EPTDodging is not a crime, but good honest players and spectators will certainly look down on you, just as if you are a player who cheeses 24/7.
Getting what you deserve - Page 3
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
Dodging is not a crime, but good honest players and spectators will certainly look down on you, just as if you are a player who cheeses 24/7. | ||
Waxangel
United States33423 Posts
Discussing whether dodging is as reprehensible as abusing may be something worth talking about in general, but for the purposes of TSL2 what matters was that concrete rules were laid down from the beginning that the players were aware of. The rules were enforced equally and thoroughly, so from a management standpoint the TSL2 ladder was fine. As for dodging, it's fun to entertain the idea of a system where you must accept any challenge from an opponent within a certain rank range, but there's no realistic way to enforce it. If you have any good ideas, you're welcome to talk about them in a relevant location (I suppose here is fine, but if you have a serious suggestion you might get more mileage out of it by making a new post). | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6637 Posts
On December 30 2009 12:15 Waxangel wrote: A ladder where you are allowed to pick and choose your opponents is definitely not the preferred way to run a large ranking system, but realistically it is the best system available. Something along the lines of Warcraft III's automatic match making system (with some tweaks to what range of players you are put against) would probably be ideal, but that's just not a technology that's available to the SC community That new Russian server has auto matchmaking: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108467 | ||
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NiteKat
United States146 Posts
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UFO
582 Posts
you do not punish. it is by no means fair and by doing so u r doing an injustice both to others and yourself. you take actions and sometimes 'punish' others to prevent - cheating and other unwanted behaviors and there is a difference between these 2 approaches. subtle but so important. think - are these rules fucking perfect ? its easy to speak if u fucking aren`t top player who has to suffer injustice because rules were imperfect, its easy to forget how much fucking effort he put into this game and how fucking frustrating it is to know that the player with far inferior skills - will qualify because he dodged his way and had more time . so you say he shouldn`t cheat anyways - yes its so easy and u would certainly do that in his position . even if u would - would you be fucking right ? it is basicly a fucking self-sacriface - to imperfect rules . isn`t making it as just as possible with all your effort - a more just choice ? I`m not saying that cheating is the way to even things up and the right choice - and most certainly not - even more certainly if u could predict results that others will create ( punisments ) because of their fucking false assumptions / lack of understanding for others / to some degree fail to look at the wholeness of situation . noone is at fault here. that is the truth. noone is to be blamed. it is to be fixed - or to make sure that the choice your already made is absolutely and only the best fucking possible one. and if u leave so much people in suffering then doesn`t it make logic that it might be not the best possible fucking choice. this is our resposibility that we miss so often. we take shortcuts and fail to achieve the best possible scenario for everyone. I`m aware it is very direct and sometimes might even sound rude - but that is what i believe in and i`m not kind of person to often speak his truth in a sophistaced way. i say it as it is. if anyone feels offended - it isn`t meant to. it is meant to give suggestions that u might use and that might help you improve your insight. do not live on false assumptions. they are subtle and insanely hard to even notice, sometimes we live years in ignorance without realizing it. look for what is the truth about what u need to do here. | ||
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UFO
582 Posts
before making a choice to ban me or anyone - think if it is your ego ambition ( because thats often the case , pure ego doesn`t like to be proved that it wasn`t right , no matter by who or what ) - or the best possible choice to make for everyone, without judging - with understanding. i`m not asking you to not ban me tho, do so if you still want to. | ||
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KOFgokuon
United States14896 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33423 Posts
On December 31 2009 00:14 UFO wrote: mb i went too far in using rude language etc but i think it is the better impression to leave and more directly shows what i mean, so i ll leave it like that - even tho it might get me banned. before making a choice to ban me or anyone - think if it is your ego ambition ( because thats often the case , pure ego doesn`t like to be proved that it wasn`t right , no matter by who or what ) - or the best possible choice to make for everyone, without judging - with understanding. i`m not asking you to not ban me tho, do so if you still want to. Far from it, I didn't really understand what you wrote ^_^ | ||
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kidd
United States2848 Posts
Either way it is hard to think of a solution that will cause people to play everyone and not have to smurf as well. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On December 31 2009 00:11 UFO wrote: u do not motherfucking judge and despite writing an exellent , insightful post you missed the essence of the essence that u r trying to grasp and share with these words. so it remains a fucking dishonesty and u simply make false assumptions. ( now some of u might feel offended or assume that it is retarded - and look on the rest of the txt through the prism of assumption - isntead of proving whats truth or whats not if something is not , be aware of it and change it if it so ) you do not punish. it is by no means fair and by doing so u r doing an injustice both to others and yourself. you take actions and sometimes 'punish' others to prevent - cheating and other unwanted behaviors and there is a difference between these 2 approaches. subtle but so important. think - are these rules fucking perfect ? its easy to speak if u fucking aren`t top player who has to suffer injustice because rules were imperfect, its easy to forget how much fucking effort he put into this game and how fucking frustrating it is to know that the player with far inferior skills - will qualify because he dodged his way and had more time . so you say he shouldn`t cheat anyways - yes its so easy and u would certainly do that in his position . even if u would - would you be fucking right ? it is basicly a fucking self-sacriface - to imperfect rules . isn`t making it as just as possible with all your effort - a more just choice ? I`m not saying that cheating is the way to even things up and the right choice - and most certainly not - even more certainly if u could predict results that others will create ( punisments ) because of their fucking false assumptions / lack of understanding for others / to some degree fail to look at the wholeness of situation . noone is at fault here. that is the truth. noone is to be blamed. it is to be fixed - or to make sure that the choice your already made is absolutely and only the best fucking possible one. and if u leave so much people in suffering then doesn`t it make logic that it might be not the best possible fucking choice. this is our resposibility that we miss so often. we take shortcuts and fail to achieve the best possible scenario for everyone. I`m aware it is very direct and sometimes might even sound rude - but that is what i believe in and i`m not kind of person to often speak his truth in a sophistaced way. i say it as it is. if anyone feels offended - it isn`t meant to. it is meant to give suggestions that u might use and that might help you improve your insight. do not live on false assumptions. they are subtle and insanely hard to even notice, sometimes we live years in ignorance without realizing it. look for what is the truth about what u need to do here. wat? Never has a nickname been so fitting. It seems like we come from different worlds. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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meathook
