EPTGetting what you deserve - Page 2
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G3nXsiS
United States656 Posts
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Hamster1800
United States175 Posts
In my eyes, dodging and abusing both get you a rank that you couldn't get normally. How is that worlds apart? | ||
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Amarxist
United States371 Posts
In any case, most of the people expected to qualify, did. The most known top foreigners were apparently able to find some people to play. | ||
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ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
On December 30 2009 05:30 Hamster1800 wrote: When you make the ladder a qualifier for a big tournament such as TSL, I cannot see that abuse and dodging are worlds apart. What was the qualifying rank for TSL? A-? What was qualifying for top 12? A? How many of the players do you think could get to the rank that they got to without dodging? In my eyes, dodging and abusing both get you a rank that you couldn't get normally. How is that worlds apart? Dodge all you want, you'll never make it to a- Even if they dodge, it means that they don't lose points that they might have lost. The points they do gain are legit. Abusing means that the points that they get are not legit. It's very different. | ||
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Amarxist
United States371 Posts
On December 30 2009 05:30 Hamster1800 wrote: When you make the ladder a qualifier for a big tournament such as TSL, I cannot see that abuse and dodging are worlds apart. What was the qualifying rank for TSL? A-? What was qualifying for top 12? A? How many of the players do you think could get to the rank that they got to without dodging? In my eyes, dodging and abusing both get you a rank that you couldn't get normally. How is that worlds apart? They're worlds apart because when you abuse a ladder; you're granting yourself wins. You're gaining points without any risk. When you dodge, you're simply denying yourself a chance to lose/gain points. Whether you're A- or A+. You have to play people who within your rating in order to actually gain rating. If you don't play, people who will--will surpass you because overall point inflation will increase everyone's overall rating. | ||
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Hamster1800
United States175 Posts
On December 30 2009 05:57 Amarxist wrote: They're worlds apart because when you abuse a ladder; you're granting yourself wins. You're gaining points without any risk. When you dodge, you're simply denying yourself a chance to lose/gain points. Whether you're A- or A+. You have to play people who within your rating in order to actually gain rating. If you don't play, people who will--will surpass you because overall point inflation will increase everyone's overall rating. Okay, let me put it this way. Suppose that we had a D rank tournament, okay? Now there is one D rank player that everyone thinks is better than them by enough that they would win most of the games. So the rest of the players in the tournament all dodge that player and the koreans on the ladder. Because of point inflation, these players will all hit A-. What is the "stronger" D rank player to do? Maybe he plays a lot and gets to C-. But regardless, none of the other weak players will be willing to play him and this guy won't have a chance against the C- koreans. Are you saying that that is fair? Basically replace D by B+ and you have TSL. | ||
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Amarxist
United States371 Posts
On December 30 2009 06:10 Hamster1800 wrote: Okay, let me put it this way. Suppose that we had a D rank tournament, okay? Now there is one D rank player that everyone thinks is better than them by enough that they would win most of the games. So the rest of the players in the tournament all dodge that player and the koreans on the ladder. Because of point inflation, these players will all hit A-. What is the "stronger" D rank player to do? Maybe he plays a lot and gets to C-. But regardless, none of the other weak players will be willing to play him and this guy won't have a chance against the C- koreans. Are you saying that that is fair? Basically replace D by B+ and you have TSL. What you described is a boycott to play a single player. You can't do anything about that. That is such an extreme example it's almost not valid. Although, it would be funny to see. That is very likely not to happen, unless everyone hates that one person. The reality is, people want points. The need to play in order to gain points. Ego's between humans will make people believe they are better then others, or the best. Because of this, known people will play other known people. The more games are played the more inflation takes place. Edit: If you're so adamant in believing what you say is correct. Then why have all the people expected to qualify have qualified? Using your theory as an example, a lot of these most known, dangerous top foreign players should have been dodged off the ladder. How was morrow able to increase his ranking to #2 in the last days of the ladder? TeamLiquid provided a big incentive to take top 12 in ladder by granting those with top 12 higher positions in the tournament rounds. This instills greed into people and they're willing to do anything (abuse, dodge, or not dodge and risk losing their current ranking for fear they may be overtaken). | ||
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Fzero
United States1503 Posts
I'm probably forgetting something basic, but just curious? | ||
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Amarxist
United States371 Posts
