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United States33158 Posts
So the news is out, several high profile players cheated in the TSL2 ladder and have been punished accordingly. While there seems to be a little bit of sympathy for the offending players, people seem to agree that it was the correct thing to take a hard stance against cheating. Crime and punishment is always a touchy issue, so I was a little bit surprised to see such a strong community consensus in denouncing the offenders as a very bad lot.
A few weeks ago the TL staff were discussing what would be an appropriate punishment for the players involved. As I went back and forth on my opinion, I began to think back on the major cheating scandals of the past.
Online preliminaries have long become unnecessary in Korean progaming. But in the early 2000’s there were no pro-teams to scout out promising players and bring them up through the ranks, so online tournaments were necessary to allow everyone a chance to prove their skill. To name a few notable examples, the World Cyber Games qualifiers for Korea relied in large part on an online ladder until KeSPA seeding was established, the now defunct television channel GhemTV offered four spots in its Starleague through an online tournament, and the $10,000 first place prize KBK Masters was played completely online through the finals.
Cheating was rampant. The lack of launchers or replays allowed maphack to be used almost completely unchecked, while the alarmingly incompetent tournament organizers were too lazy to enforce rules regarding win-trading and other forms of ladder abuse. When I asked Nazgul about his personal experiences during his stint as a pro-gamer in Korea, he said that without exaggeration 99% of the players on the GhemTV ladder were abusers and that he had faced his fair share of blatant map-hackers as well.
The shadiness of the Starcraft scene was relatively well-known from its early days, but it was not a big deal at the time as Starcraft was still considered to be just a silly, if immensely popular, video game. Even Lee Gi Suk (aka Ssamjang), the earliest face of Korean pro-gaming, may have been guilty of ladder abuse in the first Blizzard Brood War tournament which he then went on to win (there was no conclusive proof). The public was happy enough to have another poster-child for Korea’s burgeoning internet revolution.
Progaming would have to become established as a real professional sport before the issue of cheating would be examined in a more serious light. When WCG2004 came around, it was not just hardcore gamers, but fans of a cultural phenomenon that would hold the players under scrutiny.
To get right to the point, take a look at this list: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=16387.
Even excluding the most laughable offenders who recorded wins at a pace of one every six minutes, the majority of those players were probably abusers. Lim Gyuntae (aka Gyuntae), who was oddly enough, the only high profile player to be disqualified by WCG (I may be wrong on this point, please correct me if you remember), wrote a long post to apologize and describe the ridiculous situation on the ladder. To quote him in part:
“You could not qualify for this tournament without abusing, and every progamer knew this from the start. If I stay honorable and don’t qualify, no one’s going to come out and congratulate me for that. You think anyone abuses because they like it? So I should think about the fans and stop abusing and just fail to qualify? Unless you’re a god, you can’t get in the top 15 without abusing. How are you supposed to get points when no one will play you… … there’s no one in the top 50 who hasn’t abused.”
Gyuntae’s statement was one of frustration. His plan, like that of many others, had been to play multiple accounts into the top fifty through regular play so he would be able to trade wins between accounts for the final push. It required a massive amount of games to be played during the short online-ladder period, and a high enough level of base skill to rank up the multiple accounts. With all the players aware of this strategy, the WCG ladder became a perversely intense competition in cheating where all the original rules had been subverted. The comical high point of Gyuntae’s post was where he asked people to at least recognize the insane amount of effort all the players had to exert in order to cheat the system.
At first, it was a shock. There was much denouncing, mockery, and talk in general. Looking back through pro-gaming community posts from that time, people were frequently calling Hong Jin Ho (aka Yellow) “Abuser Yellow” with derision. However, talk was as far as it went. KeSPA (then still the KPGA) was as incompetent then as it is now and did absolutely nothing. For all their momentary anger, the fans were at a loss for any kind of concrete action to take. A boycott of progaming may have been the only meaningful move to make, but no one was really willing to give up such an entertaining product. A few months later, Proleague continued to be amazing, Yellow was getting bunker rushed (three times) by Boxer in one of the greatest OSLs ever, and life moved on.
I went through the TSL2 disqualifications thread and came across Reason’s post.
+ Show Spoiler +On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)
F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded.
In some ways, it reminds me of Gyuntae’s post. An online ladder will always have intrinsic flaws revolving around dodging and the difficulty of getting games near the top. Gyuntae mentioned as well, “How are you supposed to win when no one will play you?”
The major difference however, is that Gyuntae knew everyone was cheating, and everyone knew that he was cheating as well. Without oversight, the system fell apart, and the players ended up establishing their own corrupt system. ReasoN and the TSL2 cheaters, on the other hand, were attempting to slyly gain an unfair advantage over their peers in a tightly overseen ladder.
The case of the TSL2 cheaters was clear to me, they were quite obviously in the wrong and deserved whatever punishment they received. The more pressing dilemma I was presented with was what was I to think of those Korean pros now, who got away clean in 2004, and why couldn’t I remember how I had felt five years ago?
I realized that I had been as torn then as I am now, and all I had done was to defer judgment for so long that I simply forgot.
It’s no easier now, having to make moral judgments about those I admire. Perhaps it is even harder in the present, because the names Anytime and Iris have acquired so much meaning over time. I recognize that an unregulated ladder is not a credible ladder, but does that mean it does not deserve the least of the players’ respect? Victor Goossens (aka Nazgul) was a noble fool for killing his chances before he even begun by refusing to abuse the GhemTV ladder, but I don’t know whether this means he’s more noble or more foolish.
In the end, I guess my morals are as malleable as anyone’s. It hurts me to say it, but if you were a fan of any early progamer, there’s a good chance that you were cheering for a cheater. It really hurts, but I can live with it.
At least, it takes the sting out of every Air Force Ace loss. Maybe they deserve it.
 
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Norway28584 Posts
good read 
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Snet
United States3573 Posts
I wasn't aware there was so much cheating back then, that's crazy.
