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Braavos36374 Posts
On December 26 2009 22:10 KristianJS wrote:
The desire to see the top players in a long, intense game is of course highly understandable, but these kind of epic games can only result from a situation where both players are trying everything in their power to destroy their opponent but end up constantly blocking each other.
This guy speaks the truth. Sure its disappointing to have a 5 minute bunker rush game, but what makes Pro SC so great is that the players are doing everything in their power to win. That's what makes great competition great, and epic moments epic. You can't hold back or script it even a little or the effect is completely lost.
For instance, for TSL qualifiers there are many groups which are stronger than others. If we just had a vote for the Top 16 players that might get us a "better" Top 16, but we instantly lose that special feeling of not knowing what's going to happen or who's going to qualify.
This feeling of uncertainty is absolutely vital to having a legitimate sport. The viewers / fans need to KNOW that both players can and will do everything possible to win. We don't know what's goin to happen, so when big, intense games occur, they are amplified and genuine. The best sporting moments happen because of this quality, not in spite of it.
So yes, the Flash / Jaedong Game 2 was a disappointment, but every single OSL Finals Game 5 could not have happened without a competitive structure that produces such games.
 
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Canada7170 Posts
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I agree completely. The people who are complaining about this are pansies. Winning is winning.
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I think it's just a starcraft experience and maturity thing.
- Players who are completely new are fascinated by simply watching nukes go off
- Then you gain more experience and realize that that's boring. But you are excited and pumped and think its "the most epic game ever omg guyz" when someone nukes in an actual game, ie Savior v Flash from that special proleague thing or w/e it was.
- Then you learn more and find that boring as it's essentially just playing around, and you learn more about the game and become interested in watching players play long games with big armies, back and forth battles, etc.
- Then you learn more and appreciate the lead-up to those situations, the mind-games and builds that set up the big battles, and you become more interested in the maneuvering, mentally and within the game, that makes for long games.
- Then you learn more and are able to enjoy the meta-game, the mind games and the out-thinking of one player of another.
When you are at the last point, the Flash v Jaedong game 2 is very exciting. It's about preparing a build to counter an opponent's expected build, to play against your own image and exploit your opponent's likely tendencies, less so than the actual action itself.
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I wasn't dissapointed at all I thought both games were amazing. =p
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It was just hilarious that the fans thought they were owed something. Like they were entitled to an epic game. And the hate... what insanity.
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Also, form the original quote "...where both players are trying everything in their power to destroy their opponent but end up constantly blocking each other.".
The last couple of words, "end up constantly block each other" is key to those suddenly hating Flash and saying he ruined the series for them. Flash brought it; Jaedong was unable to block it. Don't blame Flash for dismantling Jaedong so quickly and cleanly, and thus ending the series, blame Jaedong for not being able to properly counter the build.
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On December 27 2009 06:09 MYM.Testie wrote:
It was just hilarious that the fans thought they were owed something. Like they were entitled to an epic game. And the hate... what insanity.
Exactly. Spoiled brats.
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2nd game flash used invisinble strategy... there was 0% chance of JD defending/wining .
For once i blame the map.
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On December 27 2009 06:13 SkelA wrote:
2nd game flash used invisinble strategy... there was 0% chance of JD defending/wining .
For once i blame the map.
Except that his build can be hard-countered, so it's not invincible at all.
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United States10774 Posts
On December 27 2009 06:06 cz wrote:
- Then you learn more and are able to enjoy the meta-game, the mind games and the out-thinking of one player of another.
When you are at the last point, the Flash v Jaedong game 2 is very exciting. It's about preparing a build to counter an opponent's expected build, to play against your own image and exploit your opponent's likely tendencies, less so than the actual action itself.
i agree, well said
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On December 27 2009 06:14 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 06:13 SkelA wrote:
2nd game flash used invisinble strategy... there was 0% chance of JD defending/wining .
For once i blame the map. Except that his build can be hard-countered, so it's not invincible at all.
No i cant be countered thats why i said invisible ...losing first ovi its so painfull in zvt even if JD would 9 pool he would still lose that game.
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On December 27 2009 06:16 SkelA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 06:14 cz wrote:On December 27 2009 06:13 SkelA wrote:
2nd game flash used invisinble strategy... there was 0% chance of JD defending/wining .
For once i blame the map. Except that his build can be hard-countered, so it's not invincible at all. No i cant be countered thats why i said invisible ...losing first ovi its so painfull in zvt even if JD would 9 pool he would still lose that game.
Yeah but you can 4-6 pool and you pretty much auto-win versus that build. The build has a hard counter that cleanly beats it. Thus if a player is using that build, you need to incorporate builds that beat it or at least do decently against it (ie overpool) rather than just keep 12 hatching.
In poker terms, what Flash did is called "balancing his range". It makes him a more difficult player to play against. This is a fundamental concept in poker: anybody on LP would immediately understand what Flash did from a decision-making perspective and why it is very good, not only for this game, but for all his games.
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On December 27 2009 06:16 SkelA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 06:14 cz wrote:On December 27 2009 06:13 SkelA wrote:
2nd game flash used invisinble strategy... there was 0% chance of JD defending/wining .
