Julianna Barwick is a solo artist who makes immensely complex music using just her voice and a loop station. her songs are vast soundscapes that build as she adds layers of singing — layers upon layers upon layers that are each pleasant but together overwhelmingly beautiful. (the genre is "ambient" but her stuff is almost too powerful to label so.) close your eyes and concentrate on tracking each melody, or just get lost in the depth of her sound.
this EP Florine is Barwick's first release. she's followed it up with a LP The Magic Place, out last month and just as fantastic. a must-buy if you like the EP.
"Anjos", "Bode", and "Cloudbank" are my favorite tracks here.
in the vein of: Grouper, Sigur Rós, Enya (? nobody's making music quite like Barwick's, really)
briefcase/bag. a bit stumped here. will a Filson be too casual?
around five nice simple ties. wtb 1 chocolate knit
summer weight trousers, for the hottest days
around five nice simple pocket squares
dress socks. mostly navy some charcoal and black
dress shirts. at least 2 white and 2 blue
ofc, that means several dress shirts. I've bought a few made-to-measure through Modern Tailor and am pretty satisfied (pic, shirt needs a pressing though). Modern Tailor has lots of options, excellent service (for example: they emailed me a photo of my first shirt before sending it out), and is very affordable ($19 on blue oxford if it's your first shirt, other good fabrics on sale at $40, and an extra 20% off (max $20 discount) your order available here).
here are some ultra basic pointers to keep in mind when shopping for and wearing dress shirts, whether custom made or off the rack.
how casual the shirt is depends mostly on the collar and cuff. button-down collars are most casual, and can be worn with or without a tie. point, spread, and cutaway collars are more formal. imo these collars should always be worn with a tie and jacket (jacket at minimum. e.g.), because otherwise they tend to spread too wide or unevenly, and look terrible (like Owen Wilson's collar here — Adrien Brody's looks alright though). french cuffs are far more formal (cum pretentious; I'm steering clear as a low-level employee) than button cuffs, and I think rounded corners are a bit more casual than cut.
note that the dude in the picture above (mostexerent.tumblr.com, a guy who really knows how to wear a shirt) is wearing a button-down shirt but has left the buttons unbuttoned. this is unorthodox but kind of cool I think — assuming your collar has the structure to support itself sans stays and you are wearing a jacket and tie.
when trying on shirts you must gauge fit by wearing them with a jacket. so if you go shirt-shopping, bring along your best-fitting blazer. the two crucial areas are where your shirt is visible while you are wearing a jacket: the sleeves/cuff and the neck/collar/upper chest.
most important is how your shirt interacts with your jacket right below your face, when your jacket is buttoned. a few things to look for: (1) the points of your collar should be just long enough and just far apart enough that their outer edges fit comfortably under your lapels. I prefer cutaway and spread collars for this purpose. the only exception to this rule is if you are trying to make a statement with a point collar like this guy (but if you're dressing at that level you do not need to read these super basic tips here anyway). (2) the shirt should lay flat along your upper chest. if it's unpressed or too big around your chest you'll get wrinkles between your lapels that will make the area look too busy. (3) the collar should be high enough that it's a quarter to half inch above your jacket at the back of your neck. this is mostly about the fit of your jacket; just eyeball it. The above photo is all of these things done just right. here is my attempt with a "Cut Away Medium" collar shirt from Modern Tailor.
second most important is having an appropriate amount of shirt cuff extending from under the cuff of your jacket. getting this just right depends on the fit of the entire shirt and is difficult to do, but will make you look super sharp. (jacket sleeves longer than shirt sleeves is a doofy look that makes your suit jacket seem an overcoat.) when trying on a shirt, be sure that there is enough give in the sleeves that you can bend your elbow without the cuff riding up — if the cuff rides up it'll annoy the hell out of you by always getting caught too far up the sleeve of your jacket. here are some examples of proper shirt/jacket cuff length: 123. and my attempt
check to be sure that the sleeve of your shirt is beginning right at the edge of your shoulder. since American clothes are sized for fat weenies, if you're a young dude with fairly broad shoulders you need to be careful to avoid shirts with shoulder seams that will rest on top of your shoulder (too close to your neck). if shirts that accommodate your shoulders are too baggy around the waist, take them to a tailor and have them darted. it's a cheap, quick, and not risky alteration.
your first dress shirts should be white and blue. goes with everything.
if you are buying a m2m shirt, consider customizations you might not have the luxury of off the rack. for example: I got my left cuff .5 inches wider, to accommodate my watch.
it is never acceptable to wear a dress shirt (cf. a casual button-up shirt, like a chambray work shirt or oxford) untucked.
one thing I neglected when putting in my measurements at Modern Tailor: slimmer shirt sleeves require higher armholes. just be careful that you aren't pulling your shirt away from your body when you raise your arm.
Burial released dubstep "album of the decade" Untrue in 2007 and then sort of disappeared. he's just now surprised fans with this three-song EP, which is right in the style of Untrue: chopped up pitch-shifted voice samples and atmospheric synths driven by lilting dark bass grind
fun fact: Burial went to the same London school as Four Tet (who he has done some great collabs with, see below) and Hot Chip
in the vein of: Four Tet, In Rainbows Radiohead, James Blake, Nosaj Thing
See also: "Moth", the better (phenomenally good) half of Burial's 2009 12'' with Four Tet "Mirror", a taste of his more recent collaboration with Four Tet and Thom Yorke
8. mini social experiment: "rape" at TL
the SC community suffers from this terrible male culture. I am talking about both
(much more subtle) a "bro" atmosphere that makes it really difficult for most women to feel comfortable: questions about their underwear on a community podcast, regular sex jokes even on official streams of the most "professional" SC2 events ("69 lolololol"), "tits or GTFO", inappropriateadvances from dumb and unsocialized male fans.
some elements of this bro culture are dispensable; one that bugs me is using the word "rape" to describe in-game domination. I don't like reading that on TL and I can imagine women being even more turned off by it. I mean, misusing "rape" is not the end of the world, but it's also really easy to avoid. so a while ago I spent some time during a lecture searching for "rape" in SC2 General and sending this douchey PM to about 50 users I turned up using the word:
(this PM doesn't come from me in my capacity as a mod or anything.)
I just wanted to point out that you might want to reconsider using the word "rape" in this context. the word's just harsh and extremely loaded, and it can be easily substituted out for something that doesn't conjure images of a heinous crime. plus if you never use "rape" like this again, I guarantee you will come off as more intelligent and conscientious.
just a thought! happy posting!
the tone is probably too condescending (tbh I find it difficult to respect someone who casually uses "rape" to describe a video game battle) but it gets the point across. Now about how TLers responded.
I expected most posters to tell me to fuck off, but it turns out that something like 95% of people throwing around "rape" at TL are just lazy inconsiderates who aren't at all attached to the word. most responses were really cool and went something like these:
Thanks for the well-mannered and thoughtful PM. I'll think twice next time. On average the TL community is extremely high quality compared to your average forum filled with trolls and jerkoffs, and I appreciate your effort.
its gotten to be a habit but I'll try to avoid using that anymore didnt mean to offend people
(ok so this guy might be missing the point a little bit — the word isn't overtly offensive)
Glancing at the post, you're definitely right. I'll substitute the word for something else in the future.
Thanks.
Ya... sorry about that. I had like a 10 lose streak against Terrans and in my sort of rage post I got a bit carried away >_>
The few posters who objected to my PM complained that misusing "rape" doesn't actually give off an inconsiderate moron vibe, or that they don't care if it does:
The ability to speak or write in text so as to not offend or provoke others do not make anyone more intelligent.
meeh, you put effort in your pm so out of respect for your time invested to tell me to sensor my use of the word rape I have edited the linked post to be more pg13.
I couldn't really care less about sounding smart or not. If my language offended you i'm sorry.
I only got into any sort of discussion with one respondent. I was sort of pigeonholed by that one condescending sentence in my initial PM, and didn't argue effectively at all. actually I presented my position terribly. but it'd be unfair to pick the argument back up in public so I'll just paste our conversation here. I think it got a little interesting because he kept working in his age:
Original Message From -----: I'll keep it in mind. I'm sure you know it's a pretty common word to describe games where one player comes off as very outplayed, and I hope you know that's the only context I would ever feel comfortable using the word.
Really appreciate all the work you mods do.
I'm sure you can look at my profile and see my age though, so there's really no need to give me a guarantee as to what behavior will make me come off in what way... It comes off as a little condescending to be honest, we're all adults here.
----------------------------------------- Original Message From JWD: oh I'm completely aware my PM is condescending. that's a product of the point I'm trying to make here: by using the word "rape" inappropriately, you're giving me (and whoever else might read your posts) a basis to treat you condescendingly — a high ground. why give that high ground?
and further I think it is necessary (well, necessary is such a strong word — but certainly important to the point I'm trying to make here) to guarantee that not continuing to use "rape" this way will make you seem smarter. that's a major reason I don't use the word...and I thought it was a good idea to present some reason why a purely amoral and self-interested person would avoid it. on online forums you are (unfortunately?) the words you use.
and above all, like I said in my first PM, this is just a thought. if you truly believe that "rape" is the all-things-considered best word to describe one player outplaying another, then by all means continue to use it!
----------------------------------------- Original Message From -----: It's probably safer to just look at the age of someone, and then think to yourself: "Hm... Is this guy old enough to realize the consequences of his actions?" before you start teaching them about how the internet works.
I'm more than willing to get in line, and I love teamliquid, but your attitude bothers me for obvious reasons. You should be more friendly.
----------------------------------------- Original Message From JWD: I'm trying to be as friendly as possible, so I'm sort of sad to read that I'm really sorry that I have come off as hostile.
I am definitely not trying to teach you how the internet works; rather, from the tone of your PMs I would guess that you're more an expert than I am. and I don't think this is about "getting in line" at all, both because I'm taking a minority position at TL and because I'm not arguing that you should do anything simply to conform.
it's precisely because you can understand the consequences of your actions that I think it's worthwhile having this conversation!
-----------------------------------------
Hey man, I appreciate the apology. Let me finally reply with just a thought of my own: If you wanna come off less hostile and annoying, in the future don't send deliberately condescending messages!
what I learned through this PM party is that "you will sound smarter and more considerate if you do not misuse 'rape'" is a hard sell and I probably should've instead just tried to convince that avoiding the word will make TL feel like a nicer more welcoming place.
so: if you're in that majority of posters who simply doesn't think about his word choice, please think harder! consider whether your female friends/mother/sisters would be drawn in by a bunch of dudes that talk like you post.
this is just my personal blog, where I post music I am digging and terrible photos I take with my phone. I mention it because in coming months I will not have the time to write many of these posts at TL, and so you might refer to it if you're looking for something to listen to.
ok so not the best BONUS!, but including it makes me feel less guilty about not keeping this blog series regular
Most of the internet suffers from a terrible hostility towards women and just because it exists doesn't in any way make it okay. Thanks for touching on that and as always, well-written.
On April 11 2011 07:30 arcfyr wrote: Most of the internet suffers from a terrible hostility towards women and just because it exists doesn't in any way make it okay.
too true. threads involving women here are disgusting, and this is a good forum
Awesome, thanks for sharing I love reading these blog posts!!!
BTW the Katarmari Hack had me laughing/smiling for a good 5 minutes straight, love it!
Edit: I also took the link to your blog, and actually got hooked on the very first song on there. Corduroi - “My Dear”. Listened to it twice already. Again, thanks for sharing man.
This is sick Also, does anyone know what type of shoes he starts wearing at ~ :56? You can see them really nicely at about 1:20 after he does that ill handstand
On April 11 2011 07:48 Kazragore wrote: This is sick Also, does anyone know what type of shoes he starts wearing at ~ :56? You can see them really nicely at about 1:20 after he does that ill handstand
Love your blogs JWD, keep it up
thanks dude
about the shoes: based on the circular rubber on the outside of his shoe I am 95% sure they are Generic Surplus, which makes a ton of different high top sneaks that could fit the bill (though I didn't see these in stock at their online store)
I think the word rape and gay have transformed from their dictionary definitions. The problem is not that they have transformed, but people use it in their new socially accepted definition without being able to specifically define the word. The result is cognitive dissonance which results in a merging of the two definitions, this is bad. I think the solution of the issue is not to try and make people discontinue their use of such words (that task is much too difficult), but rather help them be aware that they are using it in a different context and to disassociate the physical act of raping and the act of "raping" someone in a game of SC2.
On April 11 2011 08:18 Blyadischa wrote: I think the word rape and gay have transformed from their dictionary definitions. The problem is not that they have transformed, but people use it in their new socially accepted definition without being able to specifically define the word. The result is cognitive dissonance which results in a merging of the two definitions, this is bad. I think the solution of the issue is not to try and make people discontinue their use of such words (that task is much too difficult), but rather help them be aware that they are using it in a different context and to disassociate the physical act of raping and the act of "raping" someone in a game of SC2.
let's say for the purpose of argument that it's true that within the gaming community "rape" and "gay" do not actually have anything to do with rape or gayness (a position that's absurd on its face imo, but again, for the sake of argument).
even if this was so, it's still not right to misuse the words because other, non-gaming type people wouldn't appreciate this "transformation" from dictionary definitions. and these people (mainstream regular people) are all people I wish wouldn't hesitate at getting into SC2 and its community.
bottom line: it makes no sense to say "gamers talk differently so it's ok" when we all wish this game/scene/community would grow to include lots of people who aren't now gamers
On April 11 2011 08:18 Blyadischa wrote: I think the word rape and gay have transformed from their dictionary definitions. The problem is not that they have transformed, but people use it in their new socially accepted definition without being able to specifically define the word. The result is cognitive dissonance which results in a merging of the two definitions, this is bad. I think the solution of the issue is not to try and make people discontinue their use of such words (that task is much too difficult), but rather help them be aware that they are using it in a different context and to disassociate the physical act of raping and the act of "raping" someone in a game of SC2.
let's say for the purpose of argument that it's true that within the gaming community "rape" and "gay" do not actually have anything to do with rape or gayness (a position that's absurd on its face imo, but again, for the sake of argument).
even if this was so, it's still not right to misuse the words because other, non-gaming type people wouldn't appreciate this "transformation" from dictionary definitions. and these people (mainstream regular people) are all people I wish wouldn't hesitate at getting into SC2 and its community.
bottom line: it makes no sense to say "gamers talk differently so it's ok" when we all wish this game/scene/community would grow to include lots of people who aren't now gamers
I personally use the words rape and gay with alternate meanings but only with a few very close friends. None of us have any connections to the words and feel free to use them to describe gaming situations. Is that still absurd that we can use these words with different meanings?
