time in the UFC grapplers hold the belt.
the stats don't add up in your favor. sorry i know ur batshit nuts bout WC but in a fight (1v1, one style) Grappling > striking. it's been proven 100's of times
63
Are you sure? I've heard of BJJ schools having 'self defense' curricula, which sounds like it may involve some degree of striking. Obviously this isn't the meat and potatoes of BJJ, but there's no well defined universal BJJ curriculum either.
Your reference to BJJ matches is kind of meaningless. There is no striking in Judo competition either, but strikes are, I assure, you, technically part of the art (incidentally so are leg locks, neck cranks and other techniques that are illegal in competition).
Kiarip - I really think you are underestimating how hard it is to stop a good grappler from taking you down without appreciable grappling experience. Your argument about grapplers being used to outdoing other grapplers in the clinch goes both ways - a boxer is used to hitting people who are trying to box with him. It is possible that a boxer could knock someone out before he got a hold of him but we can see how resilient people are - that would not be easy to do consistently. If a good grappler takes an uninitiated grappler to the ground the latter man is not likely to be getting up. Once on the ground the boxer's skillset is essentially useless, and he will be abused by the grappler. If the striker is just running away the grappler must obviously just be a better runner in order to catch him, but if the striker is trying to fight, every strike is an opportunity for the grappler to move in.
I agree that following someone to the ground in a self defense situation is probably not a good idea due to the potential for other attackers (a situation like this actually happened recently to an acquaintance), but I don't know that anyone is saying it is. Grappling would most likely actually help you avoid being dragged to the ground in a self defense situation.
On December 29 2009 16:42 jeddus wrote: Oddly enough, I don't "lol" at Zerg_Russian or find him completely offbase.
And my purple belt is under Renzo Gracie.
Fights are fights.
I've gotten jacked in the guard, I've ko'd people on the feet, I've been KO'd on the feet, I've submitted people from my back, and I've beaten them senseless on the top.
"It is better to know something than to not know something" was some simple wisdom from Royce Gracie.
You never know what is going to happen in a fight.
True, my base is in brazilian jiu-jitsu. I love it. I love everything about it. But takedowns get stopped, people don't go into your guard, and often you are outsized and out conditioned.
You're saying a lot of things that are really strange.
-You're a purple belt in bjj.(which only sounds strange given the following) -You don't find anything about Zerg_Russian's post off base at all even though he says Jiu Jitsu has no use defensively. -You claim that you've submitted people from your guard as if it's some sort of miraculous feat. Hell...being a purple under Renzo I'd sure hope you'd accomplished this by now. Freaking white's at the local BJJ shop submit people from their guard. -You say sometimes "people don't go into your guard" as if that is the only position a person would ever be in danger when facing a bjj practitioner.
Did you go to Renzo's academy or an affiliate? Who gave you your purple? How long did it take to get your blue/purple?
Are you sure? I've heard of BJJ schools having 'self defense' curricula, which sounds like it may involve some degree of striking. Obviously this isn't the meat and potatoes of BJJ, but there's no well defined universal BJJ curriculum either.
I've hopped around among a few different BJJ schools and submissions wrestling places which all teach completely different.
Most BJJ schools teach pure submission/position and only with a gi They also teach things liek open hand slaps to the ears and heel strikes to the legs/abdomen. These places often teach basic things like a jab-->push kick---> double leg which was all you really needed like 15 years ago. Stuff doesnt really work now.
On December 29 2009 16:42 jeddus wrote: Oddly enough, I don't "lol" at Zerg_Russian or find him completely offbase.
And my purple belt is under Renzo Gracie.
Fights are fights.
I've gotten jacked in the guard, I've ko'd people on the feet, I've been KO'd on the feet, I've submitted people from my back, and I've beaten them senseless on the top.
"It is better to know something than to not know something" was some simple wisdom from Royce Gracie.
You never know what is going to happen in a fight.
True, my base is in brazilian jiu-jitsu. I love it. I love everything about it. But takedowns get stopped, people don't go into your guard, and often you are outsized and out conditioned.
Mine ended up being more of a mix of boxing and wrestling. I've lost to other jiu-jitsu players and I've beaten my fair share.
When I lost, it wasn't because their style was better, it is because THEY were better than me. Just had more heart, their technique was solid, and I paid for mistakes.
Oh, and Diamondback2, if you go out and get a copy of Renzo and Royler's "Brazilian Jiu-jitsu Theory and Technique" you will find they actually go over a number of strikes in it.
Sports jiu-jitsu = "no strikes" Self-defense Jiu-jitsu = strike when it is to your advantage.
You're saying a lot of things that are really strange.
-You're a purple belt in bjj.(which only sounds strange given the following) -You don't find anything about Zerg_Russian's post off base at all even though he says Jiu Jitsu has no use defensively. -You claim that you've submitted people from your guard as if it's some sort of miraculous feat. Hell...being a purple under Renzo I'd sure hope you'd accomplished this by now. Freaking white's at the local BJJ shop submit people from their guard. -You say sometimes "people don't go into your guard" as if that is the only position a person would ever be in danger when facing a bjj practitioner.
Did you go to Renzo's academy or an affiliate? Who gave you your purple? How long did it take to get your blue/purple?
Just curious is all
I gathered he meant submitting someone in a "real fight" rather than in BJJ class.
The guard comment is pretty odd though. I am not a very good or experienced grappler, but I don't imagine I would ever think to deliberately go inside someone's guard (unless we were starting in guard). It is more like, I get trapped in someone's guard after trying to get around it, or I have a strong position and they get their guard back.
On December 29 2009 16:42 jeddus wrote: Oddly enough, I don't "lol" at Zerg_Russian or find him completely offbase.
And my purple belt is under Renzo Gracie.
Fights are fights.
I've gotten jacked in the guard, I've ko'd people on the feet, I've been KO'd on the feet, I've submitted people from my back, and I've beaten them senseless on the top.
"It is better to know something than to not know something" was some simple wisdom from Royce Gracie.
You never know what is going to happen in a fight.
True, my base is in brazilian jiu-jitsu. I love it. I love everything about it. But takedowns get stopped, people don't go into your guard, and often you are outsized and out conditioned.
Mine ended up being more of a mix of boxing and wrestling. I've lost to other jiu-jitsu players and I've beaten my fair share.
When I lost, it wasn't because their style was better, it is because THEY were better than me. Just had more heart, their technique was solid, and I paid for mistakes.
Oh, and Diamondback2, if you go out and get a copy of Renzo and Royler's "Brazilian Jiu-jitsu Theory and Technique" you will find they actually go over a number of strikes in it.