For once i blame the map. Except that his build can be hard-countered, so it's not invincible at all. No i cant be countered thats why i said invisible ...losing first ovi its so painfull in zvt even if JD would 9 pool he would still lose that game.
so tvz on HBR is solved right? theres absolutely nothing a zerg could do other then just alt q q if terran goes 7 rax right?
genius
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On December 27 2009 06:17 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 06:16 SkelA wrote:On December 27 2009 06:14 cz wrote:On December 27 2009 06:13 SkelA wrote:
2nd game flash used invisinble strategy... there was 0% chance of JD defending/wining .
For once i blame the map. Except that his build can be hard-countered, so it's not invincible at all. No i cant be countered thats why i said invisible ...losing first ovi its so painfull in zvt even if JD would 9 pool he would still lose that game. Yeah but you can 4-6 pool and you pretty much auto-win versus that build. The build has a hard counter that cleanly beats it.
4-6 pool fails horibly vs 8 rax he have enough time to make bunk into his base and get at least 1-2 marines in his base and still win. We can go all night about this ^^
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I don't think the build was even really designed to win outright, as it seemed more to throw Jaedong off balance via the overlord kill -> 12 hatch cancel, for a slight economic advantage. Except Jaedong didn't cancel -> died -> much rage ensued.
But yes, it reminds me of Flash bunker rushing Stork on Katrina in the GOM finals some time ago, when everyone expected Flash to whip out The Flash Build. And Stork was clearly antsying to counter that build. Absolutely wonderful, but you wouldn't understand the beauty of it without understanding all the history that'd built up to that game.
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United States2186 Posts
That build isn't so much a cheese as a really good build on HBR. The only way it wouldn't work at all is if Jaedong didn't send his first overlord to that spot, which he definitely isn't going to do for no reason because having the ovie untouchable above their nat is so helpful and otherwise free of risk. It's all the more impressive because HBR is such a hard map for TvZ.
Also funny to note that of all the many Flash v Jaedong games only one has really been any kind of epic or close game that effectively lasted over 15 minutes (the MSL game on Loki). The rest have either been one person's prepared strategy winning, one player making a critical mistake and the other punishing it mercilessly, or Flash slumping and getting destroyed (Jaedong doesn't slump).
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Ok the build is either win fast or throw zerg into really big disadvantage so this is flash we are talking about he wont mess up in in either way.
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On December 27 2009 06:21 SkelA wrote:
Ok the build is either win fast or throw zerg into really big disadvantage so this is flash we are talking about he wont mess up in in either way.
So, as AntZ said, there is no possible counter to this build? TvZ on Neo HBR is a completely solved game, and Terrans should now have a 100% or near 100% winrate on it?
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I agree, both of the games were really fun, and it's kind of like the situation when Flash cheesed out Bisu on Monty Hall LOL
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On December 27 2009 06:23 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 06:21 SkelA wrote:
Ok the build is either win fast or throw zerg into really big disadvantage so this is flash we are talking about he wont mess up in in either way. So, as AntZ said, there is no possible counter to this build? TvZ on Neo HBR is a completely solved game, and Terrans should now have a 100% or near 100% winrate on it?
You can decide not to send ovi to the normal scouting path ... but yea its really good build on new HBR. Leaving out the cliff in middle map is really bad for zerg.
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Hotbid speaks the truth. Players will play to win not to entertain people or whatever
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United States10774 Posts
On December 27 2009 06:23 FragKrag wrote:
I agree, both of the games were really fun, and it's kind of like the situation when Flash cheesed out Bisu on Monty Hall LOL
yeah, but the only difference is that flash hasn't proven himself yet back then. now everybody knows he's the elite, the top of the crop, and the ultimate terran. (it makes me appreciate his cheesy plays instead of thinking that he's just another cheese ball)
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On December 27 2009 06:25 SkelA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 06:23 cz wrote:On December 27 2009 06:21 SkelA wrote:
Ok the build is either win fast or throw zerg into really big disadvantage so this is flash we are talking about he wont mess up in in either way. So, as AntZ said, there is no possible counter to this build? TvZ on Neo HBR is a completely solved game, and Terrans should now have a 100% or near 100% winrate on it? You can decide not to send ovi to the normal scouting path ... but yea its really good build on new HBR. Leaving out the cliff in middle map is really bad for zerg.
I am still certain a 4-6 pool, maybe up to 8 pool, hard-counters this build and gets a very strong position for zerg, even if the terran lifts and floats back to his main with his rax. The 4-6 pool especially, as it protects the OL, and kills the marines.
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I really like cheese games but that was just showing flash genious mind + abusing new map to the max.
Im mad cuz JD had no chance at all defend this perfect strategy execution by flash
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Hot_Bid, I couldnt be more appreciative of you making this thread after seeing all the BS from various posters about that game.
It was an epic game, just like every game between these two are. I dont care how lopsided ones victory is, I just love seeing the title Jaedong vs Flash.
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The obvious way to prevent that sort of snipe is not to send the overlord out early at all. (Or send it partway, to a safe location, and bring it the rest of the way when Zerglings are out and Terran is contained.) That sucks for Zerg, as they're accustomed to good overlord positions at no cost and still tend to be disadvantaged vs. Terran, but it's hardly an automatic defeat.
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I agree completely. People should go watch WWE if they always want matches to "deliver" the hype.
