I'm by no means an expert. Quite the contrairy, I just practice shotokan karate because I think its a fun way to spend my time and to stay in shape. However for me the striking vs grappling debate is quite simple. Grapples sound good untill you end up on the tarmac and the guy your taking down has a friend with him. As soon as you get into a fight and you notice the other guy is trained aswell its a coinflip who's going to win. (Yes, Grappling has a higher probability of succeeding 1on1.) So my advice would just to run away. (Altough honestly avoiding a fight/running away should always be your first priority.)
Also I find this whole "my style owns your style" debate that seems to be raging on the internet pretty sad.
On December 31 2009 08:58 FlamyDeath wrote: I'm by no means an expert. Quite the contrairy, I just practice shotokan karate because I think its a fun way to spend my time and to stay in shape. However for me the striking vs grappling debate is quite simple. Grapples sound good untill you end up on the tarmac and the guy your taking down has a friend with him. As soon as you get into a fight and you notice the other guy is trained aswell its a coinflip who's going to win. (Yes, Grappling has a higher probability of succeeding 1on1.) So my advice would just to run away. (Altough honestly avoiding a fight/running away should always be your first priority.)
Also I find this whole "my style owns your style" debate that seems to be raging on the internet pretty sad.
As has been mentioned, in a self defense situation grappling knowledge could potentially be pretty helpful in avoiding being taken down/dragged down (making it easier to find an opportunity to run away).
On December 30 2009 15:35 Draconizard wrote: How would a grappler deal people who bite in fights?
Bite back. Remember that while grapplers may appear to put themselves in positions that may be vulnerable to biting, they only do such things because biting is not allowed. If biting were allowed (or there were no rules at all), any grappler would remain much more cognizant of the threat. Remember that a skilled grappler is very good at physically controlling others, and I don't imagine a skilled grappler would have a huge problem dealing with an uninitiated grappler trying to bite him (barring massive size/str discrepancy). Also, I can't imagine being able to bite someone (a better grappler than I) having been fully mounted or back mounted or stuck in scarf hold or something.
Also, I'd be much more scared of the grappler who bites than the non-grappler! :p
To the idiot who said Bruce Lee was seriously trained in Judo. No, he wasnt. He was a WSLWC master, and later combined it with elements of fencing and western boxing to form Jeet Kune Do, his own form of WC.
On December 31 2009 09:40 jfazz wrote: To the idiot who said Bruce Lee was seriously trained in Judo. No, he wasnt. He was a WSLWC master, and later combined it with elements of fencing and western boxing to form Jeet Kune Do, his own form of WC.
Are you quite sure he never trained in Judo? It would seem hard to verify this, but also difficult to disprove it.
As I recall Jackie Chan said he studied Judo (obviously mostly for film action applications) so being an action film star it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Bruce Lee had done the same. Throws look pretty cool on camera.
On December 31 2009 08:58 FlamyDeath wrote: I'm by no means an expert. Quite the contrairy, I just practice shotokan karate because I think its a fun way to spend my time and to stay in shape. However for me the striking vs grappling debate is quite simple. Grapples sound good untill you end up on the tarmac and the guy your taking down has a friend with him. As soon as you get into a fight and you notice the other guy is trained aswell its a coinflip who's going to win. (Yes, Grappling has a higher probability of succeeding 1on1.) So my advice would just to run away. (Altough honestly avoiding a fight/running away should always be your first priority.)
Also I find this whole "my style owns your style" debate that seems to be raging on the internet pretty sad.
As has been mentioned, in a self defense situation grappling knowledge could potentially be pretty helpful in avoiding being taken down/dragged down (making it easier to find an opportunity to run away).
I wasn't trying to say its useless. I've done some judo in the past so I have some basic knowledge about it and how to defend/use it myself.
Im talking about what he used for fighting, thats all that really matters surely. Lots of stuff looks awesome in film that is useless in the real world.
When my Sifu talks about Bruce (they learned from the same Sifu) he hasnt ever mentioned Judo, but always mentions fencing, boxing, sometimes karate.
On December 31 2009 10:51 jfazz wrote: Im talking about what he used for fighting, thats all that really matters surely. Lots of stuff looks awesome in film that is useless in the real world.