Sports jiu-jitsu = "no strikes" Self-defense Jiu-jitsu = strike when it is to your advantage.
You're saying a lot of things that are really strange.
-You're a purple belt in bjj.(which only sounds strange given the following) -You don't find anything about Zerg_Russian's post off base at all even though he says Jiu Jitsu has no use defensively. -You claim that you've submitted people from your guard as if it's some sort of miraculous feat. Hell...being a purple under Renzo I'd sure hope you'd accomplished this by now. Freaking white's at the local BJJ shop submit people from their guard. -You say sometimes "people don't go into your guard" as if that is the only position a person would ever be in danger when facing a bjj practitioner.
Did you go to Renzo's academy or an affiliate? Who gave you your purple? How long did it take to get your blue/purple?
Just curious is all
I gathered he meant submitting someone in a "real fight" rather than in BJJ class.
The guard comment is pretty odd though. I am not a very good or experienced grappler, but I don't imagine I would ever think to deliberately go inside someone's guard (unless we were starting in guard). It is more like, I get trapped in someone's guard after trying to get around it, or I have a strong position and they get their guard back.
Guard is probably the least desirable position to be in for me (other than being mounted)
When you're in a good position and your opponent manages to get you back into his guard it's like " ahhh now i have to work alllll over again to get that position back + it's easier for him to sweep/submit me now." frustrating for sure.
Against untrained fighters, i think grappling and striking are about equal. Basically, you know what you are doing, and they do not. It doesnt matter how cleanly you beat them, so long as you do.
I think when we discuss moderately skilled fighters (so not black belts, but not whites either), without cross-training, grappling does come out on top. Most strikers just do not know how to shut down a grappler, and only train against other strikers. At the same time, though grapplers afr often training against other grapplers, that is not fundamentally a bad thing, as the physics of takedowns, passing guard and submission attempts are the same. Basically, you dont need to train specifically against strikers, as grappling will work against them, while a striker MUST cross train, or he will have very little chance against a grappler.
However, once we look at elite level fighters, the discussion becomes irrelevant. Look at Mirko Fillopovic, his takedown defence was insane, he even submitted Kevin Randleman, yet Cro Cop was the most feared striker of his era. He took his kickboxing and added elements to help round it out (most sprawl defence, some groundwork). I think strikers need a REALLY good mental game to fight against grapplers.
As stated by a previous poster, a grapplers strategy can often be as simple as takedown, mount, submit. And its true. Strikers dont have it so easy, as saying "ill just punch him out" doesnt make a lot of sense. Different striking styles have to be taken into consideration, as well as stance, whether they are neuteral or leading with a foot, where their hands are, how they move their torsos etc etc etc. Even randoms can be a little tricky to fight, while I imagine they are deadfish to a grappler.
Having said all of that, I weigh only 68kg, and I can KO someone with chainpunch. So striking martial arts do teach you something, but as others have said, you need a good teacher, as the McDojo problem is all to real. I have trained for two years under a Master, who trained under Wong Shun Leung, who was Yip Man's top student, and I have only recently made it to the second form in modified WSLWC. And I train 2 nights a week for three hours in pure WC, 1 afternoon a week crosstraining with a Gracie BJJ school. Our second form is perhaps the equivalent of a red belt, with third form being a blackbelt. First form sort of runs the ambit of everything else, people are often in it for a long time.
However, there is another WC school nearby, and I know students there are into third form, training once a week for a year. Which is ridicuous. But that is the problem with striking martial arts in general, its very easy for teachers to feed their student "martial magic" rather than the real stuff, just to make money. I know TKD and karate have had similar problems. Some people just suck. I think with grappling, its much harder to fake, because you can train safely adnd put it into practice. If I wasn't doing full contact training, I would just have to take it for granted that what I am learning works, but thankfully I know that it does. Yet most striking martial arts have no contact training whatsoever, and resultantly the fighters they breed cannot take or give a punch, arent used to getting tired and dont know how to think in combat. So they are awful.
If I could start completely over, I would still do WSLWC. Having used it repeatedly, I know it does what it is meant to - give you tools to fight. As my Sifu says, "you should master the system, not let the system master you". He encourages us to bring in elements form other martial arts to better round out our styles. I dont think anyone style cannot benefit from crosstraining. The greatest BJJ fighters of all time, the Nogueira brothers, are both amazing strikers (they train with the cuban national boxing team ffs!).
Lets all chill, and watch some UFC highlight videos.
On December 29 2009 16:42 jeddus wrote: And my purple belt is under Renzo Gracie.
I'm calling shenanigans here. Either post ur name or proof. Sounds to me like you are a purple belt in the book, which equals not much of anything. I'm a black belt in all of Eddie Bravo's books, but yet I'm still only a 4th stripe white belt.
And BJJ is no strikes FFS. Abu Dhabi: no strikes, BJJ Worlds: no strikes, Pan-Am: No Strikes, Brazilian Nationals: No Strikes Arnolds: No Strikes etc etc......
BJJ that includes strikes is not BJJ but a combination of the arts. For example if a BJJ school teaches Thai Boxing combined with BJJ, it's MMA. MMA means mixed martial arts, ie combining 2 or more martial arts. UFC does not equal MMA, they are 2 totally different things.
For example the BJJ place I used to go to offered normal BJJ classes, and MMA classes. They are 2 totally different things. You can earn a black belt in BJJ with never throwing a punch. Why do you think Joe Rogan always makes comments that a black belt in BJJ is not a black belt in MMA BJJ. As soon as strikes are added shit changes.
And to anyone that thinks BJJ does not work on the street they obviously have not tried it. 99% of people have not a clue what to do n the ground. The couple times I have got in a fight since starting MMA and BJJ classes, I take them down, they roll over post up and try and stand up, and it's over by that point. Or they shoot in with their necks in the open. It becomes no challenge unless the guy also knows grappling. Ever see bully beatdown? It's an extreme case, but same idea.
On December 29 2009 12:02 Kiarip wrote: Also, I don't know if you caught it, but my original point was largely around the fact that BJJ teaches some stand up, and it teaches techniques against strikers, so BJJ is not actually a pure grappling style, so it's not really fair to have a Kung Fu fighter who was only taught striking to fight a BJJ fighter, because in reality Kung Fu also has grappling techniques, which are obviously aren't as effective, but they are there, and the guy obviously didn't know anything about them, so the only thing that this video proves is that his Wing Chun training sucks, and honestly most Wing Chun schools, and other TMA schools suck just like you said, but it's no reason to bag on TMA's effectiveness in combat. Most of TMA's aren't that less effective than other pure martial arts if the practitioner is actually skilled. Obviously pure martial arts aren't really effective styles in comparison to MMA in the first place, but MMA isn't really a style, by its intended definition it's the most effective way to fight.
dude you just proved you don't know anything near enough to be poppin off adive about what will work in a cage.