On April 11 2011 08:18 Blyadischa wrote: I think the word rape and gay have transformed from their dictionary definitions. The problem is not that they have transformed, but people use it in their new socially accepted definition without being able to specifically define the word. The result is cognitive dissonance which results in a merging of the two definitions, this is bad. I think the solution of the issue is not to try and make people discontinue their use of such words (that task is much too difficult), but rather help them be aware that they are using it in a different context and to disassociate the physical act of raping and the act of "raping" someone in a game of SC2.
let's say for the purpose of argument that it's true that within the gaming community "rape" and "gay" do not actually have anything to do with rape or gayness (a position that's absurd on its face imo, but again, for the sake of argument).
even if this was so, it's still not right to misuse the words because other, non-gaming type people wouldn't appreciate this "transformation" from dictionary definitions. and these people (mainstream regular people) are all people I wish wouldn't hesitate at getting into SC2 and its community.
bottom line: it makes no sense to say "gamers talk differently so it's ok" when we all wish this game/scene/community would grow to include lots of people who aren't now gamers
I personally use the words rape and gay with alternate meanings but only with a few very close friends. None of us have any connections to the words and feel free to use them to describe gaming situations. Is that still absurd that we can use these words with different meanings?
I understand what you mean; you read my post to suggest that it's absurd for anyone to, e.g., say that hellions rape slow lings and not mean anything having to do with nonconsensual sex. That's not my position. I can sort of see how it might be possible for someone to use or read "rape" without himself immediately thinking of rape. But that doesn't mean the word has become completely divorced from its original meaning — the letters are still sitting there and 90% of the time they mean something different than a convincing win in a SC2 game. So: (and this is what I'm saying) it's absurd to say that the word "rape" might not actually have anything to do with rape. The image/allusion will always be there.
How is the word "rape" offensive? I know it's hard to convey tone over the internet, but I'm not saying this in a challenging way at all. I'm just curious as to what aspect of the word turns people off.
On April 11 2011 08:48 Datum wrote: How is the word "rape" offensive? I know it's hard to convey tone over the internet, but I'm not saying this in a challenging way at all. I'm just curious as to what aspect of the word turns people off.
that's the thing; I don't find it offensive and am not saying it should be seen that way. "offensive" is a strong and loaded word. anyone who is actually seriously offended by the misuse of "rape" is probably being oversensitive.
but I think misuse of "rape" is a symptom and element of gaming being an insular ultra-male culture, and surely must make some people external to that culture (most women, I'm thinking) uneasy about entering it (not offended but just uncomfortable).
I can sympathize with/buy that uneasiness because despite being around SC for a long time I still cringe whenever I see "rape" misused, and sometimes think "man, there might be a lot of sort of insensitive people in this community, who don't consider how others might perceive their words". it's not a good feeling.
On April 11 2011 08:18 Blyadischa wrote: I think the word rape and gay have transformed from their dictionary definitions. The problem is not that they have transformed, but people use it in their new socially accepted definition without being able to specifically define the word. The result is cognitive dissonance which results in a merging of the two definitions, this is bad. I think the solution of the issue is not to try and make people discontinue their use of such words (that task is much too difficult), but rather help them be aware that they are using it in a different context and to disassociate the physical act of raping and the act of "raping" someone in a game of SC2.
let's say for the purpose of argument that it's true that within the gaming community "rape" and "gay" do not actually have anything to do with rape or gayness (a position that's absurd on its face imo, but again, for the sake of argument).
even if this was so, it's still not right to misuse the words because other, non-gaming type people wouldn't appreciate this "transformation" from dictionary definitions. and these people (mainstream regular people) are all people I wish wouldn't hesitate at getting into SC2 and its community.
bottom line: it makes no sense to say "gamers talk differently so it's ok" when we all wish this game/scene/community would grow to include lots of people who aren't now gamers
Well of course I don't think saying rape or gay is good around people who do not understand the definition that has evolved in certain social contexts, but I am taking about amongst people who do understand.
edit: saw your post
1. Sure it may make women uncomfortable, but it is a must for complete assimilation of the word's new definition. You won't be able to stop the transformation of the word, so why not encourage a use of it that is considerate of the previous definition and certain social contexts in which it would be completely inappropriate for the word's use?
2. People aren't insensitive about other people's feelings when they use rape. We use rape because it is understood that the social context of the internet is largely composed of men, and we know that 95% of the people we are talking to understand what we mean when we say 'rape'. I would not use the word when the word isn't understood and would be offensive, of course, but to say that we should stop using it for a few individuals that may be offended is ridiculous. The definition is part of the culture, and something that isn't hard to pick up on.
On April 11 2011 08:18 Blyadischa wrote: I think the word rape and gay have transformed from their dictionary definitions. The problem is not that they have transformed, but people use it in their new socially accepted definition without being able to specifically define the word. The result is cognitive dissonance which results in a merging of the two definitions, this is bad. I think the solution of the issue is not to try and make people discontinue their use of such words (that task is much too difficult), but rather help them be aware that they are using it in a different context and to disassociate the physical act of raping and the act of "raping" someone in a game of SC2.
let's say for the purpose of argument that it's true that within the gaming community "rape" and "gay" do not actually have anything to do with rape or gayness (a position that's absurd on its face imo, but again, for the sake of argument).
even if this was so, it's still not right to misuse the words because other, non-gaming type people wouldn't appreciate this "transformation" from dictionary definitions. and these people (mainstream regular people) are all people I wish wouldn't hesitate at getting into SC2 and its community.
bottom line: it makes no sense to say "gamers talk differently so it's ok" when we all wish this game/scene/community would grow to include lots of people who aren't now gamers
Well of course I don't think saying rape or gay is good around people who do not understand the definition that has evolved in certain social contexts, but I am taking about amongst people who do understand.
but on a public forum you're never only around "people who do understand". this is especially true of TL as SC2 becomes increasingly mainstream.
On April 11 2011 08:48 Datum wrote: How is the word "rape" offensive? I know it's hard to convey tone over the internet, but I'm not saying this in a challenging way at all. I'm just curious as to what aspect of the word turns people off.
I think the idea that using the word rape to celebrate dominance is misogynistic and disrespectful. Rape is fucking terrible. Yet you might think otherwise on internet message boards where the word is mostly used like this: "LOL destiny just RAPED that terran with banes! AWESOME!" To an outsider who isn't well versed in gaming lingo, using rape like that can be offensive -- and also alienating.
On April 11 2011 08:18 Blyadischa wrote: I think the word rape and gay have transformed from their dictionary definitions. The problem is not that they have transformed, but people use it in their new socially accepted definition without being able to specifically define the word. The result is cognitive dissonance which results in a merging of the two definitions, this is bad. I think the solution of the issue is not to try and make people discontinue their use of such words (that task is much too difficult), but rather help them be aware that they are using it in a different context and to disassociate the physical act of raping and the act of "raping" someone in a game of SC2.
let's say for the purpose of argument that it's true that within the gaming community "rape" and "gay" do not actually have anything to do with rape or gayness (a position that's absurd on its face imo, but again, for the sake of argument).
even if this was so, it's still not right to misuse the words because other, non-gaming type people wouldn't appreciate this "transformation" from dictionary definitions. and these people (mainstream regular people) are all people I wish wouldn't hesitate at getting into SC2 and its community.
bottom line: it makes no sense to say "gamers talk differently so it's ok" when we all wish this game/scene/community would grow to include lots of people who aren't now gamers
I personally use the words rape and gay with alternate meanings but only with a few very close friends. None of us have any connections to the words and feel free to use them to describe gaming situations. Is that still absurd that we can use these words with different meanings?
I understand what you mean; you read my post to suggest that it's absurd for anyone to, e.g., say that hellions rape slow lings and not mean anything having to do with nonconsensual sex. That's not my position. I can sort of see how it might be possible for someone to use or read "rape" without himself immediately thinking of rape. But that doesn't mean the word has become completely divorced from its original meaning — the letters are still sitting there and 90% of the time they mean something different than a convincing win in a SC2 game. So: (and this is what I'm saying) it's absurd to say that the word "rape" might not actually have anything to do with rape. The image/allusion will always be there.
alright, perhaps try to not say things that you don't believe in i guess? I was just pointing out an example of how those words can be divorced from their meanings (in between friends, not with strangers especially online) because you said that such a thing was: "(a position that's absurd on its face imo)" this isn't really related to your argument/crusade but i nitpick on details
Wait, so you shouldnt use "rape" because it is a heinous crime and might offend some people, but acceptable alternatives are "murder", "kill" and "massacre"?
If you don't think that the word "rape" should be used, then ok, but you kind of contradict your justifacation when you say that its perfectly acceptable to use those other words.
On April 11 2011 09:06 DCLXVI wrote: I was just pointing out an example of how those words can be divorced from their meanings (in between friends, not with strangers especially online) because you said that such a thing was: "(a position that's absurd on its face imo)"
you did not point out an example of how those words can be divorced from their meanings. Again: when a gamer dude says to his gamer dude buddy "I totally raped you that game," even if it is true that he means nothing having to do with rape, the word "raped" is not divorced from its meaning. The image/allusion remains and will be perceived by most onlookers, even if it wasn't in the gamer's mind as he spoke.
On April 11 2011 09:11 WinByDefault wrote: Wait, so you shouldnt use "rape" because it is a heinous crime and might offend some people, but acceptable alternatives are "murder", "kill" and "massacre"?
If you don't think that the word "rape" should be used, then ok, but you kind of contradict your justifacation when you say that its perfectly acceptable to use those other words.
dang, I was waiting for this one.
yes, that rape is a heinous crime is one part of the reason it's probably uncouth to use it to describe a SC game. but maybe it was a mistake to mention that reason, because now you've fixated on it as the only or primary reason. It's obviously not. "rape" is differentiable from "murder" etc. because (1) it has nothing to do with what's actually happening in the game (2) outside a select club, it's not accepted to mean "trounce" or "beat convincingly" and (3) it implicates one sex as victim.
(come to think of it, your same point about "kill" and "murder" could also be made about "beat". there's clearly more going on here.)
On April 11 2011 09:06 DCLXVI wrote: I was just pointing out an example of how those words can be divorced from their meanings (in between friends, not with strangers especially online) because you said that such a thing was: "(a position that's absurd on its face imo)"
you did not point out an example of how those words can be divorced from their meanings. Again: when a gamer dude says to his gamer dude buddy "I totally raped you that game," even if it is true that he means nothing having to do with rape, the word "raped" is not divorced from its meaning. The image/allusion remains and will be perceived by most onlookers, even if it wasn't in the gamer's mind as he spoke.
not if the only onlookers are "gamer dude buddies" who also use alternate meaning to the words. I don't think about the real meanings to the words and I doubt my friends do, we have just made them become different words. There is a reason why I only use alternate meanings around certain people and there is no one else who hears that.
On April 11 2011 09:06 DCLXVI wrote: I was just pointing out an example of how those words can be divorced from their meanings (in between friends, not with strangers especially online) because you said that such a thing was: "(a position that's absurd on its face imo)"
you did not point out an example of how those words can be divorced from their meanings. Again: when a gamer dude says to his gamer dude buddy "I totally raped you that game," even if it is true that he means nothing having to do with rape, the word "raped" is not divorced from its meaning. The image/allusion remains and will be perceived by most onlookers, even if it wasn't in the gamer's mind as he spoke.
not if the only onlookers are "gamer dude buddies" who also use alternate meaning to the words. I don't think about the real meanings to the words and I doubt my friends do, we have just made them become different words. There is a reason why I only use alternate meanings around certain people and there is no one else who hears that.
Sure, but as I mentioned in a post above, it's never the case on a huge public forum (e.g. TL) that you're only surrounded by people you can be sure think exactly like you do.
I mean...what TLers do in private with their friends was never even an open topic here. I'm focused purely on how people express themselves in public (on these boards).
On April 11 2011 09:11 bjornkavist wrote: Turns out that Kate Upton was also a great musician when she was younger too. She's lovely and talented . Love your blog man keep it up!
yeah man, I read about that on her wikipedia page. French horn I think? just gives me an even bigger crush.
On April 11 2011 09:33 Sliver wrote: New Burial EP is great...what else do you listen to? I lean torwards Burial/Boards of Canada/AFX/ etc..anything else worth checking out?
I'd love to be able to recommend you some stuff but tbh I know very little about this type of music (less than you, it seems, because I don't recognize "AFX" )
some sort of similar stuff I like, though: Nosaj Thing is strong, Siriusmo's new album pretty good, HOLY OTHER has a couple really good singles, The Field, Ulrich Schnauss?, some Porcelain Raft, maybe check out Grimes + other witch house like SALEM. or what about Caribou? some Boards fans like them
On April 11 2011 08:53 zulu_nation8 wrote: I like Florine a lot better than The Magic Place, never got into Burial.
you might really like him zulu. start out with Untrue ("Archangel" is what got me hooked).
I got Untrue when it first came out but it sounded a bit repetitive so I lost interest. Since then I've never been able to get into dubstep or whatever his genre is called. On the topic of instrumentals I'm really enjoying the Nicolas Jaar album. It's surprisingly intricate.