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On December 27 2009 06:27 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 06:25 SkelA wrote:On December 27 2009 06:23 cz wrote:On December 27 2009 06:21 SkelA wrote:
Ok the build is either win fast or throw zerg into really big disadvantage so this is flash we are talking about he wont mess up in in either way. So, as AntZ said, there is no possible counter to this build? TvZ on Neo HBR is a completely solved game, and Terrans should now have a 100% or near 100% winrate on it? You can decide not to send ovi to the normal scouting path ... but yea its really good build on new HBR. Leaving out the cliff in middle map is really bad for zerg. I am still certain a 4-6 pool, maybe up to 8 pool, hard-counters this build and gets a very strong position for zerg, even if the terran lifts and floats back to his main with his rax. The 4-6 pool especially, as it protects the OL, and kills the marines.
Forcing zerg to 4-6 pool and you defending it without losses still puts terran into really favored position he have more scvs and zerg is left with no economy at all
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I think you can pick off ovi on time with 2 marines but even if you dont its still cool and you can block choke with a supply which is ling proof is still good enough setup for mid game.
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I agree. I am one of the bigger jaedong fans on this website and I can't help but feel that in that series he was miles behind flash.
That build/play on hbr was fucking brilliant. It isn't the maps fault that all zergs are scouting in the exact same area/path or that pro zergs rarely 9 drone scout or that overpool is a safe but sometimes economically unviable build on their level level. I think the predictablity of zergs on hbr deserves punishment and flash choose the perfect stage to exploit it AND change his strategy.
Nobody even talks about the risk flash ran with that build and how an overpool or 9pool was an almost automatical lose against the strongest zerg or the danger is having to face jaedong with a one to one score in the r08.... I think flashes play showed everything from heroics to strategic mastery .... what more can you ask of the worlds best terran?
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On December 27 2009 06:31 SkelA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 06:27 cz wrote:On December 27 2009 06:25 SkelA wrote:On December 27 2009 06:23 cz wrote:On December 27 2009 06:21 SkelA wrote:
Ok the build is either win fast or throw zerg into really big disadvantage so this is flash we are talking about he wont mess up in in either way. So, as AntZ said, there is no possible counter to this build? TvZ on Neo HBR is a completely solved game, and Terrans should now have a 100% or near 100% winrate on it? You can decide not to send ovi to the normal scouting path ... but yea its really good build on new HBR. Leaving out the cliff in middle map is really bad for zerg. I am still certain a 4-6 pool, maybe up to 8 pool, hard-counters this build and gets a very strong position for zerg, even if the terran lifts and floats back to his main with his rax. The 4-6 pool especially, as it protects the OL, and kills the marines. Forcing zerg to 4-6 pool and you defending it without losses still puts terran into really favored position he have more scvs and zerg is left with no economy at all . I think you can pick off ovi on time with 2 marines but even if you dont its still cool and you can block choke with a supply which is ling proof is still good enough setup for mid game.
Well, this will be decided shortly. According to you TvZ on new HBR should be close to 100% winrate for Terran and terrans should always go for the 7 rax build.
- If they don't go for the 7 rax build 100% of the time, then you are wrong that it's unbeatable, as why would a progamer not go for what he believes to be an unbeatable build (or an uncounterable build that gives him a sizeable advantage in all scenarios)?
- If they go for it and lose with it, then you are likewise wrong that it's unbeatable.
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yes lets talk to the people in live report threads like they are human beings
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On December 27 2009 06:35 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 06:31 SkelA wrote:On December 27 2009 06:27 cz wrote:On December 27 2009 06:25 SkelA wrote:On December 27 2009 06:23 cz wrote:On December 27 2009 06:21 SkelA wrote:
Ok the build is either win fast or throw zerg into really big disadvantage so this is flash we are talking about he wont mess up in in either way. So, as AntZ said, there is no possible counter to this build? TvZ on Neo HBR is a completely solved game, and Terrans should now have a 100% or near 100% winrate on it? You can decide not to send ovi to the normal scouting path ... but yea its really good build on new HBR. Leaving out the cliff in middle map is really bad for zerg. I am still certain a 4-6 pool, maybe up to 8 pool, hard-counters this build and gets a very strong position for zerg, even if the terran lifts and floats back to his main with his rax. The 4-6 pool especially, as it protects the OL, and kills the marines. Forcing zerg to 4-6 pool and you defending it without losses still puts terran into really favored position he have more scvs and zerg is left with no economy at all . I think you can pick off ovi on time with 2 marines but even if you dont its still cool and you can block choke with a supply which is ling proof is still good enough setup for mid game. Well, this will be decided shortly. According to you TvZ on new HBR should be close to 100% winrate for Terran and terrans should always go for the 7 rax build. If they don't go for the 7 rax build 100% of the time, then you are wrong that it's unbeatable, as why would a progamer not go for what he believes to be an unbeatable build? If they go for it and lose with it, then you are likewise wrong that it's unbeatable.
Dude... we are talking especialy about Flash vs JD game. Every strategy can be countered and this is no exception you can counter this by going 9pool/overpool and sending scouting ovi into different location.
Flash plan was to kill first ovi ( which is really a BIG deal ) and just take the game with the bunker rush because lings would be really late. Stop talking about 100% tvz winrate already. There is a reason why maps got updates all the time to fix map imbalances.
