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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content.
You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical.
Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. |
Seriously, is it really necessary to fuel this kind of attitude towards (im)balance in the community even more? Imbatalk on forums is already horrible as it is.
Let's say that there isn't much wrong that was said in the actual show (I may disagree with some things but I can't argue against the combined skill and experience of Artosis/Idra). Still, when such high profile community members make a show about imbalance, the actual community is going to start running rampant with imbatalk of all sorts.
On the other hand, I'm really not sure what they want to accomplish with this show to begin with. I honestly can't see that the format and content of the show helps anybody or contributes anything, nor is it the kind of show you can watch/listen to casually for information and entertainment (sotg-like). What sort of audience is this intended for in the first place?
To tldr, it's not my cup of tea and I can't see anything good coming out of it. But each to his own, I suppose.
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On February 04 2011 07:17 Talin wrote:
Seriously, is it really necessary to fuel this kind of attitude towards (im)balance in the community even more? Imbatalk on forums is already horrible as it is.
Let's say that there isn't much wrong that was said in the actual show (I may disagree with some things but I can't argue against the combined skill and experience of Artosis/Idra). Still, when such high profile community members make a show about imbalance, the actual community is going to start running rampant with imbatalk of all sorts.
On the other hand, I'm really not sure what they want to accomplish with this show to begin with. I honestly can't see that the format and content of the show helps anybody or contributes anything, nor is it the kind of show you can watch/listen to casually for information and entertainment (sotg-like). What sort of audience is this intended for in the first place?
To tldr, it's not my cup of tea and I can't see anything good coming out of it. But each to his own, I suppose.
Honestly, this has already been going on with isolated comments from pro gamers remarking about one thing or another. You might as well throw a few of them in the same room and have them actually discuss it rather than having people post a few out of context remarks or sentences here and there and arguing about that.
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On February 04 2011 07:13 Druzal wrote:
Suggestions:
End the show with comments on possible ways to FIX the imbalance, otherwise you're just complaining. Would removing the range upgrade and lowering the max range improve the situation? Lowering hp/shields? Lowering damage but adding extra damage vs light? Would you need to buff other units to compensate?
I agree! giving some ways to fix the imbalance would be great.
i personally like ur idea of lowering damage and adding xtra dmg to light. this (in theory) would mean hydras and lings still get roasted, but roaches do much better. with an army that is more roach intensive, there could be more variety with airplay or immortals coming into the fray with the collossi. this way teh collossi will just be support units and not the meat of ur army like it is now.
Im probably incredibly wrong, but im no pro, so those are my thoughts.
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On February 04 2011 07:16 MorroW wrote:
something they could do for the future is record a few clips of the things they bring up. for example a colosus battle vs zerg where zerg kills all colosus and remaxes up again. it would help deliver the msg better than just explaining everything with words
I also agree with this, though that would take lots of work
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Uh-oh. This could go really well, or really, really badly.
Seems like the latter.
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Enjoyed the show, but I do think they are a bit biased, which is only natural of course.
What I dont understand is that they didnt wait with this show after we saw the impact of the new GSL maps, and the removal of bad maps like SoW and DQ. Maybe these maps will completely change the balance of the game and some things they consider imba will be perfectly fine. I think it would have been better if they postponed this until we have good maps and then the balance can be tweaked further. Imo
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Haha i must say I love seeing the banhammer for people typing Lol  pretty funny.
But I must say I like this innitiative! I already send a message to them about terran mech vs protoss. I hope they will discuss it, alot of abuse there if played right :D!!