On April 11 2011 08:53 zulu_nation8 wrote: I like Florine a lot better than The Magic Place, never got into Burial.
you might really like him zulu. start out with Untrue ("Archangel" is what got me hooked).
I got Untrue when it first came out but it sounded a bit repetitive so I lost interest. Since then I've never been able to get into dubstep or whatever his genre is called. On the topic of instrumentals I'm really enjoying the Nicolas Jaar album. It's surprisingly intricate.
ah yeah, I'll check him out. Thanks for the recommendation. Untrue took a while to grow on me and when I first listened I did find it repetitive/pretty homogenous, so maybe give it another shot
On April 11 2011 09:11 WinByDefault wrote: Wait, so you shouldnt use "rape" because it is a heinous crime and might offend some people, but acceptable alternatives are "murder", "kill" and "massacre"?
If you don't think that the word "rape" should be used, then ok, but you kind of contradict your justifacation when you say that its perfectly acceptable to use those other words.
dang, I was waiting for this one.
yes, that rape is a heinous crime is one part of the reason it's probably uncouth to use it to describe a SC game. but maybe it was a mistake to mention that reason, because now you've fixated on it as the only or primary reason. It's obviously not. "rape" is differentiable from "murder" etc. because (1) it has nothing to do with what's actually happening in the game (2) outside a select club, it's not accepted to mean "trounce" or "beat convincingly" and (3) it implicates one sex as victim.
(come to think of it, your same point about "kill" and "murder" could also be made about "beat". there's clearly more going on here.)
In response to your points: (1) You're right, but does that mean its unnacceptable to use "kill" in relation to a video game without violence like a sports game, or even in an actual sport.
(2) Actually, I disagree with you on this one. All my friends, be they male, female, gamers or non-gamers would understand what I ment by "rape" if I used it in this context.
(3) Guys can be raped too. Yes, it is mostly girls, but don't ignore that guys can be raped too if you are trying to teach people to be sensitive.
Also the same cannont besaid of 'beat'. It is not a heinous crime.
Class, though while I greatly admire the video with Mr Martin, I'm not sold on the vibrant socks with such a short trouser leg. You lose the flash of colour and it becomes somewhat more garish, the white works rather better.
On April 11 2011 09:11 WinByDefault wrote: Wait, so you shouldnt use "rape" because it is a heinous crime and might offend some people, but acceptable alternatives are "murder", "kill" and "massacre"?
If you don't think that the word "rape" should be used, then ok, but you kind of contradict your justifacation when you say that its perfectly acceptable to use those other words.
dang, I was waiting for this one.
yes, that rape is a heinous crime is one part of the reason it's probably uncouth to use it to describe a SC game. but maybe it was a mistake to mention that reason, because now you've fixated on it as the only or primary reason. It's obviously not. "rape" is differentiable from "murder" etc. because (1) it has nothing to do with what's actually happening in the game (2) outside a select club, it's not accepted to mean "trounce" or "beat convincingly" and (3) it implicates one sex as victim.
(come to think of it, your same point about "kill" and "murder" could also be made about "beat". there's clearly more going on here.)
In response to your points: (1) You're right, but does that mean its unnacceptable to use "kill" in relation to a video game without violence like a sports game, or even in an actual sport.
(2) Actually, I disagree with you on this one. All my friends, be they male, female, gamers or non-gamers would understand what I ment by "rape" if I used it in this context.
(3) Guys can be raped too. Yes, it is mostly girls, but don't ignore that guys can be raped too if you are trying to teach people to be sensitive.
(2) I didn't say or suggest they would not understand. I said "not accepted to mean"; as in "beat convincingly" is not an accepted meaning of "rape" among most people.
(3) sure. But the implication (what the word "rape" is generally understood to imply, absent any clarification) is a male perpetrator and female victim.
On April 11 2011 09:11 WinByDefault wrote: Wait, so you shouldnt use "rape" because it is a heinous crime and might offend some people, but acceptable alternatives are "murder", "kill" and "massacre"?
If you don't think that the word "rape" should be used, then ok, but you kind of contradict your justifacation when you say that its perfectly acceptable to use those other words.
dang, I was waiting for this one.
yes, that rape is a heinous crime is one part of the reason it's probably uncouth to use it to describe a SC game. but maybe it was a mistake to mention that reason, because now you've fixated on it as the only or primary reason. It's obviously not. "rape" is differentiable from "murder" etc. because (1) it has nothing to do with what's actually happening in the game (2) outside a select club, it's not accepted to mean "trounce" or "beat convincingly" and (3) it implicates one sex as victim.
(come to think of it, your same point about "kill" and "murder" could also be made about "beat". there's clearly more going on here.)
In response to your points: (1) You're right, but does that mean its unnacceptable to use "kill" in relation to a video game without violence like a sports game, or even in an actual sport.
(2) Actually, I disagree with you on this one. All my friends, be they male, female, gamers or non-gamers would understand what I ment by "rape" if I used it in this context.
(3) Guys can be raped too. Yes, it is mostly girls, but don't ignore that guys can be raped too if you are trying to teach people to be sensitive.
(2) I didn't say or suggest they would not understand. I said "not accepted to mean"; as in "beat convincingly" is not an accepted meaning of "rape" among most people.
(3) sure. But the implication (what the word "rape" is generally understood to imply, absent any clarification) is a male perpetrator and female victim.
(2) Actually, I think they would accept it, they would find it crude, but wouldn't be offended. And it's not just gamers that use the term rape.
(3) Fair enough, but if I was to say to my friend that I raped them, then I mean and will often follow up with a description of me physically raping them (male-male). Now I do not think that that would be an appropriate way to post on teamliquid or any pulic furom, but all I'm trying to say is that when I use it, it has nothing to do with gender.
On April 11 2011 09:11 WinByDefault wrote: Wait, so you shouldnt use "rape" because it is a heinous crime and might offend some people, but acceptable alternatives are "murder", "kill" and "massacre"?
If you don't think that the word "rape" should be used, then ok, but you kind of contradict your justifacation when you say that its perfectly acceptable to use those other words.
dang, I was waiting for this one.
yes, that rape is a heinous crime is one part of the reason it's probably uncouth to use it to describe a SC game. but maybe it was a mistake to mention that reason, because now you've fixated on it as the only or primary reason. It's obviously not. "rape" is differentiable from "murder" etc. because (1) it has nothing to do with what's actually happening in the game (2) outside a select club, it's not accepted to mean "trounce" or "beat convincingly" and (3) it implicates one sex as victim.
(come to think of it, your same point about "kill" and "murder" could also be made about "beat". there's clearly more going on here.)
In response to your points: (1) You're right, but does that mean its unnacceptable to use "kill" in relation to a video game without violence like a sports game, or even in an actual sport.
(2) Actually, I disagree with you on this one. All my friends, be they male, female, gamers or non-gamers would understand what I ment by "rape" if I used it in this context.
(3) Guys can be raped too. Yes, it is mostly girls, but don't ignore that guys can be raped too if you are trying to teach people to be sensitive.
(2) I didn't say or suggest they would not understand. I said "not accepted to mean"; as in "beat convincingly" is not an accepted meaning of "rape" among most people.
(3) sure. But the implication (what the word "rape" is generally understood to imply, absent any clarification) is a male perpetrator and female victim.
I think you also need to campaign to free the word "rape" of it's gender-specificity, while you're at it. It's current use marginalizes male victims of rape, as well as creates a hostile environment towards men by portraying them as the sole gender responsible for the perpetration of heinous sex acts.
Bookmarked this one because at some point in my life I will probably have to dress sharp.
See also: my last.fm (let's b friends?)
Friended! I've said this before, but the team liquid last.fm group is a sad and lonely place.
It irks me that women can't just be ordinary people around gamer-centric sites like team liquid, but I'm unsure what to do about it other than not participate in the cat-calls and report particularly egregious posts. Keep fighting the good fight, JWD.
On April 11 2011 07:30 arcfyr wrote: Most of the internet suffers from a terrible hostility towards women and just because it exists doesn't in any way make it okay.
too true. threads involving women here are disgusting, and this is a good forum
On April 11 2011 07:45 Contagious wrote: kate upton = boner
thank you so much for calling TL out on the aggressive masculinity and rape culture. i didn't think anyone else cared (though of course it exists most places on the internet)
On April 11 2011 13:24 -yoda wrote: you should take off "own" as well from that list if your so bent on removing words on the internet that target a selective crowd.
yeah and demolish should go too. for the construction workers!
On April 11 2011 11:08 Dont Panic wrote: I like how you have an amazing video of Saturn followed by "Jelly Wobbler".
the jelly wobbler is amazing in its own little way hehehehhe
On April 11 2011 13:06 dudecrush wrote: "phantom of the floppera" - Isn't that Toccata and The Fugue by J.S. Bach?
I think you're right (remember reading a YT commenter to the video pointing that out). I ripped the title straight from the video.
<3 Another good one, although you should've linked Burial & Four Tet & Thom Yorke's collab instead of Street Halo simply out of it's sheer grandiosity and left SH as a sidenote under it.
Edit: Also, I expect to see TVOTR's next album as the featured on in the next thread. It's absolutely phenomenal.
mightve seen this already but i had a hell of a time in a thread a few months back discussing the word rape on this very forum. it turns out that people cling deeply to the word. you have a red name so you have a different experience when approaching people about these sorts of things. i don't know that that the thread is even worth a read but suffice to say, heyoka nailed it with the closing post: "I'm embarrassed to be part of a community where this somehow generated heated debate."
On April 11 2011 14:17 chobopeon wrote: cheers. another masterpiece.
mightve seen this already but i had a hell of a time in a thread a few months back discussing the word rape on this very forum. it turns out that people cling deeply to the word. you have a red name so you have a different experience when approaching people about these sorts of things. i don't know that that the thread is even worth a read but suffice to say, heyoka nailed it with the closing post: "I'm embarrassed to be part of a community where this somehow generated heated debate."
thanks man.
yeah you know, I've been on the defensive a good bit in this thread but I'm not sure the onus should be on anyone to explain why misusing the word isn't quite right. shouldn't it be the other way around? like, with so many great alternatives to "rape" that aren't at all questionable, why insist on continuing to use the word? I don't understand.
I hadn't seen that thread. appreciate the support.
Great read. Thanks for the post, especially the "rape" discussion and agree that people need to make en effort to remove it from their vocabulary. Btw i love using wrecked and demolished.
Just a point about the "rape" discussion that I don't think was adequately expressed: Words change meaning over time based on how they are used. The word "lame" for example no longer just implies a person who is physically disabled but is now accepted to also mean "uncool" or "unoriginal". (Cool would also be an example of a word that has changed its primary meaning over .)
Right now the word "rape" is undergoing a similar meaning change that the word "gay" (for my generation at least) is undergoing. (They are becoming common insults essentially.) If the word is repeated used to express dominating someone in the context of a video game, people are going to come to accept "rape" as meaning that.
Obviously there are people, such as you, JWD, and myself that are not comfortable with the less severe connotation that the word is taking on. I'm not saying that this is right in any way, I'm simply pointing out that dialects change over time and until this word fully assimilates itself into the gamer vernacular there are going to be people who point out the previous connotation of the word. In all honesty, using the word does make me uncomfortable as do many of the misogynistic insults that are popular in the gaming community.
That being said, I do appreciate your efforts to bring this issue up and at least make people more aware of how their vocabulary is changing.
(Also, I hope this is an appropriate first post. >.<)
Thank GOD For this. Thank you JWD. I live for your posts. Loving the music and getting started on checking out all the links, anxiously waiting to see were they take me.
A Blind Pilot song that I got turned on to from one of your earlier blogs came up on shuffle as I was driving home from work today and it got me wondering when you'd be posting a new one. Lo and behold!
On April 11 2011 14:17 chobopeon wrote: cheers. another masterpiece.
mightve seen this already but i had a hell of a time in a thread a few months back discussing the word rape on this very forum. it turns out that people cling deeply to the word. you have a red name so you have a different experience when approaching people about these sorts of things. i don't know that that the thread is even worth a read but suffice to say, heyoka nailed it with the closing post: "I'm embarrassed to be part of a community where this somehow generated heated debate."
thanks man.
yeah you know, I've been on the defensive a good bit in this thread but I'm not sure the onus should be on anyone to explain why misusing the word isn't quite right. shouldn't it be the other way around? like, with so many great alternatives to "rape" that aren't at all questionable, why insist on continuing to use the word? I don't understand.
I hadn't seen that thread. appreciate the support.
I like my homegirl Marilynne Robinson's take on the subject word reform:
"To insist that thinking worthy of respect can be transmitted in a special verbal code is to claim it for the class that can concern itself with inventing and acquiring these codes and is so situated in life as to be able, or compelled, to learn them."
To preach that sort of word-centric idealism is to practice classism. You're assuming that a given person is a bigot (or an unwitting pawn of bigotry) because they use language that you happen to find objectionable. Personally, I find that interpretation of language use to be somewhat objectionable itself. It also posits a pretty strong link between the language one uses and one's worldview, which is an idea that is anything but safe and settled in contemporary linguistics. It's also ineradicably arbitrary.
An earlier poster's point was valid. One player is not murdering another player in SC2. Why help promote a "violence culture" in the world? A player doesn't get "massacred" or "slaughtered" or even "demolished." Those words would seem to trivialize things like genocide just as readily a rape would seem to trivialize sexual assault. Own has a tortured history, especially in the States. Why use that word instead? If you take it as a serious moral directive to assure that every word you use cannot be interpreted, you're forced to operate with some strange and rarefied vocabulary that no one would ever use. "Fuck" is a inheritance from sexual invective. "Damn" implies a theological reality that marginalizes everyone outside the Judeo-Christian tradition. A word like "Western" ignores every nationality in the western hemisphere that isn't originally European. Discussions of gender issues that see the world as a male/female binary leave intersexed individuals out in the cold. Calling someone a "gentleman" or a using the word "lady" or referring to something as "rich" is inherently classist, as is the word "classy" itself.