BJJ is grappling only, no strikes whatsoever. Period. Watch a BJJ match and count the strikes (here's a hint, it's always 0)
And for the love of god you are saying that one style vs one style striker win.
Let's take a quick look at the some of the first guys to win UFC tourney's:
Gracie x3, Severen x2, Frye x2, Coleman x 2, Randy, Kerr x2, Miletich, Bolander, Sakuraba, & Hendo. Out of 23 UC tournys (which wer emore or less one style vs one style) grapplers won 15 of them. One was won by Marco Ruas whom can only be described as complete so not counting him strikers won 7 tourny's or roughly 30%. Which means according to those numbers Grapplers won 70% of the time. Can't argue with facts....
Than if you look at champions across all time in the UFC (not tourny's, defenses count as a title won, so do interm) you are looking at 63 UFC title won by grapplers and 32 won by strikers. So 66% of the time in the UFC grapplers hold the belt.
the stats don't add up in your favor. sorry i know ur batshit nuts bout WC but in a fight (1v1, one style) Grappling > striking. it's been proven 100's of times
63
because UFC has good strikers right? o wait they don't. UFC has "ufc quality" strikers. Everyone always says o grapplign this grappling that, but in fuckign reality most of UFC strikers, are terrible terrible brawlers and would get their ass absolutely handed to them by K-1 strikers, or any strong kick boxers for that matter. I know enough of what works in a fight to not have have to listen to you claiming how UFC actually proved anything to the world about martial arts, except for that cross training works... which is like.. duh?
On December 29 2009 21:48 jfazz wrote: Against untrained fighters, i think grappling and striking are about equal. Basically, you know what you are doing, and they do not. It doesnt matter how cleanly you beat them, so long as you do.
I think when we discuss moderately skilled fighters (so not black belts, but not whites either), without cross-training, grappling does come out on top. Most strikers just do not know how to shut down a grappler, and only train against other strikers. At the same time, though grapplers afr often training against other grapplers, that is not fundamentally a bad thing, as the physics of takedowns, passing guard and submission attempts are the same. Basically, you dont need to train specifically against strikers, as grappling will work against them, while a striker MUST cross train, or he will have very little chance against a grappler.
However, once we look at elite level fighters, the discussion becomes irrelevant. Look at Mirko Fillopovic, his takedown defence was insane, he even submitted Kevin Randleman, yet Cro Cop was the most feared striker of his era. He took his kickboxing and added elements to help round it out (most sprawl defence, some groundwork). I think strikers need a REALLY good mental game to fight against grapplers.
As stated by a previous poster, a grapplers strategy can often be as simple as takedown, mount, submit. And its true. Strikers dont have it so easy, as saying "ill just punch him out" doesnt make a lot of sense. Different striking styles have to be taken into consideration, as well as stance, whether they are neuteral or leading with a foot, where their hands are, how they move their torsos etc etc etc. Even randoms can be a little tricky to fight, while I imagine they are deadfish to a grappler.
Having said all of that, I weigh only 68kg, and I can KO someone with chainpunch. So striking martial arts do teach you something, but as others have said, you need a good teacher, as the McDojo problem is all to real. I have trained for two years under a Master, who trained under Wong Shun Leung, who was Yip Man's top student, and I have only recently made it to the second form in modified WSLWC. And I train 2 nights a week for three hours in pure WC, 1 afternoon a week crosstraining with a Gracie BJJ school. Our second form is perhaps the equivalent of a red belt, with third form being a blackbelt. First form sort of runs the ambit of everything else, people are often in it for a long time.
However, there is another WC school nearby, and I know students there are into third form, training once a week for a year. Which is ridicuous. But that is the problem with striking martial arts in general, its very easy for teachers to feed their student "martial magic" rather than the real stuff, just to make money. I know TKD and karate have had similar problems. Some people just suck. I think with grappling, its much harder to fake, because you can train safely adnd put it into practice. If I wasn't doing full contact training, I would just have to take it for granted that what I am learning works, but thankfully I know that it does. Yet most striking martial arts have no contact training whatsoever, and resultantly the fighters they breed cannot take or give a punch, arent used to getting tired and dont know how to think in combat. So they are awful.
If I could start completely over, I would still do WSLWC. Having used it repeatedly, I know it does what it is meant to - give you tools to fight. As my Sifu says, "you should master the system, not let the system master you". He encourages us to bring in elements form other martial arts to better round out our styles. I dont think anyone style cannot benefit from crosstraining. The greatest BJJ fighters of all time, the Nogueira brothers, are both amazing strikers (they train with the cuban national boxing team ffs!).
You are welcome!
You should check out some Tang Lang Quan techniques. They do have some close contact stuff as majority of the techniques you're using involves knees and elbows and many guard-breaking techniques. You also learn a couple of takedown moves but very little groundwork (like in most striking styles). The difference between TLQ and most common striking martial arts (Kickboxing, Taekwondo, Karate etc.) is the distance to your target, which in case of TLQ is usually much shorter as you start at a distance -> rapidly close in (they do have some long distance techniques too) -> co-co-co-combo -> takedown -> kicking/punching lying guy (not fun but effective).
On December 29 2009 16:42 jeddus wrote: And my purple belt is under Renzo Gracie.
I'm calling shenanigans here. Either post ur name or proof. Sounds to me like you are a purple belt in the book, which equals not much of anything. I'm a black belt in all of Eddie Bravo's books, but yet I'm still only a 4th stripe white belt.
And BJJ is no strikes FFS. Abu Dhabi: no strikes, BJJ Worlds: no strikes, Pan-Am: No Strikes, Brazilian Nationals: No Strikes Arnolds: No Strikes etc etc......
BJJ that includes strikes is not BJJ but a combination of the arts. For example if a BJJ school teaches Thai Boxing combined with BJJ, it's MMA. MMA means mixed martial arts, ie combining 2 or more martial arts. UFC does not equal MMA, they are 2 totally different things.
For example the BJJ place I used to go to offered normal BJJ classes, and MMA classes. They are 2 totally different things. You can earn a black belt in BJJ with never throwing a punch. Why do you think Joe Rogan always makes comments that a black belt in BJJ is not a black belt in MMA BJJ. As soon as strikes are added shit changes.
And to anyone that thinks BJJ does not work on the street they obviously have not tried it. 99% of people have not a clue what to do n the ground. The couple times I have got in a fight since starting MMA and BJJ classes, I take them down, they roll over post up and try and stand up, and it's over by that point. Or they shoot in with their necks in the open. It becomes no challenge unless the guy also knows grappling. Ever see bully beatdown? It's an extreme case, but same idea.