On December 30 2009 06:21 Fzero wrote: Can I just ask what the reasoning behind the smurf rule is? Is it so that people who watch the ladder will be more entertained? They could be forced to identify themselves after the ladder stage ended - and you could still track cheating in the same method (IP's, etc). I'm probably forgetting something basic, but just curious? There's a lot of reasons. Credibility is just one of them. But when it comes to a big event, people want to know the results, the drama, the happenings of what occured on the ladder (who played who). Last TSL, the name 'Mondragon' inspired much awe. He was already the most known foreign Zerg but when he showcased his monstrous ZvP record people were just that much more in shock. It created a lot of buzz. How did he do it? What were his secrets? People became fans, people became haters. People rallied in groups claiming Mondragon was the favorite to win TSL. It was an overall experience, names contain much value and add much to that experience. Taking away those names would greatly deflate that experience. There would be little reason to pay attention to TSL until the qualifier rounds started. That's not what tournaments are about now are they? They are for publicity, fame, glory and fortune. Basking in it all. | ||
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Fzero
United States1503 Posts
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Amarxist
United States371 Posts
At least at this point there's many shit talking examples between top foreigners that would have never made it to the light of day if everyone was "Anonymous". Publicity is the primary reason for hosting any tournament, and allowing smurfing wouldn't prevent any dodging as you say. Why is that? Because even if everyone were to smurf, the names would be instantly revealed with a thread on TL similar to "ICCUP Who is Who - Season 10" Where replays are analyzed and players smurfs are accurately derived. Even if such a thread weren't to exist, then players themselves could just memorize names of players doing well and dodge them. To sum it up, smurfing would only hurt TSL2's publicity. Not the ability for other people to dodge and abuse. | ||
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Hamster1800
United States175 Posts
On December 30 2009 06:20 Amarxist wrote: What you described is a boycott to play a single player. You can't do anything about that. That is such an extreme example it's almost not valid. Although, it would be funny to see. Yes you can. That's what ReasoN's point was. If smurfing weren't banned then a boycott of a single player wouldn't happen. Also, that's basically what DID happen to ret in the last days of TSL. The only reason he got back up to A was that someone who felt he had no chance of making top 48 (I forget who) decided to break the unspoken boycott. That is very likely not to happen, unless everyone hates that one person. The reality is, people want points. The need to play in order to gain points. Yes, that is true. But in a tournament as big as TSL, people can just go play against other TSL players. Like you say, people want points. So they will not play the people that appear stronger. Ego's between humans will make people believe they are better then others, or the best. Because of this, known people will play other known people. The more games are played the more inflation takes place. There is no inflation at A-. Also, people don't think in terms of "How do I create the most points to spread around the pool?" They think in terms of "How do I get myself the most points right now?" The answer to the former question is just play as many games as you can (below A-) while the answer to the latter question involves dodging big names. Edit: If you're so adamant in believing what you say is correct. Then why have all the people expected to qualify have qualified? Using your theory as an example, a lot of these most known, dangerous top foreign players should have been dodged off the ladder. How was morrow able to increase his ranking to #2 in the last days of the ladder? This only works for people in a position where the majority of the players feel they would have a losing record against them. That's why ret, for example, ended up below where most people probably think he belongs (#2). I'm not saying it's intense enough to knock top 12 caliber players out of top 48, but it's certainly enough to knock them out of top 12 (since you need A rank to get to top 12). TeamLiquid provided a big incentive to take top 12 in ladder by granting those with top 12 higher positions in the tournament rounds. This instills greed into people and they're willing to do anything (abuse, dodge, or not dodge and risk losing their current ranking for fear they may be overtaken). Besides the comments I inserted into your post in bold, consider that almost none of the people in top 48 are capable of having a winning record against A- koreans. So if they want to make top 12 (where they would need to be A), how are they going to do it? Playing against koreans is simply not going to work. So instead they play against each other. The people who lose out are people who are strong enough that everyone in TSL dodges, but not strong enough to win consistently against A- koreans. My example with a D rank tournament is only to make that window bigger. The window is smaller in TSL, yes, but it does exist. | ||
DivinO
United States4796 Posts
 Nazgul was being noble. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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SkytoM
Austria1137 Posts
i'm actually much more forgiveable to the abusers. | ||
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Heaven.ReV
Norway86 Posts
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Eiii
United States2566 Posts
Abusing shouldn't be tolerated, period. Dodging isn't ideal, but it's not something you can stop either. This is obviously the best course of action. | ||
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seppolevne
Canada1681 Posts
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Hamster1800
United States175 Posts
Also, I'm not sure smurfing was that easy. I have no idea how lenient TL was going to be on smurf requests. | ||
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hauton
Hong Kong743 Posts
I don't see "justice" being dealt out if nobody has addressed the dodging issue. Lesser evil or not, if you want people to actually pay attention to something like this there needs to be no tolerance for any cheating of any sort. I'm speaking completely as a casual SC/TL fan, but stuff like this doesn't make me think you guys are dealing with this situation judiciously or professionally - rather I find it kind of sloppy and unfair. | ||
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