1289 Posts
After reading OP, F91's and Reason's posts explaining the reasons for abusing, it gave me a new perspective; a perspective rarely seen by a person who merely dabbles in SC. I have understanding for their actions, most of them were most likely being seriously dodged by the other players (just look at how Kwark et al was going about his laddering), and I am still undecided on how I feel about these ppl now. Will I be happy to see their replays after TSL2, will I cheer for them in future tournaments? I don't know, and it makes me uneasy. Thanks for a good read, history lesson, and some wise reflections. | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
WHITE-RA that dude's list is full of koreans .. white-ra admittedly had huge troubles getting games among the top of the ladder. who would want to play him? i know if i was A- and scrapping to get to A to solidify my rank in the top 48 I definitely wouldn't play him. those people didn't get there by being stupid, they got their by being REASONable. white-ra was forced to play the only people that would play him, the koreans. i'm sure that anyone who was being dodged could definitely have still gotten games where they wouldn't need to abuse. speaking of abuse, to CHEAT IN A over 20 thousand dollar tournament is completely unREASONable. it is showing blatant disrespect, and even the people who just helped their friends cheat are pretty low to do so. 1 win could make or break you. that ladder list was epically close. I understand the mindframe of abusing, and I sympathize with them - i really do - but I feel like that they took a risk, and it backfired. GG | ||
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hyst.eric.al
United States2332 Posts
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Hamster1800
United States175 Posts
On December 31 2009 04:30 StarBrift wrote: It's funny how the players whining about dodgers are themselves dodging koreans. If you truly care about winning the money and suceeding you will stay p late at night and play korean hours. And if you don't qualify you were never going to win any money anyway. If you can't beat B/B+ koreans how are you going to beat Ret, Idra or White_Ra in a BO5? I'm sorry. If the top 12 cutoff were A- and the top 48 cutoff were B+ I would agree with you, but that wasn't the case. Getting to A playing only TSL players and getting to A playing A- koreans are two very different things. Obviously the people who are capable of beating A- koreans consistently will have no problems making the top 12, but how many of those are there? Hell, how many of the actual top 12 do you think can beat A- koreans consistently? My guess is less than half. Also, on the statement that TSL had clearly defined rules...I'm not actually so sure. Personally, I couldn't find the rules (although I looked a bit after the start of the ladder). Did the rules say "no free wins, no smurfing, etc" or did it say "no ladder abuse." In some ways I feel that the case could be made that dodging is abusing the ladder, but obviously I don't expect any action to be taken in that direction. | ||
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DyEnasTy
United States3714 Posts
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DyEnasTy
United States3714 Posts
On December 31 2009 00:11 UFO wrote: u do not motherfucking judge and despite writing an exellent , insightful post you missed the essence of the essence that u r trying to grasp and share with these words. so it remains a fucking dishonesty and u simply make false assumptions. ( now some of u might feel offended or assume that it is retarded - and look on the rest of the txt through the prism of assumption - isntead of proving whats truth or whats not if something is not , be aware of it and change it if it so ) you do not punish. it is by no means fair and by doing so u r doing an injustice both to others and yourself. you take actions and sometimes 'punish' others to prevent - cheating and other unwanted behaviors and there is a difference between these 2 approaches. subtle but so important. think - are these rules fucking perfect ? its easy to speak if u fucking aren`t top player who has to suffer injustice because rules were imperfect, its easy to forget how much fucking effort he put into this game and how fucking frustrating it is to know that the player with far inferior skills - will qualify because he dodged his way and had more time . so you say he shouldn`t cheat anyways - yes its so easy and u would certainly do that in his position . even if u would - would you be fucking right ? it is basicly a fucking self-sacriface - to imperfect rules . isn`t making it as just as possible with all your effort - a more just choice ? I`m not saying that cheating is the way to even things up and the right choice - and most certainly not - even more certainly if u could predict results that others will create ( punisments ) because of their fucking false assumptions / lack of understanding for others / to some degree fail to look at the wholeness of situation . noone is at fault here. that is the truth. noone is to be blamed. it is to be fixed - or to make sure that the choice your already made is absolutely and only the best fucking possible one. and if u leave so much people in suffering then doesn`t it make logic that it might be not the best possible fucking choice. this is our resposibility that we miss so often. we take shortcuts and fail to achieve the best possible scenario for everyone. I`m aware it is very direct and sometimes might even sound rude - but that is what i believe in and i`m not kind of person to often speak his truth in a sophistaced way. i say it as it is. if anyone feels offended - it isn`t meant to. it is meant to give suggestions that u might use and that might help you improve your insight. do not live on false assumptions. they are subtle and insanely hard to even notice, sometimes we live years in ignorance without realizing it. look for what is the truth about what u need to do here. Wow dude, try a different word besides the one that starts with the letter F. When you say it so many times it loses its power. | ||
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KennigitsABaller
Barbados45 Posts
God, this is a great reason to love TL <3 | ||
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29 fps
United States5724 Posts
UFO guy loses a lot of respect just for using the F-bomb so unnecessarily. i dont think i know what he's saying, either | ||
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