8. mini social experiment: "rape" at TL
the SC community suffers from this terrible male culture. I am talking about both
pervasive overt hostility towards women: they're "attention whores" and anyone who disagrees is a foolish "white knight", they shouldn't have their own
events, they're fat, they are actually masquerading men; and
(much more subtle) a "bro" atmosphere that makes it really difficult for most women to feel comfortable: questions about their underwear on a community
podcast, regular sex jokes even on official streams of the most "professional" SC2 events ("69 lolololol"), "tits or GTFO", inappropriate advances from dumb
and unsocialized male fans.
Well I'll touch on this one then.
1. The attention whore comment. The person didn't say it with any tact, but yes getting your boobs signed, and then posing for a picture to show everyone, means you want attention for it. Maybe the word attention whore is somehow a mysoginistic word in your mind, but to most it's not.
2. The white knight comment I agree with. Too much 4chan invasion going on in here.
3. I don't believe they should need their own events for Starcraft or competitive gaming. I can understand it in sports due to the physiology being different. Like tennis there are more sets for men because it is more suitable to the biology differences between men and women. But why is a strategy video game expected to be treated the same. The only reason there are female-only tournaments is because that will encourage female gamers that want to compete. But the reason why it encourages them is because the best ones aren't even in masters according to many of the tournament winners we have seen. Linda Liao is not some top 200 player in her region, but she is sponsored on Razer, not for achievements, but because she has an image, is a model, is female. Usually the comment of they don't need their events comes from the philosophical perspective that it actually hurts women to have woman-only game tournaments. It hurts the image of them, it further perpetuates the idea that they can't compete. Princess Aura from Super Smash Bros community (later went into League of Legends and Starcraft 2) got onto WCG Ultimate Gamer partially due to her "Regional Championship in Super Smash Bros Brawl". It was a female only side event at a regional tournament, with 7 entrants. What effect do you think that has on female gamers? Obviously a negative one. I commonly bring up how it should be equal because then women will actually be encouraged and challenged appropriately. If they aren't co-ed they have the option of settling, or the more militant feministic ones are turned off from competition altogether (I have known this kind in person).
4. I agree with the fat one. It's ridiculous to say they are fat, then again bro's call everyone on the internet fat. They are douchebags, it is what they say. So guess what, they aren't really discriminating specifically against women here.
5. I also agree with the "that's actually a guy" comments. I think I first heard that joke when the internet was INVENTED.
6. As far as the podcast comment, well those 4 women DECIDED to be involved in that show, knowing exactly what it was, and obviously had no problem with it, so I don't see how it could be predicted to be some sort of anti-female thing. Obviously they know who the audience is, 95-99% male, with the rest of that percent most likely the girlfriends of that male population. There ARE in fact hardly any girls on TL. That isn't the fault of TL's community, or women, or men, or whatever, it's just the demographic, it's a simple statistic. If the podcast is about girls panties for one question, you can't really blame it.
7. Wait someone got banned for calling them hot? They are hot, I don't really see how that is inappropriate. Hot was a derogatory term for women in the 70s-80s, it is 2011 now.
8. Yeah the horny quite a bit is stupid I agree.
some elements of this bro culture are dispensable; one that bugs me is using the word "rape" to describe in-game domination. I don't like reading that on TL and I can imagine women being even more turned off by it. I mean, misusing "rape" is not the end of the world, but it's also really easy to avoid. so a while ago I spent some time during a lecture searching for "rape" in SC2 General and sending this douchey PM to about 50 users I turned up using the word:
(this PM doesn't come from me in my capacity as a mod or anything.)
I just wanted to point out that you might want to reconsider using the word "rape" in this context. the word's just harsh and extremely loaded, and it can be easily substituted out for something that doesn't conjure images of a heinous crime. plus if you never use "rape" like this again, I guarantee you will come off as more intelligent and conscientious.
just a thought! happy posting!
the tone is probably too condescending (tbh I find it difficult to respect someone who casually uses "rape" to describe a video game battle) but it gets the point across. Now about how TLers responded.
