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Getting what you deserve

Blogs > Waxangel
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Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33360 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-08 22:04:03
December 28 2009 23:59 GMT
#1
So the news is out, several high profile players cheated in the TSL2 ladder and have been punished accordingly. While there seems to be a little bit of sympathy for the offending players, people seem to agree that it was the correct thing to take a hard stance against cheating. Crime and punishment is always a touchy issue, so I was a little bit surprised to see such a strong community consensus in denouncing the offenders as a very bad lot.

A few weeks ago the TL staff were discussing what would be an appropriate punishment for the players involved. As I went back and forth on my opinion, I began to think back on the major cheating scandals of the past.

Online preliminaries have long become unnecessary in Korean progaming. But in the early 2000’s there were no pro-teams to scout out promising players and bring them up through the ranks, so online tournaments were necessary to allow everyone a chance to prove their skill. To name a few notable examples, the World Cyber Games qualifiers for Korea relied in large part on an online ladder until KeSPA seeding was established, the now defunct television channel GhemTV offered four spots in its Starleague through an online tournament, and the $10,000 first place prize KBK Masters was played completely online through the finals.

Cheating was rampant. The lack of launchers or replays allowed maphack to be used almost completely unchecked, while the alarmingly incompetent tournament organizers were too lazy to enforce rules regarding win-trading and other forms of ladder abuse. When I asked Nazgul about his personal experiences during his stint as a pro-gamer in Korea, he said that without exaggeration 99% of the players on the GhemTV ladder were abusers and that he had faced his fair share of blatant map-hackers as well.

The shadiness of the Starcraft scene was relatively well-known from its early days, but it was not a big deal at the time as Starcraft was still considered to be just a silly, if immensely popular, video game. Even Lee Gi Suk (aka Ssamjang), the earliest face of Korean pro-gaming, may have been guilty of ladder abuse in the first Blizzard Brood War tournament which he then went on to win (there was no conclusive proof). The public was happy enough to have another poster-child for Korea’s burgeoning internet revolution.

Progaming would have to become established as a real professional sport before the issue of cheating would be examined in a more serious light. When WCG2004 came around, it was not just hardcore gamers, but fans of a cultural phenomenon that would hold the players under scrutiny.

To get right to the point, take a look at this list: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=16387.

Even excluding the most laughable offenders who recorded wins at a pace of one every six minutes, the majority of those players were probably abusers. Lim Gyuntae (aka Gyuntae), who was oddly enough, the only high profile player to be disqualified by WCG (I may be wrong on this point, please correct me if you remember), wrote a long post to apologize and describe the ridiculous situation on the ladder. To quote him in part:

“You could not qualify for this tournament without abusing, and every progamer knew this from the start. If I stay honorable and don’t qualify, no one’s going to come out and congratulate me for that. You think anyone abuses because they like it? So I should think about the fans and stop abusing and just fail to qualify? Unless you’re a god, you can’t get in the top 15 without abusing. How are you supposed to get points when no one will play you… … there’s no one in the top 50 who hasn’t abused.”

Gyuntae’s statement was one of frustration. His plan, like that of many others, had been to play multiple accounts into the top fifty through regular play so he would be able to trade wins between accounts for the final push. It required a massive amount of games to be played during the short online-ladder period, and a high enough level of base skill to rank up the multiple accounts. With all the players aware of this strategy, the WCG ladder became a perversely intense competition in cheating where all the original rules had been subverted. The comical high point of Gyuntae’s post was where he asked people to at least recognize the insane amount of effort all the players had to exert in order to cheat the system.

At first, it was a shock. There was much denouncing, mockery, and talk in general. Looking back through pro-gaming community posts from that time, people were frequently calling Hong Jin Ho (aka Yellow) “Abuser Yellow” with derision. However, talk was as far as it went. KeSPA (then still the KPGA) was as incompetent then as it is now and did absolutely nothing. For all their momentary anger, the fans were at a loss for any kind of concrete action to take. A boycott of progaming may have been the only meaningful move to make, but no one was really willing to give up such an entertaining product. A few months later, Proleague continued to be amazing, Yellow was getting bunker rushed (three times) by Boxer in one of the greatest OSLs ever, and life moved on.