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On December 27 2009 06:41 SkelA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 06:35 cz wrote:On December 27 2009 06:31 SkelA wrote:On December 27 2009 06:27 cz wrote:On December 27 2009 06:25 SkelA wrote:On December 27 2009 06:23 cz wrote:On December 27 2009 06:21 SkelA wrote:
Ok the build is either win fast or throw zerg into really big disadvantage so this is flash we are talking about he wont mess up in in either way. So, as AntZ said, there is no possible counter to this build? TvZ on Neo HBR is a completely solved game, and Terrans should now have a 100% or near 100% winrate on it? You can decide not to send ovi to the normal scouting path ... but yea its really good build on new HBR. Leaving out the cliff in middle map is really bad for zerg. I am still certain a 4-6 pool, maybe up to 8 pool, hard-counters this build and gets a very strong position for zerg, even if the terran lifts and floats back to his main with his rax. The 4-6 pool especially, as it protects the OL, and kills the marines. Forcing zerg to 4-6 pool and you defending it without losses still puts terran into really favored position he have more scvs and zerg is left with no economy at all . I think you can pick off ovi on time with 2 marines but even if you dont its still cool and you can block choke with a supply which is ling proof is still good enough setup for mid game. Well, this will be decided shortly. According to you TvZ on new HBR should be close to 100% winrate for Terran and terrans should always go for the 7 rax build. If they don't go for the 7 rax build 100% of the time, then you are wrong that it's unbeatable, as why would a progamer not go for what he believes to be an unbeatable build? If they go for it and lose with it, then you are likewise wrong that it's unbeatable. Dude... we are talking especialy about Flash vs JD game. Every strategy can be countered and this is no exception you can counter this by going 9pool/overpool and sending scouting ovi into different location.Flash plan was to kill first ovi ( which is really a BIG deal ) and just take the game with the bunker rush because lings would be really late. Stop talking about 100% tvz winrate already. There is a reason why maps got updates all the time to fix map imbalances.
On December 27 2009 06:13 SkelA wrote:
No i cant be countered thats why i said invisible ...losing first ovi its so painfull in zvt even if JD would 9 pool he would still lose that game.
On December 27 2009 06:21 SkelA wrote:
Forcing zerg to 4-6 pool and you defending it without losses still puts terran into really favored position he have more scvs and zerg is left with no economy at all
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I think you can pick off ovi on time with 2 marines but even if you dont its still cool and you can block choke with a supply which is ling proof is still good enough setup for mid game.
You are contradicting yourself. You stated that it couldn't be countered, and in a few more posts said that it's even fine against a 4-6 pool, and now you are saying that a 9 pool counters it?
Make up your mind please.
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cz from your posts it sounds like you've never played starcraft before, is this true?
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Geez Im saying that that strategy cant be countered by JD IN THAT GAME because was the first time ever executed in a tv game and JD couldnt counter because of the lost ovi.
In my other post i say sending ovi to other place meaning ovi will survive and you can defend it like any normal game.
You clearly have some problems understanding simple issues
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On December 27 2009 06:47 zulu_nation8 wrote:
cz from your posts it sounds like you've never played starcraft before, is this true?
From your post it sounds like you are a douche who has a hard time getting along with people, is this true?
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On December 27 2009 06:49 SkelA wrote:
Geez Im saying that that strategy cant be countered by JD IN THAT GAME because was the first time ever executed in a tv game and JD couldnt counter because of the lost ovi.
In my other post i say sending ovi to other place meaning ovi will survive and you can defend it like any normal game.
You clearly have some problems understanding simple issues
Ok, I didn't understand that, mostly because you never stated it.
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zulu_nation8 is right you got no understaning (or really low) of the game at all.
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On December 27 2009 06:52 SkelA wrote:
zulu_nation8 is right you got no understaning (or really low) of the game at all.
A well-thought out post that explains what part of my reasoning is wrong and why, rather than the expected personal attack. Well done.
Oh wait.
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On December 27 2009 06:50 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 06:49 SkelA wrote:
Geez Im saying that that strategy cant be countered by JD IN THAT GAME because was the first time ever executed in a tv game and JD couldnt counter because of the lost ovi.
In my other post i say sending ovi to other place meaning ovi will survive and you can defend it like any normal game.
You clearly have some problems understanding simple issues Ok, I didn't understand that, mostly because you never stated it.
Hey cz stop posting. You obviously don't know anything and are choosing the wrong people to argue your crap with.
Stop it you are being a rude ignorant little prick.
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lol cz has to be trolling here
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On December 27 2009 06:54 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 06:50 cz wrote:On December 27 2009 06:49 SkelA wrote:
Geez Im saying that that strategy cant be countered by JD IN THAT GAME because was the first time ever executed in a tv game and JD couldnt counter because of the lost ovi.
In my other post i say sending ovi to other place meaning ovi will survive and you can defend it like any normal game.
You clearly have some problems understanding simple issues Ok, I didn't understand that, mostly because you never stated it. Hey cz stop posting. You obviously don't know anything and are choosing the wrong people to argue your crap with. Stop it you are being a rude ignorant little prick.
I can say whatever I want: I haven't attacked anyone any worse than people have done to me, nor did I start anything. Re-read my posts please rather than just siding with your friend because he's your friend.
But yes, there is very little to get out of this discussion now.
If you want to actually critique what I am saying and explain why it is wrong rather than just calling me names, go for it.
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There no need for insults we are just having some debate about that game.
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On December 27 2009 06:49 SkelA wrote:
Geez Im saying that that strategy cant be countered by JD IN THAT GAME because was the first time ever executed in a tv game and JD couldnt counter because of the lost ovi.
In my other post i say sending ovi to other place meaning ovi will survive and you can defend it like any normal game.