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I was going to make some "Reason's reasons" joke, but I decided to let it go. Cheating and abusing an online ladder 5-6years ago is much different then cheating abusing an online ladder now. With everything we have to detect such things it's almost certainty that you'll be caught unlike back then when no replays or charts like we have now. I understand the desire to want to win and it's different for each person in terms of how much time they have, but deep down I would had to of though they knew they'd get caught. It still really sucks and I wish it didn't turn out that way because we're missing out on some really high caliber players.
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Great blog. I never knew how bad things used to be back in the "good ol' days". Thank you for taking your time to write this and to share a piece of StarCraft history with the rest of us.
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Great post, Good thing i cheer for a god :D
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excellent read, I'm completely ignorant to the early days of Starcraft
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China3334 Posts
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Very interesting read, especially in light of the fact that I posted a thread about KBK just earlier today. Thank you for sharing.
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My favourite snorlax admin has spoken!
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Like I said in the other thread it always surprises me how many people do NOT realize how much cheating and abuse goes on in sports, e-sports, whatever.
Competitive people by nature will do whatever it takes to win, if bending a few rules is what it takes - even if they don't want to do it; They will do it.
If the system is broken, so will the players be.
edit- You can't always blame the players for abuse. If you take professional sports (NFL) for example, they work because there are always a set amount of teams and a date and time when the teams play each other. They cannot dodge (maybe reschedule) so there will always be teams who suck cock (Red Skins) and must play teams who own (Colts).
The system is so fine tuned it eliminates a lot of possible outside game abusing.
With Starcraft free leagues (outside of korea's lan systems) we are ALWAYS on the honor system due to the nature of internet and the fact that you can play whoever you want, whenever you want. There is literally no way to 100% remove all hacks or forms of abuse. So in other words people should expect it. This is why online ladders and events have little to no weight in my eyes as far as player skills.
Also, We always hear about baseball/football players on steroids or growth hormones, boxers slipping illegal wraps or items in their gloves/ taking falls for money.
E sports just have different ways of bending rules and/or cheating.
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Great blog. Definitely taught a new guy like me a lot of stuff i didn't know, and it was interesting to read Reason's post as well.
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Awesome post, I feel so informed. It's really amazing to find out how much abuse went on, my view of foreigners to koreans was pretty skewed until now I suppose.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Victor Goossens (aka Nazgul) was a noble fool for killing his chances before he even begun by refusing to abuse the GhemTV ladder, but I don’t know whether this means he’s more noble or more foolish.
Definitely more noble!
Good read =]
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So instead of 15 ladder abusers, we have 15 more dodgers. Is that really better?
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Great read Wax. It is not a problem related to the foreign foreign scene I'm glad someone with a good sense of history stepped up to point this out.
TSL will be what KBK. GhemTV and WCG couldn't be.
On December 30 2009 02:13 Hamster1800 wrote:
So instead of 15 ladder abusers, we have 15 more dodgers. Is that really better?
Abuse and dodging are worlds apart.
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Dodging and abusing are very different; if you dodge, you're only cheating yourself but if you abuse, you're cheating other people. Then again, reading Reason's post makes me sympathize with him, if only a little. It makes sense that players would dodge known players, although playing against koreans would have probably been the smarter choice, as opposed to cheating. Either way, cheating should still be unacceptable, no matter what the situation was like in the past and everyone who got caught cheating deserve their punishment.
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Nice read. A side note to all of this; Imo most people arguing over this or that regarding the rules in TSL should remember the people behind it. It's the staff most of us find really amazing.They have put a lot of reasoning into this and every rule that needs to be followed has probably been discussed over and over by the men in red (and blue).
Criticism should be vented out in structured posts with real arguments and be posted in the correct thread.
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Wow this is a very very good post. It shows alot of maturity from you and its nice to see things from a different point of view. Im suprised cheating was so common back then even in Korea where everyone is supposedly noble and well manered. Maybe this is why online play diminished in Korea.
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When you make the ladder a qualifier for a big tournament such as TSL, I cannot see that abuse and dodging are worlds apart. What was the qualifying rank for TSL? A-? What was qualifying for top 12? A? How many of the players do you think could get to the rank that they got to without dodging?
In my eyes, dodging and abusing both get you a rank that you couldn't get normally. How is that worlds apart?
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Reason's post makes me laugh. He's writing complaints about TSL being a dodging ladder then citing the fact that playing Koreans wouldn't be fair. How can you complain about people dodging you then dodge people who are willing to play you (Koreans).
In any case, most of the people expected to qualify, did. The most known top foreigners were apparently able to find some people to play.
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On December 30 2009 05:30 Hamster1800 wrote:
When you make the ladder a qualifier for a big tournament such as TSL, I cannot see that abuse and dodging are worlds apart. What was the qualifying rank for TSL? A-? What was qualifying for top 12? A? How many of the players do you think could get to the rank that they got to without dodging?
In my eyes, dodging and abusing both get you a rank that you couldn't get normally. How is that worlds apart?
Dodge all you want, you'll never make it to a-
Even if they dodge, it means that they don't lose points that they might have lost. The points they do gain are legit. Abusing means that the points that they get are not legit. It's very different.
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On December 30 2009 05:30 Hamster1800 wrote:
When you make the ladder a qualifier for a big tournament such as TSL, I cannot see that abuse and dodging are worlds apart. What was the qualifying rank for TSL? A-? What was qualifying for top 12? A? How many of the players do you think could get to the rank that they got to without dodging?
In my eyes, dodging and abusing both get you a rank that you couldn't get normally. How is that worlds apart?
They're worlds apart because when you abuse a ladder; you're granting yourself wins. You're gaining points without any risk.
When you dodge, you're simply denying yourself a chance to lose/gain points. Whether you're A- or A+. You have to play people who within your rating in order to actually gain rating. If you don't play, people who will--will surpass you because overall point inflation will increase everyone's overall rating.
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On December 30 2009 05:57 Amarxist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2009 05:30 Hamster1800 wrote:
When you make the ladder a qualifier for a big tournament such as TSL, I cannot see that abuse and dodging are worlds apart. What was the qualifying rank for TSL? A-? What was qualifying for top 12? A? How many of the players do you think could get to the rank that they got to without dodging?