Once again - BJJ has no universally defined curriculum. Please reread posts on previous page. Citing competitions as evidence is meaningless for reasons mentioned on the previous page. This is unimportant as striking is not the core of BJJ, or even a significant peripheral, but I still don't understand why you're arguing about this.
I don't know which post you're referring to with the "street effectiveness" reference, but most of the criticism in that regard has to do with a self defense situation, NOT a one-on-one situation. What you are saying is obviously true in the latter scenario, but it is not advisable to follow someone to the ground in a self defense situation when you are in real danger for obvious reasons.
That is not to say grappling is unhelpful in a 'real self defense' situation - obviously it can help you avoid being dragged down so that you can still get away, and if you do get stuck on the ground you're not as screwed as you otherwise might be if you didn't train grappling.
On December 30 2009 03:28 Kiarip wrote: because UFC has good strikers right? o wait they don't. UFC has "ufc quality" strikers. Everyone always says o grapplign this grappling that, but in fuckign reality most of UFC strikers, are terrible terrible brawlers and would get their ass absolutely handed to them by K-1 strikers, or any strong kick boxers for that matter. I know enough of what works in a fight to not have have to listen to you claiming how UFC actually proved anything to the world about martial arts, except for that cross training works... which is like.. duh?
Semmy Schilt has been TKO's by a man on the UFC 98 card in MMA. Gilbert Yvel. Whom has only fought in K1 once. Schilt has an impressive 1-1 record in the UFC and 4-3 record in PRIDE.
Overeem has destroyed two top kickboxers in Badr Hari and Peter Aerts, in kickboxing. And Overeem has been beaten 6 times by guys in the UFC.
Cro Cop whom has beaten kickboxing greats such as Jérôme Le Banner, Peter Aerts, and Remy Bonjasky is not only in the UFC but has posted a measly 2-3 record in the UFC. O yea he got TKO'd by Dos Santos, the guy fighting the guy that TKO'd Semmy Schilt, Yvel at UFC 108.
So the UFC has no K1 level strikers?
As for Thai Boxing they have some sick Thai boxers: Anderson Silva, Shogun, Wandy, Alves, Daley, Thigao Silva, Dos Santos, Vera, Berry, etc.....
Plus they even have a Shotokan Karate guy, and a Kyokushin Karate guy as champs just for fun.
On December 30 2009 03:28 Kiarip wrote: because UFC has good strikers right? o wait they don't. UFC has "ufc quality" strikers. Everyone always says o grapplign this grappling that, but in fuckign reality most of UFC strikers, are terrible terrible brawlers and would get their ass absolutely handed to them by K-1 strikers, or any strong kick boxers for that matter. I know enough of what works in a fight to not have have to listen to you claiming how UFC actually proved anything to the world about martial arts, except for that cross training works... which is like.. duh?
Semmy Schilt has been TKO's by a man on the UFC 98 card in MMA. Gilbert Yvel. Whom has only fought in K1 once. Schilt has an impressive 1-1 record in the UFC and 4-3 record in PRIDE.
Overeem has destroyed two top kickboxers in Badr Hari and Peter Aerts, in kickboxing. And Overeem has been beaten 6 times by guys in the UFC.
Cro Cop whom has beaten kickboxing greats such as Jérôme Le Banner, Peter Aerts, and Remy Bonjasky is not only in the UFC but has posted a measly 2-3 record in the UFC. O yea he got TKO'd by Dos Santos, the guy fighting the guy that TKO'd Semmy Schilt, Yvel at UFC 108.
So the UFC has no K1 level strikers?
As for Thai Boxing they have some sick Thai boxers: Anderson Silva, Shogun, Wandy, Alves, Daley, Thigao Silva, Dos Santos, Vera, Berry, etc.....
Plus they even have a Shotokan Karate guy, and a Kyokushin Karate guy as champs just for fun.
The UFC has great strikers in every division.
I thought we were talking about back then.
If you're talking about now, yeah they have some good strikers, a few world class that could compete pretty well in K1, they don't get demolished by grapplers though so... where's your point?
On December 30 2009 04:59 Kiarip wrote: I thought we were talking about back then.
If you're talking about now, yeah they have some good strikers, a few world class that could compete pretty well in K1, they don't get demolished by grapplers though so... where's your point?
my bad i thought we were talking about now lol.
ne ways w/e personally i believe BJJ is the best single style vs single style but to each thier own i guess.
i sitll want some sort of proof from jeddus tho. i just don't believe he's a purple under renzo.
On December 30 2009 04:00 Kiarip wrote: do they do contact sparring?
Tang Lang? Depends on the sifu I guess. When I was training it, as a beginners we were assigned to spar with people who had 1 year or more experience. Full contact, no protection gear but some rules: - can't kick below the knee - no fists (had to punch with open palm or the side of your hand)
As you progress it usually becomes full contact with minimum required protection: headgear, gloves (not boxing gloves, the ones used in most MMA fights) and sometimes shin guards and/or body armour. All depends on the teacher though but I guess in most instances you would be using some protection because most of the moves they teach you aren't ordinary punches etc. but specifically designed to break the nose etc. and you probably wouldn't like that (although I know guys who were training it using real full contact without any guards, several times after such sparring they would come home with broken ribs and other injuries like that).
Just full disclosure here, I started training BJJ (white belt) @ yamasaki rockville. Most of the classes I've been to are taught by fransisco neto or fernando yamasaki. I've done boxing while in middle // high school, and I've learned a mix of some type of gong fu (don't know which), WC and Taijutsu (bujunkan), kali(dont know what type), and silat(dont know what type).
Now, even though most of my stand up was trained long ago, and all my grappling exp is recent, I feel much more confidant in a fight standing. Even though I'm only 5'4 125, I feel that it is easier to stop a fight standing. The reason I feel this way is because even though I may be more skilled on the ground, anything can happen. My conditioning isn't what it should be, and anybody can get lucky if they are on top. You also never know what they have on them; I carry a pocketknife on me that a sharp person might notice and take out of my pocket and use against me.
The key to winning fights is to control the range. With the amount of standup training i've done, this is not difficult for me. Having striking knowledge in every range is important to surviving stand up. The flaw with many TMA's is that they have no answer for different ranges. While TMA's in their original form are much more complete arts (and really resemble MMA [because they are generally mma]) most modern TMA focus exclusively on what it is known for.