I went through the TSL2 disqualifications thread and came across Reason’s post.
+ Show Spoiler +

On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)

F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens

This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.

TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded.


In some ways, it reminds me of Gyuntae’s post. An online ladder will always have intrinsic flaws revolving around dodging and the difficulty of getting games near the top. Gyuntae mentioned as well, “How are you supposed to win when no one will play you?”

The major difference however, is that Gyuntae knew everyone was cheating, and everyone knew that he was cheating as well. Without oversight, the system fell apart, and the players ended up establishing their own corrupt system. ReasoN and the TSL2 cheaters, on the other hand, were attempting to slyly gain an unfair advantage over their peers in a tightly overseen ladder.

The case of the TSL2 cheaters was clear to me, they were quite obviously in the wrong and deserved whatever punishment they received. The more pressing dilemma I was presented with was what was I to think of those Korean pros now, who got away clean in 2004, and why couldn’t I remember how I had felt five years ago?

I realized that I had been as torn then as I am now, and all I had done was to defer judgment for so long that I simply forgot.

It’s no easier now, having to make moral judgments about those I admire. Perhaps it is even harder in the present, because the names Anytime and Iris have acquired so much meaning over time. I recognize that an unregulated ladder is not a credible ladder, but does that mean it does not deserve the least of the players’ respect? Victor Goossens (aka Nazgul) was a noble fool for killing his chances before he even begun by refusing to abuse the GhemTV ladder, but I don’t know whether this means he’s more noble or more foolish.

In the end, I guess my morals are as malleable as anyone’s. It hurts me to say it, but if you were a fan of any early progamer, there’s a good chance that you were cheering for a cheater. It really hurts, but I can live with it.

At least, it takes the sting out of every Air Force Ace loss. Maybe they deserve it.


****
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28654 Posts
December 29 2009 00:10 GMT
#2
good read
Moderator
Snet *
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States3573 Posts
December 29 2009 00:13 GMT
#3
I wasn't aware there was so much cheating back then, that's crazy.
tonight
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
United States11130 Posts
December 29 2009 00:17 GMT
#4
I was going to make some "Reason's reasons" joke, but I decided to let it go. Cheating and abusing an online ladder 5-6years ago is much different then cheating abusing an online ladder now. With everything we have to detect such things it's almost certainty that you'll be caught unlike back then when no replays or charts like we have now. I understand the desire to want to win and it's different for each person in terms of how much time they have, but deep down I would had to of though they knew they'd get caught. It still really sucks and I wish it didn't turn out that way because we're missing out on some really high caliber players.
if I come without a thing, then I come with all I need @tonightsend
Slugbreath
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden201 Posts
December 29 2009 00:18 GMT
#5
Great blog. I never knew how bad things used to be back in the "good ol' days". Thank you for taking your time to write this and to share a piece of StarCraft history with the rest of us.
Scaramanga
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Australia8090 Posts
December 29 2009 00:44 GMT
#6
Great post, Good thing i cheer for a god :D
Loda talked about the fun counter, it's AdmiralBulldog on his natures prophet
selboN
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States2523 Posts
December 29 2009 00:47 GMT
#7
excellent read, I'm completely ignorant to the early days of Starcraft
"That's what happens when you're using a mouse made out of glass!" -Tasteless (Referring to ZergBong)
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
December 29 2009 00:59 GMT
#8
Nice read.
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
Emlary
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
China3334 Posts
December 29 2009 01:05 GMT
#9
You finally did it ;o
No more SKT1, it's SKP2.
Tom Phoenix
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
1114 Posts
December 29 2009 01:12 GMT
#10
Very interesting read, especially in light of the fact that I posted a thread about KBK just earlier today. Thank you for sharing.
You and your "5 years of competitive RTS experience" can take a hike. - FrozenArbiter
SanguineToss
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada815 Posts
December 29 2009 01:14 GMT
#11
My favourite snorlax admin has spoken!
CharlieMurphy
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States22895 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-29 01:29:47
December 29 2009 01:15 GMT
#12
Like I said in the other thread it always surprises me how many people do NOT realize how much cheating and abuse goes on in sports, e-sports, whatever.
Competitive people by nature will do whatever it takes to win, if bending a few rules is what it takes - even if they don't want to do it; They will do it.