I mean where do you stop? You always stop exactly where you think it is reasonable to stop. Why not extend that courtesy to other people as well, and let them use the language that they find natural and reasonable as well?
the SC community suffers from this terrible male culture. I am talking about both pervasive overt hostility towards women: they're "attention whores" and anyone who disagrees is a foolish "white knight", they shouldn't have their own
events, they're fat, they are actually masquerading men; and (much more subtle) a "bro" atmosphere that makes it really difficult for most women to feel comfortable: questions about their underwear on a community
podcast, regular sex jokes even on official streams of the most "professional" SC2 events ("69 lolololol"), "tits or GTFO", inappropriate advances from dumb
and unsocialized male fans.
Well I'll touch on this one then.
1. The attention whore comment. The person didn't say it with any tact, but yes getting your boobs signed, and then posing for a picture to show everyone, means you want attention for it. Maybe the word attention whore is somehow a mysoginistic word in your mind, but to most it's not.
2. The white knight comment I agree with. Too much 4chan invasion going on in here.
3. I don't believe they should need their own events for Starcraft or competitive gaming. I can understand it in sports due to the physiology being different. Like tennis there are more sets for men because it is more suitable to the biology differences between men and women. But why is a strategy video game expected to be treated the same. The only reason there are female-only tournaments is because that will encourage female gamers that want to compete. But the reason why it encourages them is because the best ones aren't even in masters according to many of the tournament winners we have seen. Linda Liao is not some top 200 player in her region, but she is sponsored on Razer, not for achievements, but because she has an image, is a model, is female. Usually the comment of they don't need their events comes from the philosophical perspective that it actually hurts women to have woman-only game tournaments. It hurts the image of them, it further perpetuates the idea that they can't compete. Princess Aura from Super Smash Bros community (later went into League of Legends and Starcraft 2) got onto WCG Ultimate Gamer partially due to her "Regional Championship in Super Smash Bros Brawl". It was a female only side event at a regional tournament, with 7 entrants. What effect do you think that has on female gamers? Obviously a negative one. I commonly bring up how it should be equal because then women will actually be encouraged and challenged appropriately. If they aren't co-ed they have the option of settling, or the more militant feministic ones are turned off from competition altogether (I have known this kind in person).
4. I agree with the fat one. It's ridiculous to say they are fat, then again bro's call everyone on the internet fat. They are douchebags, it is what they say. So guess what, they aren't really discriminating specifically against women here.
5. I also agree with the "that's actually a guy" comments. I think I first heard that joke when the internet was INVENTED.
6. As far as the podcast comment, well those 4 women DECIDED to be involved in that show, knowing exactly what it was, and obviously had no problem with it, so I don't see how it could be predicted to be some sort of anti-female thing. Obviously they know who the audience is, 95-99% male, with the rest of that percent most likely the girlfriends of that male population. There ARE in fact hardly any girls on TL. That isn't the fault of TL's community, or women, or men, or whatever, it's just the demographic, it's a simple statistic. If the podcast is about girls panties for one question, you can't really blame it.
7. Wait someone got banned for calling them hot? They are hot, I don't really see how that is inappropriate. Hot was a derogatory term for women in the 70s-80s, it is 2011 now.
8. Yeah the horny quite a bit is stupid I agree.
some elements of this bro culture are dispensable; one that bugs me is using the word "rape" to describe in-game domination. I don't like reading that on TL and I can imagine women being even more turned off by it. I mean, misusing "rape" is not the end of the world, but it's also really easy to avoid. so a while ago I spent some time during a lecture searching for "rape" in SC2 General and sending this douchey PM to about 50 users I turned up using the word:
(this PM doesn't come from me in my capacity as a mod or anything.)
I just wanted to point out that you might want to reconsider using the word "rape" in this context. the word's just harsh and extremely loaded, and it can be easily substituted out for something that doesn't conjure images of a heinous crime. plus if you never use "rape" like this again, I guarantee you will come off as more intelligent and conscientious.
just a thought! happy posting!
the tone is probably too condescending (tbh I find it difficult to respect someone who casually uses "rape" to describe a video game battle) but it gets the point across. Now about how TLers responded.
I expected most posters to tell me to fuck off, but it turns out that something like 95% of people throwing around "rape" at TL are just lazy inconsiderates who aren't at all attached to the word. most responses were really cool and went something like these:
Thanks for the well-mannered and thoughtful PM. I'll think twice next time. On average the TL community is extremely high quality compared to your average forum filled with trolls and jerkoffs, and I appreciate your effort.
its gotten to be a habit but I'll try to avoid using that anymore didnt mean to offend people
(ok so this guy might be missing the point a little bit — the word isn't overtly offensive)
Glancing at the post, you're definitely right. I'll substitute the word for something else in the future.
Thanks.
Ya... sorry about that. I had like a 10 lose streak against Terrans and in my sort of rage post I got a bit carried away >_>
The few posters who objected to my PM complained that misusing "rape" doesn't actually give off an inconsiderate moron vibe, or that they don't care if it does:
The ability to speak or write in text so as to not offend or provoke others do not make anyone more intelligent.
meeh, you put effort in your pm so out of respect for your time invested to tell me to sensor my use of the word rape I have edited the linked post to be more pg13.
I couldn't really care less about sounding smart or not. If my language offended you i'm sorry.
I only got into any sort of discussion with one respondent. I was sort of pigeonholed by that one condescending sentence in my initial PM, and didn't argue effectively at all. actually I presented my position terribly. but it'd be unfair to pick the argument back up in public so I'll just paste our conversation here. I think it got a little interesting because he kept working in his age:
As for the stint on rape. What about when rape is used in the context of "the vikings raped and pillaged the land" in historical context or as used in historical fiction, creative non-fiction. I mean to me, the culture of gaming has embraced it. I come from the super smash community, and if you look around on allisbrawl.com there are about 100+ girls' profiles that have them writing the word rape in this context. Statistically 3/4 of them have been raped before. At least. So what I must deduce from that is that a word's definition is in it's contextual application within a sentence or a thought, also derived from the contextual implications of the person who is saying it, where they are saying it, how they are saying it, about which subject they are speaking of.
To just say it's offensive, and that's that, is ridiculous and intellectually lazy. I would love to hear what you think about the word niggardly, as you may or may not know, it is a very controversial word. But only due to the flagrant ignorance of others, or the taking out of context, it's use when quoting others. Rape is defined not only as a act of violence towards someone else using sex as a weapon, it is
also...
an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.
Archaic . the act of seizing and carrying off by force.
The video game community makes it so blatantly obvious that they use the word in the context of either the Archaic terminology or the violent seizure of a countryside. It's slang derived from that use. But if we look towards the verbal use (above-mentioned was the use as a noun) which most gamers absolutely do use the word in the context you have mentioned...
to plunder (a place); despoil.
to seize, take, or carry off by force.
Well that's even more interesting, once again, as a verb in relation to an object (the other person's strategy or play) it fits quite nicely. Not a very nice word in our society today, but on the internet it has a different meaning. You have no idea that all women are turned off to gaming due to this. I have been to many tournaments for super smash bros brawl where there are foul-mouthed unladylike female gamers who will beat someone and say that they raped him. Too many times have I heard this to maintain the position that I formerly shared with you.
To even be so derogatory as to say that 95% of the people using the word were lazy inconsiderates, that seems rather pompous to me. It sounds like people that have a different view of the world, or disagree with you are talked down about in public blogs that are featured... It seems judgey, presumptuous. I mean you went on a rant about how women don't feel secure here, yet every single one of your topics that are numbered, these special topics like this one, start off with a woman being paraded around as a sexual object, modeling in skimpy clothing. I'm not one to judge, why you start your post with what appears the E-quivalent of half naked woman posters in the garage of a 50 year old mechanic, but to go around telling other people that they are making women uncomfortable with standards you have set, and then to hypocritically disobey those rules you seem to be so adamant about. I'm not one to judge you on that, only one to factually expose the hypocrisy of it.
Source for my claims about JWD's value for women as people and not objects can be found in the first video of almost all of his numbered blog features. Number 2, the first video stands out as extremely offensive and denegrating to women, but to each their own. I found it highly entertaining, very funny. Great music too.
(In this video from the blog post above you find the trucker, our hero, lick raping a whole limo full of women, to the point of their clothes being ripped off, and them being thrown to the road at high speed, male on male rape, male on female rape to the point of killing her by destroying her intestings, but yet JWD is the man to uphold the plight of women here at Teamliquid)
As always, love your blogs and your work, keep it up.
After reading through the topic I will reply to some things in the thread here as not to clog the post.
On April 11 2011 13:24 -yoda wrote: you should take off "own" as well from that list if your so bent on removing words on the internet that target a selective crowd.
yeah and demolish should go too. for the construction workers!
Well own would probably be very offensive to those that have been slaves, slavery is still prevalent around the world in many countries, and there are many forms of slavery still afflicting immigrants within america, and european countries (sex-slaves, children bought from other countries by the very wealthy to clean in their homes, etc...). To act so dismissive about this in an attempt to appeal to ridicule, is... interesting...
On April 11 2011 08:18 Blyadischa wrote: I think the word rape and gay have transformed from their dictionary definitions. The problem is not that they have transformed, but people use it in their new socially accepted definition without being able to specifically define the word. The result is cognitive dissonance which results in a merging of the two definitions, this is bad. I think the solution of the issue is not to try and make people discontinue their use of such words (that task is much too difficult), but rather help them be aware that they are using it in a different context and to disassociate the physical act of raping and the act of "raping" someone in a game of SC2.
let's say for the purpose of argument that it's true that within the gaming community "rape" and "gay" do not actually have anything to do with rape or gayness (a position that's absurd on its face imo, but again, for the sake of argument).
even if this was so, it's still not right to misuse the words because other, non-gaming type people wouldn't appreciate this "transformation" from dictionary definitions. and these people (mainstream regular people) are all people I wish wouldn't hesitate at getting into SC2 and its community.
bottom line: it makes no sense to say "gamers talk differently so it's ok" when we all wish this game/scene/community would grow to include lots of people who aren't now gamers
People in the MMA community commonly say someone else got "fucked up". I don't see how this is any different. I agree, the commentators should not say "rape", but forum members, I guess if you make a rule not to say it that's fine, but then to try and extend your hand to control every fan to not say rape, to the point of you messaging users and telling them that they are somehow sensitively inferior to you? I think that is pushing it. Let people say what they want to say within reason, the use of rape is not being used to make light of the act of violence (which you seem to have an idea that this would offend women mostly, when many victims of rape are men too), and everyone in the gaming community knows this. Would someone really come in here after seeing NASL, or the TSL, and go in the forum, see the word rape being used in this context, and completely run away and never be into esports ever again? I find that very hard to believe.
On April 11 2011 08:18 Blyadischa wrote: I think the word rape and gay have transformed from their dictionary definitions. The problem is not that they have transformed, but people use it in their new socially accepted definition without being able to specifically define the word. The result is cognitive dissonance which results in a merging of the two definitions, this is bad. I think the solution of the issue is not to try and make people discontinue their use of such words (that task is much too difficult), but rather help them be aware that they are using it in a different context and to disassociate the physical act of raping and the act of "raping" someone in a game of SC2.
let's say for the purpose of argument that it's true that within the gaming community "rape" and "gay" do not actually have anything to do with rape or gayness (a position that's absurd on its face imo, but again, for the sake of argument).
even if this was so, it's still not right to misuse the words because other, non-gaming type people wouldn't appreciate this "transformation" from dictionary definitions. and these people (mainstream regular people) are all people I wish wouldn't hesitate at getting into SC2 and its community.
bottom line: it makes no sense to say "gamers talk differently so it's ok" when we all wish this game/scene/community would grow to include lots of people who aren't now gamers
I personally use the words rape and gay with alternate meanings but only with a few very close friends. None of us have any connections to the words and feel free to use them to describe gaming situations. Is that still absurd that we can use these words with different meanings?
I understand what you mean; you read my post to suggest that it's absurd for anyone to, e.g., say that hellions rape slow lings and not mean anything having to do with nonconsensual sex. That's not my position. I can sort of see how it might be possible for someone to use or read "rape" without himself immediately thinking of rape. But that doesn't mean the word has become completely divorced from its original meaning — the letters are still sitting there and 90% of the time they mean something different than a convincing win in a SC2 game. So: (and this is what I'm saying) it's absurd to say that the word "rape" might not actually have anything to do with rape. The image/allusion will always be there.
You are suggesting that the first use of the word rape was for the act of violence sexually towards someone else? That is incorrect, the "original meaning" was to plunder. It was an act of violence that was horrific, but not as much a personal one, more like pirates coming to land and burning houses, stealing things from buildings. Since that is like a fairy tale to our sensitivities today, if the original meaning is what matters most to you, and that it can't be divorced, the word rape shouldn't offend you.
On April 11 2011 14:17 chobopeon wrote: cheers. another masterpiece.
mightve seen this already but i had a hell of a time in a thread a few months back discussing the word rape on this very forum. it turns out that people cling deeply to the word. you have a red name so you have a different experience when approaching people about these sorts of things. i don't know that that the thread is even worth a read but suffice to say, heyoka nailed it with the closing post: "I'm embarrassed to be part of a community where this somehow generated heated debate."
thanks man.
yeah you know, I've been on the defensive a good bit in this thread but I'm not sure the onus should be on anyone to explain why misusing the word isn't quite right. shouldn't it be the other way around? like, with so many great alternatives to "rape" that aren't at all questionable, why insist on continuing to use the word? I don't understand.
I hadn't seen that thread. appreciate the support.
The reason why you are on the defensive is because you made clear judgments about those who you disagree with morally on this. You claimed them to be douches, etc... I mean it just makes a bunch of people who have any sort of perception of ethics, the english language, as given to them through college classes, etc... to want to debate you on the logical missteps you have made.