As it stands, there is no single art (although i've heard good things about KM) that gives you the necessary skills to deal with all situations you might encounter. BJJ partiuclarly (while maybe it is just because I am not super proficient at it), has weaknesses when the 'rules' are not protecting you. By rules I mean most assumptions that a MA works from. Even if you have somebody in guard, they can still land punches. If any single one can connect, you never know what might happen.
So, while as another poster mentioned, yes the body is not as fragile as most TMA's would have you believe, and most of the 'fight stopping' techniques MA's teach won't work because they generally don't. Generally the theory behind them is off, even if the theory is right, your average artist won't have the precision or power to do it in a fluid dynamic environment. On the other hand, there are some assumptions that BJJ also makes that give it holes. Even though the body is stronger then other MA's would have you believe, any artist knows the puncher always has a chance. 'Lucky' punches can do significant amounts of fight changing damage at times. So regarding the video posted, sure the elbows usually won't do much // anything, it isn't safe to assume they will always be useless. The other thing is that if you break an arm or elbow the other person stops fighting. I was in a fight once and broke a guy's elbow and shoulder and then threw him. Thought that would have ended it. Sucker swept me and broke my nose before I got seperation.
Oh, a few other things I'd like to address. Tyson knocked people down with body shots as well, and pre-don king (when he actually trained) he was lightning quick. I'd pick him over any pure grappler any day, no matter who it is. Even a Gracie.
Second, Bruce Lee trained in judo so beating him wouldn't be as simple as just taking him down. That and he was possibly the fastest man alive. Those guys saying so n so could beat him should probably learn more about Bruce. World level body builders admired his muscleature, yet that did not negatively affect his flexibility or speed. I forgot what his right straight speed was, but he could throw in a sickeningly short time. I would give him a fair chance against anybody in the world.
Lastly, UFC strikers arn't all they are cracked up to be. Anderson Silva is touted to be one of the best strikers, but he was 1-1 boxing. His win came against a debut fighter. Not anything special. If he went up against a Roy Jones in his prime he would get destroyed. While Anderson is probably a better fighter overall, it makes me laugh when UFC or MMA fans say so n so is excellent at striking, and better then boxers etc. High level pro boxers will always be better at striking, that is all they do.
On December 29 2009 12:02 Kiarip wrote: Also, I don't know if you caught it, but my original point was largely around the fact that BJJ teaches some stand up, and it teaches techniques against strikers, so BJJ is not actually a pure grappling style, so it's not really fair to have a Kung Fu fighter who was only taught striking to fight a BJJ fighter, because in reality Kung Fu also has grappling techniques, which are obviously aren't as effective, but they are there, and the guy obviously didn't know anything about them, so the only thing that this video proves is that his Wing Chun training sucks, and honestly most Wing Chun schools, and other TMA schools suck just like you said, but it's no reason to bag on TMA's effectiveness in combat. Most of TMA's aren't that less effective than other pure martial arts if the practitioner is actually skilled. Obviously pure martial arts aren't really effective styles in comparison to MMA in the first place, but MMA isn't really a style, by its intended definition it's the most effective way to fight.
dude you just proved you don't know anything near enough to be poppin off adive about what will work in a cage.
BJJ is grappling only, no strikes whatsoever. Period. Watch a BJJ match and count the strikes (here's a hint, it's always 0)
And for the love of god you are saying that one style vs one style striker win.
Let's take a quick look at the some of the first guys to win UFC tourney's:
Gracie x3, Severen x2, Frye x2, Coleman x 2, Randy, Kerr x2, Miletich, Bolander, Sakuraba, & Hendo. Out of 23 UC tournys (which wer emore or less one style vs one style) grapplers won 15 of them. One was won by Marco Ruas whom can only be described as complete so not counting him strikers won 7 tourny's or roughly 30%. Which means according to those numbers Grapplers won 70% of the time. Can't argue with facts....
Than if you look at champions across all time in the UFC (not tourny's, defenses count as a title won, so do interm) you are looking at 63 UFC title won by grapplers and 32 won by strikers. So 66% of the time in the UFC grapplers hold the belt.
the stats don't add up in your favor. sorry i know ur batshit nuts bout WC but in a fight (1v1, one style) Grappling > striking. it's been proven 100's of times
63
Except these were proven in a ring. As someone already stated, the type of fighting has its different applications. In real life, those grapplers would get utterly destroyed in the streets if fighting more than one person. Also, in real life, most people have these things called weapons. Needless to say, it would help to be good in this fighting style as well. Martial arts fanatics really do need to learn from each other, and stop trying to best each other's styles.
On December 30 2009 15:37 dogabutila wrote: Oh, a few other things I'd like to address. Tyson knocked people down with body shots as well, and pre-don king (when he actually trained) he was lightning quick. I'd pick him over any pure grappler any day, no matter who it is. Even a Gracie.
You'd pick Tyson over a pure grappler? Tyson only trains himself to punch. No take down defense, no kicking ability, 0 ground game.
90% of Tyson's punches came from inside his opponents range which is a cake double leg for any legit wrestler. In an actual fight an elite level grappler would have Tyson on the mat before he really knew what was going on.
Second, Bruce Lee trained in judo so beating him wouldn't be as simple as just taking him down. That and he was possibly the fastest man alive. Those guys saying so n so could beat him should probably learn more about Bruce. World level body builders admired his muscleature, yet that did not negatively affect his flexibility or speed. I forgot what his right straight speed was, but he could throw in a sickeningly short time. I would give him a fair chance against anybody in the world.
While Bruce Lee did learn some grappling, wrestling, and judo, it was nowhere near the level of skill people have today. I think he went for in arm bar in Enter the Dragon which was pretty cool; but on the ground, Lee would be no threat whatsoever to even a blue belt by todays standards.
I do believe ,however, that Lee would have embraced and excelled in BJJ had he gotten more exposure to it.
Lastly, UFC strikers arn't all they are cracked up to be. Anderson Silva is touted to be one of the best strikers, but he was 1-1 boxing. His win came against a debut fighter. Not anything special. If he went up against a Roy Jones in his prime he would get destroyed. While Anderson is probably a better fighter overall, it makes me laugh when UFC or MMA fans say so n so is excellent at striking, and better then boxers etc. High level pro boxers will always be better at striking, that is all they do.
I agree with most of this except for the part about boxers being the best strikers. They most certainly are the best punchers in the game...but strikers?
Most boxers would get torn up in K-1. I don't think boxers would know how to react to kicks of any sort. This isn't even taking into account knees. Most of the stuff we see in boxing simply would not work in any kind of kickboxing environment.
Bobbing and weaving, holding your hands at your waist while jabbing, leaving your front leg out in the middle of nowhere while throwing punches. Shit would get demolished.