You clearly have some problems understanding simple issues
Zergs sending their overlord to scout for a proxy outside their nat and then sending their second OL to the T's nat has been a common scouting pattern for a long time. Jaedong could just as easily have done it that game, even if he hasn't seen this strat on a TV game. Even I had this rush used against me on the old heartbreak (your overlord is still guaranteed to die however the ledge that use to be there usually stalled enough time to nullify the actual marine pressure) multiple times and I would be really surprised if JD wasn't aware of the risk of sending his OL on such a path.\
However it was still an incredibly well thought out rush without any real risks except for a slight disadvantage on the small chance that JD countered it perfectly.
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On December 27 2009 07:00 Monkeyz_Rule wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 06:49 SkelA wrote:
Geez Im saying that that strategy cant be countered by JD IN THAT GAME because was the first time ever executed in a tv game and JD couldnt counter because of the lost ovi.
In my other post i say sending ovi to other place meaning ovi will survive and you can defend it like any normal game.
You clearly have some problems understanding simple issues Zergs sending their overlord to scout for a proxy outside their nat and then sending their second OL to the T's nat has been a common scouting pattern for a long time. Jaedong could just as easily have done it that game, even if he hasn't seen this strat on a TV game. Even I had this rush used against me on the old heartbreak (your overlord is still guaranteed to die however the ledge that use to be there usually stalled enough time to nullify the actual marine pressure) multiple times and I would be really surprised if JD wasn't aware of the risk of sending his OL on such a path.
Sending the ovie outside your nat to scout for proxy is ok and you can save your ovie 100% because of the cliff nearby.
If this strategy was done on old HBR JD can save his ovi on the middle cliff and im sure it cant be killed by marines there.
Just as i said Flash won because of a briliant bo combined with this map which makes it nearly unstopable if you lose your ovi
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I'm really glad someone decided to post a blog about this subject. I think it's outrageous to belittle a players skill or character based on a cheese. It's part of the game, it always has been and always will be. Boxer bunker rushed Yellow 3 times in a row during EVER 04. Fantasy rushed Jaedong to win the 08-09 proleague. These guys play to win and its so difficult for fanboys to appreciate that when their favorite player loses.
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On December 27 2009 07:04 SkelA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 07:00 Monkeyz_Rule wrote:On December 27 2009 06:49 SkelA wrote:
Geez Im saying that that strategy cant be countered by JD IN THAT GAME because was the first time ever executed in a tv game and JD couldnt counter because of the lost ovi.
In my other post i say sending ovi to other place meaning ovi will survive and you can defend it like any normal game.
You clearly have some problems understanding simple issues Zergs sending their overlord to scout for a proxy outside their nat and then sending their second OL to the T's nat has been a common scouting pattern for a long time. Jaedong could just as easily have done it that game, even if he hasn't seen this strat on a TV game. Even I had this rush used against me on the old heartbreak (your overlord is still guaranteed to die however the ledge that use to be there usually stalled enough time to nullify the actual marine pressure) multiple times and I would be really surprised if JD wasn't aware of the risk of sending his OL on such a path. Sending the ovie outside your nat to scout for proxy is ok and you can save your ovie 100% because of the cliff nearby. If this strategy was done on old HBR JD can save his ovi on the middle cliff and im sure it cant be killed by marines there. Just as i said Flash won because of a briliant bo combined with this map which makes it nearly unstopable if you lose your ovi
On the old HBR the ovie can be hit on that ledge if you just have marines attempting to kill it from more than 1 side. That or I just fail horribly when it comes to finding the sweet spot on it.
I'm simply saying that "can't" is too strong of a word.
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On December 27 2009 06:55 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 06:54 AttackZerg wrote:On December 27 2009 06:50 cz wrote:On December 27 2009 06:49 SkelA wrote:
Geez Im saying that that strategy cant be countered by JD IN THAT GAME because was the first time ever executed in a tv game and JD couldnt counter because of the lost ovi.
In my other post i say sending ovi to other place meaning ovi will survive and you can defend it like any normal game.
You clearly have some problems understanding simple issues Ok, I didn't understand that, mostly because you never stated it. Hey cz stop posting. You obviously don't know anything and are choosing the wrong people to argue your crap with. Stop it you are being a rude ignorant little prick. . Re-read my posts please rather than just siding with your friend because he's your friend.
nobody in this thread is my friend.
but you are arguing with the only a-/a level player in this thread about strategy ...
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On December 27 2009 07:12 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 06:55 cz wrote:On December 27 2009 06:54 AttackZerg wrote:On December 27 2009 06:50 cz wrote:On December 27 2009 06:49 SkelA wrote:
Geez Im saying that that strategy cant be countered by JD IN THAT GAME because was the first time ever executed in a tv game and JD couldnt counter because of the lost ovi.
In my other post i say sending ovi to other place meaning ovi will survive and you can defend it like any normal game.
You clearly have some problems understanding simple issues Ok, I didn't understand that, mostly because you never stated it. Hey cz stop posting. You obviously don't know anything and are choosing the wrong people to argue your crap with. Stop it you are being a rude ignorant little prick. . Re-read my posts please rather than just siding with your friend because he's your friend. nobody in this thread is my friend. but you are arguing with the only a-/a level player in this thread about strategy ...
There's nothing wrong with arguing about strategy. As per my character, however, I don't just say "well that person is high ranked, he doesn't need to explain why he is right and I am wrong." If I'm wrong, correct me and specifically explain why. That goes for anyone, any rank, but rank itself doesn't matter to me: if it produces explanations of why I am wrong, however, that is a good thing. If it leads to just "lol you are dumb", it isn't.