I expected most posters to tell me to fuck off, but it turns out that something like 95% of people throwing around "rape" at TL are just lazy inconsiderates who aren't at all attached to the word. most responses were really cool and went something like these:
Thanks for the well-mannered and thoughtful PM. I'll think twice next time. On average the TL community is extremely high quality compared to your average forum filled with trolls and jerkoffs, and I appreciate your effort.
its gotten to be a habit but I'll try to avoid using that anymore didnt mean to offend people
(ok so this guy might be missing the point a little bit — the word isn't overtly offensive)
Glancing at the post, you're definitely right. I'll substitute the word for something else in the future.
Thanks.
Ya... sorry about that. I had like a 10 lose streak against Terrans and in my sort of rage post I got a bit carried away >_>
The few posters who objected to my PM complained that misusing "rape" doesn't actually give off an inconsiderate moron vibe, or that they don't care if it does:
The ability to speak or write in text so as to not offend or provoke others do not make anyone more intelligent.
meeh, you put effort in your pm so out of respect for your time invested to tell me to sensor my use of the word rape I have edited the linked post to be more pg13.
I couldn't really care less about sounding smart or not.
If my language offended you i'm sorry.
I only got into any sort of discussion with one respondent. I was sort of pigeonholed by that one condescending sentence in my initial PM, and didn't argue effectively at all. actually I presented my position terribly. but it'd be unfair to pick the argument back up in public so I'll just paste our conversation here. I think it got a little interesting because he kept working in his age:
As for the stint on rape. What about when rape is used in the context of "the vikings raped and pillaged the land" in historical context or as used in historical fiction, creative non-fiction. I mean to me, the culture of gaming has embraced it. I come from the super smash community, and if you look around on allisbrawl.com there are about 100+ girls' profiles that have them writing the word rape in this context. Statistically 3/4 of them have been raped before. At least. So what I must deduce from that is that a word's definition is in it's contextual application within a sentence or a thought, also derived from the contextual implications of the person who is saying it, where they are saying it, how they are saying it, about which subject they are speaking of.
To just say it's offensive, and that's that, is ridiculous and intellectually lazy. I would love to hear what you think about the word niggardly, as you may or may not know, it is a very controversial word. But only due to the flagrant ignorance of others, or the taking out of context, it's use when quoting others. Rape is defined not only as a act of violence towards someone else using sex as a weapon, it is
also...
an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.
Archaic . the act of seizing and carrying off by force.
The video game community makes it so blatantly obvious that they use the word in the context of either the Archaic terminology or the violent seizure of a countryside. It's slang derived from that use. But if we look towards the verbal use (above-mentioned was the use as a noun) which most gamers absolutely do use the word in the context you have mentioned...
to plunder (a place); despoil.
to seize, take, or carry off by force.
Well that's even more interesting, once again, as a verb in relation to an object (the other person's strategy or play) it fits quite nicely. Not a very nice word in our society today, but on the internet it has a different meaning. You have no idea that all women are turned off to gaming due to this. I have been to many tournaments for super smash bros brawl where there are foul-mouthed unladylike female gamers who will beat someone and say that they raped him. Too many times have I heard this to maintain the position that I formerly shared with you.
To even be so derogatory as to say that 95% of the people using the word were lazy inconsiderates, that seems rather pompous to me. It sounds like people that have a different view of the world, or disagree with you are talked down about in public blogs that are featured... It seems judgey, presumptuous. I mean you went on a rant about how women don't feel secure here, yet every single one of your topics that are numbered, these special topics like this one, start off with a woman being paraded around as a sexual object, modeling in skimpy clothing. I'm not one to judge, why you start your post with what appears the E-quivalent of half naked woman posters in the garage of a 50 year old mechanic, but to go around telling other people that they are making women uncomfortable with standards you have set, and then to hypocritically disobey those rules you seem to be so adamant about. I'm not one to judge you on that, only one to factually expose the hypocrisy of it.