Wow, this just in. The whole ordeal between Mark and KF Alex was one massively coordinated troll job. Props to that one guy who said the final fight looked fake from both people. The script definitely involved making the Kung Fu guy look better than he really was. This is why that caught roundhouse was so telegraphed.
I'm still kicking myself for falling for this, but then again it was pretty well done. Here's Mark's jaw dropping post that lets the cat out of the bag:+ Show Spoiler +
I've held off from weighing in until now because I wanted a couple of days to think about this. To be honest i wasn't very happy with my performance at all - my standup was terrible and while its not obvious from the vid alex actually caught me with one of those groin kicks... it hurt. And my shot was terrible like a few of you said, i was actually surprised by how well he avoided it.
But the main thing is the eye gouging. You guys are all writing it off like it didn't matter but you know what i could feel his fingers over my eyes 5 or 6 times... and while i wouldnt feel comfortable employing that technique against someone else i think its fairly obvious that alex would be more than happy to use it against me. I think that sparring like this has made it obvious there's an inherent flaw in BJJ strategy, ok maybe alex would be choked out but he could have blinded me - you can talk about yuki nakai but to be honst thats not worth it for me. I want to study a system where i can win the fight without being blinded. I'm a british and irish champion in BJJ and i only won this fight out of luck because alex dived into my guard!
So as a result i have spoken to alex and decided to begin training in the variant of wing chun he studies. I'm going to keep up my BJJ because i enjoy it and i feel its an important part of a fight, but its not enough. What happens if i run into someone like alex on the street?
I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion but you guys can argue with me when youv'e participated in the same kind of challenge and experienced it for yourselves.
:\ THe Wing Chun guy has only been doing it for 18 months. As kung fu training goes, that guy's still in his diapers. Video really doesn't show anything IMO.
On top of that, one of kung fu's most essential aspects is having excellent footwork. This WC guy's footwork was abysmal. There's three points in there when he's got both feet together which is just terribad. And his reaction to the leg grabs were also equally terrible. Instead of widening his base and pivoting to redirect momentum, he just frogged up.
Plus, WC was a martial art created by a girl to fend off rapists AKA Chinese women's self-defense (lol jk)
I'm by no means an expert. Quite the contrairy, I just practice shotokan karate because I think its a fun way to spend my time and to stay in shape. However for me the striking vs grappling debate is quite simple. Grapples sound good untill you end up on the tarmac and the guy your taking down has a friend with him. As soon as you get into a fight and you notice the other guy is trained aswell its a coinflip who's going to win. (Yes, Grappling has a higher probability of succeeding 1on1.) So my advice would just to run away. (Altough honestly avoiding a fight/running away should always be your first priority.)
Also I find this whole "my style owns your style" debate that seems to be raging on the internet pretty sad.
On December 31 2009 08:58 FlamyDeath wrote: I'm by no means an expert. Quite the contrairy, I just practice shotokan karate because I think its a fun way to spend my time and to stay in shape. However for me the striking vs grappling debate is quite simple. Grapples sound good untill you end up on the tarmac and the guy your taking down has a friend with him. As soon as you get into a fight and you notice the other guy is trained aswell its a coinflip who's going to win. (Yes, Grappling has a higher probability of succeeding 1on1.) So my advice would just to run away. (Altough honestly avoiding a fight/running away should always be your first priority.)
Also I find this whole "my style owns your style" debate that seems to be raging on the internet pretty sad.
As has been mentioned, in a self defense situation grappling knowledge could potentially be pretty helpful in avoiding being taken down/dragged down (making it easier to find an opportunity to run away).
On December 30 2009 15:35 Draconizard wrote: How would a grappler deal people who bite in fights?
Bite back. Remember that while grapplers may appear to put themselves in positions that may be vulnerable to biting, they only do such things because biting is not allowed. If biting were allowed (or there were no rules at all), any grappler would remain much more cognizant of the threat. Remember that a skilled grappler is very good at physically controlling others, and I don't imagine a skilled grappler would have a huge problem dealing with an uninitiated grappler trying to bite him (barring massive size/str discrepancy). Also, I can't imagine being able to bite someone (a better grappler than I) having been fully mounted or back mounted or stuck in scarf hold or something.
Also, I'd be much more scared of the grappler who bites than the non-grappler! :p
To the idiot who said Bruce Lee was seriously trained in Judo. No, he wasnt. He was a WSLWC master, and later combined it with elements of fencing and western boxing to form Jeet Kune Do, his own form of WC.
On December 31 2009 09:40 jfazz wrote: To the idiot who said Bruce Lee was seriously trained in Judo. No, he wasnt. He was a WSLWC master, and later combined it with elements of fencing and western boxing to form Jeet Kune Do, his own form of WC.
Are you quite sure he never trained in Judo? It would seem hard to verify this, but also difficult to disprove it.
As I recall Jackie Chan said he studied Judo (obviously mostly for film action applications) so being an action film star it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Bruce Lee had done the same. Throws look pretty cool on camera.
On December 31 2009 08:58 FlamyDeath wrote: I'm by no means an expert. Quite the contrairy, I just practice shotokan karate because I think its a fun way to spend my time and to stay in shape. However for me the striking vs grappling debate is quite simple. Grapples sound good untill you end up on the tarmac and the guy your taking down has a friend with him. As soon as you get into a fight and you notice the other guy is trained aswell its a coinflip who's going to win. (Yes, Grappling has a higher probability of succeeding 1on1.) So my advice would just to run away. (Altough honestly avoiding a fight/running away should always be your first priority.)
Also I find this whole "my style owns your style" debate that seems to be raging on the internet pretty sad.
As has been mentioned, in a self defense situation grappling knowledge could potentially be pretty helpful in avoiding being taken down/dragged down (making it easier to find an opportunity to run away).
I wasn't trying to say its useless. I've done some judo in the past so I have some basic knowledge about it and how to defend/use it myself.
Im talking about what he used for fighting, thats all that really matters surely. Lots of stuff looks awesome in film that is useless in the real world.
When my Sifu talks about Bruce (they learned from the same Sifu) he hasnt ever mentioned Judo, but always mentions fencing, boxing, sometimes karate.
On December 31 2009 10:51 jfazz wrote: Im talking about what he used for fighting, thats all that really matters surely. Lots of stuff looks awesome in film that is useless in the real world.
When my Sifu talks about Bruce (they learned from the same Sifu) he hasnt ever mentioned Judo, but always mentions fencing, boxing, sometimes karate.
The fact that your Sifu never mentioned it is not reason to berate someone as an idiot. You obviously don't know either, even if the first guy happens to be wrong.