In my eyes, dodging and abusing both get you a rank that you couldn't get normally. How is that worlds apart? They're worlds apart because when you abuse a ladder; you're granting yourself wins. You're gaining points without any risk. When you dodge, you're simply denying yourself a chance to lose/gain points. Whether you're A- or A+. You have to play people who within your rating in order to actually gain rating. If you don't play, people who will--will surpass you because overall point inflation will increase everyone's overall rating.
Okay, let me put it this way. Suppose that we had a D rank tournament, okay? Now there is one D rank player that everyone thinks is better than them by enough that they would win most of the games. So the rest of the players in the tournament all dodge that player and the koreans on the ladder. Because of point inflation, these players will all hit A-. What is the "stronger" D rank player to do? Maybe he plays a lot and gets to C-. But regardless, none of the other weak players will be willing to play him and this guy won't have a chance against the C- koreans. Are you saying that that is fair?
Basically replace D by B+ and you have TSL.
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On December 30 2009 06:10 Hamster1800 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2009 05:57 Amarxist wrote:On December 30 2009 05:30 Hamster1800 wrote:
When you make the ladder a qualifier for a big tournament such as TSL, I cannot see that abuse and dodging are worlds apart. What was the qualifying rank for TSL? A-? What was qualifying for top 12? A? How many of the players do you think could get to the rank that they got to without dodging?
In my eyes, dodging and abusing both get you a rank that you couldn't get normally. How is that worlds apart? They're worlds apart because when you abuse a ladder; you're granting yourself wins. You're gaining points without any risk. When you dodge, you're simply denying yourself a chance to lose/gain points. Whether you're A- or A+. You have to play people who within your rating in order to actually gain rating. If you don't play, people who will--will surpass you because overall point inflation will increase everyone's overall rating. Okay, let me put it this way. Suppose that we had a D rank tournament, okay? Now there is one D rank player that everyone thinks is better than them by enough that they would win most of the games. So the rest of the players in the tournament all dodge that player and the koreans on the ladder. Because of point inflation, these players will all hit A-. What is the "stronger" D rank player to do? Maybe he plays a lot and gets to C-. But regardless, none of the other weak players will be willing to play him and this guy won't have a chance against the C- koreans. Are you saying that that is fair? Basically replace D by B+ and you have TSL.
What you described is a boycott to play a single player. You can't do anything about that. That is such an extreme example it's almost not valid. Although, it would be funny to see.
That is very likely not to happen, unless everyone hates that one person. The reality is, people want points. The need to play in order to gain points.
Ego's between humans will make people believe they are better then others, or the best. Because of this, known people will play other known people. The more games are played the more inflation takes place.
Edit: If you're so adamant in believing what you say is correct. Then why have all the people expected to qualify have qualified? Using your theory as an example, a lot of these most known, dangerous top foreign players should have been dodged off the ladder. How was morrow able to increase his ranking to #2 in the last days of the ladder?
TeamLiquid provided a big incentive to take top 12 in ladder by granting those with top 12 higher positions in the tournament rounds. This instills greed into people and they're willing to do anything (abuse, dodge, or not dodge and risk losing their current ranking for fear they may be overtaken).
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Can I just ask what the reasoning behind the smurf rule is? Is it so that people who watch the ladder will be more entertained? They could be forced to identify themselves after the ladder stage ended - and you could still track cheating in the same method (IP's, etc).
I'm probably forgetting something basic, but just curious?
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On December 30 2009 06:21 Fzero wrote:
Can I just ask what the reasoning behind the smurf rule is? Is it so that people who watch the ladder will be more entertained? They could be forced to identify themselves after the ladder stage ended - and you could still track cheating in the same method (IP's, etc).
I'm probably forgetting something basic, but just curious?
There's a lot of reasons. Credibility is just one of them. But when it comes to a big event, people want to know the results, the drama, the happenings of what occured on the ladder (who played who). Last TSL, the name 'Mondragon' inspired much awe. He was already the most known foreign Zerg but when he showcased his monstrous ZvP record people were just that much more in shock. It created a lot of buzz. How did he do it? What were his secrets?
People became fans, people became haters. People rallied in groups claiming Mondragon was the favorite to win TSL. It was an overall experience, names contain much value and add much to that experience.
Taking away those names would greatly deflate that experience. There would be little reason to pay attention to TSL until the qualifier rounds started. That's not what tournaments are about now are they? They are for publicity, fame, glory and fortune. Basking in it all.
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I don't know.. I would think you would want the best 48 players to qualify. You sacrifice some quality in the final stages and the real tournament is all about the bracket stage (Ro16 onward) just like any tournament. Qualifiers are always relatively boring and should not be the focus in a tournament. I'll just make clear that I'm 100% against cheating, but I don't think the above post is a good reason to not allow smurfing.
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If qualifiers are boring to you now, they would be abysmally boring without any real names to back it up.
At least at this point there's many shit talking examples between top foreigners that would have never made it to the light of day if everyone was "Anonymous". Publicity is the primary reason for hosting any tournament, and allowing smurfing wouldn't prevent any dodging as you say.
Why is that? Because even if everyone were to smurf, the names would be instantly revealed with a thread on TL similar to "ICCUP Who is Who - Season 10" Where replays are analyzed and players smurfs are accurately derived.
Even if such a thread weren't to exist, then players themselves could just memorize names of players doing well and dodge them.
To sum it up, smurfing would only hurt TSL2's publicity. Not the ability for other people to dodge and abuse.
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On December 30 2009 06:20 Amarxist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2009 06:10 Hamster1800 wrote:On December 30 2009 05:57 Amarxist wrote:On December 30 2009 05:30 Hamster1800 wrote:
When you make the ladder a qualifier for a big tournament such as TSL, I cannot see that abuse and dodging are worlds apart. What was the qualifying rank for TSL? A-? What was qualifying for top 12? A? How many of the players do you think could get to the rank that they got to without dodging?