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Im not A-/A rank player lol ! ^^ MAybe B/B+
But i consider my theorycrafting and game understanding at A-/A just my poor mechanics always betray me in games ^^
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On December 27 2009 07:11 Monkeyz_Rule wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 07:04 SkelA wrote:On December 27 2009 07:00 Monkeyz_Rule wrote:On December 27 2009 06:49 SkelA wrote:
Geez Im saying that that strategy cant be countered by JD IN THAT GAME because was the first time ever executed in a tv game and JD couldnt counter because of the lost ovi.
In my other post i say sending ovi to other place meaning ovi will survive and you can defend it like any normal game.
You clearly have some problems understanding simple issues Zergs sending their overlord to scout for a proxy outside their nat and then sending their second OL to the T's nat has been a common scouting pattern for a long time. Jaedong could just as easily have done it that game, even if he hasn't seen this strat on a TV game. Even I had this rush used against me on the old heartbreak (your overlord is still guaranteed to die however the ledge that use to be there usually stalled enough time to nullify the actual marine pressure) multiple times and I would be really surprised if JD wasn't aware of the risk of sending his OL on such a path. Sending the ovie outside your nat to scout for proxy is ok and you can save your ovie 100% because of the cliff nearby. If this strategy was done on old HBR JD can save his ovi on the middle cliff and im sure it cant be killed by marines there. Just as i said Flash won because of a briliant bo combined with this map which makes it nearly unstopable if you lose your ovi On the old HBR the ovie can be hit on that ledge if you just have marines attempting to kill it from more than 1 side. That or I just fail horribly when it comes to finding the sweet spot on it. I'm simply saying that "can't" is too strong of a word.
Im not that sure about that but even if this is true losing like 1-2 min killing an ovi while you are proxy rushing is not really smart thing to do so you are puting yourself at one big disadvantage as terran ^^
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On December 27 2009 07:15 SkelA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 07:11 Monkeyz_Rule wrote:On December 27 2009 07:04 SkelA wrote:On December 27 2009 07:00 Monkeyz_Rule wrote:On December 27 2009 06:49 SkelA wrote:
Geez Im saying that that strategy cant be countered by JD IN THAT GAME because was the first time ever executed in a tv game and JD couldnt counter because of the lost ovi.
In my other post i say sending ovi to other place meaning ovi will survive and you can defend it like any normal game.
You clearly have some problems understanding simple issues Zergs sending their overlord to scout for a proxy outside their nat and then sending their second OL to the T's nat has been a common scouting pattern for a long time. Jaedong could just as easily have done it that game, even if he hasn't seen this strat on a TV game. Even I had this rush used against me on the old heartbreak (your overlord is still guaranteed to die however the ledge that use to be there usually stalled enough time to nullify the actual marine pressure) multiple times and I would be really surprised if JD wasn't aware of the risk of sending his OL on such a path. Sending the ovie outside your nat to scout for proxy is ok and you can save your ovie 100% because of the cliff nearby. If this strategy was done on old HBR JD can save his ovi on the middle cliff and im sure it cant be killed by marines there. Just as i said Flash won because of a briliant bo combined with this map which makes it nearly unstopable if you lose your ovi On the old HBR the ovie can be hit on that ledge if you just have marines attempting to kill it from more than 1 side. That or I just fail horribly when it comes to finding the sweet spot on it. I'm simply saying that "can't" is too strong of a word. Im not that sure about that but even if this is true losing like 1-2 min killing an ovi while you are proxy rushing is not really smart thing to do so you are puting yourself at one big disadvantage as terran ^^
I just tested it. Apparently there was a sweet spot on the bottom left because a tree was blocking part of the path around the cliff, but on the top right there is no tree and so there is no sweet spot (map flaw?). It depends how exactly T did it. When I played against it for the first time T went 10 rax, 10 depot so his economy was pretty much untouched. Meanwhile I 9 drone scouted it and 12 pooled as a result and also had to pull 2 drones to make sure he didn't depot my choke. In that situation the T comes out ahead simply by killing the ovie. It is a really weird example but it is there.
The same thing also happened against a normal 1 rax expo build (if i sent my 2nd ovie to his nat while scouting for a proxy with the first) and I went 3 hatch before pool because I saw him scout too late to respond with an scv rush.
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On December 27 2009 07:14 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 07:12 AttackZerg wrote:On December 27 2009 06:55 cz wrote:On December 27 2009 06:54 AttackZerg wrote:On December 27 2009 06:50 cz wrote:On December 27 2009 06:49 SkelA wrote:
Geez Im saying that that strategy cant be countered by JD IN THAT GAME because was the first time ever executed in a tv game and JD couldnt counter because of the lost ovi.
In my other post i say sending ovi to other place meaning ovi will survive and you can defend it like any normal game.
You clearly have some problems understanding simple issues Ok, I didn't understand that, mostly because you never stated it. Hey cz stop posting. You obviously don't know anything and are choosing the wrong people to argue your crap with. Stop it you are being a rude ignorant little prick. . Re-read my posts please rather than just siding with your friend because he's your friend. nobody in this thread is my friend. but you are arguing with the only a-/a level player in this thread about strategy ... There's nothing wrong with arguing about strategy. As per my character, however, I don't just say "well that person is high ranked, he doesn't need to explain why he is right and I am wrong." If I'm wrong, correct me and specifically explain why. That goes for anyone, any rank, but rank itself doesn't matter to me: if it produces explanations of why I am wrong, however, that is a good thing. If it leads to just "lol you are dumb", it isn't.
when you suggested a 4-6 pool or maybe 8 pool counter, you immediately lost all privilege to be reasoned with. You should learn to accept the fact that there are certain things in starcraft you won't understand if you don't play the game.