The collosi thing btw, I think they are right but must say that collosi kinda die to vast in PvT. Vikings are beasts against them, thats why I like that corruptors are a bit easier to play against if you use collosi. Me myself btw I play HT + DT don't touch collosi that much in PvZ (altough lately I've been enjoying it more) !! Keep up the good work Artosis and Idra!! I HOPE TO HEAR MY NAME and my awesome view on PvT in your next show :DD:D
LOVE AND HUGS
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I haven't read really any of the other posts in this thread, but I'm just gonna respond blankly to what was said in the video. I have to admit, even as a Protoss player, what they said had a lot of merit. To some degree, it feels like Collosi are to PvZ what Banshees can be in PvT: the unit you always have to keep in mind. The only difference is that Collosi are used more often in a standard army (meaning: not mostly as harassment). I believe though that the problem lies more in the lack of a Zerg response, rather than the unit is too strong.
The Collosi can't be realistically nerfed without drastically changing the PvT matchup, without additional changes to another unit (Stalker, perhaps?) I believe making Corruptors more viable would be a stronger way to change the balance. As they are right now, the Corruptor niche is a bit too narrow, it is only realistically brought out to hit massive air units or be made into Broodlords. Since the only massive "air" unit that sees a lot of use is the Collosi, Corruptors don't fit well in a normal Zerg army (unlike Terran, where Vikings are useful regardless for vision, anti range, or occasionally, harassment).
In that regard, I'd like to see Corruptors have some sort of change, whether it is a cost decrease, build time decrease, range increase, or even a change to their ability (I dunno, maybe a stacking debuff that can be applied multiple times from different Corruptors?). Either way, something has to change, since Collosi are a bit strong, and Collosi-Phoenix builds I feel might be breaking into the realm of "overpowered" vs Zerg.
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It would probably be super good for the community to talk about things that are perceived as imba but are not.
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Some players here want to make imbalance discussions into some sort of tabu, that's unfortunately.
Claiming imbalance in every discussion as the one reason for defeat/victory is a problem.
Discussing possible imbalances and solutions to these isn't a problem, if it's in a specific thread, like this one.
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The show is awesome, I'd like you to invite John so you could invite some koreans to join in :D
Anyway, I think that Colossus is fine, it just requires a good counter, and I think that void ray and viking are good enough counters, but I am not sold on Corruptors though. If only corruptors could use its spell from the start...
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Thanks Artosis and Idra. As taboo as the word "imbalance" is among pro players, it's good to see them take a step back and try to look at the game as objectively as possible and analyze the current situation. Even though everyone has a little bias, I think that this show will start to open up a constructive view at balance, as long as their reputations don't mar peoples' view of the show before they even see the content... And at least they are recognizing in the very first episode, the different contributions to balance and how gray it can be, rather than black or white as many people might suggest :-p
Something like this is very needed, but it is a shame, logistically speaking, that they can't have other gamers on for discussion, as this would be a PERFECT avenue for Blizzard to get some amazing feedback for further patches. These two, regardless, are still very top notch, and I'm glad they are taking off with this. Looking forward to further episodes! Many of the remarks made, I felt were accurate and right on the money. 4/5 Stars :D
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It's hard interpeting this really. If we turn the coin to look at the zerg. Hydras is basically the same units as the colossus in the zerg arsenal. However, issue is that colossus is can always hit the zerg army while hydras is forcefielded out and are unable too.
I guess this is what Artosis started to realize as the episode progressed. The zerg army isn't bad in anyway, it's just the areas where the fighting occurs are just bad for the protoss. Now if we go back to issue, is the colossus too good or should any other units be buffed to counteract with the colossus? Well, the Artosis and Idra answer themselves, "maybe it's just about knowing how much corruptors you should make." Maybe so, but making 1 corruptor more than what is optimal isn't game ending, regardless of what Idra or any other zerg player might say.
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SoCal8907 Posts
i loved the video, guys. excellent points. this is precisely how i wish the community engaged in discussion over balance and strategy..you know..with logic and evidence.
here's my 2 cents on colossi in ZvP from the zerg standpoint.
its all about the zerglings and how you engage. why? because you accomplish 3 things.
1) forcefields will be wasted to prevent surrounds by the lings, and less can be used to split up your army. this is a fact because the ball will be focussed on the lings thanks to the AI. this also means..