In my eyes, dodging and abusing both get you a rank that you couldn't get normally. How is that worlds apart? They're worlds apart because when you abuse a ladder; you're granting yourself wins. You're gaining points without any risk. When you dodge, you're simply denying yourself a chance to lose/gain points. Whether you're A- or A+. You have to play people who within your rating in order to actually gain rating. If you don't play, people who will--will surpass you because overall point inflation will increase everyone's overall rating. Okay, let me put it this way. Suppose that we had a D rank tournament, okay? Now there is one D rank player that everyone thinks is better than them by enough that they would win most of the games. So the rest of the players in the tournament all dodge that player and the koreans on the ladder. Because of point inflation, these players will all hit A-. What is the "stronger" D rank player to do? Maybe he plays a lot and gets to C-. But regardless, none of the other weak players will be willing to play him and this guy won't have a chance against the C- koreans. Are you saying that that is fair? Basically replace D by B+ and you have TSL. What you described is a boycott to play a single player. You can't do anything about that. That is such an extreme example it's almost not valid. Although, it would be funny to see. Yes you can. That's what ReasoN's point was. If smurfing weren't banned then a boycott of a single player wouldn't happen. Also, that's basically what DID happen to ret in the last days of TSL. The only reason he got back up to A was that someone who felt he had no chance of making top 48 (I forget who) decided to break the unspoken boycott.That is very likely not to happen, unless everyone hates that one person. The reality is, people want points. The need to play in order to gain points. Yes, that is true. But in a tournament as big as TSL, people can just go play against other TSL players. Like you say, people want points. So they will not play the people that appear stronger.Ego's between humans will make people believe they are better then others, or the best. Because of this, known people will play other known people. The more games are played the more inflation takes place. There is no inflation at A-. Also, people don't think in terms of "How do I create the most points to spread around the pool?" They think in terms of "How do I get myself the most points right now?" The answer to the former question is just play as many games as you can (below A-) while the answer to the latter question involves dodging big names.Edit: If you're so adamant in believing what you say is correct. Then why have all the people expected to qualify have qualified? Using your theory as an example, a lot of these most known, dangerous top foreign players should have been dodged off the ladder. How was morrow able to increase his ranking to #2 in the last days of the ladder? This only works for people in a position where the majority of the players feel they would have a losing record against them. That's why ret, for example, ended up below where most people probably think he belongs (#2). I'm not saying it's intense enough to knock top 12 caliber players out of top 48, but it's certainly enough to knock them out of top 12 (since you need A rank to get to top 12).TeamLiquid provided a big incentive to take top 12 in ladder by granting those with top 12 higher positions in the tournament rounds. This instills greed into people and they're willing to do anything (abuse, dodge, or not dodge and risk losing their current ranking for fear they may be overtaken).
Besides the comments I inserted into your post in bold, consider that almost none of the people in top 48 are capable of having a winning record against A- koreans. So if they want to make top 12 (where they would need to be A), how are they going to do it? Playing against koreans is simply not going to work. So instead they play against each other. The people who lose out are people who are strong enough that everyone in TSL dodges, but not strong enough to win consistently against A- koreans. My example with a D rank tournament is only to make that window bigger. The window is smaller in TSL, yes, but it does exist.
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United States4796 Posts
Excellent read. And  Nazgul was being noble.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
really nice writeup. I agree pretty fully.. although I think the gyuntae / reason comparison is a little skewed. Gyuntae was complaining that qualification would be impossible without abuse. That wasn't the case with reason.. he was just greedy and was complaining that top 12 was impossible without abuse which even then is an exaggeration.
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this post did the exact opposite of what its supposed to do with me.
i'm actually much more forgiveable to the abusers.
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Really informative and well written post, thank you for a great read
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I don't see why there's even a debate going on over whether it's better to 'allow' dodgers or abusers. If you allow abusing then you get exactly the situation described in the OP- a ladder that's more about abusing than playing. You can't make the dodging problem just go away by allowing smurfs, and that'd really make the ladder stage much less interesting to follow which wouldn't be any fun. Hell, quite a few abusers would've made it into TSL even if they had just NOT ABUSED.
Abusing shouldn't be tolerated, period. Dodging isn't ideal, but it's not something you can stop either. This is obviously the best course of action.
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Besides, if you were worried people would dodge you, you could smurf. All you had to do was tell TL about your situation and they would allow it.
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There's no debate about whether to allow abusers. Obviously it is wrong. The problem is that people are saying that dodging is perfectly acceptable, when it ruins the ladder just as much as abusing. I'm not saying that the rules should be different, but I definitely don't have any more respect for the dodgers that took the 15 slots than the abusers that freed them.
Also, I'm not sure smurfing was that easy. I have no idea how lenient TL was going to be on smurf requests.
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How can TSL be a premiere online competition if people are going to be cheating the system, whether it's by abusing or dodging?
I don't see "justice" being dealt out if nobody has addressed the dodging issue. Lesser evil or not, if you want people to actually pay attention to something like this there needs to be no tolerance for any cheating of any sort.
I'm speaking completely as a casual SC/TL fan, but stuff like this doesn't make me think you guys are dealing with this situation judiciously or professionally - rather I find it kind of sloppy and unfair.
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I don't see a good way of punishing dodgers other than knowing that they are almost certainly going to get raped by truly skilled players who played mostly Koreans during the ladder. Expect them to play cheesy.
Dodging is not a crime, but good honest players and spectators will certainly look down on you, just as if you are a player who cheeses 24/7.
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United States33158 Posts
A ladder where you are allowed to pick and choose your opponents is definitely not the preferred way to run a large ranking system, but realistically it is the best system available. Something along the lines of Warcraft III's automatic match making system (with some tweaks to what range of players you are put against) would probably be ideal, but that's just not a technology that's available to the SC community.
Discussing whether dodging is as reprehensible as abusing may be something worth talking about in general, but for the purposes of TSL2 what matters was that concrete rules were laid down from the beginning that the players were aware of. The rules were enforced equally and thoroughly, so from a management standpoint the TSL2 ladder was fine.