Also don't cry when someone points out you have no understanding of the game. No ones gonna caress your balls first then politely point out your ignorance.
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6-8 pool aren't even real viable builds since they don't achieve anything that a 9pool or a 5 pool don't and they are not a counter they are a blind aggression. Also any pool before 9 on hbr is blocked by a simple depot and those builds also have incorrect larva timings to be effective and that is simple zerg macro mechanics ....
I stated all of the reasons this build was so strong and why current trends and meta-game make it so powerfull already in my posts.
I have also (in almost 350 games at the b- level) never once had a terran kill my lord so it is possible that jaedong didn't even consider its possiblity.
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Cz drama. I kind of want to try race picking now  Use this strategy when zerg scum (insert irrelevant verb)!
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lol @ blaming the map for JD losing an ovie. Proxy rax is so common on HBR. He should have just sucked it up and 9 drone scouted. Dont blame the map on that at all. Flash just came out with a really solid plan and the assumption that JD would scout the way he did. Thats all there is to it really.
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I actually thought set two was much better than set one...
[But the series was a complete disappointment compared to Flash vs Zero]
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United States10774 Posts
how did a good OP degenerate into this shitpile
oh god go me i beat an A rank player last season
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On December 27 2009 07:15 SkelA wrote:
Im not A-/A rank player lol ! ^^ MAybe B/B+
But i consider my theorycrafting and game understanding at A-/A just my poor mechanics always betray me in games ^^
I was just going off of highest achieved rank without abuse ....
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Jaedong is my favorite player ever since he began playing and I STILL don't understand the hate that everyone was/is spewing. So what he got knocked out of this OSL by really good cheese by the best terran in the world..he has three of those trophies and IMO Flash deserves another one.
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"So yes, the Flash / Jaedong Game 2 was a disappointment"
Nope, I liked it a lot, and it lived up to my expectations.
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On December 27 2009 06:13 SkelA wrote:
derp derp derp derp derp derp imbalanced derp derp derp
flash does this for a living and you want him to play straight up and possibly lose just to entertain you, yeah thats reasonable
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jaedong can't handle cheeses. Maybe he should work on that part of his game.
he lost his chance at a proleague championship last season in a similar fashion, you'd think he'd learn his lesson right now. but too bad. the better player advances. flash>jaedong easily
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On December 27 2009 09:44 hugitout wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 06:13 SkelA wrote:
derp derp derp derp derp derp imbalanced derp derp derp
flash does this for a living and you want him to play straight up and possibly lose just to entertain you, yeah thats reasonable
..... I said Flash planned briliant strategy and executed it perfectly and i like more cheese tense games than epic macrofests. Im disapointed because Flash just didnt give JD even a chance because he is so fucking good using his genious mind together with using the map to the fullest.
Your stupid post makes no sense at all.
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On December 27 2009 09:56 ProbeSaturation wrote:
jaedong can't handle cheeses. Maybe he should work on that part of his game.
he lost his chance at a proleague championship last season in a similar fashion, you'd think he'd learn his lesson right now. but too bad. the better player advances. flash>jaedong easily
He can't handle it the first time, but he's good to go after one time.
The thing you have to realize is, all the good cheeses are used first on Jaedong, because he's that good.
I mean, you have Fantsy @ Medusa, Skyhigh @ Destination, and Flash @ HBR, all who have come out with a build that basically kills zerg the first time it's used. How many other zergs do you see being rushed so often?
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On December 27 2009 10:05 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 09:56 ProbeSaturation wrote:
jaedong can't handle cheeses. Maybe he should work on that part of his game.
he lost his chance at a proleague championship last season in a similar fashion, you'd think he'd learn his lesson right now. but too bad. the better player advances. flash>jaedong easily He can't handle it the first time, but he's good to go after one time. The thing you have to realize is, all the good cheeses are used first on Jaedong, because he's that good. I mean, you have Fantsy @ Medusa, Skyhigh @ Destination, and Flash @ HBR, all who have come out with a build that basically kills zerg the first time it's used. How many other zergs do you see being rushed so often?
This is definitely true.
Though Savior did have a knack for stopping EVERYTHING non-standard back in the day. But that was a different age (and Savior was really on a different level mentally - it was ridiculous).
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It feels like Jaedong has a little Idra in him. Or maybe Idra has a little Jaedong in him... either way - extremely confident but ultimately reliant on masterful mechanics rather than game intelligence. Not saying Jaedong doesn't have ANY, but he doesn't seem to be able to adapt as well as other players. He's either winning big or losing horribly in most of his games, not sure what that says about him to be honest.
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On December 27 2009 11:04 Fzero wrote:
It feels like Jaedong has a little Idra in him. Or maybe Idra has a little Jaedong in him... either way - extremely confident but ultimately reliant on masterful mechanics rather than game intelligence. Not saying Jaedong doesn't have ANY, but he doesn't seem to be able to adapt as well as other players. He's either winning big or losing horribly in most of his games, not sure what that says about him to be honest. No... that's not true.
Whether you're talking about Jaedong OR Idra, they both have great knowledge of the game.
