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Braavos36390 Posts
On December 26 2009 22:10 KristianJS wrote:
The desire to see the top players in a long, intense game is of course highly understandable, but these kind of epic games can only result from a situation where both players are trying everything in their power to destroy their opponent but end up constantly blocking each other.
This guy speaks the truth. Sure its disappointing to have a 5 minute bunker rush game, but what makes Pro SC so great is that the players are doing everything in their power to win. That's what makes great competition great, and epic moments epic. You can't hold back or script it even a little or the effect is completely lost.
For instance, for TSL qualifiers there are many groups which are stronger than others. If we just had a vote for the Top 16 players that might get us a "better" Top 16, but we instantly lose that special feeling of not knowing what's going to happen or who's going to qualify.
This feeling of uncertainty is absolutely vital to having a legitimate sport. The viewers / fans need to KNOW that both players can and will do everything possible to win. We don't know what's goin to happen, so when big, intense games occur, they are amplified and genuine. The best sporting moments happen because of this quality, not in spite of it.
So yes, the Flash / Jaedong Game 2 was a disappointment, but every single OSL Finals Game 5 could not have happened without a competitive structure that produces such games.
 
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Canada7170 Posts
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I agree completely. The people who are complaining about this are pansies. Winning is winning.
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I think it's just a starcraft experience and maturity thing.
- Players who are completely new are fascinated by simply watching nukes go off
- Then you gain more experience and realize that that's boring. But you are excited and pumped and think its "the most epic game ever omg guyz" when someone nukes in an actual game, ie Savior v Flash from that special proleague thing or w/e it was.
- Then you learn more and find that boring as it's essentially just playing around, and you learn more about the game and become interested in watching players play long games with big armies, back and forth battles, etc.
- Then you learn more and appreciate the lead-up to those situations, the mind-games and builds that set up the big battles, and you become more interested in the maneuvering, mentally and within the game, that makes for long games.
- Then you learn more and are able to enjoy the meta-game, the mind games and the out-thinking of one player of another.
When you are at the last point, the Flash v Jaedong game 2 is very exciting. It's about preparing a build to counter an opponent's expected build, to play against your own image and exploit your opponent's likely tendencies, less so than the actual action itself.
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I wasn't dissapointed at all I thought both games were amazing. =p
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It was just hilarious that the fans thought they were owed something. Like they were entitled to an epic game. And the hate... what insanity.
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Also, form the original quote "...where both players are trying everything in their power to destroy their opponent but end up constantly blocking each other.".
The last couple of words, "end up constantly block each other" is key to those suddenly hating Flash and saying he ruined the series for them. Flash brought it; Jaedong was unable to block it. Don't blame Flash for dismantling Jaedong so quickly and cleanly, and thus ending the series, blame Jaedong for not being able to properly counter the build.
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On December 27 2009 06:09 MYM.Testie wrote:
It was just hilarious that the fans thought they were owed something. Like they were entitled to an epic game. And the hate... what insanity.
Exactly. Spoiled brats.
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2nd game flash used invisinble strategy... there was 0% chance of JD defending/wining .
For once i blame the map.
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On December 27 2009 06:13 SkelA wrote:
2nd game flash used invisinble strategy... there was 0% chance of JD defending/wining .
For once i blame the map.
Except that his build can be hard-countered, so it's not invincible at all.
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United States10774 Posts
On December 27 2009 06:06 cz wrote:
- Then you learn more and are able to enjoy the meta-game, the mind games and the out-thinking of one player of another.
When you are at the last point, the Flash v Jaedong game 2 is very exciting. It's about preparing a build to counter an opponent's expected build, to play against your own image and exploit your opponent's likely tendencies, less so than the actual action itself.
i agree, well said
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On December 27 2009 06:14 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 06:13 SkelA wrote:
2nd game flash used invisinble strategy... there was 0% chance of JD defending/wining .
For once i blame the map. Except that his build can be hard-countered, so it's not invincible at all.