2) zerglings function much like broodlings from broodlords - they take the attention from your ranged damage dealers force the protoss to take them out (esp if we're talking cracklings) due to how the AI functions. without INSANE micro, it'll be hard to get your stalkers to focus the corruptors, focus the roaches/hydras, etc and same goes for the colossi. zealots eat them, but even if lings stay alive long enough to buffer your roaches and hydras to take down the zealots, the stalkers and colossi are left naked. now, youre REALLY testing your opponents unit composition.
3) zerglings dont give a damn about a concave. that makes the colossus' splash damage (which is 2 attacks in a STRAIGHT LINE). once you break through the zealot wall, all thats left are stalkers and colossi both of which do not like zergling surrounds but a-moving the lings even if FF'd means that the protoss ball is attacking the lings, not your damage dealers.
the other thing i recommend is 2 or 3 corruptors for each colossus, and using the corruptors to focus them down much like you would with a carrier during the engagement WITH your ground army AND via flank.
this means the stalkers have 2 choices - 1) pray the colossi survive long enough to hold off the meat of your army. 2) stop dealing damage to save the colossi and allow you to get some free hits on the colossi.
either way, corruptors are the best response because you can bet that your opponent will be making even more stalkers the next time around..and what counters stalkers? zerglings. and what's even better than zerglings against armored units such as stalkers and colossi? ultras.
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Can I get an official statement for how often these videos will be out? I'd like to know when I can expect more 
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I haven't read all of the responses in this thread, however I think people should give both Idra and Artosis a break. Yes, you can indeed tell that is it brought from mostly a zerg point of view, but they're actually giving solid bases for what they're saying, and it's only logical that they talk about what they know best. All in all, I think this was a really good show, and I hope there will be more. Idra and Artosis, really good job, I hope you'll keep it up!
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Fast tech to Ultras, get 1-2 and just have them run over the forcefields :>
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I liked the episode, I thought they were obviously trying hard to look at it from multiple angles. I think that if they'd get more into it (and with some actually useful community input) this could at least make for saner balance discussion than elsewhere. Of course more experienced input from other angles would be even more awesome, but there's the logistics of the thing and you've got to start somewhere.
It will be interesting to see which way this evolves. I personally hope to see unit discussions like this as well as things like maps (what's good, what's bad) and perhaps specific strategies, though those may be hard because as they state counters do take some time to evolve as well. Plus it's such nice and flammable content and usually tied with the units anyways, but just throwing it out there!
Note btw that they don't actually draw a conclusion, so they're in fact not proclaiming any imbalance (as of yet  ). Just looking at the issues and what changes'd do to the difference matchups, I like it, altough I'm a bit bummed that I don't get to see Artosis with a big red IMBALANCED stamp at the end of each episode.
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Trying to think of topics for them, and I gotta ask: are there any zerg units that feel imbalanced? I'm serious, with terran people keep complaining about MULEs and PFs and such. With Protoss there's colossus and force field.
But what do zerg have? Mutalisks? Banelings? I've never hear anyone say Ultralisks or Infestors are OP...
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I think the show is great. It's not just players qq'ing about how certain things are over-powered. They actually do a pretty good job of going in to why things were patched and what may need to be patched. Very nicely done.
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It's great to see experts players comment balance in a somewhat neutral way (as neutral as you can get imo). As far as I can tell this is absolutely exceptional analysis
The only complaint I can give is the format. It's basically 30 minutes of two dudes looking into a camera from a sofa. Maybe you could add some footage etc to mix it up? Basically show me why this should be a video instead of a podcast!
In this episode that would for example be some footage of corruptors failing vs collossi where vikings would succeed just as you pointed that out. Sure it would lead to more workload, maybe you should get a third member to help adding in some more production of the kind I mentioned?
Great show, I hope you keep up the quality discussion and I sure hope it gets angled not only to actual imbalance, but also on how to cope with perceived imbalance and show how to cope with it!
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Colossus, the back up plan if four gate fails.
User was warned for this post
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EPT