On April 11 2011 09:11 bjornkavist wrote: Turns out that Kate Upton was also a great musician when she was younger too. She's lovely and talented . Love your blog man keep it up!
yeah man, I read about that on her wikipedia page. French horn I think? just gives me an even bigger crush.
thanks!
Sounds like an inappropriate advance towards a female, by the standards of the 50s and 40s.
On April 11 2011 09:11 WinByDefault wrote: Wait, so you shouldnt use "rape" because it is a heinous crime and might offend some people, but acceptable alternatives are "murder", "kill" and "massacre"?
If you don't think that the word "rape" should be used, then ok, but you kind of contradict your justifacation when you say that its perfectly acceptable to use those other words.
dang, I was waiting for this one.
yes, that rape is a heinous crime is one part of the reason it's probably uncouth to use it to describe a SC game. but maybe it was a mistake to mention that reason, because now you've fixated on it as the only or primary reason. It's obviously not. "rape" is differentiable from "murder" etc. because (1) it has nothing to do with what's actually happening in the game (2) outside a select club, it's not accepted to mean "trounce" or "beat convincingly" and (3) it implicates one sex as victim.
(come to think of it, your same point about "kill" and "murder" could also be made about "beat". there's clearly more going on here.)
In response to your points: (1) You're right, but does that mean its unnacceptable to use "kill" in relation to a video game without violence like a sports game, or even in an actual sport.
(2) Actually, I disagree with you on this one. All my friends, be they male, female, gamers or non-gamers would understand what I ment by "rape" if I used it in this context.
(3) Guys can be raped too. Yes, it is mostly girls, but don't ignore that guys can be raped too if you are trying to teach people to be sensitive.
(2) I didn't say or suggest they would not understand. I said "not accepted to mean"; as in "beat convincingly" is not an accepted meaning of "rape" among most people.
(3) sure. But the implication (what the word "rape" is generally understood to imply, absent any clarification) is a male perpetrator and female victim.
Interesting on that ignorance of the fact that for some reason the definition of the word that you use for your argument doesn't include "the implication is male on female btw".
Great blog as always, JWD. Superb way to start a monday! :D
I have to say, with the exception of a few points, Aberu has out-discussed you with regards to the rape-topic. That said, the "bro-mentality" here, and on the net in general, isn't something I'm a fan of.. then again, it's just one of the many problems internet communities (and TL) have, others include sense of entitlement, knee-jerk reactions and general lack of anger management.
On April 11 2011 13:24 -yoda wrote: you should take off "own" as well from that list if your so bent on removing words on the internet that target a selective crowd.
yeah and demolish should go too. for the construction workers!
You joke, but "owning" someone does relate to slavery. If you think rape should go, anything that could offend should go too.
On April 11 2011 13:24 -yoda wrote: you should take off "own" as well from that list if your so bent on removing words on the internet that target a selective crowd.
yeah and demolish should go too. for the construction workers!
You joke, but "owning" someone does relate to slavery. If you think rape should go, anything that could offend should go too.
This argument doesn't make any sense. Literally anything could offend. Instead, we should be removing things that actually offend; I think we'll have a hard enough time with that. And certainly there are more people offended by the word "rape" on this forum than the word "own", (as demonstrated by this thread and the previous thread on the use of "rape") and we should start by removing the more offensive features of our society before moving on to the lesser ones, right?
Also when rape is used on the internet as in video game culture, there's no reason to assume it's referring to a man raping a woman. I'd bet it's about a man raping another man. I don't have any real reason to believe that except when a man tells another man he's going to rape you, it seems weird to assume he'd mean it in any other way.
On April 11 2011 13:24 -yoda wrote: you should take off "own" as well from that list if your so bent on removing words on the internet that target a selective crowd.
yeah and demolish should go too. for the construction workers!
You joke, but "owning" someone does relate to slavery. If you think rape should go, anything that could offend should go too.
This argument doesn't make any sense. Literally anything could offend. Instead, we should be removing things that actually offend; I think we'll have a hard enough time with that. And certainly there are more people offended by the word "rape" on this forum than the word "own", (as demonstrated by this thread and the previous thread on the use of "rape") and we should start by removing the more offensive features of our society before moving on to the lesser ones, right?
Also when rape is used on the internet as in video game culture, there's no reason to assume it's referring to a man raping a woman. I'd bet it's about a man raping another man. I don't have any real reason to believe that except when a man tells another man he's going to rape you, it seems weird to assume he'd mean it in any other way.
The argument is a counter-appeal to ridicule, showing that him ridiculing that idea, is ridiculous in itself.
I personally don't use the word rape in this way, because I do feel like it may offend someone, but I don't want to push my judgements on other people, since I can't accurately say that they mean it in a mysoginistic way.
On April 11 2011 13:24 -yoda wrote: you should take off "own" as well from that list if your so bent on removing words on the internet that target a selective crowd.
yeah and demolish should go too. for the construction workers!
You joke, but "owning" someone does relate to slavery. If you think rape should go, anything that could offend should go too.
This argument doesn't make any sense. Literally anything could offend. Instead, we should be removing things that actually offend; I think we'll have a hard enough time with that. And certainly there are more people offended by the word "rape" on this forum than the word "own", (as demonstrated by this thread and the previous thread on the use of "rape") and we should start by removing the more offensive features of our society before moving on to the lesser ones, right?
Also when rape is used on the internet as in video game culture, there's no reason to assume it's referring to a man raping a woman. I'd bet it's about a man raping another man. I don't have any real reason to believe that except when a man tells another man he's going to rape you, it seems weird to assume he'd mean it in any other way.
The argument is a counter-appeal to ridicule, showing that him ridiculing that idea, is ridiculous in itself.
I personally don't use the word rape in this way, because I do feel like it may offend someone, but I don't want to push my judgements on other people, since I can't accurately say that they mean it in a mysoginistic way.
There is a difference between the argument "people are being offended by this, so you should stop saying it" and "people could be offended by this, so you should stop saying it" JWD is making the former argument, with regard to "rape", and the appeal to absurdity wrt "own" was of the form of the latter, so JWD's ridicule is not ridiculous. Well, it might be, but it being ridiculous doesn't mean the argument against "rape" is.
On April 11 2011 13:24 -yoda wrote: you should take off "own" as well from that list if your so bent on removing words on the internet that target a selective crowd.
yeah and demolish should go too. for the construction workers!
You joke, but "owning" someone does relate to slavery. If you think rape should go, anything that could offend should go too.
This argument doesn't make any sense. Literally anything could offend. Instead, we should be removing things that actually offend; I think we'll have a hard enough time with that. And certainly there are more people offended by the word "rape" on this forum than the word "own", (as demonstrated by this thread and the previous thread on the use of "rape") and we should start by removing the more offensive features of our society before moving on to the lesser ones, right?
Also when rape is used on the internet as in video game culture, there's no reason to assume it's referring to a man raping a woman. I'd bet it's about a man raping another man. I don't have any real reason to believe that except when a man tells another man he's going to rape you, it seems weird to assume he'd mean it in any other way.
The argument is a counter-appeal to ridicule, showing that him ridiculing that idea, is ridiculous in itself.
I personally don't use the word rape in this way, because I do feel like it may offend someone, but I don't want to push my judgements on other people, since I can't accurately say that they mean it in a mysoginistic way.
There is a difference between the argument "people are being offended by this, so you should stop saying it" and "people could be offended by this, so you should stop saying it" JWD is making the former argument, with regard to "rape", and the appeal to absurdity wrt "own" was of the form of the latter, so JWD's ridicule is not ridiculous. Well, it might be, but it being ridiculous doesn't mean the argument against "rape" is.
The point is that JWD may influence some about the word, and that's good, but the name-calling, the obvious attempt to say that he isn't part of the problem that keeps women out of Teamliquid, and yet he is. There are just so many things wrong with him posting publicly about this, decrying so many people. He even posted an argument that he sorely lost against one of the "insensitively lazy" people. He basically said he had a right to be condescending, which is wrong, and he did say some presumptuous things about the person in question. Just the overall attitude, is bad. I feel by exposing the logical fallacies in his debate tactics, and his hypocritical actions (due to past postings of very potentially offensive videos and pictures), maybe he will settle down on the self-righteousness a bit.
Very nice blog, always looking forward to seeing your next one. Frida Gustavsson is not of this world (btw, she's just saying where she bought her clothes/what brand they are). One thing though: Please don't wear a tie to a button-down shirt, it's utterly pedestrian.
On April 11 2011 13:24 -yoda wrote: you should take off "own" as well from that list if your so bent on removing words on the internet that target a selective crowd.
yeah and demolish should go too. for the construction workers!
You joke, but "owning" someone does relate to slavery. If you think rape should go, anything that could offend should go too.
Except here the etymology of the slang "owning" is that of hackers taking possession or control of someone's computer, which was very close to that of the traditional meaning of ownership. It gradually morphed from the hacker slang usages, such as writing "Owned" on a hacked and defaced website, into what is now its common slang usage in gaming and so on as a taunt for humiliation.
The etymology of "rape" though would be exactly that of a fourteen year old internet thug trying to find a word to describe the greatness of that last headshot he landed on you, and the only parallel he can draw to your powerlessness is to that of brutal prison sodomy.
And no, "rape" as gamer slang isn't entirely or harmlessly divorced from its meaning. You'll frequently see it in live reports or comments on other websites. "Oh man, he just got bent over and raped" or "He just had his way with him" and worse. The parallel to physical rape is almost always present.
On April 12 2011 11:52 duckett wrote: I'm a big JWD fan but calling the bro culture of TL terrible and publicizing his effort against it in the middle of a post full of porn is very ???
My thoughts exactly oh my god haahaha. "I'm very disappointed in TL for making women feel uncomfortable at TL. Also here's a bunch of pictures of a female body type which is unattainable for 95% of women just to make any women on this board feel really self-conscious. I have no idea what the male-gaze is. I am a wonderful feminist."
Not to say that I disagree with your point about bro-culture (though that wouldn't be my choice of words for a bunch of sexist young teenagers), it's perfectly valid. It's just that maybe you should try being a part of the solution rather than complaining about people who say rape (a tactless, but not gender specific term).
I stalked your non-TL blog this morning. Did you see Beach House live recently? I saw them in NYC and their last show in DC. Amazing. Looking forward to May when Fleet Foxes start touring.
You prompted me to register. Not easy finding people with shared interests working where I do. No one knows what a 'Starcraft' is and have only vaguely heard of Radiohead.
I do have an amazing girlfriend who goes to shows with me and will, on occasion, play a few games of Starjeweled. She does the jewel-breaking while I form our armies. We are a pretty deadly force.
One Minute Puberty was pretty sweet, what a crazy video. Instantly shared on my FB :3
#8: I agree, even though I know I'm guilty of using it. I try to use "ravage" more often, although I guess that could have sexual overtones too, depending on the context. I'll work on that ^^
You are a bona fide bad ass JWD. I especially like #8. I always end up feeling like legitimate conversations on the internet do not work. Good for you for trying (and succeeding!), you have inspired me. I also second your comment about photoshopping beautiful women (and men). Makes. No. Sense. Thanks again for another great post!
On April 12 2011 11:52 duckett wrote: I'm a big JWD fan but calling the bro culture of TL terrible and publicizing his effort against it in the middle of a post full of porn is very ???
My thoughts exactly oh my god haahaha. "I'm very disappointed in TL for making women feel uncomfortable at TL. Also here's a bunch of pictures of a female body type which is unattainable for 95% of women just to make any women on this board feel really self-conscious. I have no idea what the male-gaze is. I am a wonderful feminist."
Not to say that I disagree with your point about bro-culture (though that wouldn't be my choice of words for a bunch of sexist young teenagers), it's perfectly valid. It's just that maybe you should try being a part of the solution rather than complaining about people who say rape (a tactless, but not gender specific term).
I think you're making a tu-quoque argument here. Sure, he's a part of the community and part of the culture, but that doesn't make his complaint any less valid. The fact of the matter is, people should still refrain from using the word rape, regardless of whether or not JWD posts pictures of women in his blog series.
Re: #8, you do have a point, but i wouldnt want to force the TL community into censoring themselves using my gender as a backup. i, myself, hate being told to censor my choice of words. part of the internet is being able to be yourself.
at work i have to turn on the word filter in my brain, but when im at home/with friends/on the internets, i dont want to have to worry about that.
i feel using the word rape to describe gameplay will disappear slowly on its own as more and more females join the community and having role models(commentators) describing gameplay using more 'appropriate words' for the viewers. its not something that will disappear overnight and i would not try to enforce it.
you can add "steam-rolled" to your list of words:>
I agree with the whole thing about people using 'rape', makes me sick. Theres a million other words u can use, I prefer 'owned' and if the situation really calls for it 'FUCKEN OWNED NOOB' is better than rape.
Conflating pornography with the female models JWD's libido has deposited (or thrust or inserted) into #1 and #10 (when potpourri) of every blog entry so far, and equating those manifestations of JWD's libido with the latent chauvinism or even misogyny implied by use of the word "rape" (not to mention how explicit this misogyny is in gaming culture and on the Internet overall), is infinitely worse than deterring people from salient misogyny by harping on their language. Don't want to get into fisticuffs over whether erotic representation is inherently violent, but certainly blurring the semantics of the word and therefore concept of "rape" is at best avoided, right?
Burial only really clicked for me like two weeks ago. I haven't listened to Street Halo yet, but his first two albums are hard to proselytize for without using synonyms for "absorbs light."
On April 11 2011 09:33 Sliver wrote: New Burial EP is great...what else do you listen to? I lean torwards Burial/James Blake/Boards of Canada/AFX/ etc..anything else worth checking out?
I assume you know Autechre. What about Seefeel, Burger/Ink, µ-Ziq, and Mouse on Mars?
Donald Glover is the fucking man and his music under alias Childish Gambino is so good! That new EP is his best yet, but his full album Culdesac (free download here) is pretty damn good too. And all of his music is always free, as he makes money from acting, writing and touring. He's planning to release a full album this summer.
