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On March 07 2011 04:57 etheovermind wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 04:55 stork4ever wrote:On March 07 2011 04:52 etheovermind wrote:On March 07 2011 04:48 miky_ardiente wrote:On March 07 2011 04:45 etheovermind wrote:On March 07 2011 04:32 Roflhaxx wrote: Savior start playing sc2! gogo! no kespa yay! STOP MAKING POSTS LIKE THIS! why ? , he should really do it, not that they are gonna let him but still at least give it a try, cuz there are still a lot of fans who want to see him play either bw or sc2, and u dont get to stop their desire If he plays SC2 and does mediocre like BoxeR and Nada and July and Grrrr it just ruins the image. If Savior goes to play SC2 and becomes some average bum, thats how everyone will remember him. ? we believe he will dominate But like or not, BW is harder. If Savior plays SC2, I doubt he would do any better than anyone else. This is not BW vs SC2 but SC2 is easier to play and doesn't reward the best players like BW does. Ask me a year ago whether Nada would dominate in SC2 and I would have said yes.
NaDa isn't playing anymore like he was in BW. He is studying now on University, he doesn't live with oGs team guys.
So you can't compare it like that.
July is not good cuz zerg isnt doing so well, and zerg around the world have problems to even join top 10 in their regions.
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What Savior did, is bad. But think about it really, he threw games for money right? And most likely encouraged others to do the same. To me while it a jerk thing to do, I can understand why it would happen. Money, money is why they become progamers and why their sponsors and teams pay for them.
Savior's real issue is that he dragged this on and drug people through a lot of crap before the truth came out. I imagine that if Savior had just admitted and apologized he wouldn't have been slammed so hard. I think that if he switches to SC2 that will be a huge second chance for him, and that whatever he does now he has something to prove.
Savior needs to restore people's faith in him again, not by winning. I don't even know how he would go about it, charity games or something. He does have a chance to make this all right I think. And he ought to take it, don't be remembered as the match fixing Savior. He needs to go out a Bonjwa, not a criminal.
As for the coach, I don't hold this against him, the outrage is natural. And he did apologize for it, he's a human being, forgive him and move on.
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to the poster EDIT: 2 above,
balance doesnt play an issue at the extreme top of play, look at gsl1 ^^
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On March 07 2011 05:14 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 04:54 frodoguy wrote:On March 07 2011 04:44 white_horse wrote:On March 07 2011 03:59 frodoguy wrote:On March 07 2011 03:32 white_horse wrote:On March 07 2011 03:15 frodoguy wrote:On March 07 2011 03:00 white_horse wrote:On March 07 2011 02:25 frodoguy wrote:On March 07 2011 02:20 white_horse wrote: um, your comparison is kind of inaccurate. The reason why Korean society is so hardcore against illegal things is not nationalism, its simply because its a more conservative culture than the west and confucian values still affect a lot of aspects of Korean society.
Well they do get reallly sensitive and flaming over stuff that is negative towards their country. But for whatever reason, they are just sensitive to the extreme, like to the extent where it bypasses rationality and thats really all im concerned about. They don't believe in second chances, for whatever the circumstances koreans being sensitive about korea as a country is a totally different issue...to outsiders that wonder why koreans are so defensive about their country, its because koreans suffered a lot in the past because china and japan invaded their country many times and it was through national unity and national defense that helped keep korea exist as a country...so koreans have been always been programmed to respond to any kind of encroachment to their country with fire. I see it as a just social thing; they see criticism of their country as an attack, which is why they are really sensitive to that kind of stuff. You can see similar cases in countries that have been invaded a lot, like ireland or israel. . Yeah that might be the reason, might be. But that doesn't really justify anything. Give me a reason why i should agree with this coach's rage and also korean's sensitivity. No matter how i think about it, i just can't agree to any extent what the coach tweeted. I never said I agreed with what the coach said. In fact, I think what he said was out of line. But Korea being very sensitive relative to other countries stems from cultural and historical differences, and if an outsider fails to understand that, then he/she is just being ignorant. This is why thoroughly understanding a different culture is so important when commenting about them so one doesn't look like total dumbass. I guarentee you there are chinese and japanese people who think koreans are high strung and uptight for no reason when the irony is that china and japan played extremely negative roles in Korean history and are part of the reason why korea's social personality is different from other countries. Its one thing to understand, but another to consider whether or not it is right or wrong. And thats what i wanna know. I understand them alright, but the sensitivity feels disgustingly wrong. ok...you think the sensitivity is wrong but in korea no one thinks its wrong because they happen to think differently than you. Your opinion is based on (I assume) western viewpoint so I have nothing more to say other than repeat that its a cultural difference. So ur average joe in korea thinks this is acceptable? you keep talking like its shocking and wrong that koreans are so hard-handed about something like this but I wrote like 3 times already that its simply a cultural difference. You don't think asian countries consider certain aspects of western culture as wrong/weird? And like I said before, a lot of people in the industry were very very disappointed about savior. Its a universal thing that people of high status are expected to have good character but its especially true in korea. And its true that savior damaged the reputation and scale of the industry in korea. You would expect that someone like him would work to make e-sports bigger but he did the exact opposite. sensitivity issues aside, I think people are just really angry and really disappointed about him because of what he has caused, not just the fact that he fixed matches.