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On December 27 2009 08:19 Sadist wrote:
lol @ blaming the map for JD losing an ovie. Proxy rax is so common on HBR. He should have just sucked it up and 9 drone scouted. Dont blame the map on that at all. Flash just came out with a really solid plan and the assumption that JD would scout the way he did. Thats all there is to it really. Erm....
It seems you missed something really important in that game. Map was everything. Notice that this was Neo HBR as opposed to vanilla HBR. In old HBR, it is possible to send the ovie scout in that same path jaedong took, and use the little cliff there to hide in case of a 7 rax or something. Neo HBR replaces this cliff with walkable terrain, so there is absolutely no place for the overlord to hide. In fact, there is no way to send an overlord scout across neo hbr without risking a snipe from a 7 rax.
Flash realized this and centered his strategy on sniping that first overlord on its map transit. The only way to not loose that overlord is to not send it at all. Flash thought (correctly) that Jaedong would send the overlord out of habit without realizing the new strategy formed by the map change to neo HBR. This was the brilliance of Flash's strategy in that game.
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OK reading the first/second page really pisses me off.
1. cz's posts were perfectly fine, he's arguing against SkelA's stupid post about how the build is "invisible" (trying to spell invincible) and that there was nothing to stop it. He never clarified that he was referring to the Flash vs JD game PARTICULARLY.
2. zulu, I have no idea why you would want to call out cz when SkelA made such a stupid post. SkelA sounded like such an ignorant JD fan in his posts whereas cz actually had some substance to his posts.
On December 27 2009 06:49 SkelA wrote:
Geez Im saying that that strategy cant be countered by JD IN THAT GAME because was the first time ever executed in a tv game and JD couldnt counter because of the lost ovi.
No matter what a build can still be countered lmfao. Just because JD had no knowledge of the build doesn't mean that the build couldn't be countered.
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Sorry CZ is right skela should have been clearer it was obvious what cz was thinking but not what skela was trying to say. No need to get angry at him for arguing what in his mind was a valid point.
About the OP I agree fully - the fact that two great SC minds are meeting is enough hype, it doesn't have to be a 45 minute back-and-forth game with queens and valkyries to live up to expectations.
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Yeah but the thing is SkelA explained his point (by mentioning that Z would be OK if they didn't scout the opponent with their first overlord) a few posts later and for some reason cz kept arguing. Oh and then he suggested "up to 8pool" lol.
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Let's face it, terrans have the most options @ high level starcraft play. I mean, it's kinda balanced that way because terran is so hard to learn and master but you kinda deserve a reward for your effort, so they give you a race that's extremely adaptable on the maps and can fuck around with the most openings. Seems reasonable to me.
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Jeez people simmer down!!! It was a good game and if your income depended on winning you would do anything it took to get there!
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Dominican Republic825 Posts
4 pages of discution? JD will do 9 Scout in this map im sure about it
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I was going to make a "ro8 OSL Cheese pisses Hitler off" to add some satire to the situation, but I actually ran out of things to complain about halfway through subbing the video.
No joke
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Sure, I was pissed that Jaedong lost to Flash in such a gay way, but after a few hours, I just accepted it. Starcraft is meant to be merciless and that's why it's such a perfect game for e-sports.
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Im more of a Stork fan but so as Flash and JD fan so im not angry at all that JD lost...
I was just proving my point to Cz who was stubornly arguing with me so sorry if my english is not that good so that someone cant understand what i was saying
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On December 27 2009 12:52 GreEny K wrote:
Jeez people simmer down!!! It was a good game and if your income depended on winning you would do anything it took to get there!
Minor derail, I've never heard a non canadian say simmer down until now O.O
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My old english teacher used to say simmer down all the time. I want to say she was from virginia.
re:map - anybody trying to claim that the map is not imbalanced is being ridiculous. Zerg is at a disadvantage enough even with the scout. When you only give them the option to either not scout or lose OL, that is a bad map. Old HBR T can still deny scout, but zerg won't lose OL, which is fair enough. To say that zerg must 4-6pool to counter is ridiculous also. That isn't a counter, it is a cheese build based on blind aggression. It can't possibly be a counter because it must be committed to before you can even know what the other player is doing.
I have a feeling that NHBR will be cycled out rather quickly. I dont know why they felt they needed to update the map? but whatever fix they made just causes more problems.
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On December 27 2009 06:20 Ver wrote:
That build isn't so much a cheese as a really good build on HBR. The only way it wouldn't work at all is if Jaedong didn't send his first overlord to that spot, which he definitely isn't going to do for no reason because having the ovie untouchable above their nat is so helpful and otherwise free of risk. It's all the more impressive because HBR is such a hard map for TvZ.
Also funny to note that of all the many Flash v Jaedong games only one has really been any kind of epic or close game that effectively lasted over 15 minutes (the MSL game on Loki). The rest have either been one person's prepared strategy winning, one player making a critical mistake and the other punishing it mercilessly, or Flash slumping and getting destroyed (Jaedong doesn't slump).
i liked the one on RH3 too it was pretty much a battle of attrition imho
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On December 27 2009 07:38 AttackZerg wrote:
I have also (in almost 350 games at the b- level) never once had a terran kill my lord so it is possible that jaedong didn't even consider its possiblity.
Thanks for the insight.
Its more clear why Flash's play was so devastating and special.
I guess I was expecting something more like
http://www.gomtv.net/videos/184
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EPT