Source for my claims about JWD's value for women as people and not objects can be found in the first video of almost all of his numbered blog features. Number 2, the first video stands out as extremely offensive and denegrating to women, but to each their own. I found it highly entertaining, very funny. Great music too.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=122609
(In this video from the blog post above you find the trucker, our hero, lick raping a whole limo full of women, to the point of their clothes being ripped off, and them being thrown to the road at high speed, male on male rape, male on female rape to the point of killing her by destroying her intestings, but yet JWD is the man to uphold the plight of women here at Teamliquid)
As always, love your blogs and your work, keep it up.
After reading through the topic I will reply to some things in the thread here as not to clog the post.
On April 11 2011 13:32 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 13:24 -yoda wrote:
you should take off "own" as well from that list if your so bent on removing words on the internet that target a selective crowd. yeah and demolish should go too. for the construction workers!
Well own would probably be very offensive to those that have been slaves, slavery is still prevalent around the world in many countries, and there are many forms of slavery still afflicting immigrants within america, and european countries (sex-slaves, children bought from other countries by the very wealthy to clean in their homes, etc...). To act so dismissive about this in an attempt to appeal to ridicule, is... interesting...
On April 11 2011 08:30 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:18 Blyadischa wrote:
I think the word rape and gay have transformed from their dictionary definitions. The problem is not that they have transformed, but people use it in their new socially accepted definition without being able to specifically define the word. The result is cognitive dissonance which results in a merging of the two definitions, this is bad. I think the solution of the issue is not to try and make people discontinue their use of such words (that task is much too difficult), but rather help them be aware that they are using it in a different context and to disassociate the physical act of raping and the act of "raping" someone in a game of SC2.
let's say for the purpose of argument that it's true that within the gaming community "rape" and "gay" do not actually have anything to do with rape or gayness (a position that's absurd on its face imo, but again, for the sake of argument). even if this was so, it's still not right to misuse the words because other, non-gaming type people wouldn't appreciate this "transformation" from dictionary definitions. and these people (mainstream regular people) are all people I wish wouldn't hesitate at getting into SC2 and its community. bottom line: it makes no sense to say "gamers talk differently so it's ok" when we all wish this game/scene/community would grow to include lots of people who aren't now gamers
People in the MMA community commonly say someone else got "fucked up". I don't see how this is any different. I agree, the commentators should not say "rape", but forum members, I guess if you make a rule not to say it that's fine, but then to try and extend your hand to control every fan to not say rape, to the point of you messaging users and telling them that they are somehow sensitively inferior to you? I think that is pushing it. Let people say what they want to say within reason, the use of rape is not being used to make light of the act of violence (which you seem to have an idea that this would offend women mostly, when many victims of rape are men too), and everyone in the gaming community knows this. Would someone really come in here after seeing NASL, or the TSL, and go in the forum, see the word rape being used in this context, and completely run away and never be into esports ever again? I find that very hard to believe.
On April 11 2011 08:47 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:39 DCLXVI wrote:On April 11 2011 08:30 JWD wrote:On April 11 2011 08:18 Blyadischa wrote:
I think the word rape and gay have transformed from their dictionary definitions. The problem is not that they have transformed, but people use it in their new socially accepted definition without being able to specifically define the word. The result is cognitive dissonance which results in a merging of the two definitions, this is bad. I think the solution of the issue is not to try and make people discontinue their use of such words (that task is much too difficult), but rather help them be aware that they are using it in a different context and to disassociate the physical act of raping and the act of "raping" someone in a game of SC2.
let's say for the purpose of argument that it's true that within the gaming community "rape" and "gay" do not actually have anything to do with rape or gayness (a position that's absurd on its face imo, but again, for the sake of argument). even if this was so, it's still not right to misuse the words because other, non-gaming type people wouldn't appreciate this "transformation" from dictionary definitions. and these people (mainstream regular people) are all people I wish wouldn't hesitate at getting into SC2 and its community. bottom line: it makes no sense to say "gamers talk differently so it's ok" when we all wish this game/scene/community would grow to include lots of people who aren't now gamers I personally use the words rape and gay with alternate meanings but only with a few very close friends. None of us have any connections to the words and feel free to use them to describe gaming situations. Is that still absurd that we can use these words with different meanings? I understand what you mean; you read my post to suggest that it's absurd for anyone to, e.g., say that hellions rape slow lings and not mean anything having to do with nonconsensual sex. That's not my position. I can sort of see how it might be possible for someone to use or read "rape" without himself immediately thinking of rape. But that doesn't mean the word has become completely divorced from its original meaning — the letters are still sitting there and 90% of the time they mean something different than a convincing win in a SC2 game. So: (and this is what I'm saying) it's absurd to say that the word "rape" might not actually have anything to do with rape. The image/allusion will always be there.