The point the original guy was making was that experience in Judo could deliver some basic competence on the ground (though I feel that the degree of this is dependent on the individual school) - I don't know why you reacted so angrily.
Actually, I have plenty of reason to berate him. He didnt have any clue what martial arts Bruce Lee trained in. Maybe you should let him fight his own battles? As for why I reacted so badly, perhaps because someone is completely misrepresenting one of the icons of my art?
On December 31 2009 13:12 jfazz wrote: Actually, I have plenty of reason to berate him. He didnt have any clue what martial arts Bruce Lee trained in. Maybe you should let him fight his own battles? As for why I reacted so badly, perhaps because someone is completely misrepresenting one of the icons of my art?
On December 30 2009 15:37 dogabutila wrote: Second, Bruce Lee trained in judo so beating him wouldn't be as simple as just taking him down. That and he was possibly the fastest man alive. Those guys saying so n so could beat him should probably learn more about Bruce. World level body builders admired his muscleature, yet that did not negatively affect his flexibility or speed. I forgot what his right straight speed was, but he could throw in a sickeningly short time. I would give him a fair chance against anybody in the world.
He says here that he trained in Judo. You are welcome to ask him to support this, but I'm pretty sure that on your own you can't refute it.
The guy never says that Judo was Bruce Lee's bread and butter, or that it was the only/primary art in which he trained (he didn't even imply it!), so what are you all angry about? There was nothing approaching complete misrepresentation of anything. Maybe you read the post wrong?
Even if you could demonstrate without doubt that Bruce Lee never learned anything about Judo whatsoever (which you can't) it's still not nice to yell about it for no reason.
Sorry to derail but I was browisng some more cool Judo stuff and have found some of the most amazing fights I've ever seen (looks like nothing's going on but the tension is supreme):
Yoshida vs Gracie
And another one
You can clearly see the difference between pure grappling and grappling + striking.
You'd pick Tyson over a pure grappler? Tyson only trains himself to punch. No take down defense, no kicking ability, 0 ground game.
90% of Tyson's punches came from inside his opponents range which is a cake double leg for any legit wrestler. In an actual fight an elite level grappler would have Tyson on the mat before he really knew what was going on.
Not true for 2 reasons, back when tyson was good, his closing speed was rediculously fast. Second, tyson was famous for his hook, but he also like the short uppercut that would be killer to a double leg attempt.
Second, Bruce Lee trained in judo so beating him wouldn't be as simple as just taking him down. That and he was possibly the fastest man alive. Those guys saying so n so could beat him should probably learn more about Bruce. World level body builders admired his muscleature, yet that did not negatively affect his flexibility or speed. I forgot what his right straight speed was, but he could throw in a sickeningly short time. I would give him a fair chance against anybody in the world.
While Bruce Lee did learn some grappling, wrestling, and judo, it was nowhere near the level of skill people have today. I think he went for in arm bar in Enter the Dragon which was pretty cool; but on the ground, Lee would be no threat whatsoever to even a blue belt by todays standards.
I do believe ,however, that Lee would have embraced and excelled in BJJ had he gotten more exposure to it.
It's true that his grappling came later in his career, so he obviously would not be as proficient in it. Having said that, again his speed and elusiveness make him a ridiculous target to catch. I remember him getting pinned (i dont know about submitted, but i imagine he must have been in training or such), but he was not easy for experienced judoka's to work with using ONLY judo rules. I don't think he would be easy to catch and submit without rules or unified rules or whatever.
Lastly, UFC strikers arn't all they are cracked up to be. Anderson Silva is touted to be one of the best strikers, but he was 1-1 boxing. His win came against a debut fighter. Not anything special. If he went up against a Roy Jones in his prime he would get destroyed. While Anderson is probably a better fighter overall, it makes me laugh when UFC or MMA fans say so n so is excellent at striking, and better then boxers etc. High level pro boxers will always be better at striking, that is all they do.
I agree with most of this except for the part about boxers being the best strikers. They most certainly are the best punchers in the game...but strikers?
Most boxers would get torn up in K-1. I don't think boxers would know how to react to kicks of any sort. This isn't even taking into account knees. Most of the stuff we see in boxing simply would not work in any kind of kickboxing environment.
Bobbing and weaving, holding your hands at your waist while jabbing, leaving your front leg out in the middle of nowhere while throwing punches. Shit would get demolished.
I agree with you actually, i forgot to take into account elbows. OTOH, I don't consider knees and kicks striking techniques, just things that use arms etc. The problem with both pro boxers and UFC fighters is that they rely on rules or unspoken agreement or assumptions to protect them at times. Its very common with boxers, not as much with UFC fighters although i've been beginning to see it happen.
That does not mean that they can't or won't be dangerous on the street, it just means they might not be as dangerous or prepared as they could be. For example, how many of them know knife disarms? How many are familiar with firearms? When you train to be as effective as possible in the ring or octogon, you neglect other aspects of training that may take street situations into account.
On December 31 2009 13:56 Manit0u wrote: Sorry to derail but I was browisng some more cool Judo stuff and have found some of the most amazing fights I've ever seen (looks like nothing's going on but the tension is supreme):
You can clearly see the difference between pure grappling and grappling + striking.
It's a shame it seemed like Yoshida never really took MMA very seriously, though he did have one or two good fights.
He is fighting again this new years eve vs Satoshi Ishii (who won Judo olympic gold in 2008 and retired from Judo shortly thereafter to enter MMA). This will be Ishii's debut in MMA, but most people expect him to crush Yoshida.
On December 31 2009 09:40 jfazz wrote: To the idiot who said Bruce Lee was seriously trained in Judo. No, he wasnt. He was a WSLWC master, and later combined it with elements of fencing and western boxing to form Jeet Kune Do, his own form of WC.
To the idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about, Bruce Lee trained with Gene Lebell who taught him both throws and submissions.
On December 31 2009 13:12 jfazz wrote: Actually, I have plenty of reason to berate him. He didnt have any clue what martial arts Bruce Lee trained in. Maybe you should let him fight his own battles? As for why I reacted so badly, perhaps because someone is completely misrepresenting one of the icons of my art?
Apparently it's you who has no clue what Lee actually trained in. Get off your high horse and stop being a douche. You're doing a well enough job of misrepresenting your idol all by yourself.
On December 31 2009 09:40 jfazz wrote: To the idiot who said Bruce Lee was seriously trained in Judo. No, he wasnt. He was a WSLWC master, and later combined it with elements of fencing and western boxing to form Jeet Kune Do, his own form of WC.
Yes, he was. He trained with Gene LeBell and Jesse Glover.