When my Sifu talks about Bruce (they learned from the same Sifu) he hasnt ever mentioned Judo, but always mentions fencing, boxing, sometimes karate.
The fact that your Sifu never mentioned it is not reason to berate someone as an idiot. You obviously don't know either, even if the first guy happens to be wrong.
The point the original guy was making was that experience in Judo could deliver some basic competence on the ground (though I feel that the degree of this is dependent on the individual school) - I don't know why you reacted so angrily.
Actually, I have plenty of reason to berate him. He didnt have any clue what martial arts Bruce Lee trained in. Maybe you should let him fight his own battles? As for why I reacted so badly, perhaps because someone is completely misrepresenting one of the icons of my art?
On December 31 2009 13:12 jfazz wrote: Actually, I have plenty of reason to berate him. He didnt have any clue what martial arts Bruce Lee trained in. Maybe you should let him fight his own battles? As for why I reacted so badly, perhaps because someone is completely misrepresenting one of the icons of my art?
On December 30 2009 15:37 dogabutila wrote: Second, Bruce Lee trained in judo so beating him wouldn't be as simple as just taking him down. That and he was possibly the fastest man alive. Those guys saying so n so could beat him should probably learn more about Bruce. World level body builders admired his muscleature, yet that did not negatively affect his flexibility or speed. I forgot what his right straight speed was, but he could throw in a sickeningly short time. I would give him a fair chance against anybody in the world.
He says here that he trained in Judo. You are welcome to ask him to support this, but I'm pretty sure that on your own you can't refute it.
The guy never says that Judo was Bruce Lee's bread and butter, or that it was the only/primary art in which he trained (he didn't even imply it!), so what are you all angry about? There was nothing approaching complete misrepresentation of anything. Maybe you read the post wrong?
Even if you could demonstrate without doubt that Bruce Lee never learned anything about Judo whatsoever (which you can't) it's still not nice to yell about it for no reason.
Sorry to derail but I was browisng some more cool Judo stuff and have found some of the most amazing fights I've ever seen (looks like nothing's going on but the tension is supreme):
Yoshida vs Gracie
And another one
You can clearly see the difference between pure grappling and grappling + striking.
You'd pick Tyson over a pure grappler? Tyson only trains himself to punch. No take down defense, no kicking ability, 0 ground game.
90% of Tyson's punches came from inside his opponents range which is a cake double leg for any legit wrestler. In an actual fight an elite level grappler would have Tyson on the mat before he really knew what was going on.
Not true for 2 reasons, back when tyson was good, his closing speed was rediculously fast. Second, tyson was famous for his hook, but he also like the short uppercut that would be killer to a double leg attempt.
Second, Bruce Lee trained in judo so beating him wouldn't be as simple as just taking him down. That and he was possibly the fastest man alive. Those guys saying so n so could beat him should probably learn more about Bruce. World level body builders admired his muscleature, yet that did not negatively affect his flexibility or speed. I forgot what his right straight speed was, but he could throw in a sickeningly short time. I would give him a fair chance against anybody in the world.
While Bruce Lee did learn some grappling, wrestling, and judo, it was nowhere near the level of skill people have today. I think he went for in arm bar in Enter the Dragon which was pretty cool; but on the ground, Lee would be no threat whatsoever to even a blue belt by todays standards.
I do believe ,however, that Lee would have embraced and excelled in BJJ had he gotten more exposure to it.
It's true that his grappling came later in his career, so he obviously would not be as proficient in it. Having said that, again his speed and elusiveness make him a ridiculous target to catch. I remember him getting pinned (i dont know about submitted, but i imagine he must have been in training or such), but he was not easy for experienced judoka's to work with using ONLY judo rules. I don't think he would be easy to catch and submit without rules or unified rules or whatever.
Lastly, UFC strikers arn't all they are cracked up to be. Anderson Silva is touted to be one of the best strikers, but he was 1-1 boxing. His win came against a debut fighter. Not anything special. If he went up against a Roy Jones in his prime he would get destroyed. While Anderson is probably a better fighter overall, it makes me laugh when UFC or MMA fans say so n so is excellent at striking, and better then boxers etc. High level pro boxers will always be better at striking, that is all they do.