As for dodging, it's fun to entertain the idea of a system where you must accept any challenge from an opponent within a certain rank range, but there's no realistic way to enforce it. If you have any good ideas, you're welcome to talk about them in a relevant location (I suppose here is fine, but if you have a serious suggestion you might get more mileage out of it by making a new post).
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On December 30 2009 12:15 Waxangel wrote:
A ladder where you are allowed to pick and choose your opponents is definitely not the preferred way to run a large ranking system, but realistically it is the best system available. Something along the lines of Warcraft III's automatic match making system (with some tweaks to what range of players you are put against) would probably be ideal, but that's just not a technology that's available to the SC community
That new Russian server has auto matchmaking: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108467
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[EDIT]Aw boo, ninjaed by the post above me. 
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u do not motherfucking judge and despite writing an exellent , insightful post you missed the essence of the essence that u r trying to grasp and share with these words. so it remains a fucking dishonesty and u simply make false assumptions. ( now some of u might feel offended or assume that it is retarded - and look on the rest of the txt through the prism of assumption - isntead of proving whats truth or whats not if something is not , be aware of it and change it if it so )
you do not punish. it is by no means fair and by doing so u r doing an injustice both to others and yourself. you take actions and sometimes 'punish' others to prevent - cheating and other unwanted behaviors and there is a difference between these 2 approaches. subtle but so important.
think - are these rules fucking perfect ? its easy to speak if u fucking aren`t top player who has to suffer injustice because rules were imperfect, its easy to forget how much fucking effort he put into this game and how fucking frustrating it is to know that the player with far inferior skills - will qualify because he dodged his way and had more time . so you say he shouldn`t cheat anyways - yes its so easy and u would certainly do that in his position . even if u would - would you be fucking right ? it is basicly a fucking self-sacriface - to imperfect rules .
isn`t making it as just as possible with all your effort - a more just choice ? I`m not saying that cheating is the way to even things up and the right choice - and most certainly not - even more certainly if u could predict results that others will create ( punisments ) because of their fucking false assumptions / lack of understanding for others / to some degree fail to look at the wholeness of situation .
noone is at fault here. that is the truth. noone is to be blamed. it is to be fixed - or to make sure that the choice your already made is absolutely and only the best fucking possible one. and if u leave so much people in suffering then doesn`t it make logic that it might be not the best possible fucking choice. this is our resposibility that we miss so often. we take shortcuts and fail to achieve the best possible scenario for everyone.
I`m aware it is very direct and sometimes might even sound rude - but that is what i believe in and i`m not kind of person to often speak his truth in a sophistaced way. i say it as it is. if anyone feels offended - it isn`t meant to. it is meant to give suggestions that u might use and that might help you improve your insight.
do not live on false assumptions. they are subtle and insanely hard to even notice, sometimes we live years in ignorance without realizing it. look for what is the truth about what u need to do here.
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mb i went too far in using rude language etc but i think it is the better impression to leave and more directly shows what i mean, so i ll leave it like that - even tho it might get me banned.
before making a choice to ban me or anyone - think if it is your ego ambition ( because thats often the case , pure ego doesn`t like to be proved that it wasn`t right , no matter by who or what ) - or the best possible choice to make for everyone, without judging - with understanding.
i`m not asking you to not ban me tho, do so if you still want to.
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United States33158 Posts
On December 31 2009 00:14 UFO wrote:
mb i went too far in using rude language etc but i think it is the better impression to leave and more directly shows what i mean, so i ll leave it like that - even tho it might get me banned.
before making a choice to ban me or anyone - think if it is your ego ambition ( because thats often the case , pure ego doesn`t like to be proved that it wasn`t right , no matter by who or what ) - or the best possible choice to make for everyone, without judging - with understanding.
i`m not asking you to not ban me tho, do so if you still want to.
Far from it, I didn't really understand what you wrote ^_^
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A very very intersting read. It's kind of understandable what reason is implying when he talks about the dodgers and being unable to find a good game if you have great stats. I wonder how much that would have changed had the prize pool been unanounced or better yet underanounced.
Either way it is hard to think of a solution that will cause people to play everyone and not have to smurf as well.
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It's funny how the players whining about dodgers are themselves dodging koreans. If you truly care about winning the money and suceeding you will stay p late at night and play korean hours. And if you don't qualify you were never going to win any money anyway. If you can't beat B/B+ koreans how are you going to beat Ret, Idra or White_Ra in a BO5?
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On December 31 2009 00:11 UFO wrote:
u do not motherfucking judge and despite writing an exellent , insightful post you missed the essence of the essence that u r trying to grasp and share with these words. so it remains a fucking dishonesty and u simply make false assumptions. ( now some of u might feel offended or assume that it is retarded - and look on the rest of the txt through the prism of assumption - isntead of proving whats truth or whats not if something is not , be aware of it and change it if it so )
you do not punish. it is by no means fair and by doing so u r doing an injustice both to others and yourself. you take actions and sometimes 'punish' others to prevent - cheating and other unwanted behaviors and there is a difference between these 2 approaches. subtle but so important.
think - are these rules fucking perfect ? its easy to speak if u fucking aren`t top player who has to suffer injustice because rules were imperfect, its easy to forget how much fucking effort he put into this game and how fucking frustrating it is to know that the player with far inferior skills - will qualify because he dodged his way and had more time . so you say he shouldn`t cheat anyways - yes its so easy and u would certainly do that in his position . even if u would - would you be fucking right ? it is basicly a fucking self-sacriface - to imperfect rules .
isn`t making it as just as possible with all your effort - a more just choice ? I`m not saying that cheating is the way to even things up and the right choice - and most certainly not - even more certainly if u could predict results that others will create ( punisments ) because of their fucking false assumptions / lack of understanding for others / to some degree fail to look at the wholeness of situation .
noone is at fault here. that is the truth. noone is to be blamed. it is to be fixed - or to make sure that the choice your already made is absolutely and only the best fucking possible one. and if u leave so much people in suffering then doesn`t it make logic that it might be not the best possible fucking choice. this is our resposibility that we miss so often. we take shortcuts and fail to achieve the best possible scenario for everyone.