He also did a remix of Sufjan Stevens' album Illinois, called Illin-Noise and under the alias mc DJ. Link
I have heard tales of this blog and I have to say this almost surpasses the hype. Great stuff, enjoy the videos and image galleries more than anything.
I also appreciate your sense of logic and rhetoric when arguing the use of the word "rape". You seem to be avoiding fallacies and it makes for actual interesting discussion to read.
On April 11 2011 15:48 GulpyBlinkeyes wrote: A Blind Pilot song that I got turned on to from one of your earlier blogs came up on shuffle as I was driving home from work today and it got me wondering when you'd be posting a new one. Lo and behold!
this is cool. thanks for posting, and I'm glad you like that album!
On April 11 2011 13:24 -yoda wrote: you should take off "own" as well from that list if your so bent on removing words on the internet that target a selective crowd.
yeah and demolish should go too. for the construction workers!
You joke, but "owning" someone does relate to slavery. If you think rape should go, anything that could offend should go too.
This argument doesn't make any sense. Literally anything could offend. Instead, we should be removing things that actually offend; I think we'll have a hard enough time with that. And certainly there are more people offended by the word "rape" on this forum than the word "own", (as demonstrated by this thread and the previous thread on the use of "rape") and we should start by removing the more offensive features of our society before moving on to the lesser ones, right?
Also when rape is used on the internet as in video game culture, there's no reason to assume it's referring to a man raping a woman. I'd bet it's about a man raping another man. I don't have any real reason to believe that except when a man tells another man he's going to rape you, it seems weird to assume he'd mean it in any other way.
The argument is a counter-appeal to ridicule, showing that him ridiculing that idea, is ridiculous in itself.
I personally don't use the word rape in this way, because I do feel like it may offend someone, but I don't want to push my judgements on other people, since I can't accurately say that they mean it in a mysoginistic way.
There is a difference between the argument "people are being offended by this, so you should stop saying it" and "people could be offended by this, so you should stop saying it" JWD is making the former argument, with regard to "rape", and the appeal to absurdity wrt "own" was of the form of the latter, so JWD's ridicule is not ridiculous. Well, it might be, but it being ridiculous doesn't mean the argument against "rape" is.
The point is that JWD may influence some about the word, and that's good, but the name-calling, the obvious attempt to say that he isn't part of the problem that keeps women out of Teamliquid, and yet he is. There are just so many things wrong with him posting publicly about this, decrying so many people. He even posted an argument that he sorely lost against one of the "insensitively lazy" people. He basically said he had a right to be condescending, which is wrong, and he did say some presumptuous things about the person in question. Just the overall attitude, is bad. I feel by exposing the logical fallacies in his debate tactics, and his hypocritical actions (due to past postings of very potentially offensive videos and pictures), maybe he will settle down on the self-righteousness a bit.
@Aberu: wow! This is a solid roast. I think you're blasting me in many of the same ways I did myself in the OP. I admitted to being condescending, said my PM was douchey, that I represented my position terribly in that PM exchange, and that it's a "hard sell" to approach the issue like I did. On those counts you're just reiterating my shortcomings (which is ofc fine).
One thing I object to (and you're not the only one to have mentioned this) is that I can't touch this issue because my blogs are also "offensive" for including pictures and video of beautiful women. I don't follow this at all. Admiring female/male beauty isn't callous or off-putting like misusing "rape" is. My posts are certainly part of TL's "bro culture" — but I was careful about this in my OP; note I said "some elements of this bro culture are dispensable". Misusing "rape" is dispensable — it's relatively off-putting and, importantly, it adds no discernible value here. It's just not at all important that we cling to misusing this word when there are many equally satisfying alternatives. Being able to post/view a picture of a good-looking woman on TL, though, has a pretty high value. And unless it's done really tactlessly (which I try hard to avoid) it's not offensive at all.
In general I'm having trouble figuring out how exactly you disagree with my broader points about the word. Seems you also don't think "rape" should be used to mean "beat overwhelmingly", and you would rather TLers wouldn't use it this way. So you're just objecting to my approach? If this is true you are being quite heavy handed.
On April 14 2011 23:42 kittymakemybed wrote: Good work. Please keep contributing.
I stalked your non-TL blog this morning. Did you see Beach House live recently? I saw them in NYC and their last show in DC. Amazing. Looking forward to May when Fleet Foxes start touring.
You prompted me to register. Not easy finding people with shared interests working where I do. No one knows what a 'Starcraft' is and have only vaguely heard of Radiohead.
I do have an amazing girlfriend who goes to shows with me and will, on occasion, play a few games of Starjeweled. She does the jewel-breaking while I form our armies. We are a pretty deadly force.
Thanks again JWD!
no problem! Will do. I did see Beach House recently — they were in Philly this spring. (Also saw them here on their first Teen Dream tour, a year ago.) They're always phenomenal live, but this time around they had so many more fans! I was wowed; I'd never seen the venue nearly as crowded. Deserved, to be sure. One of my favorite bands.
All of Fleet Foxes' NYC shows are sold out so I might end up traveling back to Philadelphia to see them at a reasonable price.
Welcome to TL!
I am totally balking at your Starjeweled reference, but I feel I should be picking up on it. What's it about? Did I inadvertently bring up something Starjeweled-related in my OP? For some reason I suspect it has to do with something completely non-TL-related...
On April 15 2011 06:51 Zafrumi wrote: kate upton has a new fan! I cant stop watching that video... she has something mesmerizing about her I dunno hehe
completely agree. so charming
@jon arbuckle: as usual I really enjoyed your post. I'll be looking into those music recommendations.
@Tyler: sup! Downloaded all that stuff. "iamdonald" is familiar but I don't think I've listened to him before. looking forward to it.
Donald Glover is the fucking man and his music under alias Childish Gambino is so good! That new EP is his best yet, but his full album Culdesac (free download here) is pretty damn good too. And all of his music is always free, as he makes money from acting, writing and touring. He's planning to release a full album this summer.
He also did a remix of Sufjan Stevens' album Illinois, called Illin-Noise and under the alias mc DJ. Link
On April 15 2011 22:38 JWD wrote: @jon arbuckle: as usual I really enjoyed your post. I'll be looking into those music recommendations.
Seefeel in particular absorbed dream pop into dub on Polyfusia and Quique and then evaporated off the excess for Succour, one of the best records from Warp. Richard D. James was a big fan (his "Time to Find Me" remixes are canon). For a Beach House fan, you should get a kick out of them.
Youtubes below, although it seems most of their songs on there are transcode or horribly distorted. Not representative at all.
Donald Glover is the fucking man and his music under alias Childish Gambino is so good! That new EP is his best yet, but his full album Culdesac (free download here) is pretty damn good too. And all of his music is always free, as he makes money from acting, writing and touring. He's planning to release a full album this summer.
He also did a remix of Sufjan Stevens' album Illinois, called Illin-Noise and under the alias mc DJ. Link
I listened to Childish Gambino EP on your suggestion and I'm very impressed. It's like a clever mix of Kanye with Lil Wayne and I can definitely get behind that combo. Great stuff.
On April 15 2011 13:06 jon arbuckle wrote: Conflating pornography with the female models JWD's libido has deposited (or thrust or inserted) into #1 and #10 (when potpourri) of every blog entry so far, and equating those manifestations of JWD's libido with the latent chauvinism or even misogyny implied by use of the word "rape" (not to mention how explicit this misogyny is in gaming culture and on the Internet overall), is infinitely worse than deterring people from salient misogyny by harping on their language. Don't want to get into fisticuffs over whether erotic representation is inherently violent, but certainly blurring the semantics of the word and therefore concept of "rape" is at best avoided, right?
Eh, maybe?
I think reforming language with the understanding that you're actually rooting out misogyny is kind of misguided. Language changes on large scales occur for reasons other than a hatred of women or a belief in their equality.
If you believe that there is a "structure" to language and to society and that those structures are architecturally oppressive of women, I suppose you could spend your time scolding individuals for acting according to that structure's directives. But even then I think it's kind of a long way around.
On April 17 2011 05:40 Inori wrote: Also I let my gf read your post and ask if you came off as a hypocrite and she said "yes, definately".
haha! amazing
serious question: what if I included 10 pictures of heavier and less attractive women in the OP? Would it be acceptable then?
JWD, it's impressive to see you handle criticism with such equanimity! But don't you find that statement kind of weird?
"Hey, JWD, I think you're treating women like objects by focusing solely on their appearances!" "Oh, good point! What if I posted some uglier ones as well, though?"
I got nothing but love for you and for your blogs, but I'm just saying!
On April 17 2011 07:34 HULKAMANIA wrote: "Hey, JWD, I think you're treating women like objects by focusing solely on their appearances!" "Oh, good point! What if I posted some uglier ones as well, though?"
I got nothing but love for you and for your blogs, but I'm just saying!
You have a point there--the only reason I responded as I did is that I read his criticism to be that images of thin women make other women feel uncomfortable. I don't think he was complaining about posting pictures of women in general.
But since you're taking that angle, a few words on it: I'd really hate to have to accompany each of my blogs with a disclaimer that specifies that I don't think women should be seen as objects. And I think it's sad and unfair that any one who looked at this OP might assume I see women as objects solely because it includes some pictures and video of pretty women. Isn't it possible to appreciate female beauty without being a misogynist?
On April 15 2011 13:06 jon arbuckle wrote: Conflating pornography with the female models JWD's libido has deposited (or thrust or inserted) into #1 and #10 (when potpourri) of every blog entry so far, and equating those manifestations of JWD's libido with the latent chauvinism or even misogyny implied by use of the word "rape" (not to mention how explicit this misogyny is in gaming culture and on the Internet overall), is infinitely worse than deterring people from salient misogyny by harping on their language. Don't want to get into fisticuffs over whether erotic representation is inherently violent, but certainly blurring the semantics of the word and therefore concept of "rape" is at best avoided, right?
Eh, maybe?
I think reforming language with the understanding that you're actually rooting out misogyny is kind of misguided. Language changes on large scales occur for reasons other than a hatred of women or a belief in their equality.
If you believe that there is a "structure" to language and to society and that those structures are architecturally oppressive of women, I suppose you could spend your time scolding individuals for acting according to that structure's directives. But even then I think it's kind of a long way around.
You're right. JWD's methodology (which even he seems to have disavowed) is flawed and misguided but undertaken with the best of intentions. Gaming culture and the Internet's general misogyny, of which I take the indicated usage of the word "rape" to be symptomatic, is a larger issue and definitely not easily rooted out by what JWD did (because it's not unique to TL.net, nor the gaming community, nor the Internet, nor the world, etc. etc.).
My issue is with the fire coming down on JWD's taste in women as reflected in the blog and his blithely posting them alongside the whole "rape" thingie. That those pictures are comparable to pornography (as if "pornography" only reflects one sexual attitude, no matter what its disposition); that erotic visual media is always means sexual objectification, and that sexual objectification always means sexual violence, and that sexual violence in this sense becomes "rape." I'm not in a position to say how a woman should or would feel in response to the blogs, or even that all women would have the same responses (Sasha Grey as opposed to Inori's girlfriend, for example). However, if erotic representation = rape, then we're advocating sexual restriction, and then we're back where we've started.
A lot of talk in this blog is inching towards that assertion - to not post images of attractive women because that's as bad as "rape," whatever its referent - and at the risk of being outed as a chauvinist or charlatan, coming from a vaguely sex-positive position, no way.
I mean, I don't like yaoi, but I know girls who do, and that's awesome.
On April 17 2011 05:40 Inori wrote: Also I let my gf read your post and ask if you came off as a hypocrite and she said "yes, definately".
haha! amazing
serious question: what if I included 10 pictures of heavier and less attractive women in the OP? Would it be acceptable then?
JWD, it's impressive to see you handle criticism with such equanimity! But don't you find that statement kind of weird?
"Hey, JWD, I think you're treating women like objects by focusing solely on their appearances!" "Oh, good point! What if I posted some uglier ones as well, though?"
Well, if erotic representation of a certain body type in JWD's blogs (corresponding to his taste in women) is what makes them reflect the same subtle misogyny as ambiguous application of the word "rape," then yeah, that would be the solution.
A willfully disingenuous one that skirts the issue, but yeah.
There are people who like to be beautiful, by having beautiful bodies and fashion, and there are people who appreciate beautiful people. There's nothing wrong with that.
There are women who think they need to be "beautiful" (I put it in quotes because it's not exactly having to do with beauty but more to do with the way mainstream society views what's sexually attractive and what isn't) in order to get what they need in life. And there are men that treat women poorly unless they are "beautiful." There's obviously something wrong with these attitudes and that's where feminism comes in.
Do the innocent people in the first paragraph perpetuate the attitudes of the peoples in the second paragraph? I think we have to say yes, of course they do to some degree. We can't easily say to what degree. But it's possible to fix those attitudes without shutting down the pursuit and appreciation of human beauty. So, attempts at shutting down the pursuit and appreciation of human beauty are understandably met with reluctance.
On April 17 2011 07:34 HULKAMANIA wrote: "Hey, JWD, I think you're treating women like objects by focusing solely on their appearances!" "Oh, good point! What if I posted some uglier ones as well, though?"
I got nothing but love for you and for your blogs, but I'm just saying!
You have a point there--the only reason I responded as I did is that I read his criticism to be that images of thin women make other women feel uncomfortable. I don't think he was complaining about posting pictures of women in general.
But since you're taking that angle, a few words on it: I'd really hate to have to accompany each of my blogs with a disclaimer that specifies that I don't think women should be seen as objects. And I think it's sad and unfair that any one who looked at this OP might assume I see women as objects solely because it includes some pictures and video of pretty women. Isn't it possible to appreciate female beauty without being a misogynist?
I certainly think so.