No i cant be countered thats why i said invisible ...losing first ovi its so painfull in zvt even if JD would 9 pool he would still lose that game.
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On December 27 2009 06:16 SkelA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 06:14 cz wrote:On December 27 2009 06:13 SkelA wrote:
2nd game flash used invisinble strategy... there was 0% chance of JD defending/wining .
For once i blame the map. Except that his build can be hard-countered, so it's not invincible at all. No i cant be countered thats why i said invisible ...losing first ovi its so painfull in zvt even if JD would 9 pool he would still lose that game.
Yeah but you can 4-6 pool and you pretty much auto-win versus that build. The build has a hard counter that cleanly beats it. Thus if a player is using that build, you need to incorporate builds that beat it or at least do decently against it (ie overpool) rather than just keep 12 hatching.
In poker terms, what Flash did is called "balancing his range". It makes him a more difficult player to play against. This is a fundamental concept in poker: anybody on LP would immediately understand what Flash did from a decision-making perspective and why it is very good, not only for this game, but for all his games.
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On December 27 2009 06:16 SkelA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 06:14 cz wrote:On December 27 2009 06:13 SkelA wrote:
2nd game flash used invisinble strategy... there was 0% chance of JD defending/wining .
For once i blame the map. Except that his build can be hard-countered, so it's not invincible at all. No i cant be countered thats why i said invisible ...losing first ovi its so painfull in zvt even if JD would 9 pool he would still lose that game.
so tvz on HBR is solved right? theres absolutely nothing a zerg could do other then just alt q q if terran goes 7 rax right?
genius
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On December 27 2009 06:17 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2009 06:16 SkelA wrote:On December 27 2009 06:14 cz wrote:On December 27 2009 06:13 SkelA wrote:
2nd game flash used invisinble strategy... there was 0% chance of JD defending/wining .
For once i blame the map. Except that his build can be hard-countered, so it's not invincible at all. No i cant be countered thats why i said invisible ...losing first ovi its so painfull in zvt even if JD would 9 pool he would still lose that game. Yeah but you can 4-6 pool and you pretty much auto-win versus that build. The build has a hard counter that cleanly beats it.
4-6 pool fails horibly vs 8 rax he have enough time to make bunk into his base and get at least 1-2 marines in his base and still win. We can go all night about this ^^
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United States11768 Posts
I don't think the build was even really designed to win outright, as it seemed more to throw Jaedong off balance via the overlord kill -> 12 hatch cancel, for a slight economic advantage. Except Jaedong didn't cancel -> died -> much rage ensued.
But yes, it reminds me of Flash bunker rushing Stork on Katrina in the GOM finals some time ago, when everyone expected Flash to whip out The Flash Build. And Stork was clearly antsying to counter that build. Absolutely wonderful, but you wouldn't understand the beauty of it without understanding all the history that'd built up to that game.
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United States2186 Posts
That build isn't so much a cheese as a really good build on HBR. The only way it wouldn't work at all is if Jaedong didn't send his first overlord to that spot, which he definitely isn't going to do for no reason because having the ovie untouchable above their nat is so helpful and otherwise free of risk. It's all the more impressive because HBR is such a hard map for TvZ.
Also funny to note that of all the many Flash v Jaedong games only one has really been any kind of epic or close game that effectively lasted over 15 minutes (the MSL game on Loki). The rest have either been one person's prepared strategy winning, one player making a critical mistake and the other punishing it mercilessly, or Flash slumping and getting destroyed (Jaedong doesn't slump).
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Ok the build is either win fast or throw zerg into really big disadvantage so this is flash we are talking about he wont mess up in in either way.
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On December 27 2009 06:21 SkelA wrote:
Ok the build is either win fast or throw zerg into really big disadvantage so this is flash we are talking about he wont mess up in in either way.
So, as AntZ said, there is no possible counter to this build? TvZ on Neo HBR is a completely solved game, and Terrans should now have a 100% or near 100% winrate on it?
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EPT