Not true for 2 reasons, back when tyson was good, his closing speed was rediculously fast. Second, tyson was famous for his hook, but he also like the short uppercut that would be killer to a double leg attempt.
It's hard to call since we can't turn back time and enter Tyson into UFC 1 but it's pretty dang hard to avoid any kind of takedown when you've never seen one in your life. Maybe Tyson would have landed the uppercut, maybe he woudnt have. Who knows hah
On December 31 2009 09:40 jfazz wrote: To the idiot who said Bruce Lee was seriously trained in Judo. No, he wasnt. He was a WSLWC master, and later combined it with elements of fencing and western boxing to form Jeet Kune Do, his own form of WC.
Yes, he was. He trained with Gene LeBell and Jesse Glover.
On December 31 2009 14:01 Freyr wrote: It's a shame it seemed like Yoshida never really took MMA very seriously, though he did have one or two good fights.
He is fighting again this new years eve vs Satoshi Ishii (who won Judo olympic gold in 2008 and retired from Judo shortly thereafter to enter MMA). This will be Ishii's debut in MMA, but most people expect him to crush Yoshida.
Oh and, while primarily a WC player, and the other notables Bruce Lee trained in that everybody knows (epee and western boxing), he also trained WTCC, TT, and something else I am forgetting. Mantis style I believe he had some form of knowledge in. I think Inosanto said he also had some knowledge of Jujitsu but I have no idea where he might have picked it up.
On December 31 2009 14:29 dogabutila wrote: Oh and, while primarily a WC player, and the other notables Bruce Lee trained in that everybody knows (epee and western boxing), he also trained WTCC, TT, and something else I am forgetting. Mantis style I believe he had some form of knowledge in. I think Inosanto said he also had some knowledge of Jujitsu but I have no idea where he might have picked it up.
Can you key me into some of those abbreviations. I don't think bruce ever actually trained JJ. I know inosanto did but only much later in his life.
Not true for 2 reasons, back when tyson was good, his closing speed was rediculously fast. Second, tyson was famous for his hook, but he also like the short uppercut that would be killer to a double leg attempt.
It's hard to call since we can't turn back time and enter Tyson into UFC 1 but it's pretty dang hard to avoid any kind of takedown when you've never seen one in your life. Maybe Tyson would have landed the uppercut, maybe he woudnt have. Who knows hah
This is very true, if Tyson never knew what to expect he would probably lose. I'm thinking though, it would be atleast fair to tell him what to expect // show him video since thats what people normally do before matches anyways.
On December 31 2009 14:29 dogabutila wrote: Oh and, while primarily a WC player, and the other notables Bruce Lee trained in that everybody knows (epee and western boxing), he also trained WTCC, TT, and something else I am forgetting. Mantis style I believe he had some form of knowledge in. I think Inosanto said he also had some knowledge of Jujitsu but I have no idea where he might have picked it up.
Can you key me into some of those abbreviations. I don't think bruce ever actually trained JJ. I know inosanto did but only much later in his life.
Maybe inosanto confused judo with JJ. WTCC is a combat form of tai chi chuan (wu tai chi chaun). In HK we call it Nga. Tam Toi - or specifically what he did Jing Mo Tam Tui is a northern chinese martial art. For reference BL was from HK which you know, is southern. The MA's are actually rather different between the two. I think he might have also trained xingyiquan (another northern style). I don't remember what it is that I am forgetting, that might have been it.
On December 31 2009 14:01 Freyr wrote: It's a shame it seemed like Yoshida never really took MMA very seriously, though he did have one or two good fights.
He is fighting again this new years eve vs Satoshi Ishii (who won Judo olympic gold in 2008 and retired from Judo shortly thereafter to enter MMA). This will be Ishii's debut in MMA, but most people expect him to crush Yoshida.
And don't dismiss Yoshida over Judo olympic gold. He got olympic gold, WC gold, 2x silver and 1x bronze. He probably knows a trick or two.
Good was the key word. I know he's had more fights.
Nazgul just recently made a post in the UFC 108 thread referencing exactly what I'm talking about:
Yoshida has always looked bloated at 205 but I haven't been able to find pictures of the weighin yet. Ishii is young and in his prime training with great MMA camps such as Xtreme Couture and ATT. Yoshida on the other hand has always remained a judo-brawler in MMA and never could or never bothered to become anything but that, seemingly being satisfied with his already set super-star status in Japan.
Basically, it seems that Yoshida could have done more than he did. I don't know what you mean about dismissing him over olympic gold - I am aware of Yoshida's Judo accomplishments. Don't get me wrong - I have always liked Yoshida (as a fighter) - he just hasn't performed all that well save in a few fights. (I am differentiating between winning and performing well here)
Glad you are a fan though - I have always enjoyed watching Judo in mma.
On December 31 2009 14:29 dogabutila wrote: Oh and, while primarily a WC player, and the other notables Bruce Lee trained in that everybody knows (epee and western boxing), he also trained WTCC, TT, and something else I am forgetting. Mantis style I believe he had some form of knowledge in. I think Inosanto said he also had some knowledge of Jujitsu but I have no idea where he might have picked it up.
Can you key me into some of those abbreviations. I don't think bruce ever actually trained JJ. I know inosanto did but only much later in his life.
Maybe inosanto confused judo with JJ. WTCC is a combat form of tai chi chuan (wu tai chi chaun). In HK we call it Nga. Tam Toi - or specifically what he did Jing Mo Tam Tui is a northern chinese martial art. For reference BL was from HK which you know, is southern. The MA's are actually rather different between the two. I think he might have also trained xingyiquan (another northern style). I don't remember what it is that I am forgetting, that might have been it.
The confusion would be common enough, but I think it's well known that Inosanto studied BJJ (wikipedia says he did so under the Machado family).
Thats true, but I think inosanto studied BJJ after he made the quote. That is, when he made the quote he probably had little to no knowledge of either judo or BJJ.
EPT
Striking helps MUCH more than grappling in group fights. Sadly, I have been there. Guys who have to focus on 1v1 as opposed to been able to quickly switch opponents as context dictates are at a huge disafvantage, given the constant flux of position in such a confrontation. Just think about it...grappling is based on taking your opponents mobility away, so that you ahve control of the fight. Thats really smart. But you dont take away the opponents mobility in a group fight, just one of the guys. And thus you make yourself a target. Stikers dont do that.
Nonetheless, I suffered a bad injury to my shoulder early this year breaking a kimura...nasty. BJJ guys are extremely difficult in a sporting context, but I would be much more wary of a good boxer/kickboxer in the street.![[image loading]](https://home.comcast.net/~myspace1976/mypics/bjj1.jpg)