Wow, that went really offtopic before i realised.
The real question is when are koreans gonna let go of the past, which is the most mature and natural thing to do. Its a shame it happened, but having a forever grudge is just childish.
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On March 07 2011 05:23 optical630 wrote: to the poster EDIT: 2 above,
balance doesnt play an issue at the extreme top of play, look at gsl1 ^^
well idk for sure but wasnt gsl1 have different maps and a different patch, and i mean a different "state of the game" (zerg more overpowered than right now)
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On March 07 2011 05:23 optical630 wrote: to the poster EDIT: 2 above,
balance doesnt play an issue at the extreme top of play, look at gsl1 ^^ So just because one player was 10x more skilled then the other it is balanced?
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The zerg players were not 10x more skilled than the terran players lol
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On March 07 2011 05:20 etheovermind wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 05:17 miky_ardiente wrote:On March 07 2011 04:52 etheovermind wrote:On March 07 2011 04:48 miky_ardiente wrote:On March 07 2011 04:45 etheovermind wrote:On March 07 2011 04:32 Roflhaxx wrote: Savior start playing sc2! gogo! no kespa yay! STOP MAKING POSTS LIKE THIS! why ? , he should really do it, not that they are gonna let him but still at least give it a try, cuz there are still a lot of fans who want to see him play either bw or sc2, and u dont get to stop their desire If he plays SC2 and does mediocre like BoxeR and Nada and July and Grrrr it just ruins the image. If Savior goes to play SC2 and becomes some average bum, thats how everyone will remember him. let me ask u something, when u hear nada, do u think of him as the great bw genius, the tornado terran or as mediocre sc2 player ? do u hear boxer and think of him as the emperor, the most important men in the history of e-sports or just as a mediocre sc2 player ? i think that doesnt matter if they suck or do poorly in sc2, fans will never forget, and savior was the first men to ever be called bonjwa and i dont think fans are just gonna forget that Well said I guess. I know I will always try to remember Nada like he was in BW but i still wish he had never switched to SC2. He is in top 8 is he not? I wouldn't call that mediocre..
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Savior should really switch to SC2 and own everyone who's talking shit to him.
Sure he did a mistake, but young people do way way way waaaay worse shit than that and a lot of them mature and end up as good people.
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i think there is a video about idra and artosis complaining about zerg being to weak atm, guess that wheter we like it or not, people always gonna complain the balance
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On March 07 2011 04:52 etheovermind wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 04:48 miky_ardiente wrote:On March 07 2011 04:45 etheovermind wrote:On March 07 2011 04:32 Roflhaxx wrote: Savior start playing sc2! gogo! no kespa yay! STOP MAKING POSTS LIKE THIS! why ? , he should really do it, not that they are gonna let him but still at least give it a try, cuz there are still a lot of fans who want to see him play either bw or sc2, and u dont get to stop their desire If he plays SC2 and does mediocre like BoxeR and Nada and July and Grrrr it just ruins the image. If Savior goes to play SC2 and becomes some average bum, thats how everyone will remember him.
Well first, I don't really think it's fair to call NaDa a mediocre SC2 player. He isn't the very top, but he's still a strong player. By ELO he's the #7 SC2 player in the Korean circuit.
Second, almost all the top SC2 players were BW progamers.By ELO: #1: MVP #2: Iron[Kal] #3: NSP_Fancy #4: Zergboy #5: TheSTC #6: Clare[Shield] #7: NaDa
It isn't until you get to #8 that I see someone who as far as I know was not a BW progamer.
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On March 07 2011 05:23 optical630 wrote: to the poster EDIT: 2 above,
balance doesnt play an issue at the extreme top of play, look at gsl1 ^^
Dude... come on.
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So, no link to recorded matches OR a vod?