You are suggesting that the first use of the word rape was for the act of violence sexually towards someone else? That is incorrect, the "original meaning" was to plunder. It was an act of violence that was horrific, but not as much a personal one, more like pirates coming to land and burning houses, stealing things from buildings. Since that is like a fairy tale to our sensitivities today, if the original meaning is what matters most to you, and that it can't be divorced, the word rape shouldn't offend you.
On April 11 2011 14:21 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 14:17 chobopeon wrote:cheers. another masterpiece. mightve seen this already but i had a hell of a time in a thread a few months back discussing the word rape on this very forum. it turns out that people cling deeply to the word. you have a red name so you have a different experience when approaching people about these sorts of things. i don't know that that the thread is even worth a read but suffice to say, heyoka nailed it with the closing post: "I'm embarrassed to be part of a community where this somehow generated heated debate." thanks man. yeah you know, I've been on the defensive a good bit in this thread but I'm not sure the onus should be on anyone to explain why misusing the word isn't quite right. shouldn't it be the other way around? like, with so many great alternatives to "rape" that aren't at all questionable, why insist on continuing to use the word? I don't understand. I hadn't seen that thread. appreciate the support.
The reason why you are on the defensive is because you made clear judgments about those who you disagree with morally on this. You claimed them to be douches, etc... I mean it just makes a bunch of people who have any sort of perception of ethics, the english language, as given to them through college classes, etc... to want to debate you on the logical missteps you have made.
On April 11 2011 09:27 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 09:11 bjornkavist wrote:Turns out that Kate Upton was also a great musician when she was younger too. She's lovely and talented  . Love your blog man keep it up! yeah man, I read about that on her wikipedia page. French horn I think? just gives me an even bigger crush. thanks!
Sounds like an inappropriate advance towards a female, by the standards of the 50s and 40s.
On April 11 2011 09:47 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 09:42 WinByDefault wrote:On April 11 2011 09:19 JWD wrote:On April 11 2011 09:11 WinByDefault wrote:
Wait, so you shouldnt use "rape" because it is a heinous crime and might offend some people, but acceptable alternatives are "murder", "kill" and "massacre"?
If you don't think that the word "rape" should be used, then ok, but you kind of contradict your justifacation when you say that its perfectly acceptable to use those other words.
dang, I was waiting for this one. yes, that rape is a heinous crime is one part of the reason it's probably uncouth to use it to describe a SC game. but maybe it was a mistake to mention that reason, because now you've fixated on it as the only or primary reason. It's obviously not. "rape" is differentiable from "murder" etc. because (1) it has nothing to do with what's actually happening in the game (2) outside a select club, it's not accepted to mean "trounce" or "beat convincingly" and (3) it implicates one sex as victim. (come to think of it, your same point about "kill" and "murder" could also be made about "beat". there's clearly more going on here.) In response to your points: (1) You're right, but does that mean its unnacceptable to use "kill" in relation to a video game without violence like a sports game, or even in an actual sport. (2) Actually, I disagree with you on this one. All my friends, be they male, female, gamers or non-gamers would understand what I ment by "rape" if I used it in this context. (3) Guys can be raped too. Yes, it is mostly girls, but don't ignore that guys can be raped too if you are trying to teach people to be sensitive. (2) I didn't say or suggest they would not understand. I said "not accepted to mean"; as in "beat convincingly" is not an accepted meaning of "rape" among most people. (3) sure. But the implication (what the word "rape" is generally understood to imply, absent any clarification) is a male perpetrator and female victim.
Interesting on that ignorance of the fact that for some reason the definition of the word that you use for your argument doesn't include "the implication is male on female btw".
|
EPT
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/opuzY.png)