If the system is broken, so will the players be.


edit- You can't always blame the players for abuse. If you take professional sports (NFL) for example, they work because there are always a set amount of teams and a date and time when the teams play each other. They cannot dodge (maybe reschedule) so there will always be teams who suck cock (Red Skins) and must play teams who own (Colts).
The system is so fine tuned it eliminates a lot of possible outside game abusing.

With Starcraft free leagues (outside of korea's lan systems) we are ALWAYS on the honor system due to the nature of internet and the fact that you can play whoever you want, whenever you want. There is literally no way to 100% remove all hacks or forms of abuse. So in other words people should expect it. This is why online ladders and events have little to no weight in my eyes as far as player skills.

Also, We always hear about baseball/football players on steroids or growth hormones, boxers slipping illegal wraps or items in their gloves/ taking falls for money.
E sports just have different ways of bending rules and/or cheating.
..and then I would, ya know, check em'. (Aka SpoR)
Titusmaster6
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5937 Posts
December 29 2009 02:31 GMT
#13
Great blog. Definitely taught a new guy like me a lot of stuff i didn't know, and it was interesting to read Reason's post as well.
Shorts down shorts up, BOOM, just like that.
NSANE.hydra
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States644 Posts
December 29 2009 02:34 GMT
#14
Awesome post, I feel so informed. It's really amazing to find out how much abuse went on, my view of foreigners to koreans was pretty skewed until now I suppose.
"fuck mech...I could 4pool and as long as he's simply PLANNING on going mech, I'll lose"
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
December 29 2009 16:48 GMT
#15
Victor Goossens (aka Nazgul) was a noble fool for killing his chances before he even begun by refusing to abuse the GhemTV ladder, but I don’t know whether this means he’s more noble or more foolish.

Definitely more noble!

Good read =]
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Hamster1800
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States175 Posts
December 29 2009 17:13 GMT
#16
So instead of 15 ladder abusers, we have 15 more dodgers. Is that really better?
D is for Diamond, E is for Everything Else
Liquid`Nazgul
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
22427 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-29 17:20:35
December 29 2009 17:15 GMT
#17
Great read Wax. It is not a problem related to the foreign foreign scene I'm glad someone with a good sense of history stepped up to point this out.

TSL will be what KBK. GhemTV and WCG couldn't be.

On December 30 2009 02:13 Hamster1800 wrote:
So instead of 15 ladder abusers, we have 15 more dodgers. Is that really better?

Abuse and dodging are worlds apart.
Administrator
BaltA
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Norway849 Posts
December 29 2009 17:19 GMT
#18
good read!
ghostWriter
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3302 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-29 18:36:11
December 29 2009 18:09 GMT
#19
Dodging and abusing are very different; if you dodge, you're only cheating yourself but if you abuse, you're cheating other people. Then again, reading Reason's post makes me sympathize with him, if only a little. It makes sense that players would dodge known players, although playing against koreans would have probably been the smarter choice, as opposed to cheating. Either way, cheating should still be unacceptable, no matter what the situation was like in the past and everyone who got caught cheating deserve their punishment.
Sullifam
Patriot.dlk
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Sweden5462 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-29 18:15:04
December 29 2009 18:14 GMT
#20
Nice read. A side note to all of this; Imo most people arguing over this or that regarding the rules in TSL should remember the people behind it. It's the staff most of us find really amazing.They have put a lot of reasoning into this and every rule that needs to be followed has probably been discussed over and over by the men in red (and blue).

Criticism should be vented out in structured posts with real arguments and be posted in the correct thread.

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