Ahwwww whats this discussion about matchfixing? it wont change anything, whats done is done and please dont take corpses out of the grave just to beat them,
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1019 Posts
On March 07 2011 05:24 frodoguy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 05:14 white_horse wrote:On March 07 2011 04:54 frodoguy wrote:On March 07 2011 04:44 white_horse wrote:On March 07 2011 03:59 frodoguy wrote:On March 07 2011 03:32 white_horse wrote:On March 07 2011 03:15 frodoguy wrote:On March 07 2011 03:00 white_horse wrote:On March 07 2011 02:25 frodoguy wrote:On March 07 2011 02:20 white_horse wrote: um, your comparison is kind of inaccurate. The reason why Korean society is so hardcore against illegal things is not nationalism, its simply because its a more conservative culture than the west and confucian values still affect a lot of aspects of Korean society.
Well they do get reallly sensitive and flaming over stuff that is negative towards their country. But for whatever reason, they are just sensitive to the extreme, like to the extent where it bypasses rationality and thats really all im concerned about. They don't believe in second chances, for whatever the circumstances koreans being sensitive about korea as a country is a totally different issue...to outsiders that wonder why koreans are so defensive about their country, its because koreans suffered a lot in the past because china and japan invaded their country many times and it was through national unity and national defense that helped keep korea exist as a country...so koreans have been always been programmed to respond to any kind of encroachment to their country with fire. I see it as a just social thing; they see criticism of their country as an attack, which is why they are really sensitive to that kind of stuff. You can see similar cases in countries that have been invaded a lot, like ireland or israel. . Yeah that might be the reason, might be. But that doesn't really justify anything. Give me a reason why i should agree with this coach's rage and also korean's sensitivity. No matter how i think about it, i just can't agree to any extent what the coach tweeted. I never said I agreed with what the coach said. In fact, I think what he said was out of line. But Korea being very sensitive relative to other countries stems from cultural and historical differences, and if an outsider fails to understand that, then he/she is just being ignorant. This is why thoroughly understanding a different culture is so important when commenting about them so one doesn't look like total dumbass. I guarentee you there are chinese and japanese people who think koreans are high strung and uptight for no reason when the irony is that china and japan played extremely negative roles in Korean history and are part of the reason why korea's social personality is different from other countries. Its one thing to understand, but another to consider whether or not it is right or wrong. And thats what i wanna know. I understand them alright, but the sensitivity feels disgustingly wrong. ok...you think the sensitivity is wrong but in korea no one thinks its wrong because they happen to think differently than you. Your opinion is based on (I assume) western viewpoint so I have nothing more to say other than repeat that its a cultural difference. So ur average joe in korea thinks this is acceptable? you keep talking like its shocking and wrong that koreans are so hard-handed about something like this but I wrote like 3 times already that its simply a cultural difference. You don't think asian countries consider certain aspects of western culture as wrong/weird? And like I said before, a lot of people in the industry were very very disappointed about savior. Its a universal thing that people of high status are expected to have good character but its especially true in korea. And its true that savior damaged the reputation and scale of the industry in korea. You would expect that someone like him would work to make e-sports bigger but he did the exact opposite. sensitivity issues aside, I think people are just really angry and really disappointed about him because of what he has caused, not just the fact that he fixed matches. Wow, that went really offtopic before i realised. The real question is when are koreans gonna let go of the past, which is the most mature and natural thing to do. Its a shame it happened, but having a forever grudge is just childish.
You need to put perspective into what you think. If you even knew how badly Korea had been abused in the past you wouldn't call the "grudges" as "childish". It doesn't help with the fact that koreans feel that china, japan, north korea, etc. have not been as remorseful as they should have been. Staying more on topic, the match-fixing scandal isn't even that old. It's not like savior went into hiding for 5 years and then reappeared. People are still angry about it.
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-edit- nvm let's not start a sc2 discussion.
It would be hard for Savior to come back. If it's really true that there isn't much money in esports after 30, then he should go to uni, look for a career that suits his best interest, and play BW for fun. He shouldn't have any backlash for playing for fun. What he did to the BW community was well deserving of his sentence, but not being able to come back to the pro scene should be enough punishment in itself.
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I personally find it hard to believe that everyone in the korean scene pre-savior would have been behaving completely ethically. The reason being that this kind of match fixing seems like it would have been so easy to pull off. Kespa's modification of their policy for announcing lineups undoubtedly helps, but even so, there must be a number of people with a pretty good idea who is going to be playing on any one day.