I`m aware it is very direct and sometimes might even sound rude - but that is what i believe in and i`m not kind of person to often speak his truth in a sophistaced way. i say it as it is. if anyone feels offended - it isn`t meant to. it is meant to give suggestions that u might use and that might help you improve your insight.
do not live on false assumptions. they are subtle and insanely hard to even notice, sometimes we live years in ignorance without realizing it. look for what is the truth about what u need to do here.
wat? Never has a nickname been so fitting. It seems like we come from different worlds.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
UFO don't worry. Waxangel only bans if you disagree with him about football.
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As you (OP) were, I am torn in my feelings towards the ppl who got caught abusing this TSL. Many of them are ppl whom I have looked up to and respected deeply in my time as a part of the SC community.
After reading OP, F91's and Reason's posts explaining the reasons for abusing, it gave me a new perspective; a perspective rarely seen by a person who merely dabbles in SC.
I have understanding for their actions, most of them were most likely being seriously dodged by the other players (just look at how Kwark et al was going about his laddering), and I am still undecided on how I feel about these ppl now. Will I be happy to see their replays after TSL2, will I cheer for them in future tournaments? I don't know, and it makes me uneasy.
Thanks for a good read, history lesson, and some wise reflections.
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i hate to disagree with reason, but i have a reason
WHITE-RA
that dude's list is full of koreans ..
white-ra admittedly had huge troubles getting games among the top of the ladder. who would want to play him? i know if i was A- and scrapping to get to A to solidify my rank in the top 48 I definitely wouldn't play him. those people didn't get there by being stupid, they got their by being REASONable. white-ra was forced to play the only people that would play him, the koreans. i'm sure that anyone who was being dodged could definitely have still gotten games where they wouldn't need to abuse.
speaking of abuse, to CHEAT IN A over 20 thousand dollar tournament is completely unREASONable. it is showing blatant disrespect, and even the people who just helped their friends cheat are pretty low to do so. 1 win could make or break you. that ladder list was epically close. I understand the mindframe of abusing, and I sympathize with them - i really do - but I feel like that they took a risk, and it backfired.
GG
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On December 31 2009 04:30 StarBrift wrote:
It's funny how the players whining about dodgers are themselves dodging koreans. If you truly care about winning the money and suceeding you will stay p late at night and play korean hours. And if you don't qualify you were never going to win any money anyway. If you can't beat B/B+ koreans how are you going to beat Ret, Idra or White_Ra in a BO5?
I'm sorry. If the top 12 cutoff were A- and the top 48 cutoff were B+ I would agree with you, but that wasn't the case. Getting to A playing only TSL players and getting to A playing A- koreans are two very different things. Obviously the people who are capable of beating A- koreans consistently will have no problems making the top 12, but how many of those are there? Hell, how many of the actual top 12 do you think can beat A- koreans consistently? My guess is less than half.
Also, on the statement that TSL had clearly defined rules...I'm not actually so sure. Personally, I couldn't find the rules (although I looked a bit after the start of the ladder). Did the rules say "no free wins, no smurfing, etc" or did it say "no ladder abuse." In some ways I feel that the case could be made that dodging is abusing the ladder, but obviously I don't expect any action to be taken in that direction.
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Wow, really nice article, rated 5/5.
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On December 31 2009 00:11 UFO wrote:
u do not motherfucking judge and despite writing an exellent , insightful post you missed the essence of the essence that u r trying to grasp and share with these words. so it remains a fucking dishonesty and u simply make false assumptions. ( now some of u might feel offended or assume that it is retarded - and look on the rest of the txt through the prism of assumption - isntead of proving whats truth or whats not if something is not , be aware of it and change it if it so )
you do not punish. it is by no means fair and by doing so u r doing an injustice both to others and yourself. you take actions and sometimes 'punish' others to prevent - cheating and other unwanted behaviors and there is a difference between these 2 approaches. subtle but so important.
think - are these rules fucking perfect ? its easy to speak if u fucking aren`t top player who has to suffer injustice because rules were imperfect, its easy to forget how much fucking effort he put into this game and how fucking frustrating it is to know that the player with far inferior skills - will qualify because he dodged his way and had more time . so you say he shouldn`t cheat anyways - yes its so easy and u would certainly do that in his position . even if u would - would you be fucking right ? it is basicly a fucking self-sacriface - to imperfect rules .
isn`t making it as just as possible with all your effort - a more just choice ? I`m not saying that cheating is the way to even things up and the right choice - and most certainly not - even more certainly if u could predict results that others will create ( punisments ) because of their fucking false assumptions / lack of understanding for others / to some degree fail to look at the wholeness of situation .
noone is at fault here. that is the truth. noone is to be blamed. it is to be fixed - or to make sure that the choice your already made is absolutely and only the best fucking possible one. and if u leave so much people in suffering then doesn`t it make logic that it might be not the best possible fucking choice. this is our resposibility that we miss so often. we take shortcuts and fail to achieve the best possible scenario for everyone.
I`m aware it is very direct and sometimes might even sound rude - but that is what i believe in and i`m not kind of person to often speak his truth in a sophistaced way. i say it as it is. if anyone feels offended - it isn`t meant to. it is meant to give suggestions that u might use and that might help you improve your insight.
do not live on false assumptions. they are subtle and insanely hard to even notice, sometimes we live years in ignorance without realizing it. look for what is the truth about what u need to do here.
Wow dude, try a different word besides the one that starts with the letter F. When you say it so many times it loses its power.
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Very great read, and I'm loving all the responses.
God, this is a great reason to love TL <3
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great read.
UFO guy loses a lot of respect just for using the F-bomb so unnecessarily. i dont think i know what he's saying, either
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People like White-RA who play versus anyone and still makes it. Mad props for that.