There are, however, feminists who would vehemently disagree with you. (Off the top of my head, I would point to the essay "The Sticky Embrace of Beauty" by Anne Frances Wysocki, but that's only because I just read it recently. There's plenty of literature on how the "aestheticized other" can become the object of violent "formal judgement.") I tend to not buy their arguments, but I think they're of a kind with yours. Which leads me to:
On April 15 2011 13:06 jon arbuckle wrote: Conflating pornography with the female models JWD's libido has deposited (or thrust or inserted) into #1 and #10 (when potpourri) of every blog entry so far, and equating those manifestations of JWD's libido with the latent chauvinism or even misogyny implied by use of the word "rape" (not to mention how explicit this misogyny is in gaming culture and on the Internet overall), is infinitely worse than deterring people from salient misogyny by harping on their language. Don't want to get into fisticuffs over whether erotic representation is inherently violent, but certainly blurring the semantics of the word and therefore concept of "rape" is at best avoided, right?
Eh, maybe?
I think reforming language with the understanding that you're actually rooting out misogyny is kind of misguided. Language changes on large scales occur for reasons other than a hatred of women or a belief in their equality.
If you believe that there is a "structure" to language and to society and that those structures are architecturally oppressive of women, I suppose you could spend your time scolding individuals for acting according to that structure's directives. But even then I think it's kind of a long way around.
You're right. JWD's methodology (which even he seems to have disavowed) is flawed and misguided but undertaken with the best of intentions. Gaming culture and the Internet's general misogyny, of which I take the indicated usage of the word "rape" to be symptomatic, is a larger issue and definitely not easily rooted out by what JWD did (because it's not unique to TL.net, nor the gaming community, nor the Internet, nor the world, etc. etc.).
I agree that a stricter vocabulary regimen is a flawed cure for misogyny. However I also think that analysis of vocabulary is a flawed means of diagnosis.
I emphatically don't think that use of the word "rape" is a symptom of some culture misogyny that's inherent in larger culture of gaming—any more than I think that the syntax of users of “Black Vernacular English” is a symptom of illogical thinking, any more than I think that the frequency of “like” and “you know” in today’s youth indicates laziness or fogginess in the brain, any more than I think that the use of the phrase “god damn” suggests anything definite about one’s theological convictions or the convictions of the culture in which that speaker was raised.
Lexical variety and change are not simple or structured phenomena. There is no clear correspondence between a given lexical feature and some hidden assumption that prompts that feature. But language in use often becomes simple and structured and clearly correspondent to an intellectual stance in arguments of people who have set out to prove some pre-existent notion about some target demographic.
A lot of talk in this blog is inching towards that assertion - to not post images of attractive women because that's as bad as "rape," whatever its referent - and at the risk of being outed as a chauvinist or charlatan, coming from a vaguely sex-positive position, no way.
That’s a really interesting reading of this thread, and I’m not saying that euphemistically.
I only wanted to mention the girl-pics as evidence of how a not-necessarily-misogynistic gesture can be easily misinterpreted as a misogynistic gesture—especially in our hyperaware day and age where misogynists, racists, and fundamentalists are the new witches whose heresies we must hound out in the name of reason and light and orthodoxy.
I mean ultimately I’m willing to entertain the notion that TL might be “misogynistic.” Personally, I doubt that TL (comprised as it is primarily by a bunch of young—strike one!—men who are probably high-schoolers and/or college students—strike two!) would rank very high on any given moral rubric. What I don’t think is that this indicates is that the “culture” of TL has a structure that encourages hostility towards women. The culture of TL is definitely no more toxic, in my experience, than the culture of academia whence originate such assessments.
Human beings in the aggregate almost never acquit themselves admirably, but the reasons for their manifold failures are considerably more complicated than we-need-to-educate-the-masses theories like the one espoused here ever admit to.
On April 17 2011 05:40 Inori wrote: Also I let my gf read your post and ask if you came off as a hypocrite and she said "yes, definately".
haha! amazing
serious question: what if I included 10 pictures of heavier and less attractive women in the OP? Would it be acceptable then?
JWD, it's impressive to see you handle criticism with such equanimity! But don't you find that statement kind of weird?
"Hey, JWD, I think you're treating women like objects by focusing solely on their appearances!" "Oh, good point! What if I posted some uglier ones as well, though?"
Well, if erotic representation of a certain body type in JWD's blogs (corresponding to his taste in women) is what makes them reflect the same subtle misogyny as ambiguous application of the word "rape," then yeah, that would be the solution.
A willfully disingenuous one that skirts the issue, but yeah.
On April 17 2011 11:08 HULKAMANIA wrote: (Off the top of my head, I would point to the essay "The Sticky Embrace of Beauty" by Anne Frances Wysocki, but that's only because I just read it recently. There's plenty of literature on how the "aestheticized other" can become the object of violent "formal judgement.") I tend to not buy their arguments, but I think they're of a kind with yours.
I'm afraid of Andrea Dworkin because my philosophy of "men and women should with equal respect and happiness and rights enjoy themselves and get their rocks off provided all those involved are having a swell ol' time of it" is hard to gussy up with proof in academic-speak, where it seems problematizing (or, worse yet, problematicizing) is preferable to chillin'.
On April 15 2011 13:06 jon arbuckle wrote: Conflating pornography with the female models JWD's libido has deposited (or thrust or inserted) into #1 and #10 (when potpourri) of every blog entry so far, and equating those manifestations of JWD's libido with the latent chauvinism or even misogyny implied by use of the word "rape" (not to mention how explicit this misogyny is in gaming culture and on the Internet overall), is infinitely worse than deterring people from salient misogyny by harping on their language. Don't want to get into fisticuffs over whether erotic representation is inherently violent, but certainly blurring the semantics of the word and therefore concept of "rape" is at best avoided, right?
Eh, maybe?
I think reforming language with the understanding that you're actually rooting out misogyny is kind of misguided. Language changes on large scales occur for reasons other than a hatred of women or a belief in their equality.
If you believe that there is a "structure" to language and to society and that those structures are architecturally oppressive of women, I suppose you could spend your time scolding individuals for acting according to that structure's directives. But even then I think it's kind of a long way around.
You're right. JWD's methodology (which even he seems to have disavowed) is flawed and misguided but undertaken with the best of intentions. Gaming culture and the Internet's general misogyny, of which I take the indicated usage of the word "rape" to be symptomatic, is a larger issue and definitely not easily rooted out by what JWD did (because it's not unique to TL.net, nor the gaming community, nor the Internet, nor the world, etc. etc.).
I agree that a stricter vocabulary regimen is a flawed cure for misogyny. However I also think that analysis of vocabulary is a flawed means of diagnosis.
[. . .]
Lexical variety and change are not simple or structured phenomena. There is no clear correspondence between a given lexical feature and some hidden assumption that prompts that feature. But language in use often becomes simple and structured and clearly correspondent to an intellectual stance in arguments of people who have set out to prove some pre-existent notion about some target demographic.
Well, it's bigger than the word "rape." That's why the method fails, and why I'm not particularly interested in posing a convincing argument as to why the word "rape" is totally indebted to some underlying misogynistic root cause, or posing any sort of argument attempting to bracket some latent inequality whose basis is entirely composed in the English language; that type of reasoning is God is dog spelled backwards. The primary motive for using "rape" is that it conveys a sense of violence, violation, and power, and does so briefly; the gender concerns are tertiary. Eradicating misuse of the word "rape" is like smashing and grabbing on the corner while Stringer Bell gets away.
Blah blah blah Althusser ideology silent agency etc. blah blah blah, but coupled with how in-game or athletic prowess is posed in male/female binaries (or the fucker and the fuckee, which may be something paraphrased from Dworkin, so go fig), "rape" appears to be another facet of competitive dominance conceptualized in terms of gender roles. Take that with the whole gb2 kitchen lol brand of 4chan humour, or even some of the more disastrous blogs on TL.net (not this one obv!!!!!!!!!), and that's where "rape" appears as part of a larger tapestry of (sorta, kinda) misogyny - which, again, as an overall tendency, is larger than TL.net and even gamers.
On April 17 2011 11:08 HULKAMANIA wrote: ...any more than I think that the frequency of “like” and “you know” in today’s youth indicates laziness or fogginess in the brain...
This only pisses me off when it becomes an ellipses linking together non-sequiturs in what is supposed to be a thought-out position on an abstract concept and/or moral question. This happens a lot at parties. I am a fun guy.
On April 17 2011 11:08 HULKAMANIA wrote: I mean ultimately I’m willing to entertain the notion that TL might be “misogynistic.” Personally, I doubt that TL (comprised as it is primarily by a bunch of young—strike one!—men who are probably high-schoolers and/or college students—strike two!) would rank very high on any given moral rubric. What I don’t think is that this indicates is that the “culture” of TL has a structure that encourages hostility towards women. The culture of TL is definitely no more toxic, in my experience, than the culture of academia whence originate such assessments.
Being that TL.net bans the most egregious behaviour, it might be better than a lot of other DISCOURSE COMMUNITIES, if not perfect.
We're mostly in agreement; I typed my previous post in something of a jittery, twelfth-cup-of-coffee-in-one-hour spasm wherein I searched frantically for and failed to find a synonym for "misogyny," a word I realize(d) is way to severe for what I'm trying to get at.
On April 17 2011 11:08 HULKAMANIA wrote: (Off the top of my head, I would point to the essay "The Sticky Embrace of Beauty" by Anne Frances Wysocki, but that's only because I just read it recently. There's plenty of literature on how the "aestheticized other" can become the object of violent "formal judgement.") I tend to not buy their arguments, but I think they're of a kind with yours.
I'm afraid of Andrea Dworkin because my philosophy of "men and women should with equal respect and happiness and rights enjoy themselves and get their rocks off provided all those involved are having a swell ol' time of it" is hard to gussy up with proof in academic-speak, where it seems problematizing (or, worse yet, problematicizing) is preferable to chillin'.
On April 15 2011 13:06 jon arbuckle wrote: Conflating pornography with the female models JWD's libido has deposited (or thrust or inserted) into #1 and #10 (when potpourri) of every blog entry so far, and equating those manifestations of JWD's libido with the latent chauvinism or even misogyny implied by use of the word "rape" (not to mention how explicit this misogyny is in gaming culture and on the Internet overall), is infinitely worse than deterring people from salient misogyny by harping on their language. Don't want to get into fisticuffs over whether erotic representation is inherently violent, but certainly blurring the semantics of the word and therefore concept of "rape" is at best avoided, right?
Eh, maybe?
I think reforming language with the understanding that you're actually rooting out misogyny is kind of misguided. Language changes on large scales occur for reasons other than a hatred of women or a belief in their equality.
If you believe that there is a "structure" to language and to society and that those structures are architecturally oppressive of women, I suppose you could spend your time scolding individuals for acting according to that structure's directives. But even then I think it's kind of a long way around.
You're right. JWD's methodology (which even he seems to have disavowed) is flawed and misguided but undertaken with the best of intentions. Gaming culture and the Internet's general misogyny, of which I take the indicated usage of the word "rape" to be symptomatic, is a larger issue and definitely not easily rooted out by what JWD did (because it's not unique to TL.net, nor the gaming community, nor the Internet, nor the world, etc. etc.).
I agree that a stricter vocabulary regimen is a flawed cure for misogyny. However I also think that analysis of vocabulary is a flawed means of diagnosis.
[. . .]
Lexical variety and change are not simple or structured phenomena. There is no clear correspondence between a given lexical feature and some hidden assumption that prompts that feature. But language in use often becomes simple and structured and clearly correspondent to an intellectual stance in arguments of people who have set out to prove some pre-existent notion about some target demographic.
Well, it's bigger than the word "rape." That's why the method fails, and why I'm not particularly interested in posing a convincing argument as to why the word "rape" is totally indebted to some underlying misogynistic root cause, or posing any sort of argument attempting to bracket some latent inequality whose basis is entirely composed in the English language; that type of reasoning is God is dog spelled backwards. The primary motive for using "rape" is that it conveys a sense of violence, violation, and power, and does so briefly; the gender concerns are tertiary. Eradicating misuse of the word "rape" is like smashing and grabbing on the corner while Stringer Bell gets away.
Blah blah blah Althusser ideology silent agency etc. blah blah blah, but coupled with how in-game or athletic prowess is posed in male/female binaries (or the fucker and the fuckee, which may be something paraphrased from Dworkin, so go fig), "rape" appears to be another facet of competitive dominance conceptualized in terms of gender roles. Take that with the whole gb2 kitchen lol brand of 4chan humour, or even some of the more disastrous blogs on TL.net (not this one obv!!!!!!!!!), and that's where "rape" appears as part of a larger tapestry of (sorta, kinda) misogyny - which, again, as an overall tendency, is larger than TL.net and even gamers.
On April 17 2011 11:08 HULKAMANIA wrote: ...any more than I think that the frequency of “like” and “you know” in today’s youth indicates laziness or fogginess in the brain...
This only pisses me off when it becomes an ellipses linking together non-sequiturs in what is supposed to be a thought-out position on an abstract concept and/or moral question. This happens a lot at parties. I am a fun guy.
On April 17 2011 11:08 HULKAMANIA wrote: I mean ultimately I’m willing to entertain the notion that TL might be “misogynistic.” Personally, I doubt that TL (comprised as it is primarily by a bunch of young—strike one!—men who are probably high-schoolers and/or college students—strike two!) would rank very high on any given moral rubric. What I don’t think is that this indicates is that the “culture” of TL has a structure that encourages hostility towards women. The culture of TL is definitely no more toxic, in my experience, than the culture of academia whence originate such assessments.
Being that TL.net bans the most egregious behaviour, it might be better than a lot of other DISCOURSE COMMUNITIES, if not perfect.
We're mostly in agreement; I typed my previous post in something of a jittery, twelfth-cup-of-coffee-in-one-hour spasm wherein I searched frantically for and failed to find a synonym for "misogyny," a word I realize(d) is way to severe for what I'm trying to get at.