Match fixing comes up all the time in soccer (for instance), and I guarantee you that requires a far greater number of people involved. That, and korean bw teams far more closed and secretive about their inner workings than most professional teams. The thing I find most difficult to believe, is that the majority of people blamed for the match fixing were players. I do not have much to back this point of view, but I would not be at all surprised if there were many other coaches, referees, sponsors ect. that played a role only to let the far easier targets of the players take the fall.
I am not be any means claiming Savior was not involved in such activity, he almost certainly was. What I am saying is that I expect that many others who were not ratted out probably were as well, and ultimately i would point my finger at KESPA as the root cause for not doing enough prevent it.
I also regret that I only began following the scene to see Savior downward spiral. I would love to have seen him play in his period of dominance.
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Erasing all his achievements and banning him from ever participating again is the right thing. If e-sports are to be handled in the same fashion as any sport then you shouldnt expect anything less.
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On March 07 2011 06:58 sheaRZerg wrote: I personally find it hard to believe that everyone in the korean scene pre-savior would have been behaving completely ethically. The reason being that this kind of match fixing seems like it would have been so easy to pull off. Kespa's modification of their policy for announcing lineups undoubtedly helps, but even so, there must be a number of people with a pretty good idea who is going to be playing on any one day.
Match fixing comes up all the time in soccer (for instance), and I guarantee you that requires a far greater number of people involved. That, and korean bw teams far more closed and secretive about their inner workings than most professional teams. The thing I find most difficult to believe, is that the majority of people blamed for the match fixing were players. I do not have much to back this point of view, but I would not be at all surprised if there were many other coaches, referees, sponsors ect. that played a role only to let the far easier targets of the players take the fall.
I am not be any means claiming Savior was not involved in such activity, he almost certainly was. What I am saying is that I expect that many others who were not ratted out probably were as well, and ultimately i would point my finger at KESPA as the root cause for not doing enough prevent it.
I also regret that I only began following the scene to see Savior downward spiral. I would love to have seen him play in his period of dominance.
They didn't. During the investigations for the Savior scandal, the journalists referred to players utilizing new methods to cheat and throw games since KeSPA officials were able to tell thrown games from legit losses since that had already happeded before. Previous scandals were probably either shut down or not given any credit since no big names were involved. The whole BW scene should be looked at as sports entertainment, not as something where death crimes are committed.
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On March 07 2011 07:14 r33k wrote:
They didn't. During the investigations for the Savior scandal, the journalists referred to players utilizing new methods to cheat and throw games since KeSPA officials were able to tell thrown games from legit losses since that had already happeded before. Previous scandals were probably either shut down or not given any credit since no big names were involved. The whole BW scene should be looked at as sports entertainment, not as something where death crimes are committed.
I apologize for my lack of knowledge, but what exactly were these "new methods" ? What I recall from reading about the scandel was that it was that players were either being told to throw a game (i.e. intentionally run your army into a tank line) for a cut in whatever the deal was, or the sharing of the build that a players teammate was supposed to do (i.e. watch out for a 2 Fac, wink wink.)
Neither of these seem particularly creative, though I would admit it neither is something that you would immediately catch.
Edit: Relevant question for someone more familiar with Korean culture than I:
Are there instances of similarly harsh reactions to betting cheating in other Korean sports. Baseball or soccer for instance? The reaction always seemed overboard to me, but if this is just the way Korea handles things in similar instances, then i guess it would not be unprecidented.
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On March 07 2011 07:28 sheaRZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 07:14 r33k wrote:
They didn't. During the investigations for the Savior scandal, the journalists referred to players utilizing new methods to cheat and throw games since KeSPA officials were able to tell thrown games from legit losses since that had already happeded before. Previous scandals were probably either shut down or not given any credit since no big names were involved. The whole BW scene should be looked at as sports entertainment, not as something where death crimes are committed. I apologize for my lack of knowledge, but what exactly were these "new methods" ? What I recall from reading about the scandel was that it was that players were either being told to throw a game (i.e. intentionally run your army into a tank line) for a cut in whatever the deal was, or the sharing of the build that a players teammate was supposed to do (i.e. watch out for a 2 Fac, wink wink.) Neither of these seem particularly creative, though I would admit it neither is something that you would immediately catch. Edit: Relevant question for someone more familiar with Korean culture than I: Are there instances of similarly harsh reactions to betting cheating in other Korean sports. Baseball or soccer for instance? The reaction always seemed overboard to me, but if this is just the way Korea handles things in similar instances, then i guess it would not be unprecidented. Gambling is illegal in South Korea, with a few exceptions related to tourism. Korean citizens aren't even supposed to gamble if they visit other countries.
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