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Thanks for clearing things up.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
so true wax
most human beings are inclined to not take the high road and try and gain edges when they can, especially if they feel there is no way people will know (which all comes back to their own self interest obv)....of course there are plenty of people with 'honor' but the dishonorable amongst the human race far outnumbers the honorable...and the reasons for this i think are obvious and pointess to bother discussing
should we hold it against progamers of today for cheating in tournaments during progaming's infancy where everyone else was cheating anyways? i guess yes and no....young broke kids playing video games...desperate people do desperate things...if you actually want to be dissapointed at them or angry then you need to wake the fuck up, the world is full of greedy people...better start hating your neighbors!
i mean...you can always forgive someone who is apologetic and still just never trust them again, pretty easy...don't hate but don't trust lol...but yeah the ones trying to justify their actions: L O L u did it cuz ur a greedy faggot and thats it, close ur pathetic trap
much like back in the day during kbk as to now in tsl2, what a smart person would do about the dodging situation is to not cheat themselves, but to make a big public issue about the people they think are cheating and the inherent flaws in the system. it's all you really can do. try and make a change rather than melding yourself to the will of cheaters.
the real ones to blame during kbk and stuff are the organizers for their stupidity to a much greater extent than blaming the gosu players 'forced' to abuse (not that what they did was right)
i'm not saying TSL2 is a perfect system, as wax said every tournament has it's inherent flaws like the dodging stuff...but what the cheaters were too stupid to realize is, beyond it's inherent flaws are it's MOTHER FKING RULES. why do these sad kids all feel they are entitled to something? tsl is a gift from fking TLNET to the community, if you don't like its rules GTFO
when i play live poker and i'm next to some old rich idiot who when he looks at his cards he totally exposes them to my perhiperial vision, i ALWAYS tell them to be careful looking at their cards and that i saw their hand. even the times where the dealer is dealing and slightly fucks up and one of the players' cards color is barely exposed to my eye i will say 'WTF BLACK FACE CARD FOR SURE FLIP IT UP MISDEAL' this should be standard in a perfect world, but its super rare, and i'm dissapointed to hear when some ppl whom i previously respect tell me 'yeah i could see his hand lol'
but...what if i was completely broke and one of my family members needed a hospital operation but needed payment and my only way of getting cash was to abuse an advantage like this...would i tell the old stupid dude i could see his cards? probably not.
does that make me a bad person?
but comparing nazgul to these progamers is laughable. nazgul is a well-off educated intelligent multilingual guy from the netherlands who had the odds of succeeding in progaming stacked against him anyways. not knocking him at all and props to him as i know he's always been honorable....but it's much easier for him to take the high road than some stupid nerd no life fucker broke with no money slurping down ramyun noodles every day loser korean kid during the infancy of progaming
i'm not saying i condone anything these cheating faggots ever did, nor would i ever do it, but u just gotta realize that people are what they are and react accordingly
as for the cheater purdge, that is totally the correct reaction and i'm glad they are banned
but man....more so than being like 'wow i'm so dissapointed that you'd be bad manner enough to cheat' ....what i'm thinking is:
'LOL YOU ARE SO FUCKING DUMB FOR TRYING TO CHEAT IN TSL (BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS THE MOST SCRUTINIZED AND FOLLOWED ONLINE FOREIGNER SC EVENT EVER) LOL ARE YOU FUCKING JOKING LOL GL LIFE LOLLLL'
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On December 30 2009 06:20 Amarxist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2009 06:10 Hamster1800 wrote:On December 30 2009 05:57 Amarxist wrote:On December 30 2009 05:30 Hamster1800 wrote:
When you make the ladder a qualifier for a big tournament such as TSL, I cannot see that abuse and dodging are worlds apart. What was the qualifying rank for TSL? A-? What was qualifying for top 12? A? How many of the players do you think could get to the rank that they got to without dodging?
In my eyes, dodging and abusing both get you a rank that you couldn't get normally. How is that worlds apart? They're worlds apart because when you abuse a ladder; you're granting yourself wins. You're gaining points without any risk. When you dodge, you're simply denying yourself a chance to lose/gain points. Whether you're A- or A+. You have to play people who within your rating in order to actually gain rating. If you don't play, people who will--will surpass you because overall point inflation will increase everyone's overall rating. Okay, let me put it this way. Suppose that we had a D rank tournament, okay? Now there is one D rank player that everyone thinks is better than them by enough that they would win most of the games. So the rest of the players in the tournament all dodge that player and the koreans on the ladder. Because of point inflation, these players will all hit A-. What is the "stronger" D rank player to do? Maybe he plays a lot and gets to C-. But regardless, none of the other weak players will be willing to play him and this guy won't have a chance against the C- koreans. Are you saying that that is fair? Basically replace D by B+ and you have TSL. What you described is a boycott to play a single player. You can't do anything about that. That is such an extreme example it's almost not valid. Although, it would be funny to see. That is very likely not to happen, unless everyone hates that one person. The reality is, people want points. The need to play in order to gain points. Ego's between humans will make people believe they are better then others, or the best. Because of this, known people will play other known people. The more games are played the more inflation takes place. Edit: If you're so adamant in believing what you say is correct. Then why have all the people expected to qualify have qualified? Using your theory as an example, a lot of these most known, dangerous top foreign players should have been dodged off the ladder. How was morrow able to increase his ranking to #2 in the last days of the ladder? TeamLiquid provided a big incentive to take top 12 in ladder by granting those with top 12 higher positions in the tournament rounds. This instills greed into people and they're willing to do anything (abuse, dodge, or not dodge and risk losing their current ranking for fear they may be overtaken).
Well that's exactly what happens when you don't allow smurfs.
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I honestly cant sympathize with anyone's decision to cheat, whether is be a soccer game or a starcraft ladder. I have gained so much more respect for nazgul now. I dont care if he didnt even qualify. If I was into sc 5 years ago, I would most definetly have cheered Nazgul and his decison, and booed Anytime and Iris and YellOw.
And on the TSL1 AND TSL2 rules post it says that they can request a smurf.