I want you to know that I enjoyed reading your post even though I had to wikipedia who the hell Stringer Bell is (who, as it turns, is played by a guy that I recognize from the American version of The Office).
(And maybe I just play too much Gears of War 2, where the number of dudes t-bagging dudes has distorted my view of gender—as well as species, for that matter—roles in competitive dominance, but I dunno. I just can't shake the feeling that most of the rhetoric I've heard on this topic is bass ackwards, which leads me to conclude that a certain allowance for conceptual indeterminancy here is healthy.)
At any rate, we are mostly in agreement. I just tend to think that your aforementioned tapestry was woven by humankind's eternal propensity to be in general shitty and self-interested and short-sighted, which is one impulse in which we're strictly equal opportunity, respecting neither race nor class nor gender nor age nor orientation nor right-or-left-handedness nor favorite color nor opinion on the ultimate origins and purpose of the universe.
On April 17 2011 11:08 HULKAMANIA wrote: (Off the top of my head, I would point to the essay "The Sticky Embrace of Beauty" by Anne Frances Wysocki, but that's only because I just read it recently. There's plenty of literature on how the "aestheticized other" can become the object of violent "formal judgement.") I tend to not buy their arguments, but I think they're of a kind with yours.
I'm afraid of Andrea Dworkin because my philosophy of "men and women should with equal respect and happiness and rights enjoy themselves and get their rocks off provided all those involved are having a swell ol' time of it" is hard to gussy up with proof in academic-speak, where it seems problematizing (or, worse yet, problematicizing) is preferable to chillin'.
On April 17 2011 11:08 HULKAMANIA wrote:
On April 17 2011 08:31 jon arbuckle wrote:
On April 17 2011 07:34 HULKAMANIA wrote:
On April 15 2011 13:06 jon arbuckle wrote: Conflating pornography with the female models JWD's libido has deposited (or thrust or inserted) into #1 and #10 (when potpourri) of every blog entry so far, and equating those manifestations of JWD's libido with the latent chauvinism or even misogyny implied by use of the word "rape" (not to mention how explicit this misogyny is in gaming culture and on the Internet overall), is infinitely worse than deterring people from salient misogyny by harping on their language. Don't want to get into fisticuffs over whether erotic representation is inherently violent, but certainly blurring the semantics of the word and therefore concept of "rape" is at best avoided, right?
Eh, maybe?
I think reforming language with the understanding that you're actually rooting out misogyny is kind of misguided. Language changes on large scales occur for reasons other than a hatred of women or a belief in their equality.
If you believe that there is a "structure" to language and to society and that those structures are architecturally oppressive of women, I suppose you could spend your time scolding individuals for acting according to that structure's directives. But even then I think it's kind of a long way around.
You're right. JWD's methodology (which even he seems to have disavowed) is flawed and misguided but undertaken with the best of intentions. Gaming culture and the Internet's general misogyny, of which I take the indicated usage of the word "rape" to be symptomatic, is a larger issue and definitely not easily rooted out by what JWD did (because it's not unique to TL.net, nor the gaming community, nor the Internet, nor the world, etc. etc.).
I agree that a stricter vocabulary regimen is a flawed cure for misogyny. However I also think that analysis of vocabulary is a flawed means of diagnosis.
[. . .]
Lexical variety and change are not simple or structured phenomena. There is no clear correspondence between a given lexical feature and some hidden assumption that prompts that feature. But language in use often becomes simple and structured and clearly correspondent to an intellectual stance in arguments of people who have set out to prove some pre-existent notion about some target demographic.
Well, it's bigger than the word "rape." That's why the method fails, and why I'm not particularly interested in posing a convincing argument as to why the word "rape" is totally indebted to some underlying misogynistic root cause, or posing any sort of argument attempting to bracket some latent inequality whose basis is entirely composed in the English language; that type of reasoning is God is dog spelled backwards. The primary motive for using "rape" is that it conveys a sense of violence, violation, and power, and does so briefly; the gender concerns are tertiary. Eradicating misuse of the word "rape" is like smashing and grabbing on the corner while Stringer Bell gets away.
Blah blah blah Althusser ideology silent agency etc. blah blah blah, but coupled with how in-game or athletic prowess is posed in male/female binaries (or the fucker and the fuckee, which may be something paraphrased from Dworkin, so go fig), "rape" appears to be another facet of competitive dominance conceptualized in terms of gender roles. Take that with the whole gb2 kitchen lol brand of 4chan humour, or even some of the more disastrous blogs on TL.net (not this one obv!!!!!!!!!), and that's where "rape" appears as part of a larger tapestry of (sorta, kinda) misogyny - which, again, as an overall tendency, is larger than TL.net and even gamers.
On April 17 2011 11:08 HULKAMANIA wrote: ...any more than I think that the frequency of “like” and “you know” in today’s youth indicates laziness or fogginess in the brain...
This only pisses me off when it becomes an ellipses linking together non-sequiturs in what is supposed to be a thought-out position on an abstract concept and/or moral question. This happens a lot at parties. I am a fun guy.
On April 17 2011 11:08 HULKAMANIA wrote: I mean ultimately I’m willing to entertain the notion that TL might be “misogynistic.” Personally, I doubt that TL (comprised as it is primarily by a bunch of young—strike one!—men who are probably high-schoolers and/or college students—strike two!) would rank very high on any given moral rubric. What I don’t think is that this indicates is that the “culture” of TL has a structure that encourages hostility towards women. The culture of TL is definitely no more toxic, in my experience, than the culture of academia whence originate such assessments.
Being that TL.net bans the most egregious behaviour, it might be better than a lot of other DISCOURSE COMMUNITIES, if not perfect.
We're mostly in agreement; I typed my previous post in something of a jittery, twelfth-cup-of-coffee-in-one-hour spasm wherein I searched frantically for and failed to find a synonym for "misogyny," a word I realize(d) is way to severe for what I'm trying to get at.
I want you to know that I enjoyed reading your post even though I had to wikipedia who the hell Stringer Bell is (who, as it turns, is played by a guy that I recognize from the American version of The Office).
(And maybe I just play too much Gears of War 2, where the number of dudes t-bagging dudes has distorted my view of gender—as well as species, for that matter—roles in competitive dominance, but I dunno. I just can't shake the feeling that most of the rhetoric I've heard on this topic is bass ackwards, which leads me to conclude that a certain allowance for conceptual indeterminancy here is healthy.)
At any rate, we are mostly in agreement. I just tend to think that your aforementioned tapestry was woven by humankind's eternal propensity to be in general shitty and self-interested and short-sighted, which is one impulse in which we're strictly equal opportunity, respecting neither race nor class nor gender nor age nor orientation nor right-or-left-handedness nor favorite color nor opinion on the ultimate origins and purpose of the universe.
Please go download and watch 'The Wire' immediately.
On April 17 2011 13:45 HULKAMANIA wrote: At any rate, we are mostly in agreement. I just tend to think that your aforementioned tapestry was woven by humankind's eternal propensity to be in general shitty and self-interested and short-sighted, which is one impulse in which we're strictly equal opportunity, respecting neither race nor class nor gender nor age nor orientation nor right-or-left-handedness nor favorite color nor opinion on the ultimate origins and purpose of the universe.
People are pretty awesome overall. I just wish I wasn't such a curmudgeon.
On April 18 2011 02:48 Inori wrote: ... Or you could just return to posting your blog series, while staying neutral yourself.
this is my blog series. I have no obligation to stay neutral about anything. (It'd be really boring if I did!)
P.S. Oh yeah, in your crusade against word "rape" have you actually considered asking females how they feel about it? For example, my gf says that it doesn't concern her at all and you have too much spare time if you managed to make such a big deal about it.
Why are you posting in such a nasty tone? I don't really think it's fair to brand my ~50 PMs sent in 1 day last year a "crusade".
I've asked a couple girls I know about it, after reading some comments in this thread. They both agreed it's distasteful. In 10th grade a smart teacher of mine corrected me for misusing the word and I've been on her side of the issue since. All this is just extremely limited anecdotal evidence, of course. I undertook this crusade in no small part because I myself don't like to read the word misused.
I'm not sure if the point of questioning the use of the word rape is about rooting out the misogyny of TL, although it would be great if that worked! Misogyny is insidious, and I don't think anyone is arguing that removing the word rape is to remove misogyny on any internet DISCOURSE COMMUNITY (lol), or the world. It seems, to me, to be more like neosporin. It's not supposed to stop you from falling down and hurting yourself, but when you do it can stop the wound from hurting and becoming infected. It's a bandaid. It's a stop gap. It's so that people who have experienced rape don't have to hear it being used as a joke, it's so casters don't sound juvenile to potential investors, it's so that the culture at large can look at gamers as something more than testosterone pumping pubescents. Regardless of mainstream culture's beliefs about gendered violence or inequality, you would never hear a sports caster on ESPN say rape. Using the word dates us. It screams immaturity. And it offends in an internet community that is becoming less and less anonymous (I'm sure there are plenty of posts and videos that certain TL celebrities would rather forget). Someone can create an eloquent justification of the word's usage and it would still look bad to most non-gaming adults.
From what I understood of your posts I think I am in agreement with both of you, insofar as the discussion being about etymological debate. I just wanted to share that I see the question of saying "rape" in a slightly different way. I do also want to thank both of you (and JWD) for the good-intentioned healthy discussion. It is very refreshing.
Firstly, I came to this blog via Chef’s blog, “Tea, Starcraft and Sex,” wondering, who is this JWD?
When I was introduced to the TL community I immediately sensed a chauvinistic attitude, but hardly misogynistic. I’ve read posts that, as a woman, offended me tremendously. I encountered phrases such as “Show some tits." The tone, of which, women have vehemently fought to squelch for generations. Others: “Make me a sammich, woman!” or “Why is she out of the kitchen?” was so 50s-ish that I had to laugh.
To post pictures and videos of beautiful women is neither chauvinistic, nor misogynistic; and whilst cliché, “Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.” Today’s standard for beauty, however, differs from other eras, regions, and cultures and will continue to change as society dictates. The woman’s body, with its curves and roundness and fleshiness is a glorious sight and, since the beginning of time, has been touted as a work of art. I highly doubt anyone can argue with that. The difference is in the way it’s presented. It’s either erotic or porn.
The words, however, used in game by players, the vast majority of which are male, (some more mature than others) made me feel uncomfortable at first; however, as with “beauty” each generation/era creates their own connotation to words of yore. Shakespeare, for one, made up words when he was at a loss to describe what he meant. Many of those words are used today. I’ve made up words (one in this post) to better describe what I mean, or to prevent others from knowing what I mean. *insert evil grin*
Rape is a plant of the mustard family cultivated as fodder. The word "rape" is used in wineries to define the refuse of grape that’s left after extraction. We, however, relate it to a heinous crime perpetrated upon both men and women, and thus, take offense.
How many people find the word “cunt” offensive? I’d venture to say the vast majority of women would slap your face. But its origin is that of “queen.” So, before you think of calling me one, bow to the queen! Lol (which is now in the dictionary)
Other words, which have been tagged as dirty or distasteful, “whore,” in Persia, is simply a beautiful woman who awaits men in heaven; “prostitute,” the lawgiver of the temple. So it’s not so much the word, but how it’s delivered that I might find abhorrent.
Frankly, whilst I do think we’ve become an overly sensitive people, if I were not familiar with gaming vernacular, I would definitely gasp at reading “Hey, man, you raped that dude good.”
By the way, I am a B.I.T.C.H who thoroughly enjoyed the discussion evoked by the OP.
On April 12 2011 11:52 duckett wrote: I'm a big JWD fan but calling the bro culture of TL terrible and publicizing his effort against it in the middle of a post full of porn is very ???
My thoughts exactly oh my god haahaha. "I'm very disappointed in TL for making women feel uncomfortable at TL. Also here's a bunch of pictures of a female body type which is unattainable for 95% of women just to make any women on this board feel really self-conscious. I have no idea what the male-gaze is. I am a wonderful feminist."
Not to say that I disagree with your point about bro-culture (though that wouldn't be my choice of words for a bunch of sexist young teenagers), it's perfectly valid. It's just that maybe you should try being a part of the solution rather than complaining about people who say rape (a tactless, but not gender specific term).
I think you're making a tu-quoque argument here. Sure, he's a part of the community and part of the culture, but that doesn't make his complaint any less valid. The fact of the matter is, people should still refrain from using the word rape, regardless of whether or not JWD posts pictures of women in his blog series.
Umm you misread that. The comment that JWD made was about not just the use of the word rape. Drawing a parallel between the kinds of videos he posts (which if you read my post, he posted one that had cartoon rape all over it) and the thing he is saying, you can see it is just plain hypocritical. It was intellectually dishonest, he got called out for it. Not like the awesomeness of his posts is any less awesome now however, just it was an interesting thing for him to rant on considering his history of posts.
A very good post again. Have you heard of 'Of Porcelain'? There recent album 'A Summer's Breeze' is pretty damn good and a name your price download which you can get here.
On the issue of posting women I think this quote by YimmYayo pretty much sums up the argument.
Objectification is subjective. I won’t lie, I’ve posted a large number of sexually driven images on this website, while not all may be traditionally tasteful, I don’t believe I have crossed the line of the gratuitous (but again this is subjective). This has almost always been done in an objective manner, leaving it up to the viewer to find their own feelings on the image, positive or not. ‘To assume only makes an ass of u and me’. I struggle to find the information I’ve posted on this website that declares that I’m a ‘player’ or disrespect women. This comes from those assuming they know me and in what context the imagery is being presented.
Whilst the argument about rape (and other terms used by certain communities) is a long and pretty boring one a point that needs to be raised (it probably already has been) is that just because a certain group of people use a offensive word in a seemingly inoffensive way (see Yid army and Tottenham Hotspurs) it does not mean that someone from the outside will not find the word offensive. As this a public forum I think the rule applies.
EPT
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