I agree with most of this except for the part about boxers being the best strikers. They most certainly are the best punchers in the game...but strikers?
Most boxers would get torn up in K-1. I don't think boxers would know how to react to kicks of any sort. This isn't even taking into account knees. Most of the stuff we see in boxing simply would not work in any kind of kickboxing environment.
Bobbing and weaving, holding your hands at your waist while jabbing, leaving your front leg out in the middle of nowhere while throwing punches. Shit would get demolished.
I agree with you actually, i forgot to take into account elbows. OTOH, I don't consider knees and kicks striking techniques, just things that use arms etc. The problem with both pro boxers and UFC fighters is that they rely on rules or unspoken agreement or assumptions to protect them at times. Its very common with boxers, not as much with UFC fighters although i've been beginning to see it happen.
That does not mean that they can't or won't be dangerous on the street, it just means they might not be as dangerous or prepared as they could be. For example, how many of them know knife disarms? How many are familiar with firearms? When you train to be as effective as possible in the ring or octogon, you neglect other aspects of training that may take street situations into account.
On December 31 2009 13:56 Manit0u wrote: Sorry to derail but I was browisng some more cool Judo stuff and have found some of the most amazing fights I've ever seen (looks like nothing's going on but the tension is supreme):
You can clearly see the difference between pure grappling and grappling + striking.
It's a shame it seemed like Yoshida never really took MMA very seriously, though he did have one or two good fights.
He is fighting again this new years eve vs Satoshi Ishii (who won Judo olympic gold in 2008 and retired from Judo shortly thereafter to enter MMA). This will be Ishii's debut in MMA, but most people expect him to crush Yoshida.
On December 31 2009 09:40 jfazz wrote: To the idiot who said Bruce Lee was seriously trained in Judo. No, he wasnt. He was a WSLWC master, and later combined it with elements of fencing and western boxing to form Jeet Kune Do, his own form of WC.
To the idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about, Bruce Lee trained with Gene Lebell who taught him both throws and submissions.
On December 31 2009 13:12 jfazz wrote: Actually, I have plenty of reason to berate him. He didnt have any clue what martial arts Bruce Lee trained in. Maybe you should let him fight his own battles? As for why I reacted so badly, perhaps because someone is completely misrepresenting one of the icons of my art?
Apparently it's you who has no clue what Lee actually trained in. Get off your high horse and stop being a douche. You're doing a well enough job of misrepresenting your idol all by yourself.
On December 31 2009 09:40 jfazz wrote: To the idiot who said Bruce Lee was seriously trained in Judo. No, he wasnt. He was a WSLWC master, and later combined it with elements of fencing and western boxing to form Jeet Kune Do, his own form of WC.
Yes, he was. He trained with Gene LeBell and Jesse Glover.
Not true for 2 reasons, back when tyson was good, his closing speed was rediculously fast. Second, tyson was famous for his hook, but he also like the short uppercut that would be killer to a double leg attempt.
It's hard to call since we can't turn back time and enter Tyson into UFC 1 but it's pretty dang hard to avoid any kind of takedown when you've never seen one in your life. Maybe Tyson would have landed the uppercut, maybe he woudnt have. Who knows hah
On December 31 2009 09:40 jfazz wrote: To the idiot who said Bruce Lee was seriously trained in Judo. No, he wasnt. He was a WSLWC master, and later combined it with elements of fencing and western boxing to form Jeet Kune Do, his own form of WC.
Yes, he was. He trained with Gene LeBell and Jesse Glover.
On December 31 2009 14:01 Freyr wrote: It's a shame it seemed like Yoshida never really took MMA very seriously, though he did have one or two good fights.
He is fighting again this new years eve vs Satoshi Ishii (who won Judo olympic gold in 2008 and retired from Judo shortly thereafter to enter MMA). This will be Ishii's debut in MMA, but most people expect him to crush Yoshida.
Oh and, while primarily a WC player, and the other notables Bruce Lee trained in that everybody knows (epee and western boxing), he also trained WTCC, TT, and something else I am forgetting. Mantis style I believe he had some form of knowledge in. I think Inosanto said he also had some knowledge of Jujitsu but I have no idea where he might have picked it up.
EPT