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For all the KesPA bashing that goes on here, isn't this one area where they've actually improved the game? By replacing ladders with courage tournaments where you're on a LAN and are watched by referees they've found a way to give progaming licenses to only those who are good enough to deserve them and not those who abused the most.
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Wonderful post. Thanks so much for sharing your insight and experience.
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Baa?21242 Posts
I honestly see no difference in dodgers and abusers. The only difference that exists in the real world is that dodgers are allowed to go on because we can't really monitor dodging. Both just do the same thing in depriving us a fair top-48. Imperfect world blows, whatever. >_>
Is it fair that the abusers are banned? Absolutely. But it would be even fairer if dodgers were also banned. Is that practical? Not at all. But because of the dodging that led to the abusing, I honestly do not find the abusers to be morally reprehensible anymore than a dodger :\
Think of F91 - he was faced with a double burden of 1) needing top 12, 2) only able to, most of the time, play Koreans. He had his hand forced, so he abused. Then he got caught and was banned. Sucks, but I don't find him to be a monstrously immoral person because of it.
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If I was a contender for the top 48 and had my hand (actively or passively) forced I personally would seriously consider ladder abuse. How many chances are you going to get for tournaments like TSL to be organized? A good portion of OSL/MSLs have been won by players who have never repeated that feat. They must have been playing the game of their life back then. How long can a person keep up that form, practice and mindset to run that hot? If another big tournament comes around in some years, it's impossible to say whether you will be up to it again, if ever.
If you were in top 60-ish and getting dodged to hell, and ended up having to play against people way better, which didn't end well, you have the respect of everyone in the community, if anyone ever finds out. And nothing else.
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Everyone using smurf nicks where the opponents cant see their stats only the rank is one option.
Automatic match making would be a better option.
The current TSL2 online qualifier is obviously flawed.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
good post wax, I pretty much share all your opinions specially this core statement: On December 29 2009 08:59 Waxangel wrote: an unregulated ladder is not a credible ladder... as for the future, if we are lucky, Blizz is reading too.
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Nice read. It certainly shed some light for me on abusing in SC.
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It's so obvious what the differences are between dodging and abusing, so I won't go over what has already been said. There are a few points I'd make that seem to elude Hamster1800. Firstly, there are players who played almost only koreans like White-Ra and IdrA and yet managed to qualify. Of course not every player is that good, sure, but if you're so good to be dodged by everyone then you're good enough to play the A- koreans and win. And if you're not good enough to play the A- koreans and win then people probably aren't going to be dodging you - simple.
If you believed Reason you'd think he miraculously occupied this tiny niche of skill where EVERYONE decent whom he could win against dodged him and yet he was just not good enough to play any korean of equivalent rank.
On December 30 2009 05:57 Amarxist wrote:
Ego's between humans will make people believe they are better then others, or the best. Because of this, known people will play other known people
Exactly, most gamers of roughly equal skill think they can beat each other - and hence will play. You also start to lose more points than you gain as you hit A-/A. So if a bunch of ppl are dodging not just koreans but also good foreigners then immediately a bunch will start to lose more points than they gain. And the one's that somehow make it through are going to be vsing either:
a) the few other dodgers that scavenged and clawed their way over their fellow dodgers to the top48 or
b) they will be facing ppl who got into the top 48 by not dodging. So they will realistically lose.
On December 30 2009 05:30 Hamster1800 wrote:
Besides the comments I inserted into your post in bold, consider that almost none of the people in top 48 are capable of having a winning record against A- koreans.
This is irrelevant because this is a foreigner tournament. The real question is 'Can they beat IdrA, ret, White-Ra in a Bo5?'.
The only possible victims that Hamster1800 identifies is someone who is supposedly so gosu that no foreigner will play them, except somehow aren't good enough to play IdrA/White-Ra or any korean. I frankly don't think these ppl exist. We've got a great top 48 and the ppl who blatantly cheated have been removed. Dodging is barely a problem, get over it. They'll be owned by the better players soon, remember only 12 are advancing out of this 48, so chill :p
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actually there was absolutely no abuse or hack in the pro ladder at wc3. aside from sniping which is basically someone giveing up there pro account to friends and it getting shit stats and haveing pros who are in the top try to match certain players in an attempt to make them lose points. which they will lose tons considering the person who is on the sniper account has very bad stats
( lose more points to noobs as opposed to top )
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On January 04 2010 23:54 InClass wrote:
I sure, but if you're so good to be dodged by everyone then you're good enough to play the A- koreans and win. And if you're not good enough to play the A- koreans and win then people probably aren't going to be dodging you - simple.
It is not simple because you're plain wrong. The skill gap between B+/A- is so HUGE because of the fact that you lose more than you win when you attain the A- rank. You have to freaking realize that an A- Korean is a GREAT deal better than a typical foreigner as it's just their culture. There is a big gap in there for someone to be good enough for people to dodge his ass and not quite able to beat A- Koreans.
The only possible victims that Hamster1800 identifies is someone who is supposedly so gosu that no foreigner will play them, except somehow aren't good enough to play IdrA/White-Ra or any korean.
Again there are more than you think. The way A level play works means the skill gap can be VERY VERY significant. Idra/Ret/White-Ra are some of the very few foreigners that can play against A- Koreans and retain a winning record.
I frankly don't think these ppl exist.
You're a hopeless cause then
We've got a great top 48 and the ppl who blatantly cheated have been removed. Dodging is barely a problem, get over it. They'll be owned by the better players soon, remember only 12 are advancing out of this 48, so chill :p
"so chill" I fucking hate this comment in this case with so much passion. Why the hell should we just CHILL with an inherently flawed system. Even TL admins generally agree that an open "you can select your opponents" ladder is just not that good.
Dodging is a problem, it always HAS been one. Even if the dodgers in the Top48 get eliminated soon it can very well deprive you of a good game because someone else of higher skill got bumped out because his poor ass god dodged five ways to sunday.
It's a problem, start realizing that thanks.
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EPT
